Ok, this may come off sounding harsher than I intend. Maybe I'm reading more into what you wrote than you intend. I don't want to hurt your feelings. The things I wrote below are honest statements of my thoughts and feelings, even if it's more than what you were referring to, so I'm gonna leave them in, ok?


Well, just like you can't expect a baby to fix a shaky marriage, I don't expect a dog to fix un-dog-related problems. However, there are many things that having a dog will help. Feeling safer is definitely one of them. That *is* something that the *right* dog *can* do, and I've BTDT so I know what I'm talking about there.

Another is keeping kids occupied, giving them incentive to be outside instead of in front of the tv, giving them company... and again, a measure of safety that hopefully would never be needed.

Another is an activity for some FC/RC time.

This feels kinda silly though. (I feel like I'm trying to convince Stella why a person would want to have kids! LOL) I didn't have to make a list of all the things that getting a cat would contribute to the household. You either get it or you don't. What do having our cats give us? Well, they ruined a brand new top-of-the-line all-Italian-leather living room suit ($$$$). They provide a logistical problem to solve when traveling, they require pet-friendly hotels, careful carrying in and out of hotels since getting loose in a strange parking lot in a strange city could be disastrous, changing kitty litter, buying food ($$), vet bills ($$$), worrying about the eye infection the first week from the animal shelter... and someone for the kids to hug (priceless).

You either get it or you don't. If you don't see any value in having a dog or a cat, then don't get one. No itemized list or spreadsheet or flowchart will convince you otherwise. If you do see value in having a dog or a cat, then you don't need that value itemized. Unless you're getting a PPD (Personal Protection Dog) or a business investment, which I'm not. I'm getting an actual pet, an actual member of the family.

I'm not trying to convince Stella to have kids. I'm not trying to convince you to have a dog. I offered help with the dog you already have, if you want help. But you've convinced me, you should not get another.


I don't think he's in withdrawal. I think he is just him.


I'm usually tired at the end of the day. We have plenty of activities already. I don't need to add another thing to my To Do List on the off-chance that H will come with. I don't have time or energy or inclination to go to the movies by myself, or dinner by myself, or a play, or anything else that I might line up a babysitter for. I would just as soon stay home. I'm tired. Like my little icon in my sig.


No, I didn't do it because, for me to do it WOULD build up resentment. I've already explained it, but... for me to arrange a babysitter would mean going begging to people who I'd already left it as, "You let me know when you're free to babysit and I'll happily take whatever date you're available." For me to arrange a babysitter would be more effort than it's worth, to ME. I'd rather stay home. For me to get a babysitter wouldn't meet a single one of MY ENs; it would be a huge LB to ME; and it wouldn't meet any of H's ENs either as far as I could tell. *I* never said I wanted an evening thing I had to attend. H never said HE wanted an evening thing to attend. What would have made major LB$ deposits for *me* would have been if he had gone to the trouble of arranging a babysitter, for anything. Ever. Not the event. The getting of the babysitter. I can't say it plainer than that.

Well maybe I can. Say some wife was here complaining that her H didn't give her roses for Valentine's Day. Telling her to buy her own roses wouldn't help, would it? Or if a husband was here complaining he didn't get SF for Valentine's Day... telling him to SF himself, well...

(I just made up a new euphemism! "Go SF yourself!" ROFL)


I have been waiting for H to let me know *when* he would be most likely to participate. Because I thought that would be the most fruitful thing to do. The last time I asked him, it prolly wasn't the best time to ask. I was planning on asking one more time before arranging for an appointment myself. I was gone, now I'm back, I was going to ask after about 3 nights. That would have been tonight.


How do I describe things like skiing with my family with less than joy, pride, happiness?


Well, I *was* feeling like that, or at least so I thought...


H leaves before they are up, not after they are at school.


