Ahhh, here are the real problems.
1. Sex is bad.
2. Sex is demeanning, even if it has apositive outcome
3. Real men treat women like crap(that's why they all want the "bad boy"). So if he doen't treat me like crap, he must not be a real man.
4. I never have to do anything I'm not "in the mood" for
5. I want intimacy but can't risk being vulnerable.


What kind of CRAP is this and why do women get it into their heads? I'm not disagreeing that these reasons are being used, but asking how is it that it has come to this. I do understand #6 and that is a whole different beast that I am thankful that I don't have to deal with.




Perhaps this is the most basic question then, I understand that partner duress may not initiate change. But if trying to save a marriage/family is not motivation enough, what is?



Being willing to be manipulated by my wife is not exactly what I was referring to, but i see your point. I guess being "nice" also gives me the insane idea that things could be great for everyone and that a Win-Win situation is possible. I was assuming the power to be used to get what she wants. I get what I want, she gets what she wants. Life is wonderful and everyone gets what they want.

Not denying that any of this can be true at times or even all at once, depending upon the woman.

On the other hand, a woman can jump in the sack 4 out of 5 times but that 5th time she is too tired, she's "withholding SF"

Whoever said you don't get us, we don't get you, hit the nail on the head. The more important question is, what to do about it?

I think there are obvious cognitive distortions on both sides of the debate. Our brains work differently, but there are some similarities. Sex debate really highlights differences.

There are only two ways to change the way you feel: change the way you think or change the way you behave. Either way (or both combined), it's your responsibility.

I agree... and this is the basic issue at hand.

People here have gotten off track, IMO, about the purpose of this thread. My purpose, in posting these articles, was to help women to understand that SF is NOT a simple 5 minute act pressed by men solely to 'get their rocks off'. It is much more complex than that, and realistically, in a VERY GOOD way.

Women speak about "being used" or "shouldn't have to if I don't feel like it" are shorting themselves, and certainly shorting their relationships with this attitude. I also believe, some women use these 'excuses' to punish their husbands, forcing a different behavior or 'no sex for you'. Still with the idea that all this is just a 5 minute man physical need at a woman's detriment.

If you think about it ladies, if you BELIEVE that most men feel this way (probably whether they realize it themselves or not) then if instead of looking at sex as 'merely being used', and change that initial thought into, 'fulfilling one of my husbands basic and most important NEEDS... one in which he develops more LOVE and closeness with me.' then perhaps, it would make the times when you are not 'thrilled' to be having sex, much more palatable.

Women (my wife for instance) will spend an hour looking all over town for a 'perfect' card for me. I LOVE it and appreciate it greatly, especially since I understand that it took some thought and time. But... if her GOAL was to show me that she loves me... and bring us closer together, that HOUR could have been split up into two love making sessions, and she would have made a MUCH bigger impact, and in all reality, furthered her goals MUCH MORE than with the card. It is simple importance of the needs being met. While I love he card... I REALLY love HER!

The essence of the articles is to give you a bit of insight into WHAT men feel from Love Making. It is NOT a simple 'wham bamm' issue for most men... some certainly, but not most. And truthfully, men might not even understand it themselves... I consider myself a relatively introspective guy, thinking about motives, etc for most of my actions. I still never really understood this was such a factor in how I felt, even after 39 years of living AS an introspective guy. Men are working on instinct and unrecognized feelings... YOU have some insight into them now... USE it wisely and improve your marriage GREATLY!!!

If men understood these things... I bet it would change the way they view lovemaking themselves. You might print them out and lay them around the house somewherer innocuous... you might get an AH HA!!! moment from him. It would be hard to NOT pick up an article which began... Wives: Why sex is so important...

CFIO, I don't disagree with you, or the articles at all. In fact, this thread, and hearing men like you post their feelings, and reading articles like that, do make it easier for me to overcome those times when I'm simply tired and just want to go to sleep. I go through phases where I'm all 'hot to trot' for days/weeks on end and then phases where I'm just....not. THAT'S the time where it's difficult for me and where H and I get into arguments about SF or he feels bad. I know I can probably do better in that department during my 'off' phases.

