Thanks Pepperband.

I guess I am confused (AGAIN!)

If I let 'er rip am I not doing major LB nd DJ's? I thought I was supposed to be sucking all this up and making it stay out of the conversation. I am not very good at it. I can bring stuff up and talk rationally but then it often turns into DJ's and the occasional AO.

I hope GM does not read this....he cries so easily now. He just starts to talk about something and then tells me he loves me and starts to tear up. It happens a lot every day. I feel guilty adding to that because even though I know he did this I also know now that he is tremendously sorry but still.......every now and then I make him cry. Not really on purpose but I suspect it is because it helps me. I hate that but there it is. It makes me feel better, justifies the small part of me that is beginning to forgive some of this (just a teeny tiny amount). This is the worst part right now because I know it is wrong. I don't have to pay him back. I am becoming the person I was before he married me and I am happy to see her again, she was so happy and fun and had so much joy. That person can be angry and very sad but not need to pay it back. Does this make sense? Is normal or am I way out of whack here? I don't want to hurt him back, I did for a little while but that has been gone for a while. I am really just thrilled I did not go out and have a RA because I really really wanted to do that.

So that is why I worry about the 6 month deal. That is why I feel so badly when I do let 'er rip and boy can I do that. He takes it. He agrees with me. He understands and says I can do that whenever I need to because he deserves it and then he cries when I tell him how much it hurts but that I still love him.

Arghhhhh! I do not know what I am doing and I am afraid of blowing it.

I am just now having the marriage I thought I was getting almost 27 years ago and I do not want to blow it now.

Poor oven, what did it ever do to deserve that? LOL, that is great. I will go looking for one of my appliances to yell at. I LOVE it!

Hey Vittoria!

Hot flashes and panic attacks! You poor thing. I had panic attacks at one point and I thought they would kill me. I am certain the hot flashes are cooking me from the inside. Horrible things. Here is what I did. They gave me meds but I could not function with them during the day. I made myself sit and be quiet and started to breathe very purposefully (like what you tell your patients to do when they are nauseated). I closed my eyes and tried to see a blue spot develop. If I saw it but was still feeling the panic I would try then to get that blue spot to expand. By the time I gave up or did it the attack was over. I was sweaty but fine.


I think that is very wise. It is true. I have one very bad trigger and lots of smaller ones. The big one is when GM drives down our drive and then down the road. I used to sit here and watch him leave knowing in my heart he was not going to a meeting but going out to be with someone else. I would cry and shake and be scared. It happened every day for 6 years. Many of those times were actual meetings but toward the end when he was seeing her daily, probably the last 2 years, I just sobbed for hours it seemed. THAT trigger is hard. He has helped that by calling me from the road telling me that he loves me and will be home soon and asks me to use the phone and track him. I wish he would do that all the time but I am always glad when he does.

Should we start a dream discussion? I have two dreams that keep coming back and when I wake I have a terrible day until I can just let it go. Sometimes I think it helps to discuss them. They are not difficult to figure out but they do torment you. I would love to do that if you think it would help.

Well, I am a month behind you. Let me know if you get smacked with a 6 month anger spree. We will be around if you need to just post to get it out.

Sending you hugs and wishes for a dreamless night.

No. You are not supposed to bury your honest grief.
You've sucked it up for years. No more.

And, no where in my post did I mention saying/doing anything in front of GM.
He can watch if he wants to.




OK - this part is written by Nurse Mildred Ratched, so gird your loins ~~~ :MrEEk:

Too damn bad for GM . You being honest with your emotions is part of the healing process. He has to "suck it up", not you, princess. He owns his reaction. You are not guilty - not not not.

Next time you think you are "guilty" post about it and one of us will either tell you:

"Yes, you did a bad thing. Feel guilty about it, briefly."

Or (more likely) someone will say

"Are you nuckinfutz? You did not do anything you ought feel guilty about."