Well... he gets up, and he gets ready, and if he has any extra time he checks his email and starts thinking about what he needs to do that day. He goes to work. He comes home, fixes dinner, eats dinner, goes online and works until he's tired and ready to go to sleep. On the weekends he'll rent a movie for us to watch. During the day on the weekends he's happy to do FC/RC things. If we had a babysitter (or... a *dog*) then he *might* be willing to do something with me while the kids are outside playing. He also would be spending time with me if we were doing household chores, or cooking together, etc.


My time spent online (about 50% of that being MB) means that I'm not pushing for him to talk to me as much as I would be otherwise, because I give up and go in the bedroom and go online, leaving him to work in the dining room. That's just cus I tend to feel colder than he generally feels, and I don't like working sitting up, I like working or reading with my feet up. So he sits at the table cus that's how he likes to read, and I put my feet up and curl up with a blanket.


No, he isn't working toward anything, he's fine with the status quo.

And if I stay in the living room with him ignoring me, then I start to feel bad... maybe resentful, maybe foolish for hanging around when I'd be more comfortable curled up with a blanket. However, if I had a *reason* to hang out in the living room... like a living thing that is *not* ignoring me... then I'd be more inclined to be out there, rather than in here on MB.


Actually, I wasn't pointing any fingers, the past few posts and the past week has been me bragging about my kids' skiing and talking about how much fun we had, and then me sharing my good news about getting a dog. No finger pointing in those posts.

In fact, in my very brief post, a major portion of it was praising my H (calling him "Wonderful Husband" I think). And in just about the only other post I had time to post that morning, I sang the praises of him on another thread, and was thinking of digging up that thread where folks praised their H's, and posting to it.

What I was thinking and feeling toward H was just so far different from what you describe here, I just don't know what's going on... and my typing out this response, has drudged up all sorts of resentment toward H for not talking to me, for not having UA, for not participating in phone calls with Steve, for not getting a babysitter... I feel 180 degrees different about H than I did when I posted describing him as wonderful.

It really does feel like you are just reacting to any mention of a dog. You don't say "But why aren't you going out on a date tonight" when I talk about going skiing in the daytime. (But if you did ask that, the answer would be, because H and I are enough out of shape that we don't WANT to go out after a hard day of skiing.) When I'm here online, you don't say, "Why don't you get off the computer and go out into the living room and demand some UA from your H."


No, I never said I was happy without UA. Conversation is my biggest EN. UA is a requirement for me to feel intimate. I want to feel intimate. I've been trying to think of things I could do to promote feeling intimate, either myself, or maybe him, if that's a better approach. But how long can one keep up what is essentially Plan A behavior?


And where have I disagreed with the importance or the desire for RC and FC? In fact, a lot of my thoughts this past weekend were trying to come up with ways to have more RC time, and ways I might be able to meet his ENs.


No, I am definitely absolutely NOT enthusiastic about finding a babysitter. Unless that babysitter is furry, has four legs, and will chase off bad guys and mountain lions. Except I wouldn't wanna put the mountain lion thing to a test.

And I just spent the evening focusing on all the ways in which I'm dissatisfied with H. That was almost certainly not a wise choice for me to make.

I wasn't trying to say that there is no value in getting a dog. I understand that this is something that you are very enthusiastic about, and there is value to you and your family there.

I feared, jayne, that you will be so happy with the dog that you will stop working on your 50% of the marriage. I hadn't heard you talk about your LBs and what you are doing to eliminate them in a long time. I don't even remember what your LBs were anymore. So I'm wondering, jayne, where's your accountibility? Who's holding you to your plan?

It felt so good acknowledging that fear there! I can look at it, and remember that I totally trust your judgment jayne. Maybe POJAing for this dog is what it took for you to get enthusiastic about bringing your taker to the table.

Jayne, there were a lot of good points in your post, too. I don't know which you meant, and which you were just feeling snippy with me. Certainly I didn't tell you to go buy your own Valentine's Day flowers, even if I like that idea, that's what I did, bought flowers for us as a family, and I'm grateful I can do that. But what's the point going line by line if you feel differently today?

