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i just want to scream!!!!!!!!!!!

i discussed this issue again with my H, and he says that he has been thinking about apologizing to the OW's husbands and ALSO APOLOGIZING TO THE OW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IS HE CRAZY!!!!!!

I had to end hte conversation and come here -b/c i was about to have an AO.

so he still cares for hte OW's feelings???? he wants to break NC and APLOGIZE TO THEM??????????????????

why do i feel like we are rotating on different planets?? why cant he see what is wrong with him saying and thinking about apoligizing to the OW??? why cant he see waht hte difference is of him apologizing to the BSs???????

i feel like i am talking to a wall- there is no understanding of anything i say.




I dont know how I missed this critical post of yours. Im sorry that I did.

What your H is failing to understand is that his apologizing has NOTHING to do with the OWH and most specifically, the OW. It has EVERYTHING to do with you. It is a way to help you heal, to regain some faith in your H's integrity. Him bringing the OW into this was a huge slap in the face to you . It is valuing HER feelings over yours which is something he did for a very long time.

Look, I will be honest. Your H has had multiple OW and a very long history of dishonesty. This behavior is deeply engrained in him. It is his way of being. Its likely that it will be a very long time before he does get it and then, only with a HUGE amount of hard work.

I would srongly suggest counseling with the Harley's. It wasnt until we started counseling that my H finally started to "get it"

Hang in there, my friend

Last edited by JustKim; 02/24/09 09:43 AM. Reason: sp

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The road-
when i finally calmed down and sat down with my H last night, i calmly told him how hurtful his thought and words were about even thinking about contacting hte OW and even caring about their feelings.

he explained his words by saying that he should apologize to everyone- the communtiy, blah, blah. this is just more of him feeling sorry for himself and overgeneralizing what i said.

we discussed how the whole community was not hurt by him- that ME and our children were the ONES hurt by him and hte other BSs.

i really dont understand why i even need to explain this - because it is as plain as day.
i really think the man is at a loss of how to be a human being, of how to think like one and just goes to that place - of - " i am a sleeze- i am disgusting- etc."

by the end of hte conversation - i think he realized how hurtful his comments were to me- apologized- which i told him - his apologies are hard for me to accept because tehre are so many- and i can move on today.

sf


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big kahuna -
i in NO way get it - to me apologizing to the OW or OM means that the WS still CARES about the AP's feelings and this is AGAINST EPs.
one of my H's most important EPs is to NOT CARE ABOUT ANOTHER PERSON OF THE OPPOSITE SEX.

and how much more breaking of an EP to care about the OW's feelings??? to me - this means he doesnt see her as an equally culpable person who also hurt me deeply - especially the ones i knew.
it is just mean, unkind and caring in the wrong direction. the fact that it is even in his head - is frightening to me.

sf


BS- me 56; FWH-58
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Just kim-
i love your words!!! you sound like ME - these are the exact thoughts that i have running through my head.

I SOOOOO AGREE WITH YOU - there needs to be a lack of empathy and a large degree of self absorption to make any person have an affair to begin with .

they know that they are doing an extremely hurtful action to their spouse - whether they are in love wiht them at the time or not- and they decide to take care of their own feelings while hurting another person. it is an extremely selfish act!! I WILL HURT YOU TO MAKE MYSELF FEEL BETTER.

i also so agree with you that i would never have an affair and i disagree with harley on this one too. i was living in the same, loveless marriage that he was. i also had opportunities to have affairs during those years, but i never crossed the first boundary - so it could have never happened.

with men who seemed caring, loving, and admiring of me. who offered me conversation - something i STILL dont get much of from my H. one of this kind of man was in a class with me and asked me out for coffee after class. i wanted to go - but declined. i didnt take the FIRST STEP towards the affair because i knew it was not in my moral makeup to break my marital vows, i would not want to hurt my husband ( who was daily verbally abusing me) and i didnt want to risk breaking up our lousy marriage - mostly for hte kids.