Don't own GM's emotional roller coaster or else Pep ~~~>




BTW, this is where the "6 month rage" comes from. When you soften towards the WS - it makes you madder and madder. You will be at your most vulnerable of having an inappropriate relationship yourself. You will be mad at yourself for forgiving such a load of crap --- then you have to forgive yourself for forgiving your spouse --- basically, it's a glorious mess

You're not blowing anything. You cannot imagine the crap I put Mr Pep though - and I adore his highness soooooooooooo much today.
LOL afterthought

I think that is a show he would prefer to miss. Gotcha, he is with me all the time so I will just have to excuse myself. If he won't leave he can catch the incoming.

"If Mr. McMurphy(GM) doesn't want to take his medication orally, I'm sure we can arrange that he can have it some other way. But I don't think that he would like it." Nurse Ratched

He broke it, he owns it.

Of course I am nuckinfutz, this rollercoaster SUCKS!

Oooh, so going to the MB weekend just before the 6 month mark might not be so good. Going anyway but I am now forewarned. I appreciate that. Interesting. It makes perfect sense that forgiving that "load of crap" would make one angry.

My houseguest friend offered to get me an escort of my very own so I could do on my bed what GM did on my bed and then let him sleep in it 5 hours later like he let me do. Ooops, I am soooooo sorry. I forgot to change the sheets before you laid down to sleep last night. Yes, I would love revenge but I would not sink to that. Still, what kind of an a**hat lets his wife sleep on sheets he just did his girlfriend on? GM has changed, partly because he sees just how completely horrible he had become. I suppose his trickle truth saved him. If I had known about that in the first month he would have been castrated and left on the side of the road. Should have been anyway. Does your brain ever get tired of making your heart feel stupid? :crosseyedcrazy:

Another question, always another question.

For those of you who have dealt with addictions I have to ask this question.

This morning GM was telling me that he is certain that he will never cheat again. **RED FLAG** His reason is that he will read and know his EN's and EP's and never let it happen again.

From what I remember of AlAnon that is not the correct response for an addict. He is addicted to the risk, and the admiration. My thoughts are that the moment he becomes certain and a pretty young redhead in spike heels says something flattering that certainty of his will be rapidly pushed aside. The excuse is that he is CERTAIN he will never cheat again so how can this one time flirt be a problem? So he flirts back, it feels great (he is still certain he will never cheat). She pushes a bit more, they exchange phone numbers or email or simply hop into bed right then (the most likely with him) and there it goes. If nothing else this will become another woman to have another EA with.

Am I way out of my mind here? This fits GM, this is exactly what I have seen him do before when he shoved me aside (really shoved me aside) and made his way through a crowd to be with another woman who had flirted with him before. Even if he does care about me now I will never be risky. My admiration will always pale in comparison with another woman's new admiration. I am the known. She is the possibility. IOW, he will want to know that feeling again just one more time. Just once. That is the addict and that is what I fear.

I love that he has the EP's in place and that we go over them weekly. They are good, detailed and I trust them. I trust him to use them when he thinks he could be at risk or just in every day circumstances. I do not trust his being certain that he will never cheat. It will take one time, that is all. Even if I fill all of his EN's I will never present the thrill of getting away with something. Even if he knows his EP's all it will take is that certainty that it will not lead to cheating to allow each hazardous step to occur. Just this once. Just to feel that again, just this once. What could it hurt? It feels too good and SSS will never know.

Sorry for all the repetitions, it helps me think.

Am I making this too hard?

Do you trust yourself to dump him immediately at GM's first breech of boundary? The first toe over the line?

Do you trust yourself to NOT move your boundary?

Are you aware that YOU maintain your boundary about what you will and will not live with? GM has nothing to do with it!

Are you certain that if GM so much as any flirts with another female you will end the marriage?

Sister, this is really your decision to make ~~~" "Where is my absolute line?"

And, I don't expect you know right now. It's still formulating in your mind. You'll get there.