But I could use some guy input. How do you POJA something like that? I've tried (even before I knew what POJA was!) and failed. I've suggested we set aside certain regular times for SF (and all the other times would be gravy!) because I am falling asleep on my feet by 10PM and he can easily stay up until 1AM or later. Then in the morning, I'm up and raring to start my day by 6AM and he's dead to the world. I suggested the schedule during our first year of marriage and he blew a gasket and told me SF shouldn't be scheduled.

And in recent years, (past 4 or 5?), he's developed terrible insomnia where he can fall asleep but by 3 or 4AM, he's awake and can't get back to sleep. Guess what he wants to do in order to get back to sleep? And I have a conflicting sleep issue. If something or someone wakes me up in those wee hours (from 3AMish on...), I can't get back to sleep.

So we argue there too.

I have yet another question I'd like to pose to the guys here to get your perspective.

Say a couple has an argument. The argument is full of LBs and DJs on both sides. Later on, the W wants to talk it out but the H doesn't want to rehash it. Still later on, H wants sex but the wife is still angry and feeling hurt.

How does a couple solve this so that the H doesn't feel rejected when he's most likely turning to SF as a means of reconnecting with his wife, and the W doesn't feel just used for SF because she's not been able to talk it out with H and resolve the issues in her mind?

A quandary!

I just googled sex statistics and came up with several articles. The only thing i can say (which i posted in another thread) is most men and most women simply just view sex differently.

Article #1:

How many times a day do you think the average guy thinks "I'd love to have sex with her,"regarding a woman he's never been intimate with and probably doesn't even know?
During a recent informal survey with a variety of men of different ages and from different walks of life, I found the common answer to hover around five. Frankly, I think most tended to underestimate in order to not sound too much like sex starved perverts.
When sharing these results with women, most reacted somewhat violently, with some initially enraged at this illustration of how men really are pigs. "How could men be so shallow, so superficial?" they would demand. "You're talking about women they see on the streets, at work, in school, or wherever, right?" Yes, that's right. "Look," I would reason, "you know men are VERY visual by nature. More so than most women. Why does this seem so weird?"
Regardless of any explanation or rationalization offered, most women seemed irked by this whole concept. Many denied that "their man" would answer that way. No way were their boyfriends or husbands that sick. And they were partially right, the guys wouldn't tend to answer with such a number in their presence. But without their lady's presence, they answered significantly higher.
Here's a hypothetical situation. Joe is walking through a mall and passes a good looking woman. He says to himself, "Nice. She'd be a lot of fun!" He keeps walking, looking for a Christmas present for his fiancee. Behind the make-up counter at Nordstroms he notices a particularly stunning woman, and says to himself, "Now she's delicious. Wow!" Of course he says nothing, just walks on, and doesn't think anything of it.
Many women would be horrified. It wouldn't be unusual for them to say, "How can he think that? He's engaged!! Men are unbelievable!" Yet I ask, is this really so strange? Joe sounds like a pretty typical guy to me. Men constantly evaluate women they see throughout their days on the basis of if they'd like to have sex with them or not.
Men walk into the gym, a party, a concert, some even at church, and unconsciously scan the crowd for the most intriguing women. And it has nothing to do with loving their partner or not. It's habitual, a routine they don't even notice. To men, the thought of what they'd like is entirely different than what they will pursue. And since they usually have no intention of taking any action on their desires, these thoughts seem meaningless and incidental.
However, to a lot of women, when they are in love, their interest in other men often dwindles dramatically. Many women have told me they rarely find themselves attracted to other men once they find someone they're deeply interested in. Because of this, they assume it should be the same for men too. And since it isn't, these very women usually misinterpret the man's wandering eye as a flaw in his character (and it is if he blatantly watches or flirts with other women while in her company).
I find it humorous that quite a few women were shocked and appalled to hear men tell them they thought about being interested in sex with other women at least 5 times a day on average. Those same women, when initially asked the same question, tended to reply with something like, "Maybe one man or two a week, if that. We don't trust men so even when we see a good looking one, our first thought is, I wonder if he's for real, or just another slime-bag." But when pressed, giving them examples of where they may run across men that they didn't know, most of the women admitted to a slightly higher figure, roughly once or twice a day, (this is actually thinking about it, but for heaven's sake not planning on doing it!)
This is once or twice a day they see an unfamiliar man and think to themselves, if everything was different, and I was single and available, and so was he, I'd be interested! Frankly, I believe the number would be much higher for women too if they were more comfortable being honest with such a loaded question. But there's this social taboo for some women to admit they think about sex as much as men do. And the fact that for tons of women, sex is just way more complicated than it is for guys, it's closely interwtined with intimacy and feelings. Not to mention that women aren't always so moved visually and it often takes more than that. For men, it takes one or two good features and ........
Now mind you, most women have a higher set of morals than most men, and usually the idea of random sex doesn't intrigue them as much as men. (And when they do have fantasies, they are often much more detail-oriented, not just the last 2 minutes.) Women tend to be more inclined to add a few more levels of complexity to this, thinking in broader terms such as pursuing a relationship instead of just having their way with them. Anyway, this makes for good conversation the next time you are in a large social gathering. See if men and women that you know are really that far apart on this issue.
Ask around the office, or ask your friends (but not your parents) at the dinner table. How many times a day do they think they'd like to have sex with someone just from looking at them?