I am of the opinion that animals can help people come together just as much as they can cause a problem. My H never had cats growing up. Hated them. But he wanted me to be happy so he let me get a cat. Now we have 3. And all three of them love him more than us (well, mine only loves him because he spoils her with food...). My SIL was a dog person, had 2 when she and B married. Now they have 3 or 4 cats. And she loves them like crazy.

But the point is, you don't know what's going to happen when a pet comes into the house. It's been my experience in our house and others, that they tend to bring the people together, not apart. JMO.

I do have to say, ears, that I feel like your pet issues are pushing your agenda with Jayne. You're so smart, I'm surprised it isn't obvious to you. You do have a huge point, in that Jayne needs to continue to focus on her M and not get lost in having a pet and give up on the M. But I don't think she'll do that. And her H seems too passive to create a nightmare around the pet. Again, JMO.

Thanks cat!!!

Then, how come you didn't have that fear when we got our cable hooked up? That certainly takes time away from working on the marriage. How come you don't complain when I'm online instead of demanding UA?

How in the world do you go from "I'm happy about something" to "I'm no longer working on my marriage"?????????????


That's great. I'm happy for you. If what you want is the *flowers* and not the intimacy of having a husband who cares enough to *buy* the flowers, great. I've wanted flowers in the house before, and I've bought them myself. I was referring to a wife who might want the action of having her husband do something thoughtful like buy flowers. Not the need for the object of flowers. The need to know that he was thinking of her and willing to make an effort.

Just because you buying yourself flowers made you happy, I'm not going to chastise you for not POJAing the flowers or bringing your Taker to the table or say that you care more about the flowers than you do your marriage.


You don't get it. I started out yesterday all happy, thinking wonderful thoughts of H for various reasons. It was the shift of focus from "happy thoughts" to all the ways that H doesn't allow UA that shifted my emotions. That didn't come *before* the line by line response.

I'm sorry if me posting a happy post causes you fear or sadness or regret. *I* would have thought that happy times, enjoyable memories, good thoughts about our spouses, was to be desired, not squashed. I don't think it's healthy to always dwell on the negative; to always imagine the worst possible situation. Not every wife is abused (even if she's sporting a black eye!). Not every husband is an alcoholic. And it IS possible to work toward happiness, but not by refusing to let go of the negative.

Jayne, I hear that something I said yesterday was offensive to you, and I want to apologize, because it's not my goal to tick you off. I get it with the flowers analogy that I'm still offending you. And I get from cat's response that she agreed it was offensive.

Would you please be clear with me what part of that huge post was offensive? I want to understand so I can apologize today and avoid it next time.

I really think it is exactly what I said - anytime I post anything about a dog, it seems you say something negative, and it seems to come out of the blue. I share something I'm happy about, and you say you fear I'm not working on my marriage? I can try to put that in different words... I'll go back and try to find exact quotes... but it's really just the overall post. Sure, each individual sentence one may have to admit is a valid statement... but it's just that, where did all that come from? I really have not seen anyone else treated that way when they post about good news. Holy cow.

Unless maybe they are posting about moving away from their spouse or something.

I'm not sure where this is coming from. I don't know if it's important enough to you to ask whether *you* want to explore where this is coming from.

I now feel resentful toward my H whereas yesterday I woke up very much appreciating him. Being on MB was very detrimental to my M yesterday. My choice to be here, my choice to read, my choice to spend time responding, to think about things rather than ignore.

Because Steve didn't tell you to drop the cable thing for now. But he did tell you to drop the dog thing for now. But if you said, you are spedning all your free time watching cable or online, I think I may have asked, jayne, is that something you want to look at? But if I missed it, it's okay, you'd see it on your own when it became an issue.



I didn't say that today you are no longer working on your marriage. I am saying that was a concern I had, that you could clarify if it was valid or invalid.


Okay, since this is a hypothetical lady, I'll drop it, figuring if she cares, she'll be O&H about it. Or not.


Is this the part that offended you? Do you think I chastised you? I think we have a disagreement there, because I come to you as an equal. Maybe I need some work on my delivery. It isn't very clear to me here. I didn't say that you care more about the dog. You said that you were enthusiastic about negotiating for a dog, but not something else that we discussed a long time ago. Maybe that's changed, we are new every day. So you can again clarify if it's true for today or not.