so i said NO. this word is not in the WS's vocabulary when it comes to getting their needs met - getting admiration and ego boosting.

by their actions they say - "I DONT GIVE A SH** ABOUT ANYTHING EXCEPT MAKING MYSELF FEEL BETTER."

it is a much more animialistic behavior without higher reasoning abilities. but then... even some animals mate for life.

to stay in the marriage and get their needs met - they would have to WORK at it. and they dont want to work at anything. they just want people to give to them.
so that is why they cant get their need met INSIDE a marriage - it also involves risk taking - exposing your true self - something that my H would never want to do. he wanted to be on top of hte mountain and i would be at the bottom admiring him all day long.

nothing coming back to me- no interaction from the top of the mountain.

and i wanted a partner - someone who would climb off hte mountain- talk to me, get dirty in the ditch with me.

and you are 3 years post d-day and still not sure???

i dont know if i can stand being in this inbetween place that long.

we are going on the MB weekend in march. have you ever been on one?

yes - we did phone coaching with jennifer. next is the weekend.

thanks for understanding, sf


BS- me 56; FWH-58
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just kim -
what is a t/j?
sf


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kim-
who did you counsel with of the harleys? we did two sessions with jennifer, dr. harley's daughter. she was great - she convinced me that my H was a willing participant and that i had nothing to lose by working on the marriage with him.

she really did NOT discuss the past- i had already e mailed her our whole story- and talks about how to change our marriage with meeing each other's ENs without LBs and EPs.

i know i already asked - but did you go on the weekend?

i think that my H is getting it- but it is just that he has sooooo far to go- (as you said)- and i am really running out of patience because of my dislike of him.

i feel that my whole marriage has been a lie-

but anyway - back to the question - i think i am looking for signs that my H has truly changed- has developed integrity and courage - and also as i repeated what you said - that he is different than the OW out there.

this will be a long recovery - and many times when he doesnt get it - i find myself asking me - WHY AM I DOING THIS??

he already threw me away the first tiem he had sex with someone else and then continued with so many for so many years.

i am an eternal optimist- even in the face of learning how some people can not be naturally good inside.

sf


BS- me 56; FWH-58
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Sunflower

T/J = thread jack. I hijacked your thread with my own rant.

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he wanted to be on top of the mountain and i would be at the bottom admiring him all day long

Even this isnt real, if you think about it. Your H wanted to be on top of the mountain and you at the bottom admiring him for who you thought he was not for who he really was. He didnt show you that for a very long time and perhaps he still hasnt.

I think it is significant that, when you are telling your H of your pain, he invariably brings it back to him i.e "he is a bad person, a sleaze" etc... He is looking for sympathy and empathy that is rightfully yours!! Its about YOUR pain that HE caused you, not his selfish need for reassurance and to somehow have you make him feel better.

Im familiar with that dynamic. For all of our marraige, I was always the one that would put aside my own pain whenever my H would show his pain. I was just so grateful that he was showing me something . That gets old fast, I can tell you.

Yes, we have been to a MB weekend. It was very helpful. Im a bg believer in MB concepts and I know that I would not still be married if it wasnt for MB.

And yes, it will be 3 years the end of April. Im not exactly a poster child for MB recovery.



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kim -
it wasnt a t/j at all- i really like reading everyone's thoughts on the subject - especially the WSs. i like hearing their persepctives.

you are right about him not showing me who he was, but i think he finally has. we talked about this and early on in our 31 year marriage - i realized that there was a piece in him missing as far as our marriage went- i realized that he wouldnt reveal himself to me.

so we went on Marriage Encounter - i dont know how old you are - but it was in the late 70s. we were only married 2 years and i already knew something was missing. i was only 23 at the time. most of hte couples were middle aged.
my H was angry at me the whole weekend- as he was sooooo out of his comfort zone and had no idea how to talk about his feelings.

but he told me after d-day - that he had no idea how to talk about his feelings - that he was afraid if i knew hte real him - i would leave him. he was the big macho guy with the muscles but inside he admits now, he was afraid of everything. and he wouldnt let me know.

