Trust has to be earned, it is not an entitlement. As you can see with your H, your trust was misplaced. He is untrustworthy. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide. Affording unwarranted trust to an untrustworthy person will not help him become trustworthy, it will only make it worse.

It is not lack of trust that ruins marriages, but lack of BOUNDARIES. And yes, I do still monitor my H sometimes. And he monitors ME. We have complete and total transparency so that neither has the opportunity to conduct the secret second life necessary to conduct an affair.

If you care about saving your marriage you WILL SNOOP because if there ARE problems you would have an opportunity to solve the problem. If you don't know what the problem IS, you can't solve it.

Dr. Harley, clinical psychologist and author of Surviving an Affair:

"For an unfaithful spouse to engage in an affair without detection, two separate lives must be created, one for the lover and one for the spouse. A certain amount of dishonesty is required in both of them, but the major deception is with the spouse.

So one of the most common clues of an affair is an unwillingness to let a spouse investigate all aspects of life. If two lives are necessary for an affair, and if a spouse is curious enough, the secret second life is relatively easy to discover. Difficulty in getting a spouse to talk about events of the day can be a sign of trying to hide the second life.

One of the most common smoke-screens used by unfaithful spouses is to express shock that their spouse would be so distrusting as to ask questions about their secret second life. They try to make it seem as if such questions are an affront to their dignity, and a sign of incredible disrespect. They figure that the best defense is a good offense, and so they try to make their spouses feel guilty about asking too many questions.

I am a firm believer in letting each spouse do as much snooping around as they want. Nothing should be kept secret in marriage, and no questions should be left unanswered. If a spouse objects to such scrutiny, what might he or she be hiding?" Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?

I'm really sorry you're having to suffer through this. I understand how you feel, because I could have written the above almost word for word.

I hope this isn't enough to be a t/j, but here's a little background so you'll know why I sympathize with you.

My wife had a 4-day reunion and sweet little chat fest with her ex lover/boyfriend/fiance from 24 years ago, in which she told him she still thinks of him and that she had prayed they would run into each other like the lovers in the Dan Fogelberg song "Same Old Lang Syne." Lots of other sickening junk from her and much worse from him, like that he had thought of her every year on her birthday.

On D-day, she hatefully told me it was none of my business, that it was between them and she would end it when she felt like it, and that I wasn't going to control her anymore and tell her what to do. She also told me she had thought of him and prayed for him every year on his birthday, also. Yeah, more to over.

Her excuse was that she had unfinished business and had felt a need to apologize to him for 20 years. Like I give a rat's...

At our MC session yesterday, my wife screamed like a crazy woman, "I did not betray you! I was not unfaithful!" She's been saying (screaming, spitting, spewing) the same thing for 14 months. To say the least, it makes it very hard to forgive and try to recover when there is no remorse from the WS.

Probably like you Mrs9405, it makes me wonder to what depths she would have to go to consider that she had betrayed me.

Anyway, a few minutes later, the MC said that going outside of your marriage and having any kind of emotionally charged contact with anyone of the opposite sex, especially a former lover, is unquestionably a "betrayal of trust", regardless of whether there was romantic intent or not. Well, of course, anybody knows that, right? Apparently not my WW or your WH.

My wife sarcastically said "So, chalk up another one who thinks I betrayed you." We have had four counselors, our pastor and her father say it was unfaithfulness in no uncertain terms and to her face. Still she refuses to acknowledge the depth and true nature of what she did. Only that she's sorry for hurting me. Now, she would do it all over again because there's nothing wrong with it, but she's really sorry.

You had it worse than me apparently, with it being long term and him actually saying he loved her. Still, I think I understand a little of how you feel.

Just wanted to add that I got almost all of this nearly word for word, also. Plus, if I thought she had done anything wrong, I needed a psychiatrist. I've since learned that's another favorite in the fog babble lexicon. Gaslighting, I think it's called

Amazing how almost all the waywards read from the same script.

No, this is the only marriage for both of us. We were both very single when we met. Most of his former relationships ended pretty amicably.

It is rather amazing how very cliche it all is. My husband prides himself on being extraordinary, not average or mediocre. Always tested off the charts in school; when to a top graduate school; etc. So for him to do something so common just seems to inconsistent with how he sees himself, let alone how I see him.

I don't know whether it is makes me feel better or worse to know just how common a problem it is. The whole situation makes me feel sleazy.

Does your wife say she wants to stay in the marriage? Do you feel that the counseling has been at all effective?

