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kim=

yes- i read some of your beginning posts- and you're right- i felt exactly the same at so many points.

i admire your ability to totally get what i say- thanks for understanding when it seems like no live person in my world does.

sf


BS- me 56; FWH-58
3 kids, DS 23,23 DD 14; Married: 34 years
D-Days: 7/11/07;/7/13/07;7/31/07
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LC, no disrespect intended but I find it very curious that you would still somehow interpret an apology to your H would somehow be about YOU. In that, the OM cant get over the AP or the A and is still hung up on it when it is about everything but the AP.

It wouldn't be the apology itself, it would be the contact that would get me.

For me I know it would be a fleeting thought with not much after thought, but nonetheless it would be a thought. For some it would be the start of a bad cycle of thinking patterns and could lead to trouble. I'm basing this on the addictive nature of A's, how it made me feel and how looooong I was in withdrawal.

Maybe it's different in my case because I did apologize. I would question why now after all this time? FOM certainly had the chance and he didn't bother, so why bother now? I've asked my DH in the past if it ever bothered him that he didn't get an apology and he said he no, he never expected one either.

I can understand BS's wanting an apology they most certainly deserve one. The big question is how to be OK with it if they don't ever get it.

LC





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Sunflower

You are most welcome. I understand truly where you are at. As I said, Im not a poster child for MB recovery but I have been there so hopefully I can help somehow

LC - thanks for not getting defensive - I didnt want you to feel like it was a personal attack on you. You ask why after all this time? Well, I know in my own H's case, he would probably tell you it has taken this long for him to gain enough self awareness to know what it is that he did to another human being. I dont think he had the capacity to understand before. To his great credit, he does now.


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Sunflower

I went back and hunted up some old posts of mine.

Its amazing to me reading these how far we've come and yet, how things are really the same as well

Thread around 1 year anniversary of dday :

One year anniversary of d-day angst

And here's my first post ever



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BUT- even if it were years later- i would welcome some kind of apology for the pain that they inflicted. it doesnt mean that i am living in the past- it means that i can somehow have more peace knowing that this persons sees and recognizes the pain and is willing to take responsibility for their own actions.

and it means that this person has moved soooo far past the point of cheating and lying- to a better place.



sf,

I completely understand this, that was part of why I did apologize. After I ended the A I lurked on a board for betrayed spouses and with every post I read I could picture FOM's W. It was while I read on that board that I realized exactly what it was I did to her. I was mortified at who I became and how I could do to her what I did. When I apologized I hoped she knew it was sincere. I also never expected she would be able to accept my apology, but knew she deserved it regardless.

Of course because I had so much resentment toward my DH, while reading on the other board I never even considered he might actually care about the A and also be hurt. (yes I realize how sad that is).

I honestly never expected FOM's DW would send me a note in the mail offering forgiveness like she did. After I got her note I was torn for a few days because I wasn't sure if I should respond to her and acknowledge it or if I should just leave her alone. I decided to send a note back letting her know I received it and read it. I later learned she did appreciate getting my note.

I hope you can have what you want someday.

LC





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LC - thanks for not getting defensive - I didnt want you to feel like it was a personal attack on you. You ask why after all this time? Well, I know in my own H's case, he would probably tell you it has taken this long for him to gain enough self awareness to know what it is that he did to another human being. I dont think he had the capacity to understand before. To his great credit, he does now.


JustKim,

I knew you weren't personally attacking me, your thoughts were valid.

I'm the type of person who it takes a while for me to move past something, but once I do I just want to leave it where it is. I'm sensing that may have a lot to do with why I feel I do. I would just want FOM to leave us alone. I sometimes forget not everyone is like I am.

I suppose if my DH was wanting an apology I may feel differently.

LC





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lc-
so did the OM's wife send you a letter offering forgiveness BEFORE you apologized- or after you apologized????

how did you apologize- e mail, letter, phone, etc.??

sf


BS- me 56; FWH-58
3 kids, DS 23,23 DD 14; Married: 34 years
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Originally Posted by sunflower55
lc-
so did the OM's wife send you a letter offering forgiveness BEFORE you apologized- or after you apologized????

how did you apologize- e mail, letter, phone, etc.??

sf

I apologized first. She sent the note a few months later.