Article #2:

Q: My husband and I have very different sex drives. For him, everyday would be great, and twice a day would be greater. For me, once a week, but to accommodate him, I'd have sex twice a week. I don't think I'm abnormal, but he asks, "What's wrong with you?" I say it's normal for a couple to have sex once or twice a week. He says he doesn't care about 'normal', it's not enough for him. He has a point, but everyday and even every other day is too much for me. We've been married almost 20 years and have both built up a lot of resentment towards each other. He, because of the sex, and me, for a whole lot of other marital problems. I never did have a high sex drive, even before we were married. Neither of us know how to solve this problem, but it's a big one.
Thanks,
K
A: Dear K,
I am very glad that you are asking for feedback about your sexual relationship with your husband because the patterns in your marriage are so common that others reading your letter and my response might benefit greatly.
First of all, know that testosterone, one of the hormones responsible for sex drive,is 20-40% more prevalent in men than women. Though it is not always the case, it is very common for men to desire sex more often than their wives. This gender difference often creates problems in marriages, particularly when people blame each other for being different. Men think their wives are passionless and women think their husbands are sex maniacs.
When men and women have substantially different sex drives, something interesting happens. Most women need to feel close to their partners emotionally to desire sex. Women need to spend time with their partners, to communicate on a deep level and feel like they're team mates in regards to housework and kids and so on. All this has to be in place for most women to really desire their men.
Men, on the other hand, generally need to feel close to their partners physically before they invest a great deal of energy into their relationships. So she's waiting for him to be more intimate emotionally and he's waiting for her to be more tuned into him physically and the resentment that results in this waiting game is so huge, it's beyond belief.
That being said, it's really important for both of you to become more understanding of each other. This means you both need to try to imagine what it would be like to live in each others shoes for a while. He probably walks around feeling that if you loved him more, you would be more sensitive to his needs. He undoubtedly feels hurt and rejected and might even question his sex appeal.
You probably feel that if he loved more, he would be satisfied having sex once or twice a week. He would also be more responsive to the other issues concerning you in your marriage that you alluded to in your message. You also probably walk around feeling bad that he never seems satisfied, that no matter what you do, he's always unhappy. This isn't a pleasant feeling when you love your partner.
Since I don't have his ear, I'll direct my advice towards you. Here are some ways to make him feel better about your sexual relationship:
1. Flirt with him
Do you remember the early part of your relationhip? Even though you were never highly sexed, didn't you flirt more in the beginning, pat him on the butt, tell him he looks great, and so on. This makes a difference.
2. Put other things aside and make time.
Sometimes, women place too much priority on everything else they have to do and make their sexual relationships last on their lists. Examine if this is true for you. If so, other things can wait. Your marriage can be better than ever if you reprioritze your time.
3. Even if you're not in the mood, do it anyway...sometimes
So many women have told me that they can jumpstart their sex drive by just getting started. Once they're into it...they're into it.
4. Consider just pleasing him
If you're really not in the mood for sex, your husband may be satisfied if you do something nice for him once in a while.
5. Discover new ways to rev up your interest.
Let's face it, girl, after so many years of marriage, you might need something new to renew your interest. Cast your inhibitions to the wind and experiment with anything that might intrigue you.
Okay, I can almost hear you saying, "Why do I have to do all the work?" Kathy, just remember that the way to a man's heart is not through his stomach. The more responsive you are to his needs, the more responsive he'll be to you.
I want you to know that I really understand how difficult this has been for you during your 20 years of marriage and I'm proud of you for hanging in there. It says alot about your strength and character (and his too).
Try being a little more receptive to your man and let me know what happens.
Take care,
Michele

I can understand why your H doesn't want to schedule sex, I really wouldn't either. I don't want it to turn into a chore, and I certainly don't want to do it it when she's not into it.

