I am gonna second the "no booze"!!

IF things go south.......you will be a "raging alcoholic" in about 5 mins.

I know it sux

food for thought

&**^%$%$&@@!!!!!

Yeah, fog and wishy-washiness. All the good feelings I had from her penitent talk and subsequent good times get smashed when she's defensive and angry. It just feels so unjust. She has nothing to be angry at me for? I stuck around despite her horrible actions. I just keep trying to reinforce that I'm done with the ups and downs, and she considers it a passive aggressive threat. It IS a threat. There is no passivity involved. If she screws up again, I doubt I will be around to try once again.

We got into another argument today and she's just so angry, and I keep telling her that her anger is misguided if it's toward me. I tell her I won't accept it. She finally calmed down and said she knows she doesn't really have a right to be angry with me but she's human. Says she just wants peace, but I keep fighting. Keep reminding her that I'm ready to go. I don't think I'm fighting, I just don't want it all to get brushed under the rug so I get to go through it all again in five years.

I think I need to stop with the 'I'm headed out the door if you screw up again' stuff. So now she knows. Just need to be calm and supportive. If she screws up, then I can act how I need to act. It's HARD not to have your pain addressed. Wife is not in the place to really give much yet. Apparently just being home is the big effort for her right now. I know, I know, this is normal. Blech.

I know booze are a rather prominant feature in this thread, but I'm not lying when I say that I haven't even been drunk in my entire life until about a month and half ago. I don't think she'll pull that one out on me.

Yes, I'm going to back off the drink. My inexperience with this stuff is making it harder to have boundaries. I seem to fight with her after I have too much.

Good. You need your wits about you. Plan A is not done!

And remember, if anyone leave the house, it ain't going to be YOU! If you do get to that point, please do have a conversation with an attorney about your rights. Don't abandon the home...ask her to leave until she decides to end this affair once and for all.

And be strong. Stay with the solid Plan A. It IS having an effect on her!!!

Yeah, I feel like I have a better sense of where she's at today. She takes my laying out boundaries as threats and anger. It's not intended that way, but I think I need to just take a back seat again with this. She did reiterate that she knows she isn't entitled to be angry and apologized. This helps me, because her anger and defensiveness are very hard for me to take. I need to remember that the withdrawal symptoms are going to be here for quite awhile, and I need to be cautious not to push her. Stick with the boundaries, don't constantly reiterate them!

Just made some plans for a date night on Friday. I'll lay off the sauce this time, and hopefully end the night with good feelings, not drunken emotional diarrhea of the mouth. Need to just build on the sense of comfort and not just remind her how hurt I am. Plan A will be in effect for the foreseeable future!

Z: Sounds like as you travel down this road you refine and adjust your strategies. Good for you. Sticking with your boundaries is a good thing...just remember to avoide the love busters when doing so. Be calm and patient and just state the facts about your boundaries.

She's going to get upset one minute, then ask for your forgiveness the next. Typical wayward actinos.

Date night! Great idea. And laying off the liquid courage...even better idea. We started date night about a month ago. Once a week we head out and spend about two hours alone -- our kiddos are babysitting themselves, so we limit the time we are out.

Treat date night like you would when you were dating. Open the door for her, compliments on her looks, smells...all the little things you did that won her heart. Don't overdo it...just solid Plan A. No relationship talk, just chat about stuff.

It is amazing how I have forgotten this wonderful little philosophy when interacting with my wife -- when I'm nice to her, she is nice to me in return! It's the old "in order to get power...one must give power first" theory.

Hard to follow some time when a BS is dealing with a WS, an affair, all the lies, deception, hurt and selfishness. But remember, right now you aren't disecting and examining the relationship, you are trying to get her through withdrawal. There will be time to talk about the affair and all that lead to it in the future.

Patience. I got your back Z!

Our date night last week was really nice. Very much like we were a newer couple with easy conversation. The difference was that we had this wealth of history and shared experience and knowledge to mine as we conversed. It was really fun. Of course we ended up in a long discussion/fight until 3:30 in the morning, but it was pretty great until then.