I was asking, what's the point of me going over your post line by line, if you maybe weren't mad at me this morning anymore. Maybe I was mistaken again on that.



I'm not that powerful, to change your perception of your H. I'm handing that back to you, jayne. You know I come to you as an equal, not like a counselor or something that tells you there is a problem so you should take my judgement over your own.




It was a momentary fear, I felt better when I looked at it. And it wasn't because you posted a happy post.


Again, I'm not powerful enough to squash your happiness. Again I hand that back to you. Your attitude is your decision. If I say something you don't like, then tell me, I'll make amends, and we'll move on. If I say something that's inaccurate, then say, I don't know why you think that, it's like this instead. But please don't tell me I squash your hapiness. I agree with you that it's not to be squashed.


Are you saying that I always dwell on the negative? I don't tell folks that they are being abused or alcoholic. Again, I am just sharing as an equal, not as a vet or someone who's made it to the other side. Dr. H has some great articles that are great to get perspective whether the issue is domestic violence or alcoholism or not.

Okay jayne I hear you saying that when you post about a dog, I say somthing negative, and it comes out of the blue. You have said this to me before, and I think that I disregarded it as "She didn't hear what I'm trying to say, must not have rung true for her," and I moved on. Without realizing that you may be reaching a frustration level with me. I got it, no more dog posts.


I think I clarified that above, a momentary concern that again didn't ring true for you.


Okay, I hear that you feel treated badly. I'm sorry it sounds like it crossed over into judgment. I think I know what you mean. I thought I had that down, but you've raised my focus on it, so I'll be more careful next time.


In general, I felt a great sense of loss when I realized that I handed my power over to my H, and blamed him for the lack of UA and FC time I had.



If and only if you forgive me, then I have a question

ears, I don't think you were being offensive at all. I just think that it may be coincidence that you happen to have a terrible past history about dogs, and Jayne's discussion happened to be about dogs, that it seemed...suspicious (?) that it was the main thing you were suggesting she not do. The two things may have been completely unrelated; it was just a weird coincidence. On the other hand, if it was a trigger for you, it tells me you still have some unresolved angst about your own history. Does that make sense?

As for Jayne, I just am of the opinion that people typically get so much more blessings out of having a pet than they can get problems - unless her H is going to turn into a monster about it, of course. But it seems they've done some due diligence about it and it may be a safe issue now. So I look forward to the happy happy that will likely come out of having a dog in the house, and especially what it will mean to the boys, and how it will be something they rally around and just possibly drag their father along til he gets to the point that he can't imagine ever NOT wanting a dog. kwim?

OK, so you have a dog, cat, and two kids. When do you have time for all that?

Your husband probably sees how little time you have now and how scattered your life is and stressed it is, so he does not want to add to that stress and get a dog who needs hours of care and training.....

Maybe if you calm out your life, get totally organized, save money, etc, show you have no stress, then your husband will see that a dog would be great to have since you all have time and energy to care for it. I would try that for 6 months, get every room organized and spotlessly clean. Get money saved in a savings account and every bill paid off if you dont have that already. Organize the kids so there is no chaos. Make that house a haven of calmness. for 6 months....Then ask for a dog.

Thanks cat, that does make sense. I'm sure I did feel a little unresolved about folks who push unwanted pets, unwanted babies, unwanted family members, unwanted pools, or *unwanted cross-country moves* on someone, but jayne is sure that's no longer the case. I think I'm doing better with that, but I see yesterday the post crossed the line into second-guessing, and I'm sorry.

Edited to add, by unwanted babies, all I mean is the recent posts we get about folks who agreed that they want no kids, change their mind, and then come here shocked and amazed that their spouse won't agree to it.

Other ppl's responses: (excerpts)


... along with a few folks sharing their own stories, some with pics and a video even.

You: (excerpts)


And also, all the other things I've already responded to.

