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***real biblical advise requested*** (please try to look beyond what this may "seem" to be to give biblical and godly counsel...thanks.)

This is the one real sore spot in our marriage; it grieves me that my dh demands SF from me and says that it is biblical for him to demand and for me to meet his SF need whether I feel like it or not because I am commanded by the Word of God.

He says that he is entitled to SF that NOT meeting my EN is no justification for me being unsubmissive and he says that HE HAS THE RIGHT TO DEMAND SF because this is HOW CHRIST JESUS himself "loved the church" [/u](see the book of Revelation---commanding obedience and disciplining the church) and the he is permitted and "blessed by God as the spiritual head of our home to chastise for my disobedience."

He says that THERE IS NO ONE who is able to counsel him as he will not hear anything but what THE BIBLE ITSELF says on this...

There is much more to this story but I just want to focus on the questionIs "demanding SF" scripturally permitted and kind to dw???












Last edited by dearheart; 03/01/09 07:22 PM. Reason: post incomplete
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Well, if you keep it up, chances are you will grow to resent it and you may start avoiding sex whenever you can.

Hubby is distorting scripture.

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Why is it every time a man quotes this for whatever reason he conveniently forgets the LOVE THY WIFE part too?


One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger

I will not spend my life this way.
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He believes scripture shows him that LOVING is also correcting; but my concern and view is that he is selfishly demanding and using God's word...WHAT part of scripture would point to him that he is being selfish in demanding this? I told him that "he does not need to demand SF of me" and he replied "I do when you are not submissive to meet my SF".

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The scripture I'm familiar with is Esphesians 5:22-33

Ephesians 5:22-33 (New International Version)

Wives and Husbands
22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."[b] 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband

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But I wonder if you have a pastor or someone who could talk to your husband.

Do you mind me asking you what church you attend?

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I had connected with good Pastor/counselor who was willing to counsel us at a church that I was attending last year; my dh would not meet with him and later; for other reasons, did not want me to continue to attend the church.

I have a church that both dh and I met in over 13 years ago. I have always been active in ministry and he is available now to attend with me. The pastor is new as of last Sept; he likes him but we don't know them well enough. I have spoken with his wife and a few godly sisters and have prayer support but no male counsel who will approach him or whom he thinks is qualified to teach him what the scriptures say. He is NOT willing to meet anyone stating that "if I would only submit" that he would not have to demand.

This is true. And he feels VERY biblically justified especially since he says that the scriptures that I have shared do not apply to marriages but the ones in Revelation do?

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Is he one of those people who feels only the new testament applies?

I say that because some people say the New testament is "more up to date" than the old, and hence abide by it rather than the old testament.

Here's a question:

Ask your DH what you submitting to him means. His answer will tell you all you need to know.


One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger

I will not spend my life this way.
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I'm sorry, but what a crock! You deserve better.

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[quote=karmasrose]Is he one of those people who feels only the new testament applies?
 Quote:
Not at all; he is a VERY little student of the entire Word of God.
[quote] I say that because some people say the New testament is "more up to date" than the old, and hence abide by it rather than the old testament.

He has actually taken the majority of the scriptures from the New Testament. We have always desired to adhere, align and trust and follow ALL the Word of God and not just what sounds easy to follow...that is why I am looking at this totally scripturally to see what he is seeing. I still think that D and DJ are in all this; the Holy Spirit is NOT speaking to me that this is how a man should treat and speak and discipline (?) his wife.

***The churches of Smyrna, Thyratira and Philadelphia are left out of the arguement because they do not include such repentance and rebuking as these do.

Revelation 2
1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. 4Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. 12And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; 13I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. 14But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. 15So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate. 16Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. 2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 7Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched,and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Along with the submission scriptures; these are mainly his reasons for demanding SF.
 Quote:
Here's a question:
Ask your DH what you submitting to him means. His answer will tell you all you need to know.

Submitting to him is:
1-when I have an idea and he discourages it; I drop it. He tries to talk me out of it and say that I am not being submissive if I "keep it up".
2-when I disagree with him on an idea of his; I do not discourage him with "facts" or my opinion or knowledge or "feelings" on the subject. I listen and agree.
3-when he wants SF, I am to initiate it. If I do not, I am not being submissive.
4-Yielding my will, thoughts and plans to him (I keep 95% to myself and H&O have suffered due to LBs of demands and DJ) I have friends who he is jealous of thinking of EA (with dear friend for years but we were always and have always been very close partners in ministry)
5-He has told me that he is not only authority but that I am inferior to him; but he has softened this up to say "You will NOT control me; I will NOT change!"

Submitting to me is:
1-Deferring to him for large and "family or marriage" issues
2-being able to speak freely without repercussion or attack.
3-Being free to trust and feel safe that the decisions that are made are for our good (which they usually are) and that
4-I am a viable, supportive, respected and active part of this partnership (marriage and family) who
5-supports and feel supported by him in all ways; just not SF, DS and Financial support.
6-following a trusted leader and friend who is not out just to meet his SF need!