Last night was interesting. We had pledged to just go easy on the BIG stuff for awhile. I think this is important because she's only a week into NC. Her mind is going to be very influenced by her feelings of withdrawal and the lingering fog of the affair. We sat in bed chatting and watching a funny movie for awhile. Then, I started getting a little frisky and she responded, and we had some of the more relaxed and connected sex that we've had through this. We started talking after that and despite our pledge, went right into deep water again. I was reiterating some boundaries, but apologizing for not relaxing and letting her have some room. I told her that I saw this soft, penitent person a week ago, and I need to know that it was real. She kept saying that it is. I asked her to be less defensive and angry. She started by saying that I'm asking her to be someone else, that I don't like HER. I told her that I saw this gentle side last week, and throughout our marriage, so I think it's just as much a part of her as all the other emotions and reactions. She started acknowledging this, which was good. Started talking about the affair itself. She talked about how it began. She has maintained that the affair was ON PURPOSE, as a means to end the marriage. I kept trying to get at the root of this, because that simply doesn’t make sense to me, given all the events, and the fact that she was going to keep it secret, and keeps coming back to the marriage. She finally started talking about the stupid decision that led to the hook-up, and that it was a drunken mistake, not a purposeful plan. (The fog lifts!) She was trying to say that she doesn't believe she's a bad person because of it. I tried to reassure her that MOST people are susceptible to infidelity given the right circumstances, and the trick is to avoid the circumstances. Lots of relationship talk, how we got where we are, her issues with the marriage, ancient history, etc. In the end, it was a very good talk with some pretty good progress. Still left with that feeling that I love her, but I'm not sure if I like her right now. When she's affectionate and conversational, I love her. When we're physical, I couldn't be happier. When she's angry and terse and defensive and claiming that this is just her personality, I want to be far away from her.

So this morning I'm left with these two contrasting feelings. I love her, but I don't like her. Thankfully I have you dear people and all these resources telling me that this is perfectly normal and can be overcome with some patience and the correct steps. So onward I go. I've been calling this The Bhutan Death March. Doesn’t feel quite so horrid anymore, thankfully. It's definitely less agonizing than the previous weeks. The roller coaster continues, but it seems that progress is being made. Need to remember Steve McGandhi.

I asked her to be less defensive and angry. She started by saying that I'm asking her to be someone else,

I said something like this to my wife. I said its like a cat, when she's mad the claws come out and she scratches real hard. All I asking is that when you are mad just show the claws and I will back off, you don't have to scratch me to death everytime. The claws are very, very sharp!!! I don't know if this is a good analogy but she got the point.

Date night sounds like it was a success! Good for you.

Love the Bhutan Death March analogy. I'm with you, marching step for step...

Yes, as we get further and further away from last contact my WW's mind becomes clearer and clearer. And she opens up more.

Here are a few techniques I've been using subtly. Almost so subtle that I don't even realize I'm using them.

Reminiscing: WW and I have a very happy and fun filled marriage. Lots of good memories that we have been bringing up a lot lately. One thing I will do is reminisce about something in the past and just leave it out there for her to ponder. No follow up, no lead in to marriage / relationship talk. Just throw it out there and leave it. I think it sinks into her brain and leaves her with a positive memory.

The Look: Every once and a while I just stop and stare at my wife with that look of awe and amazement. No, not when she's being a chit, but when she's being gentile and kind with the kiddos, or she's putting her makeup naked in front of the mirror in morning...or just looking good. I stare until she notices me, then smile and walk away

Random acts of kindness: Gentile kiss on the forhead, gently rubbing her shoulders as she works on computer, bringing her refil for coffee. Just small things that I used to do...but for some stupid reason stopped doing. I just do them, then wander about my business like nothing happened, not expecting anything in return...ultimate giver.

Touching: WW loves to have her back tickled -- very relaxing. For longest time I tickled her back only when I was wanting or expecting SF. Now I do it all the time, and back rubs and run my fingers through her hair. She loves the touch, and frankly so do I. (we've always been very touchy-feely).

Treat her like my Queen: in my professional life I was known as a person who would go extra mile for those around me. High need for admiration I guess (the "thanks, I appreciate what you did" part of admiration). Since November I've done a pretty good job being that guy for my wife -- getting her the things she needs, being there for her, taking care of her, etc. At first I felt like "why should I be working so hard at this...I'm going to grow resentful." But strange thing happened...I grew to enjoy taking care of her. It has become a part of me. And now that the fog and withdrawal is mostly gone she's giving back to me, which is very cool.

