My wife has a call to Steve Harley this Friday. Good grief I hope it helps. She's just trying to bury herself in work and her own little world, which is probably pretty normal with withdrawal. The continued self-centered focus is very painful for me, but I'm gaining more and more traction on the ME front. Just gotta keep movin' forward. Who can resist a positive, skinny, motivated super-husband? Nobody! Feeling kinda separate from her right now, which is to be expected. She certainly isn’t taking me into account with many of her decisions. I'm taking her into account, but I'm not depending on her like I used to. No signs of neediness, just support and strength. Hope I can keep it up!

I've come up with kind of a 6 month timeline for myself. I want to run this by you good people and Dr. Harley and friends and family. Right now I don't really feel like we can be together. I just don't like who she's become, and I worry that her habits and coping mechanisms won't change and I'll be dealing with these same issues forever. I'm almost living as a single dad right now anyway. If she can't change some of these things about herself, I don't want to stay with her. I know my marriage won't be fixed in 6 months, but I think I will see some direction by then. That's a re-evaluation time, not necessarily a decision time.

I read somewhere else that you should delay the divorce decision until your marriage is back on its feet. I would think that you wouldn't want to be divorced if you are back on your feet. Point is to delay the decision until you have really given it your all and you have a lot more perspective. I'll just have to see how the coming months unfold.

Zen,
I'm not making excuses for your wife's behavior- but I wonder something? Has she ever been evaluated by a psych? The reason I ask is that I'm mildly bipolar. You mentioned earlier in a post that she drives pretty crazy. Agressive risk taking behaviors such as driving irratically and an acting out sexually are sometimes symptoms of being bipolar. Many people who are bipolar drink too because it helps them cope. Just a thought. Has she ever been on Anti D's???

Ya know she has some mental issues in her family, so this might be it, but frankly, I think this is defensive/stress/coping behavior. We've had about 9 years of stability in our relationship, which is kinda what keeps me hoping this can be saved. I do hope she seeks some real help through this, because she always thinks she knows best. I think I know best too! One of the reasons were great and terrible together.

She was on an anti-anxiety med for a bit, said she was depending on it a little too much and got off it. Did some cognitive speech therapy which really seemed to help.

Maybe down the road I can bring this up, but I don't think it'd be good right now!

Great job getting her to talk to Harley! Mega points for Steve McGhandi!

And being the calm, cool, working on himself guy...more mega points! Keep that up.

Remember, her brain fell out of her head...and she's probably trying to find it before she puts it back in her brain.

My wife did pretty much the same thing...dug herself in to work, self absorbed, self-centered, etc. Your wife WILL come out of this, but it's going to take time. I believe those around here talk about strong Plan A...and when your WW not responding, head to Plan B to protect yourself from loosing all your love for her, running your love bank dry.

I think you have a long way to go before heading to Plan B (or even Plan D) Zen!

Plant the seed of her seeing a shrink or psych about her mental health. Ask her about her family history...then leave it for a week or so. Then revisit and ask if she's ever felt unbalanced...then leave for a week (plant those seeds, then let them grow...)

Pretty soon she will pull out of this fog / withdrawal and begin listening to you more closely. If she's anything the hard-headed, stubborn woman my wife is, you have lots of seeds to plant...and lots of watering to do!

Hang in there. Reading your posts and hearing your kind words is helping me a ton. Hopefully I'm doing the same for you!

Keep strong! Keep Steve McGhandi going full bore! D.

Thanks my friend! Your encouragement is truly appreciated. looking back at my post, I sound more pesimistic than I feel. I'm just trying to keep my bar high, while looking at the reality of the situation. I know we're just starting this process and it could still fall apart at any moment. I will Plan A indefinitely as long as she's not headed out the door. Plan B or D is for when she screws up again, or when I realize she's incapable of doing her part. Either way, I'm committed to just sticking with the program for the foreseeable future. I say 6 months because it helps me to have some goal. It's not a deadline to make a decision, it's a deadline to withhold from decision making. It will keep me sane if insanity is looming large.

Really I think we're headed in a good direction. Wednesday will be two weeks. Pretty good banter and chatter with her today. Going out for a family dinner. Salvadoran food. Yum!

Thanks everybody!

A reminder that during her withdrawal, do not expect huge response to Plan A tactics.

Hang in. Continue improve your personal growth.

If it is any encouragement, the event of infidelity has changed many people lives to the better. Reevaluation has brought about new growth and understanding about themselves as well as better relation with those they love.