I have been through verbal abuse (is what I have seen but D and DJ mainly with AO at times;)where LBs abounded until just about a month ago when we started reading Dr. Harley's books and then he seems to have to "find something" that I am "not doing perfectly"...well, I guess SF is IT. He seemed to understand EN and says that "he has been nice to be all day" but the entitlement attitude turned me off so much that I was sick to my stomach.

There is no counselor; male or female that I can confide in that he will listen to. One pastor called him "unteachble" just by what I had told him and he and his wife have a healing ministry for marriages. This has been going on so long that I am afraid that I will not love him enough (caring love) to try to provide SF for him at all. I feel emotional impotent in ways. I am sure that NO man on this board wants his bride to feel this way about him. Our hearts are fragile, we are the "weaker vessel" and need your understanding. I am back to feeling manipulated rather than loved. He feels that I withhold SF from him and that I do not love him...we talked about losing romantic love and JUST getting a little back before this "hit the fan". I am concerned about losing what caring love that I can still feel.

Last edited by dearheart; 03/02/09 06:59 AM.
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He doesn't love you. He owns you. Why would you want to stay with someone who doesn't cherish you and want to make YOU happy?

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Your H is a control freak, plain and simple. I bet he's bounced around in a lot of churches because he disagrees with some minor point of doctrine. Anyone or anything that questions his supreme dictatorship over you and his family must be from Satan. He demands to be king of the house and you are his servant. Am I close?

Your H should be the head of the household. That's scriptural. But he should act in a way that you WANT to submit to his leadership. Leadership is NOT lording authority over "inferior" subjects. It is setting an example by actions. He is commanded to love you as Christ loved the church (BTW, you are not commanded to love him, only to respect him). Christ showed love and compassion toward sinners with no expectation of anything in return. Christ put others before himself. Christ sacrificed his own life. You will never be able to freely submit to your H until he demonstrates this sort of unselfish love. You will only resent him more and more. It's this incorrect interpretation of scripture concerning the husband / wife relationship that is a major contributor to the high divorce rate in the Church.

Your H should read the description of the biblical wife in Proverbs 31. The woman in Proverbs 31 undoubtedly submits to her husband, but she also has freedom, power, and the respect of her husband. Her opinion matters, and her husband values the wisdom that she brings to the table.

Unfortunately, I don't think there is anything you can do to change your H. That will only happen if and when he has an epiphany. Just try to work on yourself and especially your self esteem.


"People will judge you by your actions, not your intentions."

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 Originally Posted By: believer
The scripture I'm familiar with is Esphesians 5:22-33

Ephesians 5:22-33 (New International Version)

Wives and Husbands
22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."[b] 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband


This is the scripture I think should most apply. You cannot take the submissive part of it wihtout including the fact that you love your wife as yourself. So does he think it's ok to make you do something as important as sex against your will. Is this how he would treat himself?


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Or as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it. Many people do not realize what a tall order that is. He gave Himself for the church- and He tells husbands that is how they are to love their wives. Has your husband forgotten that part?

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I hate this. I lived it for 12 years, and went to countless pastors for counseling, marriage seminars, read books, etc. He would not listen. I discovered a book on verbal abuse that really opened my eyes and I realized he was just using the Bible to bully me.....and that is NOT Chrisitianity or Christ like. Sadly, the only advice I can give you is to leave him; he'll never change, and you'll turn yourself inside out trying to live with it.


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I hate this. I lived it for 12 years, and went to countless pastors for counseling, marriage seminars, read books, etc. He would not listen. I discovered a book on verbal abuse that really opened my eyes and I realized he was just using the Bible to bully me.....and that is NOT Chrisitianity or Christ like. Sadly, the only advice I can give you is to leave him; he'll never change, and you'll turn yourself inside out trying to live with it.


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 Originally Posted By: xring67
Your H is a control freak, plain and simple. I bet he's bounced around in a lot of churches because he disagrees with some minor point of doctrine. Anyone or anything that questions his supreme dictatorship over you and his family must be from Satan. He demands to be king of the house and you are his servant. Am I close?


I think he has "right man syndrome", was just reading this today; Yes, xring; he has NOT attended church because though he does not expect them to be perfect (only the true bride of Christ will be spotless and pure; the wheat and tares grow together until the "harvest") and he is truly very critical of everyone; including me. He believes THAT HE IS the King of his home but he says that he does not want me to "be a servant" to him; part of this is; he would have to BE HUMBLE to receive from me when he can "Lord it over me" all that HE GIVES UP FOR ME. I am ready to STOP taking anything from him; today it was SWEET emails; he is preparing for SF tonight.

 Quote:
Your H should be the head of the household. That's scriptural.

He is the head of the house as far as I am concerned but he acts more like an evil master in his attitude.

 Quote:
But he should act in a way that you WANT to submit to his leadership. Leadership is NOT lording authority over "inferior" subjects.
He doesn't see where the bible tells him that that is NOT the way it should be done.