I have the whole story posted here somewhere, but can't find it right now. I have to run out for a few minutes, will find it and post it here when I get back

If the darn search feature worked it would be so much easier to find stuff. Jeez Louise how the heck long are they going to take to fix it? Grrrrr.

LC





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I finally found it. Here is what I posted on 1-13-08 on a different thread.

Why do so few OW ever apologize to the BW?


Quote
I have apologized to my FOM's BW. When I first apologized she told me she was unable to accept my apology. I completely understood.

Several months after the verbal apology to her I received a note in the mail from her stating this: (I have a copy of it in my personal journal. For obvious reasons I removed our names)

Dear LC,

The past few months have given me time to think, pray and reflect. Though the words and actions of the past caused me sorrow and pain, it is not my desire to ascribe proportionate blame or harbor hurtful attitudes. I wish to extend forgiveness and sincere well wishes for continued healing, growth and happiness for you and your family. May you experience a resurrection of joy this Easter season.

FOM's W

P.S. I've just learned of your father's passing. My condolences to you and your family on your loss.


I knew FOM's W and wasn't sure what to do once I received her note. After a week or so decided I wanted to reply to her note and sent her the following.

Dear FOM's W,

I received your note offering forgiveness and it was greatly appreciated. I would also like to let you know I am approachable if you ever want to talk. Because of the overwhelming guilt and complete disregard of my core values I am still working on self forgiveness, perhaps with time that will come.

I wish you and FOM continued healing and the best for the future. I deeply regret what we did and am truly sorry for my part in the pain you have felt over this huge mistake I was very selfishly a part of.

LC


FOM and I were still working together at the time and he expressed to me his W did appreciate my reply.

My initial verbal apology was a few months after I confessed to my DH and was through my DH. The reason the apology was through my DH is because when he told me he wanted to talk to her and make sure she knew about the A. I asked him to tell her I was very sorry and he did. It was at that point she said she was unable to accept it.

I replied because I wanted her to know my initial apology was sincere and that it did come from me. I also wanted her to know I did take the time to read her note. I didn't want her to wonder if I read it or simply threw it out like it meant nothing.

When going through my old posts I saw that you and I have discussed apologies before on a different thread than the one linked above.

LC





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LC

I found this old thread that you posted very insightful.

This is particular haunts me:

Quote
(as written by MelodyLane)

I would be personally offended and ALARMED if my H bashed the OWH. The OWH was his VICTIM, after all. If my H did that, I would know he is not truly sorry for he did and was NOT RECOVERED.

This applies to Sunflower's situation as well as mine. In Sunflower's case, he H might not have bashed the BS of the OW but he did bring the OW into Sunflowers request for an apology and then blameshifted by making it about him and how "horrible" he was.

In my own case, MR JK did say that he believes he owes the OWH an apology which is progress because a year ago, he didnt feel that way. However, he went on to point out that the OWH is a deeply flawed person and not a nice one. When he said that, I felt all "icky" inside and couldnt figure out why, until now. Now I have words to go along with the feeling.



BS: Me, 43
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LC -
thanks for finding that old post. i couldnt find you posting to me before about apologies.

anyway - i thought it was BEAUTIFUL and very giving what the OM's BS wrote in her note to you. especially her "sincere well wishes for your continued healing". she seems like a wonderful person and i hope to get to that point of forgiveness towards the OW in my life.

the note that you wrote to her was also very beautiful. and if i had received a note like that - it would mean alot. especially your words that said - that you were sorry for your part in the pain that you were "selfishly a part of"; and "working on self forgiveness".

these two statements mean that you see your own part in the A- and accept it and want to change that part of you.

i must be honest with you though - i would NOT accept a verbal apology from my H from the OW. this was not really an apology on your part.

saying it YOURSELF would be an apology - but NOT through your H.
so i think that that the OM's wife is even greater that she DID consider it an apology - and wrote you such a beautiful note.

sf


BS- me 56; FWH-58
3 kids, DS 23,23 DD 14; Married: 34 years
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Kim -
thanks for posting that - i had already read much of your story by looking at your old posts.

lucky for you - it was only one affair and not one lasting that long.