Yeah, here's an example of the withdrawal behavior:

Went out to restaurant last night. It's one of our favorites. The food was delicious, I was in a great mood and the kids were behaving. My wife was in an OK mood, but kinda distant and impatient with the kids. She's always had less patience with the kids than me, but she was extra grumpy last night.

Got home and she cuddled up with the kids for a little TV before bed. She told me she'd pay me $20 to put the kids to bed by myself (way back in pre-affair days, this was a shared ritual - I've been doing about 90% for the last few months). I was peeved, but agreed to cheerfully. She was out like a light when I got back. Every morning she lounges in bed while I get the kids ready and make breakfast. Then mostly talks about how tired she is and how much work she has. As warned, she's definitely a bump on a log.

But, she is responding to my Plan A stuff, so there's some progress. Thanks me for all my work - responds to kisses and massages, even reaches out to me every once in awhile. It's nowhere near a level I could live with for the long term, but I feel like there's steady movement back to US on her part. So yes, Plan A is still alive and well and my patience is that of a stone. I'm relying pretty heavily on MB information, and from all I've read, I'd say she's doing alright considering we're at 2 weeks tomorrow. I should expect a couple more weeks of really deep depression from her, then several months of lessening withdrawal. Fun!

Zen whatever other problems you have, I must say that you do dine well!

Ha, thanks! Food was this huge connection for us in the beginning, and it's totally become that again. It's funny because before all this, we have this fairytale perfect life in many ways, real and superficial. I do not kid when I say that I have everything I want. So many of our friends are shocked about this mess because we were that couple who seemed to have it all together. I still feel like that is there, but the MOST important piece is severely damaged now. I'd lose all the rest of the STUFF to fix what is broken. I hope we can.

I just want to announce that I'm having a brief moment of real joy and contentedness. It may be brief, but I'll shout it from the top of a hill.

Reading some of these helped:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0196229/quotes

Well that contentedness could only last so long...

Got a text from my wife ranting about how crappy one of the questionnaires from Dr. Harley is. It's kind of a self-esteem questionnaire. Says how she feels great about herself, she's doing nothing wrong, no guilt or self-hate. (Exactly the opposite of what she said when she came back last time, and right after D-day).

At least she followed that by saying she felt good and honest and that she was doing the right thing now (recovery?). Didn't feel guilty about her current actions, the past (affair?) yes, but not now.

It's good, but this is kinda what I'm afraid of. To avoid the pain, she'll just move right into fix-it mode, without actually fixing it.

Talked about her depression. Some suicidal thoughts about driving her car into the other lane. Said she knew it was self-indulgent, so she won't. Through this mess, I kinda get the self-indulgent call to attention that destructive behavior is. I never really got it before.

This is a little hard to decipher in this format, but anyone wanting to read an IM conversation with someone going through heavy withdrawal, here it is: Me and my wife - talking about personality worksheet from Dr. Harley:

Wife: personality one?
WTF?
how f*cking simple can you be??
yes, I have a high self esteem, no I don't blame my problems on other popel
duh
not "you" simple
sorry
me: I took it as a quick way to evaluate how you feel about yourself.
for the therapist's sake
Wife: yeah - but it's too simple to get a true feeling
me: yeah, probably
Sent at 10:45 AM on Tuesday
Wife: and 'have you ever been disciplined in school' - questions like that - only the
biggest of 'pleaser' haven't been and even they have had their name on the board once, so what a hugely open ended question - I was actually very good in school but I've gotten in trouble so does that mean I'm a delinquent? it's too simple of a question - or someone that was delinquent is in the same catagory as a name on the board??
me: I may be wrong, but I think this is more about how you feel about yourself. Like I've been in trouble at school several times, but I don't think I was a trouble maker overall. Like you.
Sent at 10:48 AM on Tuesday
me: If you aren't comfortable answering a question, I'm sure you can leave it blank.
Wife: I actually feel fine about myself .
me: good!
Wife: I have a lot of depression right now and anxiety, and I'm losing my hair and I want to crash my car in the morning, but I don't feel like I'm doing anything wrong
so, I have no guilt or anger or self-hate
Sent at 10:51 AM on Tuesday
me: What do you feel good
about?
Wife: well, I'm trying and I'm doing what is right and I have nothing to feel guilty about
well - I don't mean nothing as in past I mean as in now
me: I think that's excellent
Wife: so, I can say I'm being honest and that I'm doing what I should be doing
doesn't mean I like it every second of every day
and it's hard to get out of bed every morning
and I don't want to do anything
I can see my scalp through my hair
me: Oh Sweety
Wife: I feel mildly high when I drive to work
like - no matter what I'm not right
I feel like I could be convicted of
a DUI - sort of off
so if I just drove in to another car and ended up in a coma I could just sleep it all off
I know to you that seems so self indulgent
and it is and I wouldn't
me: Dunno if it helps, but from stuff I've read, that is a very common feeling in your position.
Wife: my position
me: Someone who has come back from an affair. Early on.
I so don't want to be in a position to analyze you. like you said when you came back, you will do the work, and I think you have to choose your tools.
Speaking from my experience through this... That 'doing what is right' has been a very strengthening thing
Takes a long time to overcome all the other feelings though.
Sent at 10:58 AM on Tuesday
Wife: I have my on days and off days
am I supposed to print these and fill them out or am I supposed to send them back?
me: send them back
He didn't refer to them when I talked to him.
Wife: ok, that's more weird
me: I suspect it's kinda basic therapist tool. He went right to the meat of the issue when I talked to him. Talked about immediate steps and action which I appreciated. Helped the anxiety.
Sent at 11:04 AM on Tuesday
Wife: I see
the love bank inventory
me: Oh and yes it's self-
indulgent, but I get it.
Wife: there are blanks - I assume that I'm supposed to be referring to you when I answer
Like, am I supposed to put in me, the kids, what?
I can't fil in the blank
so...
it's odd
I experience a good feeling when I think about......food!
me: second one?
Wife: yeah
it's weird
me: lemme see
oh yeah, this is about feelings toward me.
blank is me
me is blank
Wife: yeah, I figured that out, it was just confusing at first - it should say that
me: yeah, took me a sec too
Wife: ok, good, I don't feel like an a*shole then
me: I had to think, 'current feeling' or 'before feelings'. I think current feelings is accurate
Wife: yeah, I did current
me: ya know, I get the self-indulgent, self-destruct thing more than before.
Wife: took you awhile to write that. what did you delete?
me: ha, reading something else
Wife: oh
me: I was going to say that I have only experienced it mildly because I have not experienced depression on that level. Didn't think it would help us connect
though
But, being honest, there ya go.
Wife: didn't think being self-indulgent would help us connect?
don't get it
you should be honest
if you feel a certain way
say it
I have been and it's not fair
me: I mean saying that I
havent't experienced it on that level
Wife: I'm the only one saying an ything negative
Sent at 11:19 AM on Tuesday
me: I agree to some extent but I think total honesty at times would destroy whatever little thing we're clinging to.
I think we need to do some repair
Wife: yeah, I get that
me: If I told you how deeply hurt I am all the time, would it make you want to stick around? Make you want to help me?
Sent at 11:21 AM on Tuesday
me: I'm tired of fear though. Tired of being afraid of outcomes. Tired of eggshells. But I think I know where I need to be right now
Hope and the past are just as valid as the pain and uncertainty
Wife: agreed but I'm still scared
me: So I choose hope and the big picture.
Wife: what if I can't come back? what if you can't get over it? then - what, am I still an a*shole after trying?
me too - but i can't help but being scared
me: I dunno how to answer that.
Do what's right is what I cling
to.
Do what's right for me and the kids. And you.
Wife: me too
uh
me: It IS right.
Wife: I do, but I don't put me last necessarily -
or first
just all the same
me: Your take on that is up to you.
Wife: what is right?
my take on that??
wtf
me: Yeah, it is the big picture.
I just mean I can only control me, as you know
Wife: that is overly simplified
Sent at 11:26 AM on Tuesday
me: Look, if I didn't care deeply about you, I would not keep trying. BUT. This goes
nowhere if you don't work just as hard as me. I can only control me, so I have no intention of trying to, or trying to always second guess.
We can only control ourselves, yes?
Wife: I am!@!!
jesus
logging out.
working
sorry
this is too much stress
I'm freaking out
and I'm f*cking at work
I have a lot of deliverables
and I'm a f*cking wreck
Sent at 11:30 AM on Tuesday
me: It's OK. I know.
Sent at 11:31 AM on Tuesday
Wife: no, it's no ok. I'm
f*cking stressed out, crying and at work - I can't concentrate
this is f*cked
I'm tired, worn out, depressed, anxiety ridden, on the verge of breaking, and I still have to maintain
I have no choice but to keep trying on every front

Sent at 11:34 AM on Tuesday
me: can you get the kids tonight?
meeting friend
Wife: you bet
me: thank you.
Wife: sure
Wife: jesus, 2 giant cups of coffee and my face still feels like I just got out of bed
Sent at 11:44 AM on Tuesday
Wife: peppermint tea
can we meet earlier if I'm picking up the kids
me: argh. Sorry. anything I can do to help, please ask.
Yeah, 12:15?