 Quote:
It is setting an example by actions. He is commanded to love you as Christ loved the church (BTW, you are not commanded to love him, only to respect him).


That is good; respect and caring love is as far as I can go and I feel that romantic love (a farce right now; only used to manipulate me for SF IMHO) and LOVE is really pretty meager. I don't feel like I have much to offer.

 Quote:
Christ showed love and compassion toward sinners with no expectation of anything in return. Christ put others before himself. Christ sacrificed his own life. You will never be able to freely submit to your H until he demonstrates this sort of unselfish love.

I don't feel safe in expressing how I feel at all; he twists it to become my problem and almost says "that I am sinning". He hasn't crossed that line yet. I truly feel that I have very little love; a bit of despising and I truly do not want to feel this way.
 Quote:
Your H should read the description of the biblical wife in Proverbs 31. The woman in Proverbs 31 undoubtedly submits to her husband, but she also has freedom, power, and the respect of her husband. Her opinion matters, and her husband values the wisdom that she brings to the table.

I brought this up the other day; he didn't have much to say about it.

 Quote:
Unfortunately, I don't think there is anything you can do to change your H. That will only happen if and when he has an epiphany. Just try to work on yourself and especially your self esteem.

I told him that "I talked with my Father today" and reminded him that He can talk to my Father (about us) as well. Actual email:

From ME:
I talked to my Father just today about this...
He told me that "I hear from him and He does correct me" and that your job is to be my husband and lover and friend; NOT some mean ole' teacher standing over me with a ruler. He doesn't like that at all. He has even told you that "I am the weaker vessel", He means that I am fragile and lovely; not weak or needy. If you crush me, I will break. If I break; my Father may not be very happy about it. He might even get angry. He certainly feels hurt when I cry out to Him. I hope that you can make a good enough offer; He has VERY high standards. Good may be good enough; but it has to be most sincere and from the heart.Let me know what He tells you.

His response (in caps as well)

YOUR FATHERS STANDARDS ARE VERY HIGH AND HE HAS WRITTEN OUT EXACTLY WHAT HE EXPECTS FROM BOTH OF US. HE WANTS US TO FOLLOW IT TO THE LETTER EVEN THOUGH WE MIGHT NOT UNDERSTAND WHY HE WANTS IT THAT WAY.HE HAS LET ME KNOW THAT YOU ARE VERY VULNERABLE ESPECIALLY WHEN SERPENTS COME AROUND WHISPERING, “Yea, hath God said… (GEN 2:1)”

HE WANTS ME TO KNOW YOU MIGHT NEED SOME BIBLICAL GUIDANCE WHEN THIS HAPPENS BECAUSE YOU ARE THE WEAKER VESSEL.THERE ARE A LIST OF QUESTIONS IN YOUR BIBLE YOU MAY WANT TO PONDER CONCERNING THIS.
LOVE,
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I appreciate prayers and I truly appreciate your kind and scriptural responses.

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Oh, puhleaze!

Maybe you need to try a different church. Find one that treasures equal marriages.

If you stay in this marriage, in 5 years, you'll either be an alcoholic or dead.

Where is his love for you?

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Dearheart, I encourage you to read James Dobson's Love Must Be Tough. It's full of scripture. Also, in Love Is a Decision, the author discusses how he used scripture to bully his wife and bring his marriage to the point of collapse. Only when she decided to leave him did he finally see what he was doing wrong. It took him a long time to earn her trust back. Because he had betrayed her this way.

You are asking us to give you scripture to try to reason with your husband with. Other folks have pointed it out, and you say, no, your H has already rejected these. Yes, dearheart, we get it, he's only interested in beating you down with scripture, not looking to get his path right at all. What about reading scripture and getting resources to lift YOURSELF up, and let your H work out his issues with Christ.

"But, no, if I only TRY HARDER, then he'd stop abusing me. If I only FIND THE RIGHT WORDS TO SAY, then he'd stop abusing me." No, if you stop continuing to volunteer to be abused, and start protecting yourself, that's when the abuse stops. You can do this!


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Your H is just like my FIL. He twists scripture to suite his own needs and to feel justified in correcting others. My MIL divorced him after 16 years of marriage. I don't know how she tolerated him that long. About 10 years ago, his 2nd wife left him for a few weeks. He made some changes and has treated her a little better since then, but he still has a self-serving, self righteous attitude. He also does not attend church anywhere because all of them (local churches) are full of false teachers that don't recognize his superior wisdom in understanding God's word.

Eph 5:25

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her


1 Cor 13:4-7

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.


How Christians should express love to one another, and especially the H to the W, is clearly explained in 1 Cor 13. If he doesn't see that, he truly is unteachable. Like I said earlier, he is supposed to lead by example, not dictate and whine about how much he sacrifices for you or anyone else in the family.

You ultimately will have to decide how long you can tolerate living with an abuser. I think you should consider taking a "vacation" alone. Maybe that will get his attention.


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