Your question reflects your self doubt, not doubts you have about GM, but doubts about your resolve and your determination that there will be no more ... no more straws on your back, no feathers, no mosquitoes, and certainly no hurtful and obnoxious behavior.

Gotcha and thanks. I am going to have to chew on this a while to make it work in my brain.

Yes, I will hold my boundaries and I will dump at the first toe over the line.

I have one boundary now and it is the bottom one because I expect a real marriage and he has lots to live up to to make that happen. My bottom boundary is that he will not cheat or even come close to cheating. The first sign of inappropriate behavior is the end. I will determine those using his very own EP's.

He knows this. I guess it remains to be seen if I am more important than his need for risk and extra admiration.

The rest will come when we start to find some solid ground.

Oh wait! I get it already. It is my decision. He can either make it work or be gone. Right? Maybe not? Geeze, for someone who thinks they are smart I can certainly be insecure and dense! This whole thing has screwed<<<you can't say that?>>>OK it has messed me up so much I can't even think rationally half the time.

POJA everything but your boundaries.
Your boundaries were very very vague in the past, it is only natural that you will be uncertain how to do this - it's your first time

You will learn POJA skills at the seminar.

I'm just wanting to refocus you on YOU when I see that you are wandering off into GM's emotional/spiritual quagmire .... trying to fix him.

Your tasks are different than his.
Don't mother him.
Learn to love him like a wife .... (oh, crap, I just know this comment is going to set you reeling into the goat dance )

Hi sss,

About the 6 month mark...

For me, that was the period of time I was more mad at OW than FWH. Yes there was anger and questioning myself for staying, but not an exploding kind of anger. Perhaps that is because I had already ripped off FWH skin prior to finding MB.

There was a time I wanted to hurt him and a time I didn't care if I hurt him; either way FWH was going to hear it. The latter was the worst for me because I felt like I was losing myself at that point. You are not whacked. I had moments of guilty pleasure for making FWH feel like dirt after all I had been through. Like you, it did help me heal in some ways. I would have resented not getting certain things off my chest. If FWH was going to cry about it...oh well. The truth can hurt. I don't feel that way anymore. I said what I wanted to say (and then some LOL) but the worst was over for me long before we were 6 months out.

They are developing and I agree, they have been vague but they will be mine.


Good, that will be helpful.


I do not want his problems. It may be no fun on this end but I know it is not fun on his either. You are right again, I can't fix him. He has to want that and do that himself.


I am looking forward to being a wife with a real, actual husband.
I am tired of being a mother to everyone.

Believe me when I tell you that the goat dance is far and away preferable to the Hampster dance.

LOL LOL LOL black_raven

I too have ripped off GM's skin. I have said things that I am ashamed of. He deserved them and probably more but my limited imagination contained what might have been worse.

I would love to lay into the OW. I have met her but then it was GM introducing his unloved and unlovable wife to the girlfriend he was newly and totally in love with. Kind of him wasn't it? He invited her over, there was a crowd at a home show. I guess that was when she picked out the rooms she wanted to have sex with him in. YIKES! Sorry. I am not going to erase that, I apparently needed to get that out.

It was all GM's fault so my anger at her is often so I am not laying into him again. She is not worth getting angry at, she is most always too drunk or stoned to care. Hopefully after today she will be in jail. Today is her trial for Meth possession.

Your story gives me hope. I have not been one to hold back anything. Perhaps it will be that way with me too.

Thank you!!!

While I don't regret the AOs and DJs, I do feel ashamed of a few things I said to H. I didn't even go to church for a long time afterwards because they were outright cruel.

Meth possession? Nice. Hopefully justice will prevail and the hag will meet some interesting people in jail who don't like her.

Or some REALLY interesting people who DO like her.
You know.
In "that" way.

Lol I kinda meant it that way too. It depends on the way you look at it.