only now - is there a chance for us to develop true intimacy - if i allow myself to trust him - if he can learn to converse and express his feelings- if he starts to learn how to empathize.

many, many IFS.

also - i recognized immediately his manipulation of FEEL BAD FOR ME- I AM SO DISGUSTING. and i dont fall into it - i just tell him to stop over-generalizing and that he is missing hte point.

i was also always hte one to boost him up- to help him - to wash away the blues- our MC called me a St. Bernard- that i was always helping him.

now i have learned NOT TO.

i am hoping that the MB weekend will help along this path and make me see if i cna have a satisfying relationship with my H- and how long i need to wait to see if that will happen.

who did you counsel with?

why did you decide to stay in the marriage?
sf


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Hi, Sunflower.

If I may, let me try to give just a little bit of perspective as the cheater on the whole apology to the OP.

When the FOM contacted me by text message to start NC out of the blue, I felt many things -- humiliation, disgust, guilt, shame, sadness, etc. Among them was also anger. Maybe not that very day, but shortly afterward and it has been one of the emotions that has held on the longest whenever I'm triggered in any way about him.

Why was I angry? And why do I still have flickers of it now? Because I held FOM responsible for the PA too. I mean, it takes two, right?

If FOM would not have approached me first and hadn't of told me he was attracted to me, I am confident to this day that nothing would have ever happened.

If the FOM would not have pursued me after I told him no a few times, nothing would have happened.

If he would not have encouraged me to meet him after we had already agreed it was our last meeting, the physical part would have never happened.

If he would not have begged me for sex, I would have never had sex with him and the PA would have never happened.

If he had of kept his promise to take all precautions to cover his tracks, his W would have never discovered it.

If he would have kept his promise to take care of me and never hurt me, I wouldn't be going through this pain...

Do you see where I'm going with this? Do you see all the "If he would haves..." in there? All of the blame I was trying to shift to him?

It's all ridiculous because it's my responsibility for this whole thing. There were many points along the way where I could have cut it off with FOM, but I was weak and I continually provided the opportunities that allowed him access to me. I know that.

Now turn it around. What if it was the FOM saying "If I would not have..." Is it possible your H is thinking this? Because I know I sure have. "If I would not have worn that dress." "If I would not have gone to dinner that night with just FOM and without the other friends." "If I would not have gone with him to the store." I found myself saying "How can it be FOM's fault when I made myself so available? I should apologize for being so selfish and thoughtless. He couldn't help himself." Ya right...

When I shared my desire for an apology from the FOM on my thread, I got run over by a mack truck filled with BSs who said I was a selfish, entitled, (fill-in-the-blank). And they were right. I'm only sharing it here because if your H is trying to play martyr, perhaps he feels a responsibility to apologize to everyone including the WW because maybe he feels that it wouldn't have happened if he hadn't of approached the WW -- even if she may have been sending all the invitations to do so. I don't know. I don't have any idea how it started and how it progressed. I'm just grasping here.

Of course he shouldn't reach out to WW. The only thing they owe each other now is complete NC forever. In other words, the only thing he owes her is nothing and the only thing she owes him is nothing.

BTW, for what it's worth... I apologized to the FOM's W in an email that I sent through my H. I don't know if it helped. Her only response back to my H was that she "appreciated it". And the FOM has apologized to my H by email. My H has not responded to it.


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Sunflower

We counseled with Steve Harley, from May Sep 07 till May 08 weekly and then recently, a few more times. He is wonderful, Steve. Gave us a plan that we didnt always follow and then Id lament that we werent making progress. DUH.

We tend to follow it now, mostly and when we do, we are very very good.

Why did I decide to stay in the M? Thats a good question. Some days, Im not always sure that I have decided. On a good day, I think I decided because leaving wasnt a choice for me, I love my husband. On a bad day, I think I decided to stay in the marriage because Im committed to the commitment I made to my husband when we got married.