So where's the compromise? Perhaps you can schedule when you want to make your attempts, without letting him know? That way you can know in advance when you want to be ready, but he still gets some spontanity? As well, perhaps it would help if you did something special, like wear something you know he likes? Don't know if that helps, but you asked for suggestions.

As for resolving issues before sex, my wife also doesn't like to discuss issues, she just wants to put it behind her. However, if I start off with an apology, owning my part instead of pushing to be heard first, that will often get her to open up and we can get to a resolution. Unfortunately for me, that isn't going to lead to sex, but it might work for you!

I agree with Still Crazy...we don't get you and you don't get us. It is not a we are right and you are wrong thing...which I am hearing in quite a few posts. When I read "It's too much. It's ever changing. It's vague." What I hear is that it isn't important enough or just not as important as SF...it's too much trouble where as SF is simple so let's go with that one. Of course, I'm not in anyone else's home but my own and I know that I have been very specific with what I need...and yet it is still too whatever to be done. Which makes me feel good enough to have sex with, but not special enough to be loved as I need it.

I think it's also important for men to understand how vulnerable SF can make a lot of women feel. We are truly exposing our insecurities to you, sharing them with you...our physical insecurities as well as our emotional ones. Feeling beautiful and special and cared for outside the bedroom helps me allow myself to be vulnerable inside the bedroom. But, and here's the trick, I want to feel these things because of who I am to my H and not as a means to get me into bed. Treating me this way doesn't have as much meaning if it's just something my H does to get SF...it only reinforces to me that SF is about "getting his rocks off."

And I'm not saying men aren't also allowing themselves to be vulnerable during SF. I would imagine there is a lot of pressure in your mind to be the stud and the Romeo. But isn't getting SF what validates this for you...helps you to allow yourself to be vulnerable? It just not that way for women, or at least for me.


This is exactly what I have done. After years of talking to my H, telling him specifically what I need to feel loved, he still refuses to do it...or only does it once or twice a year. Simple things like calling me during the day to stay connected, planning our dates instead of me, a little note here and there telling me he loves me or that he thinks I am beautiful. I've changed my way of thinking and finally stopped expecting this from him because I was so tired of being disappointed.

I've also changed my behavior in regards to SF. I flirt more, initiate more, wear sexier PJ's, call him up for at home "lunch dates" while the kids are in school, etc. It hasn't had much of an affect on him meeting my needs, but it makes him happy...which helps make our home happy and that's really important for my family.

Again... to change the way you feel, change the way you think and/or behave. It will happen. Why do you choose to feel "used" for SF with your DH? You are so much more than just a vessel to him.

My wife uses this excuse to, but be careful that you examine it very closely and make sure it really applies. Maybe it does. In my case, I have found that if SF happens on a regular basis, going without on a particular occasion doesn't phase me. For example, we had SF on Friday night and o again on Saturday morning( a rarity indeed). Well, Saturday night and all day Sunday she didn't feel like it and i was content just to hold and cuddle. Monday morning, still nothing and I'm beginning to wonder(and by nothing I am referring to all actions, not just the act itself). Monday night, I came on to her (another rarity these days since it usually causes hurt feelings) and got rejected again. Nothing of any major significance in the SF department until the next Saturday. When I bring it up, asking if something is wrong, she blows a gasket and says "I have been really trying all week and it's never enough for you." Huh? I know that is how she feels and her feelings are valid for her, but I don't understand it at all. The kicker was I was really trying to figure out what's wrong because with her, SF level is many times a gauge of relationship. If no SF or even playing around, usually something is wrong.

Back to the point, with a regular steady diet of SF, the occasional "I'm too tired" doesn't phase me. I've often said it's kind of like eating. If you know the food is coming, who cares about one meal or even what's on the menu. When you're starving, anything looks good and there's a famine mentality that makes you very hoardish, worrying about the next meal. The next meal doesn't show, you get nervous. Go without another one, uh oh. Three days in a row, watch out. Ladies, you are the chief chef and waitress of the meal. You decide the menu, arrange the presentation, and decide the meal time. Come on, give us the T-bone steak and quit making us starve.