Welllll, me too. I figure after being totally independent and not even knowing I existed for the first 26 1/2 years of our marriage it was about time he heard what I thought of him all those years. It will make the nice me that seems to be coming back seem even nicer. :twobyfour:



She was stoned, drunk and holding a used meth pipe when the cops stopped her. She refused drugs testing so they took her license and now, if she gets it back, she has to spend tons of money to get all the little testing gadgets so she does not drive like that again. That is why she was trying to blackmail GM for more money.


It would save me some time and possible arrest if they took care of that for me now wouldn't it? This old pacifist is not unhappy that she is smiling at the thought, embarrassed maybe but still smiling.

Schadenfreude!

Guilty 1st count: Drug possession

Guilty 2nd count: DUI

Woman is in serious trouble now. She is undergoing a PSI before sentencing next month. We looked at the criteria for the PSI and she is in trouble now. There is nothing positive to come of that.

Now we await the 3rd attempt at blackmail. If it comes, and I can't imagine it will not, GM will turn it and the other that we still have into the court.

She might just skip the state again but her disability checks would probably stop then. She will have to depend on the mattress now to get all her money and she just ain't that good (I say this knowing she was apparently good enough to do my husband for 6 years ).

It stuns me knowing GM the way I do that he would have anything at all to do with this woman. We celebrated once already. Some things just bring a couple together ya know?

I am feeling reflective, that is good, but depressed, that seems normal. It is cloudy and the Kansas air is heavy with moisture and the promise of storms, my favorite time of year.

I dunno. I simply do not know what to do or what I will do. I see a man frequently in tears. He seems as remorseful as a person can be. He is getting out from under all his obligations, everything that filled his need for admiration in order to spend the time with me and work on our marriage. He is leading the way here as I am a basket case much of the time. A basket case emotionally but my mind is pretty clear and I do not like what I see.

I think my major confusion comes from wondering why I am still here. This is not like me, to stay with someone who has done this kind of thing. Actually I am the one who would be most likely to have had the affair, he had no reason to treat me this way and do what he did except ego, entitlement and the need to thrill seek. I was there, I was everything a wife should be, I had his children and raised them into two very successful, wonderful human beings. I did everything and continued to woo him until it was apparent he was not home, ever, even when he was. I still tried, constantly looking for the hook to bring him back to me. I considered myself a failure, I hated myself. I was everything my parents had told me, a nothing and worthless. Eventually I did learn to live my own life. I was reluctant to do it because I wanted to be married to him, not live an independent life. I became successful at what I did. Then I started to not really care too much what he was up to. I was too busy with children and everything I made for myself to keep busy and interested. Still I tried, every few weeks I would do something to see if I could get a reaction, any reaction. Mostly he would be angry, that was OK, it was something. God I see now what a pitiful mess I had become. He did not know that, he did not see me. I knew what he was doing but did not know what he was up to. I knew but was afraid to really know. I WANTED to be married, I WANTED to be married to him because the man I married existed to everyone else. What did I do wrong? Why was I not good enough?

OK, this is not what I intended to write.....back to what I started to write.

I have figured out many things about myself since D day thanks to this forum, SSA, Steve Harley and Pepperband in particular who has poked and prodded me through this (I thank you so much for that) and I thank you all. I have figured out the real source of my confusion (as if all of the above and the rest of the story was not enough). I am devastated as you all are. My love light went out a long time ago with no hope of recovery and I was biding my time. The reassurances that I was the only one, I was loved, we were OK kept me hoping and now I find all of this out, he was living his life with someone else the same time he was telling me these things and keeping me on the hook. So on top of it my entire married life has been one big lie. I have trouble even looking at baby pictures now and the hours of video tape will probably remain in a box since I can't even stand the thought of putting myself through them. So on D day I find myself in the interesting position of having and amazingly remorseful WH. He is working his rear end off trying to make this work doing everything right. He says the old WH is dead and I think that is true. He treats me like a queen and seems interested in every thing about me. I am now his life. So, what to do? I have a plan with Steve. It is a lovely plan, it makes sense and I think it just might work in the long run but why am I still here? That does not help my self esteem at all, to be still here crying and acting out and yelling until my head hurts. I am over medicated and still going through the worst pain I have ever felt. Why am I putting myself through this after all? I do not need him. I am not afraid of being alone, I have been alone my entire married life. I can pay bills, keep up this farm alone etc. I have been doing that my entire married life. I do not need this pain. I do not really need this man.