similar to me - the A was with you BF. my H's longest A was with my BF.

this is the hardest one to get over.

i dont get how SHE called me everyday...
i dont get how SHE came to my house for meals and parties..
i dont get how she visited my H in the hospital every day when he was in a coma....
i dont get how SHE asked me how sex was with my H
i dont get how SHE could pretend to be my friend- the list is endless - i could fill up ten more pages...

at least now she knows that my H thought nothing of her b/c he also had sex with her mother!!! i told her so in a note.

i need to learn to look at these women as SICK and BROKEN. that is the only way i can heal from the pain that the OW have given me - in addition to the pain my own H gave me.

i guess to have pain - i must accept it . i dont accept in anymore. life is too short. i want out of hte pain...

i want to stop filling my head wiht thinking of the ow and the A. i want to LIVE .....

sf



BS- me 56; FWH-58
3 kids, DS 23,23 DD 14; Married: 34 years
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SF,

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LC -
thanks for finding that old post. i couldnt find you posting to me before about apologies.

Sorry, it was on a different thread than the one I posted a link to. Here it is: Forgiving the OW

Quote
anyway - i thought it was BEAUTIFUL and very giving what the OM's BS wrote in her note to you. especially her "sincere well wishes for your continued healing". she seems like a wonderful person and i hope to get to that point of forgiveness towards the OW in my life.


I agree. She is very religious and I'm sure relied quite a bit on her faith to get to the point she did. I have the utmost respect for her for being such a big person.

Quote
i must be honest with you though - i would NOT accept a verbal apology from my H from the OW. this was not really an apology on your part.

I understand. Part of the reason the apology came through my DH was because when I told my FOM I wanted to talk to her and apologize he told me to leave her alone. I honestly believed I was respecting her wishes. Hindsight I suspect he was doing damage control and didn't really want me to talk to her for fear I would reveal something he hadn't told her (that is a thread topic all in itself).

Prior to my DH confirming FOM's DW knew about the A he and I discussed it at length and he said when he talked to her he would tell her and was going to ask her if she would be open meeting with me. He said when she said she couldn't accept it he just let it slide.

LC (who desperately needs to get off the computer and clean the house)

Last edited by lifeschoice; 02/25/09 12:06 PM. Reason: spelling




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SF,

I forgot I wanted to comment on this, too.

Quote
these two statements mean that you see your own part in the A- and accept it and want to change that part of you.

It took me a long time to understand about owning my part. I really believed it was my DH's fault. My other board buddies hung with me and pounded it my head. They stuck with me when I was foggy as foggy could be because I was still working with my FOM and helped me pick up the pieces when I fell head first over the deepend due to the stress of keeping the secret.

I definitely changed that part of me and work hard to make sure it never comes back.

LC





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LC-
i had a good laugh about needing to get off hte computer and do something else! thats how i feel lately.
i come here to these boards so often - especially when i dont feel understood by my H- or he does something insensitive or hurtful or doesnt communicate well...

i think i need to start working on our communcation with him- but also his non-desire to apologize - or lack of doing it= he may desire it but doesnt do it- leads me to have less respect for him and i need to find somethings that i can respect him for.

LC- you seem to have made great strides in taking full responsibility for yoru own actions and for developing empathy for people.

i think you are the exception as far as WSs go.

sf




BS- me 56; FWH-58
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sunflower55

"but also his non-desire to apologize - or lack of doing it"

To me you are hung up on a non issue. Apologize, to whom, for what?

Apologize to the OW. For what they were just as much in the wrong as your WH to cheat on their spouses. Chances are if they didn't cheat and bang your WH they most likely would of found someone else to cheat on their BH's with. Most likely they did that any way in addition to your WH.

Apologize to the BH's.

What for?

What can your WH say to these BH's?

I sorry for all the BJ's, HJ's, the times I bent your WW over my desk, the time WW brought me into your house to bang her, the times I had your WW ride me like a cow girl in the new car you were paying for.

These BH's don't want to here your WH is sorry. Your WH can not undo violating their marriages.

As most WH's your probably did not use protection.

How does your WH undo his bodily fluids from going on and in these WW's?

The real issue is why don't you want to expose your WH?

Exposure is where the BW tells the OWH.