Well then you completely missed the part apart trying desperately. I have not given up. It is not too much trouble. I know it is extremely important. But I'm facing the realization that it next to impossible to be successful on a regular basis. I will continue try and improve my average though.



Then your husband is a lucky man. I hate that he isn't trying meet yours.

JC,

If you don't mind me asking, how many times a week do you consider a regular basis? And does your wife know this?

Knowing what my H considers a regular basis, since it is different from mine, has helped me meet his need.

I don't have a real 'set' level of fulfillment, there are weeks when I would want more and weeks when less is fine. I don't think there are ANY weeks where none is OK for ME. I would feel unfulfilled with any complete weeks of abstinence. Which makes 'that time of the month' difficult, but I am completely understanding. But... on average, I think that there have been two times in my life where I actually felt 'fulfilled' and had no pressing desire to 'make love'. In that I did not WANT to have sex. Those times were when we were making love consistently and regularly, and we had made love about 3 or 4 times that week. I felt completely at peace, which has been an incredible rarity. I felt no 'pressure' from in me to make love with my wife.

Most of the time, however, this is not the case. We have never been near that since we have been married. And there is a constant 'nagging' feeling of 'wanting her' at all times. This is NOT a good place to be ladies, as much as you might view it as 'keeping him on the edge'. Because THIS is the vulnerable place where with-holding SEEMS like with-holding. Where I 'know' we can have it... but we AREN'T for some reason, and the reason is DEFINITELY not because I don't want to. At those times, it is completely and unabashedly on HER shoulders to say OK.

And ladies... this is another sore point for most men (me) I believe. There is NOTHING, at least for me, better than to feel desired sexually by my wife. To feel important in that way is one of the most tremendous and satisfying sources of love I have ever felt. There have been times when my wife has initiated sex in such a WILLING and DESIROUS manner, that I was on cloud 9 for days. But this is ALSO the problem... I KNOW she can do it... I KNOW she has it in her... I ALSO KNOW she KNOWS that I desire it... and there is a conscious decision to NOT do it.

Ignorance of an issue is one thing. It is simply not knowing... but IGNORING a KNOWN issues is even worse... because it is relayed as a conscious choice to CONSCIOUSLY NOT meet an important need. It is more hurtful and for me... builds much more resentment. (Yes, I know resentment is mine to own.)

So... back to 'how much'... it depends... but I would say that 3 times a week would probably keep me pretty satisfied. However, since I have never 'lived' there... I can't say for certain. Maybe less... this week probably more, because I have alot of new crap going on at work, and coming home and feeling so loved would certainly be beneficial and helpful in allowing me to cope with the things going on at work.

There is NO enough... that can be decided upon in advance though. I wish there was and it would remain 'correct'. But that is just like saying "Listening to me for 20 minutes a night is enough." It might be some weeks... but others you might need an HOUR one night and 30 minutes the next. There is no difference.

I do wish that 'sex' wasn't such a different animal when fulfilling ENs. It is SO different and has such HUGE connotations for each participant that it truly is the source of greatest joy and deepest sorrow, depending on the point of view of the moment. Even THAT is not consistent.

Agree with CFIO. 3 - 4 times a week is plenty. Likewise, on rare occasions I have experienced this. I remember one time a month or so after the D-Day that FWW was awesome with this. Several times in a week, enthusiastic at that. I remember very clearly thinking that this was the way things should be, if not always, then at least more often than not. I also remember thinking towards the end of the week that if SF happened that was okay, but it was no longer a "hunger". I could have done without and had no questions, fears, or resentments.

I should also point out that it's not always the number that's important. It's the enthusiasm and desire. probably more than the quantity. Duty SF every night would do nothing for me. passionate and loving SF a couple of times a week would fill me up. It's also the playfulness of day-to-day interactions, a deep kiss here, a grab there, innuendos in conversation. It does not always have to be full intercourse either. There are numerous other acts of SF that go both ways.

Perhaps Harley needs to come up with a "SF bank" idea similar to that of the love bank.

Deposits - A squeeze,a kiss,sweet nothings whispered in the ear, a flash of skin, a quickie, a massage, candle-lit bath together, showers together, "nookie notes", flattering body comments, etc.