I think you will find the MB weekend wonderful. Dr Harley is an engaging speaker and he really knows his stuff. I post at a few other forums and those people there really stuggle. I try to suggest they come here, because in my opinion, MB has the greatest sucess rate of recovering an M post A.

Last edited by JustKim; 02/24/09 02:08 PM. Reason: sp

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Can you elaborate on what you mean on how you would feel if FOM contacted your H? Im not really sure how I understand how that would be an ego boost.


JustKim,

Unlike your situation neither FOM or I have broken NC since we stopped working together in 2005. I think it was Aug that he left, but honestly I don't remember for sure what month is was.

If FOM called my DH to apologize this late in recovery I would feel annoyed he broke NC. My mind would go to something like "OMG, just leave us alone, we have moved on with our lives why don't you do the same." I also know I would snicker a little inside and this is where the ego boost would play in. I would feel like he was still hanging onto something and it would make me feel like he just can't get over the A. Of course, his intent could be completely different than what I would feel, but that is how I would feel.

Not sure if this clears it up for you or not because I know I'm not explaining it very well.

LC





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looking 4 -
thanks so much for your perspective- and also for your changed attitude- it seems like you're doing great- accepting responsibility for your part of the A- and apologizing to the OM's wife.

i can tell you from a BS- it DID help. she said she appreciated it - thats alot of words to give back to someone who you really want to hate and blame for everything.

it would mean SOOOO much to me if just one of my H's ow would apologize - thats why i started this thread.

also - just as you blamed the OW for your affair- and didnt look at your self at first- that is EXACTLY how we BSs feel.

for the first 6-8 months, i could do nothing but HATE the OW. i lived ate and breathed my hatred for them. i wrote them long, disgusting letters, i went to see 3 of them in person the day i discovered, i was taken to court by one of them for harassment - when i had only sent her one letter; i exposed them to their friends, to key people who i knew would reject them; i lived, ate and breathed my hatred for them and the s*uts they were.

the reality was - it was just TOO PAINFUL FOR ME TO LOOK AT THE REAL PERSON WHO HAD BETRAYED ME- WHO HAD MADE A VOW TO ME AND BROKEN IT - and that person was my H. now i can see that i had redirected my anger at him towards them , because it was just too hard emotionally at the time to really look at the truth about him.

now - i know - he betrayed me the most - he is the one i was married to - not them.

my H was the biggest flirt around - he flirted with anything female -didnt matter if they were attractive or not. one of his APs was a 65 year old matronly woman! anyway - the way i look at it is - is flirting was like him testing hte waters - he flirted with everyone - and whoever responded to him - he started affairs with.

but i do know one other thing - all the OW WERE EQUALLY REPONSIBLE FOR THE AFFAIRS. no one is ever PUSHED into it. we all have the ability to say NO and to walk away.

My upset with the OW is that two of them were my good "friends" and quite a few more were people i knew quite well, who often called me and spoke to me.

one in particular, pretended to be my BF, and called me everyday to find out how my H and i were getting along. this one was the most hurful of hte OW. i feel so duped by her.

i was honest and told her everything about us - how he hurt me, how terrible our sex was, etc. she probably laughed as she had sex with him that very same day. she even had the audacity to call me up when she announced that she was getting divorced - (because she had found another married man to dump his wife) and told me that she had never cheated on her husband!!! this was after having an 8 year affair wtih my H, and my H told me she had had at least 5 affairs before him.

anyway- it is hard to believe for me - how low people can be. one OW was not married when she started the A with my H, got engaged and sent us an invitation to her wedding!!!

i could go on forever with other sick stories about hte OW- but bottom line - my H betrayed me , BUT the OW were equally responsible for having an affair with a married man - whether they were married or not.

my H never took off his wedding band and never told said to anyone- even when they asked him - the he would leave me. he was a sick disturbed man, who was not loyal to any of htem either.