Why do you want the WS to do the BS's job?

Your playing your fiddle while Rome burns. You refuse to take action so these OWH's will no longer be denied the truth. You want a WS to do the BS's job.

These OWM never meant anything to your WH then and these OWM do not mean anything to your WH now.

It shows by his actions.

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SF,

Quote
LC- you seem to have made great strides in taking full responsibility for yoru own actions and for developing empathy for people.

i think you are the exception as far as WSs go.

IMO, the WS's who really "get it" are the ones who take the time to read on message boards and learn from BS's. Reading people's first hand experiences made it all very real to me. I suspect that may also true for the other FWS who post here.

The other board I posted on prior to coming here was comprised mostly of women. When I came here I got a good look into my DH's mind because there are so many men here. My DH is not the type who wants to talk about anything, especially my A. I have learned very valuable information from the male perspective that has really helped up recover.

Does your DH read here? If not, maybe he should.

As for the apologies, The Road is right. Many AP's really don't care and may never see what they did as wrong. What can you do to accept you may never get the apology? Don't over focus on something you probably will never get. The only person you can control is yourself.

Here is a link to something I read a long time ago. It's not A related at all, it talks about letting go of hurt and anger. In the second paragraph they mention waiting for an apology.

Empowering caregivers

LC

Last edited by lifeschoice; 02/26/09 08:15 AM. Reason: spelling again




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I haven't read this whole thread, but I'd like to voice my opinion as a BS. I do not and never will want an appology from OW EVER. For her to contact me, under any circumstances, will just reopen wounds and will do more for her than me. I don't give a rat's a$$ how remorseful she may be. Her guilt is not my concern. The damage is done and there is no need for her to contact me for any reason because it will only result in more damage.

So I request that you do not ask your WS to contact the OWH - the BS to whom he was an OM. It is no different than asking him to take a knife and stab him in the back one more time. His intentions mean nothing to the BS at this point, nor does your WS's guilt or remorse or need for forgiveness. An A is not an accidental mistake that happened that he can feel bad for and good manners dictate that he should express remorse. That would be equating it to the kid who accidently hit the baseball through the neighbour's living room window. That is an accident, though a result of stupidity/carelessness for which the kid is expected to appologize and learn from. An A is malicious, premeditated assault on people's very souls. They cannot possibly be "sorry" because they knew the consequences going in.

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Grr- I just had this very long post and lost it! I will try to recreate it again here.


I think what Sun is trying to say is that she would like her H to apologize to the OWH because if he does he will become better than the OW, whom Sun sees as despicable. He will show her that he is capable of empathy and acting unselfishly, something that is sorely lacking in a WS prior to an A and a mindset that is largely responsible for an A happening in the first place. If he does this, she can feel safer knowing that her H "gets it".

I think its significant that we BS's assign a proportionately large share of the blame and anger toward the AP. To do otherwise means we would have to face the inglorious truth about our own spouses. If we did that, how many of us would really want to recover our marriages?? These boards are filled with BH's who believe that their WW was somehow coerced, forced or even drugged into an A. Its filled with BW's who believe that the OW is a manipulative, evil ho who is just as predatory. The truth is, our spouses were just as culpable. They willingly betrayed, lied and hurt us.

Road, to your point, you are probably correct in that there is nothing that a WH/OM can say to a BH that will somehow make up for the betrayal. This really isnt about the OWH, however. Its about Sun's H redeeming himself slightly in HER EYES.

Tabby - Would you want your H to aplogize to the BH of the OW?



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Tabby - Would you want your H to aplogize to the BH of the OW?

No. The OWH is a very decent man that suffered greatly at the hands of both OW and WstbxH. But I didn't recover my M so my answer to this is not from the same perspective. I sympathize with and have far more respect for OWH than the lyin' cheatin' POS that was once my husband.

Had we recovered - and this is just conjecture - I would be more concerned with how he felt towards ME than OWH. I think it would be important for me to know that he understood and felt remorse for the pain he caused to other people in addition to me - and this would include DS, my mom, his mom, all of our siblings, friends, employers and coworkers IN ADDITION to OWH, his DD and all of his connections. But I would also expect him to make peace with all of these people in a way that didn't cause any new pain.

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