Those that have nothing to hide, hide nothing.

It sounds as if arrogance is one of his character shortcomings? Does he believe he is perfect?

Fortunately, I am sure she really does want to stay in the marriage. We have had a deep and strong love for each other in the past. As usual, neglect on both sides, the cares of life, etc., made us drift apart. She eventually grew bitter and hated me because I didn't meet her ideal. That was the atmosphere in our marriage when the EA happened.

The wounds we have inflicted on each other during this ordeal have stretched our anti-divorce commitment to the breaking point. There have been many days when I didn't think we were going to make it. At the moment, I'm cautiously hopeful.

Counseling has been a mixed bag. The first one was incompetent. The second helped a lot, but he was not a licensed counselor specializing in marriage therapy. More of a biblical counselor who focused on the spiritual side. He helped us at first, but he took us as far as he could in 5 months. We were too tough a nut to crack and it ended up with me feeling worse than when we started. The third was more of the same, except he took my wife's side and rolled his eyes (literally, but he thought I didn't see him) when I told him my side of the story. I dropped him after the 3rd session, which was two sessions too late.

We are now on our 4th, and I am very hopeful about him after 2 sessions. Very pro-marriage and passionate about helping couples heal and is a veteran of counseling couples dealing with infidelity. Despite my wife's outburst I described earlier, that session the other day dug really deep into us emotionally and opened up the festering boil to the sunlight.

I like the idea of a flesh and blood counselor I can look in the eyes. But many here swear the Harleys are pretty much the only competent marriage counselors in America. I'm thinking about it, but I can't get over the price tag and the idea of counseling over the phone.

Maybe you should try explaining to your husband that "consummating" things has nothing to do with it. How would he feel if you went out and had an only sex affair? It would hurt him tremendously. Just like an EA hurts a woman more than a PA due to the fact that women are more emotionally oriented. Guys are the opposite. So he sees no big deal, and for you it is probably worse than a PA.

My DH also had "genius" stamped on his head. All that did was to make him feel entitled throughout his life. I bet admiration is a top need of your WH.


No remorse. No wonder you can't move forward. If he can't take responsibility for the consequences of his actions(your pain from his A) how can you R?

He's very foggy and justifies his actions...sounds sketchy. Either he's a pompous @&& and will never accept responsibility because then he would be fallible OR he's still in contact.

Keep snooping.

Well, no offense to the Harleys, but certainly there are other excellent marriage counselors in the country. And I agree with you -- I think it's important to sit in a room, face to face, with your counselor. (I say this as someone who has had a lot of therapy, from many different types of therapists.)

Body language is important. And connecting with your counselor is important. The one we're seeing is wonderful -- she's very smart, she really pays attention, she gives us good homework assignments to do, and she's incredibly insightful. The fact that she asked to see my husband for some solo sessions really shows how much she gets it. He's been the unhappy one who had to go outside the marriage for fulfillment. (In other words, he's the f'd up one.)

Sometimes I think that I don't care what the reasons are anymore. I can be very understanding, and I can even (almost) have sympathy for my husband and what he's been going through, but then I get to a point where I just don't care. I don't care what the reasons are. I don't want to work on it anymore. I just want out, want to start my life over.

But then I feel like a quitter. We've been together for nine years, and we're married, and we planned to spend our lives together, and how do you just walk away from that? And then how can you ever have another relationship again? Jeez, the thought of dating literally makes me ill.

It sounds like you're sort of in the same boat, I guess. Both our spouses insist that they want to stay in the marriage. It would be easier if they didn't, wouldn't it? Get a divorce, walk away, and no more therapy or "trying."

I hear this a lot, but I'm not convinced that men aren't hurt by the emotional part, too.

Maybe I'm more of an emotional guy. Not in a girly, wimpy way hopefully, more like passionate and feeling things deeply. I love with all my heart and I also grieve with all my heart. I think there are many more out there like me.

My wife's contact with her ex floored me emotionally, rocked my world. The heartache has been almost unbearable. Granted, if she had sex with him or some other guy, it would have hurt worse. I don't know if our marriage would have survived.

But make no mistake, men are hurt terribly by EAs.

Yeah, a lot of the long-time posters here are MB/Harley zealots because it has worked for them and, of course, thousands of others. I respect them for their experience and viewpoint. Nothing is foolproof, however. Just read Mike_C2's thread. He was MBing his marriage for several years, even counseling with the Harleys I think, and it didn't keep his wife from going wayward. His isn't the only story like that.