Wowza, she's close to snapping. Ugh I wish I could help her! This is the follow-up after a very nice lunch with her:

Me:

This is hard to articulate, but I want to be clear about something that may not have come out well in our chat. I still care about you like no one else. If there’s some way I can help you through this, I want to be able to. I am your husband and I take that role very seriously. It’s hard for me to make myself vulnerable right now, but I know I have to in order to rebuild. If you need to rely on me, if you need to ask me for anything, please do.

Thanks for lunch.

Wife:

I'm stressed out beyond belief. really, really stressed. my work load is still insane and every hour I spend dwelling on our issues, makes me more stressed about my workload not getting done. I could work all night through and not catch up. the idea of talking to a marriage counselor on a work day preemptively stresses me out. I'm almost always on a high-anxiety level point - I can feel my heart beating super fast and adrenaline coursing. I need to be able to block out my personal life during work so that I can concentrate and that isn't happening and my work is suffering.

lunch was nice, thank you.



It's weird, because I want to help her, and I want her to not feel this way... but feeling a little detached and just ready for either way. This has been my fear from d-day. Even if she wants to fix it, she's incapable. All I can do is give her a safe place at home. I'm doing that to the best of my ability! She's in the sink or swim position. I would not want to be in her shoes. So, will she calm down and keep going? Will she fly out the door and back to OM? Will she just spontaneously explode into confetti? I'd say any one of those is just as likely as the other right now.

Ha I think I’m posting more than you folks can keep up with. It's as much a journal as anything I guess.

I went and had dinner and a movie with a friend last night. Spoke to my wife briefly and she sounded cheerful but harried taking care of the kids. She's been so absent that I'm glad she can spend some time with them. I think it helps her remember why she's here (or will drive her crazy and send her packing again).

Got home and chatted for awhile. Decent night's sleep although I could tell she was restless. Here's an interesting question I will pose to you dear people: In bed I really want to re-establish touch and closeness; not sexual necessarily, just comfortable physical closeness. She's not resistant to it at all, in fact talked about needing this cuddle time at first, but not reaching out to me as much as I reach out to her. Probably a good illustration of our respective love banks. I don't want to appear too needy and pushy in this regard, so what's your take on that? Back off and let her come to me on her own time, or keep up the current level? This morning I was cuddling up next to her and she said I was making her want to stay in bed instead of get up for work. Then she rolled over and curled up next to me. That was nice. I need more of this. I almost feel like I should just keep treating her as my wife and initiate romance and touch whenever I feel the time is right. It's up to her to communicate if it's unwanted or uncomfortable. I just don't want her to do it out of obligation. On top of that, the rejection would be pretty hard to take at this point. Buuuuut, how much worse can she hurt me than she already has? No fear!!!

Feeling kind of melancholy today. That loss of specialness and closeness is hitting me pretty hard. Feeling lonely. I have wonderful friends and family and you good people, but that's not the same as the husband and wife relationship. Knowing you're the one and only for someone. I'm so sad that it's gone for now, maybe never to return. Steve McGandhi must stay strong.

On the upside, it's sunny today!!! I'm going to have a lunch with my wife's friend who blew the whistle. They're still very angry with each other. Not only has she been a great friend, but she knows the OM and I will see if I can glean a little info from her. I know she's gotten pretty tired of being in the middle of this, so she may not be willing to share. I'll try not to push, but it has been a very valuable resource for me, and the MAIN reason my wife is so angry at her.

It sounds like great progress to me. As for the cuddling, I would do more hit and miss, as in do some, but don't do it consistently, you know, like you every once in a while just have an urge to hug her, something like that. So she won't start dreading being around you because she associates it with cuddling.

Progress? Yes, on the surface it feels that way... But man I worry about her depression and her ability to keep it at bay. I wish she'd seek some help for it. The suicidal thoughts really scare me. The only thing that makes it less scary is reading that it is totally normal in withdrawal.

OK, I'm going for a jog in the sunshine. Please please please, Spring time - I need some Sun!!!

Interesting day. Very little contact with wife. I had lunch with her friend - the Whistle Blower. I should say ex-friend. Talked and talked and talked. She wanted to know what my boundaries in this are. It was a good question. She asked what my wife could do that would be instant grounds for divorce. I had trouble answering that. I guess I don’t feel like I could make that decision in an instant. There are several things that would certainly send me down that path... Getting back with OM or having another affair would probably be the deal breaker at this point. There are other things though... Not respecting boundaries I will set forth, not returning efforts in marriage, self-destructive behavior, substance abuse... I think any of this would certainly get me thinking in that direction because I have the bar set high.