i think when he was talking about apologizing to the OW- he was being overly dramatic - poor me - i hurt everyone- maybe part of him feels bad that he used them to as an ego boost. i dont know.

all i know is he described how many of the women came on to him initially . then when i asked him how he flirted with them - he realized that he was an equal participant.

this post is way too long.... just many thoughts going around in my head.

sf




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LC-
i think the FWH apologizing to the OW's husband shows exactly the opposite! it shows that he is SO OVER the affair, that he even regrets hurting the H of his OW.

there would be no trying to contact the OW and if she answered, the FWH would hang up.

i think it shows how much the H has grown away from the affair and how much he regrets it.

sf


BS- me 56; FWH-58
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Sunflower ~

This is a really funny "notable post" of what happened when the OW called one of our regulars "to apologize" and "set the record straight"
Read without liquids in your mouth. :0


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hi pep-
that was a good one- i guess sad but true that even when the OW called to apologize- as schoolbus said - it was for the wrong reasons.

sf


BS- me 56; FWH-58
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Originally Posted by sunflower55
LC-
i think the FWH apologizing to the OW's husband shows exactly the opposite! it shows that he is SO OVER the affair, that he even regrets hurting the H of his OW.

there would be no trying to contact the OW and if she answered, the FWH would hang up.

i think it shows how much the H has grown away from the affair and how much he regrets it.

sf

sf,

I just wanted to throw out there that the OW might read way more into it than there is. There are so many scenarios that could play out and the pros may not outweigh the cons. Each couple has to decide if it's worth the risk or not.

I hope after all this time, regardless of an apology, that FOM or his W don't think about either of us at all. We have moved on and hope they have too.

LC





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kim-
wow - you must have spent a fortune to have weekly sessions for that long! thats why we decided to go on the weekend. maybe we'll need more sessions afterward but we are hoping that the ongoing support given by dr. harley and his staff will be enough...although i would like to try a session wiht steve.

i agree that if our marriage survives - it will only be because of MBs. this is hte best program out there.

you sound so much like me - would you care to share anything of your story?
sf


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Sunflower

I agree. The post that Pep mentioned was clearly about someone who was interested in themselves and not the BS.

To me, a more accurate apology would go something like:

Quote
I wronged you. Nothing I say can ever take away your pain. You didnt deserve what I did to you and Im sorry.
Thats it. Owning your own stuff.

I also agree that to me, the message it sends is that the OW is not even significant enough to mention. That it isnt "about her" that the WS is SO over the A that he recognizes just how WRONG and stupid it was.

LC, no disrespect intended but I find it very curious that you would still somehow interpret an apology to your H would somehow be about YOU. In that, the OM cant get over the AP or the A and is still hung up on it when it is about everything but the AP.


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Sunflower

A fortune, yes but much less than the cost of a divorce, both emotional and financial.

I probably have a thread here somewhere and will try to dig it up. Its very old, Im sure so not sure how far back the search function goes these days.

My story isnt much different than anyone else here, Im afraid.

Its remarkable how alike these things are.


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lc-
i am also moving on and am working to forgive the OW in my heart so as not to spoil my own life with bitterness, but i suggest a different take on it-

when someone injures another human being- and does not express remorse for that action - there is somehow a door still left open to the injury.

it takes a higher level of conscousness to forgive a person who has hurt another without an apology or acknowledgement of hte pain that hey caused. i am working to get to that higher plane - and i accept that the OW will most probably never apologize because they have not changed themselves and are not hte kind of people who empathize.

BUT- even if it were years later- i would welcome some kind of apology for the pain that they inflicted. it doesnt mean that i am living in the past- it means that i can somehow have more peace knowing that this persons sees and recognizes the pain and is willing to take responsibility for their own actions.

and it means that this person has moved soooo far past the point of cheating and lying- to a better place.

i can still dream for humanity.....

sf


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3 kids, DS 23,23 DD 14; Married: 34 years
D-Days: 7/11/07;/7/13/07;7/31/07
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Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
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