I'm a believer in most of Harley's principles and I hope I can get my wife on board as well. I admit I'm new to therapy and counseling, so I don't pretend to know it all. I am certainly new to this infidelity business.

Don't give up, Mrs9405. Don't make decisions based on your feelings right now. Recovery is a roller coaster. Is your husband committed to counseling and recovery?

Well, he says he's committed, but I don't know what that means anymore. We started marriage counseling before I even knew about his affair, so really, how committed could he have been to working on the marriage if he was simultaneously carrying on with his fantasy girlfriend?

I purchased spyware software to install on his computer today. I haven't installed it yet (I'm waiting for him to leave the house), but I feel absolutely sick to my stomach about it.

People have said that I have no reason to feel ashamed of the snooping, but I can't help it. I don't understand how our relationship has deteriorated to the point where I'm purchasing spy software to read his emails. If clandestine operations are necessary, I can't help wondering whether it's a marriage worth saving. It certainly isn't the life I envisioned for myself.

Mrs9045, I suspect you have just not thought this through carefully. Feelings of shame are not rational when you have done nothing wrong.

See, it is BAD to cheat and lie. It is not BAD to catch someone cheating and lying. It is a VIRTUE. It is a virtue because a) you have an obligation to protect yourself and b) if someone is withholding the truth from you, you cannot solve the problem - if you know the truth, you at least have a chance.

Do you think it is "DIRTY" when the police spy on drug dealers and bust them? Or do you think it is "DIRTY" to deal drugs?

Melody, I think maybe that's what eating at her. She's trying to wrap her mind around the fact she woke up one day to learn she was married to a "drug dealer." Now, she's having to play police investigator to her husband. Going undercover to nab bad guys is a nasty business. To have to imagine your spouse, whom you thought you could trust with your heart, as a bad guy and now you have to use covert warfare against them is unsettling, to say the least.

Is that anywhere near accurate, Mrs9405?

otter, the mistake that people make is blindly trusting their spouse in the first place. It is an unreasonable expectation to expect someone to always be 100% trustworthy. Not even Dr. Harley blindly trusts his own wife even though she has never cheated.

If every one did a little snooping, I predict many affairs would be avoided in the first place. So, drug dealer or not, it is still a virtue, not a shameful act.

I understand that its not fun to snoop, but it is unreasonable to assign "shame" to an activity that is not shameful. If a little snooping serves to head off an affair, it can only be viewed as a positive. I think its important to use reason and not feelings.

Oh, I agree Melody, she needs to snoop like a bandit. He shouldn't be trusted at this point. As you say, no one should be blindly trusted, not even ourselves. I think that is what horrifies and shakes the foundation of so many BSs - the realization that I really can't trust my partner completely. It is earth-shattering for the innocent and uninitiated. I was just trying to empathize with her shock of having to do it.

Yes, you summarize it perfectly. It's been almost a year, and although I don't break down about it every day, or even every week, I still feel shocked sometimes. I can't quite believe this happened to me. I can't believe that my husband did this.

And I do question what my snooping says about our relationship. Trust is supposed to be a two-way street. I should be able to trust him, but he should also be able to trust me.

When we first moved in together, I kept a journal. I asked him if it would be a problem for him. Would he be tempted to read it? Would I need to hide it from him? There was nothing in the journal that was illicit, but I still felt that it was my private place to record my thoughts and feelings, and I hated the idea of him reading it.

He assured me that I could trust him not to read it, and that I would not need to hide it from him. I believed him and felt comfortable leaving it in my nightstand drawer, without having to go to extreme measures to hide it.

So now I feel in some ways that this is the same issue. Shouldn't he be able to trust me about respecting his privacy? He has email exchanges with his friends; there is nothing illicit about them, but still, shouldn't they be private? Are they really any of my business? Is a married couple allowed to have any privacy at all?

I don't mean dark secrets, and I certainly don't mean affairs, but this concept that we have no privacy at all really bothers me. I have telephone conversations with my friends and family that are private -- not because I'm doing anything wrong, but because maybe they are confiding something private in me, something they don't want anyone else to know. Heck, two weeks ago, a girlfriend told me she was pregnant, and she and her husband weren't going to tell anyone until the second trimester, and she asked me to not tell anyone, not even my husband. Would he have a right to know about that conversation?

I just find this whole process incredibly unsettling. I hate the thought of monitoring my husband, spying on him, assuming he is misbehaving. I don't want to be his mother; I want to be his wife.

Surely I can't be the only one who has a problem with this.