How does a person decide what to do? I finally have a marriage! He loves me! He treats me like I always expected to be treated! He is interested in me! I come first! He is stopping his life to be with me and make one for us! I finally have what I married him for so what do I do now? This question is the big one for me. As I set very strict boundaries for WH to follow, with the knowledge that I will throw him out if he crosses them, I feel more secure. More secure in myself. What is the place that I am in right now? Is this a typical place that I just have not figured out? I have what I always wanted but do I still? Yes. Should I? No. Do I know? No.

I do know that this is my last chance for marriage or any relationship for that matter. If this does not work out I will be content with my children and hopefully grands someday and content to be by myself. I will never risk this kind of pain again. Can I live with knowing I failed this? There can't be a good feeling in the world worth this kind of risk and pain. One last chance.....

OK, I feel like a whiny baby. I AM a whiny baby. A big, 55 year old, whiny baby. Attractive :RollieEyes:. Can someone tell me what it is I am missing or not figuring out? I think if I can find out I can move on some way or another. :twobyfour:

This rollercoaster is a white knuckle ride for sure.

Quote

I think my major confusion comes from wondering why I am still here.

Dances_with_goats, you inadvertently answered your question.

Quote

I was everything my parents had told me, a nothing and worthless.

You were never good enough and never perfect enough to please your parents.
Soooooooooooo - you marry a hard target, a narcissistic difficult man, because if one thing is going to change your parents' voices inside your head that scream "failure failure failure" .... it is winning over an impossible man.

I could be wrong, but it seems you are "still here" in order to prove your parents were wrong.

Maybe? maybe not? maybe I'm full of crap today (won't be the first time either)

I would agree except that I long ago dealt with that issue. They have both been gone a long time. The very first MC that GM and I went to ended up doing a lot for me (GM paid little attention to him) and that was one of the issues we ended, my feeling the way they wanted me to feel. Except for the ego GM was actually not like that at all until we married. He was seriously the nicest most supportive man I have ever known. Soooo, while there is probably some merit to what you say it can't be all or even much of it (I hope). I have been in treatment for my abusive childhood for a long time and I have pretty much been able to let it go with help of meds for the PTSD.

Nah, you are not full of crap. It makes perfect sense but not as much as you would think this time.

I hate these down times. It will course back up pretty soon. Thanks!

Sadsosad, I think you said that your husband had not been diagnosed with a character disorder. Did they base this on interviewing him or did they interview people that he interacted with? If that diagnosis was only based on interviewing him, well, it wouldn't take much for an intelligent person, especially one in the medical field, to easily get up to speed on what the psychiatrist would be looking for in order to avoid that diagnosis.

Are you familiar with the Psychopathy Checklist by Dr. Robert Hare? It is now believed by some that as much as 4% of the population could be diagnosed as a psychopath. Before you freak out, they are not talking about Ted Bundy types, but people who have no empathy or conscience. I think that if (and of course it's a big if) your husband had no empathy or conscience, it would explain why your marriage has been so horrible--there was never anything you ever could have done.

Some of the red flags that your husband shows:
1. risk taking behavior--the hookers, the STD (a DOCTOR who catches gonorrhea!), the drugs
2. possible cover up--the "breakdown" when you were about to totally bust him, the tears
3. marrying someone very empathic (you're a nurse, if I'm not mistaken)

If you are at all interested in pursuing this, I can give you the titles of some books on the topic that were really illuminating to me. The 4% psycho hypothesis really helped to explain a lot of other people's behaviors that were making me crazy!