Hope this helps Zen. Take what you will and throw the rest in to the dumpster. And I love the "Steve McGandhi" thing! Keep up the good work my man!

Thanks DNU1.

There are definitely moments when she's acknowledging the little things. Clean house, laundry done, back rub. Last night she said she was craving cheese after our lovin. Jumped up and got her a couple slices. I would have done this in the past I think, but I had more of a sense of joy doing it than I've had in awhile. She said it was very sweet. Also said my seduction was really sweet. Said she loves being seduced. "Why didn't you use that line for the last 10 years?" This in response to an elaborate analogy I was drawing between a French curve and gumdrops and her hip and leg um... other stuff. You're right, strike a balance between making her feel cared for and cherished, and not being the needy puppy dog.

Just had an excellent talk with my Dad. Feels good to have him tell me that he admires the effort I'm putting into this. He says he would never have the patience that I have. For me it comes down to this: I have everything in the world that I want. I will fight to the bitter end to save it.

I've been struggling with anger lately, I think because I have this feeling that she might be sticking around. I want to have some of the feelings addressed, now that I feel a tiny bit more sure of things. So hard to get your head around the idea of a withdrawal period. I mean it makes perfect sense, it just seems like salt in the wound for the BS. I'm only a week in! It's hard describing this stuff to others - they think I'm crazy for sticking with it. Still everyone I know supports us being together.

I have an appointment with Dr. Harley on Friday. I feel like I’m in a good place, but I'd like some more input on getting through the withdrawal period, and input on how to encourage WW to start working on her own STUFF.

Thanks everyone!

Hang in there Zen. I'm sure Dr. H will have good advice for you regarding your WWs withdrawal and how to encourage her.

Some days it seems my wife is still suffering through that withdrawal. Other days she seems better.

Glad you have your Dad to support you. I've basically got nothing but this board. Two of WWs good friends (females) know and I've talked to them a little, but feel uncomfy because, well, they are HER friends. But they both support my decision to stick in this and both think I'm headed for sainthood for not kicking WW to the curb at DDay. So I got that going for me

Hang in there. The more you cherish and take care of her the closer you get to her being completely done with withdrawal and start working on her self.

Hang in there!

Man, DNU1, I really feel for you, having few people to talk to. I have reconnected with friends and relied heavily on my parents, brother and good friends through this. I don't know what I'd do it without them. Pretty much everyoneI know is supportive of my efforts, with the occassional look of pity. My wife has cut herself off from almost all her friends and family and is just starting to dip her toes into the water again. The exposure to everyone we know really hurt her, I think, but I don't regret it a bit. She expresses anger about it to others, but not much to me. It's like she knows it's not a good reason to be angry. Along with the exposure I was careful to state that I had contributed to her disillusionment and that I hoped her friends would stand by her. She continually says she has no friends through this, but it is almost 100% her choosing. I've been getting a lot of the saint comparisons which certainly helps the VERY bruised ego in this situation. Gotta be careful not to let it go to my head.

Zen, i told the world about my wife's first affair (14 years ago), even though it was pretty much over. Didn't have MB.com to refer to. We lived away from most of our family, but it was hard for her to come to family events for a long, long time. Felt horrible.

This time, A#2, the affair was over on DDay, so no need to expose to anyone but OMs GF. And wife feels terrible enough as it is. She asked that I not tell my family for fear they would not forgive her again.

I understand, and really want to work on our marriage. It's been hard to work through this myself, but with the grace of the big man upstairs and the wonderful receptive people on this board I'm moving forward.

I'm being strong. It is kind of nice to be seen as the "saint" and the "great guy" who is wiling to work on his wayward wife. But that only goes so far. Wife needs to continue to move forward.

One day at a time. Like Tom Hanks said in Castaway, "I've just got to keep breathing. You never know what the tide might bring in."

No reponse to emails this afternoon. Gettin kinda late for dinner time... Doesn't pick up phone... That ol familiar feeling...

Get a position locator on her phone. At least you'll know where she is!

Zen: Yea, may be time to GPS her car and/or GPS track her phone. If's she's got a smartphone I suggest flexispy.com

I'm not saying...I'm just saying

Shows you you EVERY incoming/outgoing text and logs phone calls. Pro version does other really cool things...