It's scary talking to this friend because she has seen my wife go from the woman I knew at home to the party animal/affair lady. She sees all the out-of-control and attention getting behavior that I seldom saw. I asked her point blank: Do you think she can be the person I want her to be? She said, 'Nope'. Scary. That's the big question I'm contemplating. Can I separate the affair behavior with the 'real' wife? Who is the 'real' wife? This is what I will set out to find in the coming months. If the crazy bullsh*t continues, I think I'll have my answer. I had stopped going out with my wife very often for quite awhile, and I think she really let loose when I wasn’t there. So that's the question: Was I the one keeping her in check? I sure as heck don't want to be that person. I want someone who keeps herself in check. I thought that was my wife, but from so much of the conversation tonight, her friend thinks it was suppressed behavior in her. Argh, this is so hard!!! I've heard people who move on to divorce, especially in unhealthy and abusive relationships describe being able to finally see their spouse as other people see her. Now with us, this is the only friend who is saying, she's too nuts. All my friends and family want this to work. This is one of her dearest friends! So, is this an emotional reaction to their conflict? Is this an observation of my wife headed down a destructive path, but not necessarily the whole picture (they've only been good friends for a little over a year)? Is this just the truth of it: She's too screwy or damaged for me to really be comfortable again.

I look back on our history and she was definitely TOO MUCH at the beginning, and sometimes during, but not more than I could live with. I was the knight in shining armor taming her and providing a strength and stability that she never had. I knew it at the time and we never really re-addressed the issue as she became more stable. This became a problem for her I think. I look at our history and I think we had many very good years. It's so hard not to be overly influenced by recent events. I must give this the time and effort it deserves. But dang it I can't shake the reservations!

My wife wanted to go out with a girlfriend tonight. Sigh. I told her it makes me uncomfortable, but we can discuss how I can be reassured. She suggested that she's in her frumpy work clothes, she'll text me several times while there etc. I told her that I'm so tired of waiting up for her I need to know that she is putting our marriage first. She said that she is. It was a good conversation where she was on the verge of being defensive, but for once, didn't indulge! I just kept telling her that I need to see more steps on her part, other than her just being home. I need reassurance and I need her to live by the promises she made in returning home. Not demanding, just tryingto reiterate shere we are. I'm really struggling with that feeling that I'm just rolling over. I dunno if she's just learning to play me and placate me. But then I ask why is she here? I'm pretty darn sure she's not in the affair anymore. I THINK she is still the one who cut it off, which is significant in my mind... She says very clearly that this is where she wants to be, it's about her, me and the kids, said she can't really separate those factors out right now. I kinda pressed her asking if she's here because of ME, she said she is. I dunno, actions speak louder than words, right? Eventually I'll know if this is working or not. If she's just blowing smoke up my a*s, I'll know sooner or later. I hope I got through to her that I want more action. She said she understood, but well, actions will determine all in the end.

A question that Mike asked was did his wife have his back. What does yours want?

Is marriage about getting the maximum satisfaction out of life? Would you not agree that there are many sacrifices. How does the spiritual balance out with reality? Live on as someone with no God, you can justify it with means justifying the end. You can pick your own morality!

For what it's worth, the Christian rule is if both parties are close to God, then you are automatically close to each other. Your wife is trying to escape life and consequences. Maybe her end is death. Look at yourself as a leader, how can you improve her life?

Without preaching, where is your anchor?

I grew up in a family where my mother and stepdad were devout Christians. Their marriage was terrible for all 26 years. They may have been close to God, or maybe not, but they're shortcomings in the marriage were very human and could never be overcome. They divorced 2 years ago and from my perspective it was about 20 later than it should have been.

Our anchors... See as an atheist I don't feel like I need an anchor in God... I don't have that need. My anchors are in family, my values, the beautiful aspects of life. I'm not feeling at all articulate this morning, so this is not my best answer.

I would suggest that my morality comes from the best parts of humanity. Christians believe that Man is inherently flawed. I believe that Man just does what he can do to find happiness in his short time on earth. Morals are constructs set up to make all of our lives better. I'd say that is the purpose of morals from God as well.

I don't want to be her leader anymore. I've been stabbed in the back for that now. She needs to co-lead or move on.

My life has become a cliche.

Wife came home last night and I surprised her with some pretty spicy and fun bedroom time. She seemed to really enjoy it, and it was fun to do something different and new together.

We cuddled up in bed and feel asleep in each other's arms. At about 5 this morning, I had rolled over and she asked me to put my arms around her again. I did, then she said, "That's my (other man's name)". No joke. This happened. This was not a movie.

OMG, what did you do?