Withdrawals - "I'm too tired", "let me start another load of laundry" (laundry is kind of like the poor, it will always be with us), duty SF, letting me know it's duty SF, poor hygiene, unresponsiveness, unflattering body comments

Can't,


I totally hear you. Everything you wrote about how SF is for you is exactly how affection is for me. And boy was the resentment building up...which was killing me.

This is really the issue ladies... This 'state' of being is probably UNKNOWN to most men, simply because they are constantly 'hungering' for SF with their wives. The pressure which I feel building up is like a Pressure cooker, if you know what they are... As such, if ignored, the pressure builds up and if finally dealt with there is a tremendous release of pressure until a steady state is reached between the 'heat' which represents the husband's innate level of need for SF and the degree (and I will agree with JCP here because it is a degree, not always how often) love making occurs. When men find that level of 'steady state' pressure/release, it can be a wonderful thing. And I would believe that there is little in a man's life which would compare to feeling sexually fulfilled.

I know that when I feel at least 'better' about my sexual needs being met, I am much easier on the world. Things bother me much less. I am much more at ease. I can take issues with much more of a clear head. I enjoy the good times much more and am much more capable of initiating all other aspects of life which move to help my wife. But when I feel sexually frustrated, nothing is easy and most problems are magnified greatly.

I really think that the 'ills' of the world could be significantly improved if all the women of the world improved efforts to provide SF to their husbands. Maybe the UN should look into it... Why not... we have a 'month' for everything else. Why not a "Fulfill your husbands sexual yearnings" month.



Of course it could only occur after

Listen to your wife month.
Bills are paid month.
Conversation should be better month.
Hug and kiss me... don't grope me month.
etc etc etc... month.


(Tongue in cheek of course.)

This is a great article...really great. It speaks volumns of how I feel. And I'm the wife. I could swear that that article was all about me and my feelings around my love life. I'm the one who tends to be a little more 'wanting' in my relationship and many of these things, like feeling rejected et. are how i feel.

What happens when a couple is the exception to 'the rule'??

Like I said Can't, I totally hear you. Replace SF with affection and everything you wrote rings true for me too. I guess that has been my point all along in this thread...my ENs are just as important and have just as a profound affect on me as my H's ENs even though they are not the same.

I also realize it strikes a nerve with me when I hear from men that if their need for SF was being met, they would be more inclined to meet their wives' needs for whatever. Unfortunately, that did not happen in my house, which is probably why it gets to me...and why is it the wife has to saddle up first. No pun intended...although I think it's a good one.

It absolutely ISN'T that women have to 'saddle up' first. It is merely the fact that so many of the people who visit HERE are women, and therefore, are the ONLY ones who are going to have an opportunity to change their marriages. But I hear you.

I think one reason for ME... and I say this with complete humility although it might not sound as such, is that women can put... say 90 minutes a WEEK into their husbands and make him pretty darn happy for the most part. Men... I don't think it is as clear cut for us. At least I don't feel like it in my case. There is NO 'go to' EN filling which does the same for my wife, that SF does for me. I have no 'slam dunk' HUGE EN/Love Bank filler. I can't say... "I am going to make a point of taking 30 minutes, three times this week, no matter what. And devote that to my wife to pump in Love Bank deposits." She might want to talk to me for 10 minutes NOW... then help with supper, but maybe not. Take out the trash today and fix the flapper on the toilet. Maybe it is a massage this week, but not right now.

This is the conundrum men run into. We don't have something which gives us that 'go to' deposit without fail. We can't say "I am doing this for her right now... because I know it will make her feel great about herself and therefore us." I can't say, "Honey, come over here and tell me how your day was right now." I can... but it wouldn't have the same effect as if she whispered in my ear "I put a movie in downstairs for the kids, now get upstairs in the shower, and I will be there in a moment."

I don't know of a man who wouldn't be sprinting upstairs with that said.

We don't have such a clear track to follow, from OUR standpoint. It might seem clear to YOU... but I think if you look at it on a week long basis, you can see that it is less clear and less predictable outcome, than what you have available for us. Never heard of a guy saying "Not now honey, I want to finish brushing the dog." But I have certainly heard "Not now... I have to finish the laundry, am too tired, have a headache, etc etc."

Give us a 'go to' EN deposit which is essentially FAILURE PROOF at all times... and I think we could do a much better job.