Called shortly after my post. Apologized and said she had a meeting that ran over and she didn't have her phone or computer with her. This was a meeting to decide whether or not she had a job, and I tend to believe this was the real deal. Only about an hour late home, it was just the lack of communication that was making me nervous. I was very calm and welcoming when she came home, even though a little sore. She was apologetic but relieved with the results of her meeting. A pleasant evening all around.

I will keep spying, but I'm just not willing to turn my life into this constant paranoid bs. I may be naive, but I feel like I have enough of a finger on her pulse to tell when things are headed back into affair land. So far she's doing all the right things as far as her time and accountability goes. Sometimes her attitude leaves a little to be desired, but it's usually when we're hitting the heavy subjects or when she's around others who know abotu the affair. I will continue to keep my eyes and ears open, but I won't let this run my life. Sooner or later something will surface if she's continuing the affair, and I will act accordingly.

This morning she thanked me for all the things I'm doing around the house and with the kids. Said I was a good wife. Ha. Well at least she notices. When I stand back and listen to other accounts, I think she's doing a pretty good job during this early withdrawal period. Seems to be managing the depression and stress, without being too unpleasant to be around. She's definitely burying herself in work, and still pretty self centered in her whole outlook, but I feel her coming back into the family and marriage little by little. She reaches out to me more and more, asks how I'm doing, initiates physical contact more. Trying to remember the timelines described in Surviving the Affair. I believe he says 2 to 3 weeks of severe depression, then a gradual decrease over the ensuing months. Can last about twice the length of the affair, which would mean about 5 months for us. We're just starting week 2 today. Yikes. I know these are subjective numbers, but I also believe they've seen enough of these to at least offer educated guesses.

Onward and upward. Let's see if I can actually get some work done today?!

I posed some of these questions elsewhere, but I think I'd like to hear some of the answers on my own thread.

I am concentrating on my boundaries, and how to stick to them, without LBs and without betraying my desire to remain in the strong Plan A.

Conditions I gave her to get back in the door last week:

- No Contact

- Follow MB principles

- Complete honesty

- Transparency


She seems to be doing a good job with transparency. I feel like there's a level of gesture in this because it's dirt simple to open other email accounts, etc. This is where her accountability with time comes in. She's doing OK with this. Wish there was a little more frequent contact, but it's been pretty good.

Following some of the MB principles in action, but zero effort to look at the book and start the nitty gritty work.

No contact? Who knows. I think I'll ask her again tonight. See the reaction. Just seems so likely that there would be contact, but I may not know until she acts on it.

She's meeting a female business friend for happy hour after work today. Asked if I was OK with it. I told her it made me nervous, but if she can contact me a couple times and not stay late, I would be OK. She agreed to take a couple pictures of herself while there.

How does this all sound? Stay the course? Push the progress more?

Zen, although DDay was more than a month after her last contact with OM, my wife still had wavering feelings towards him. Even now, I can see she's working on things, but it's still slow going.

I'm like you and want to see movement, progress, any little hint of an effort on my wife part. My IC, her IC and people on this board helped me understand that I need to be patient. Yes, if I'm stressing out all over the place, let my WW know, but avoiding love busters.

And another thing...my wife hates the touchy-feely-hold-hands-sing-kumbayaa-activities. So instead of demanding she do X, Y & Z, I subtly move towards those "boundaries."

Example: I didn't demand e-mail & smartphone passwords, simply mentioned it a few times and left it lie. Talked about it a while later, and let sink in again. A few days later she says, "here's my e-mail password" etc. Subtle, but effective.

I'm not jamming SAA down her throat (although some days I would like to do just that) and she's not reading the book her IC asked her to. So I asked if I could copy a few chapters from this site for her to read...she's okay with that.

Honesty...well, you know from my thread how that's going. Progress, although slow...

After our first affair I laid down the law and said she must meet these criteria, bang, bang, bang. Which she did. I wonder if she ever felt resentful towards me?

This time around after reading MB.com principles and talking with my IC, I'm being much more patient and subtle. It's almost as if she's coming up with these ideas. I just plant the seed and watch it grow

I think that will have a more lasting impact on her. If you FORCE her to do something she may resent it. If you *help her understand* (aka, subtle, etc.) then she might pick up the ball and run with it.

But remember, it's going to take time. My wife is just now starting to open up on the transparency thing...and it's been almost three months since the affair ended.