Do you want to explore why you think the only way I can be working on my marriage is if I get a babysitter and don't get a dog? Are you sure you aren't projecting onto me? Because several times I've posted something that I thought was sharing good news, or an interesting story, or some fun RC or FC, and you've responded as if I'm being abused or something. Not just about dogs. But for sure and especially with dogs.

For example, how I got a black eye when I fell skiing... or rather *walking* in ski boots. You seemed upset that H didn't get me ice. If I'd wanted ice more than I'd wanted to sit there, I would've gotten my own ice.

Just like if *I* wanted a babysitter enough to GET a babysitter, I'd get a babysitter. I don't want a babysitter enough to do what it would require.

Just like you bought flowers when you wanted flowers.

Just like you tell me to own my own stuff, and get something for myself if I want it. Well that's exactly what I was doing with the ice. *I* wasn't concerned that he was too tired to get ice and was busy with getting everything else so the kids and I could just sit for a minute.

And about Steve: he didn't tell me to NOT get a dog. He told me to not get a dog AT THE EXPENSE OF H's HAPPINESS.

And he also told me to not NAG H about participating in the phone calls, but to try asking in a way that might be conducive to H agreeing. Hence the delay in scheduling the next appointment.

If *you* want to call Steve then *you* call Steve. If *you* want a babysitter then get a babysitter. If *you* don't want a dog then don't get a dog.

If jayne's H has a problem with the dog, he needs to grow a pair and step up and make a statement about it. I get frustrated because boundary discussions only seem to go half-way around here a lot of the time.

For jayne to spend her valuable emotional capital on worrying about whether or not her H really is or isn't on board with this choice, is just another way of renting space in his head. Let her H be a man and stand or fall on his own choices. Based on what she's posted here (and let's be honest, that's all we really know of the situation), it sounds like she sought repeated assurances from him that Operation Big Dog was good to go.

I think it's out of line to worry her about second guessing now. H is a Big Boy. If he regrets her choice, he's really got no one to blame but himself.

EO - I know that you mean well. I read your posts to jayne as somehow trying to get her take on the responsibility for her H's happiness. He's the only one who can manage his self-care. That's why they call it "self-care".

If her H ever says, "You know, I never really wanted that dog and I was afraid you'd show it more love and attention than you show me.", then that's his own fault. We talk all the time about being the kind of person we want our own spouses and SOs to be. Not in exact fashion, but from the same sort of ethic. I think she'd be violating her own ethic of self-care and owning her own behaviors and choices if she were to speculate on her H's desires and live for them.

Again, maybe I'm missing something, but that sounds to me like what you're advocating.

Okay, jayne, I hear you, that I've read too much into what you wrote, and you didn't like that. Thanks for sharing.

J "I am embarassed to have a black eye at work. I wouldn't have had a black eye at work if my H had gotten ice when I asked him. I could have gotten ice if I wasn't so run down from running after some kids. "
E "Wow, I'm sorry to hear that. How about asking someone else for ice until your H is ready to do that?"
J "No, I didn't want ice. I would have gotten ice if I'd have wanted ice. I wasn't saying anything bad about my H."

Now today, "Why do you act like I'm being abused?"

I wasn't acting like you're abused. It was a simple misunderstanding. I ask for clarification sometimes, not for you to justify stuff to me.

I don't like how you're posting to me, jayne, and I'm taking a break.

Thanks Seabs! I think you've identified the reason I am feeling frustrated over all these questions (now Stella has joined in as well).

Seriously, some folks seem more worried about my H's not wanting a dog than my H is!!!!!!!!!!!!! Like, trying to stir up trouble where there was none?????????

I've given H NUMEROUS opportunities to tell me he doesn't want a dog. I've told him that I don't want to gain at his expense; that I don't want to get a dog if it will make him miserable. I've told him several times, "You still can tell me that you don't want a dog." I've even said several times "This is your last chance to back out" even though if he were a kid that would be reinforcing that there can be more than one "last chance."

Some ppl here seemingly want me to either keep NAGGING him, or they want me to refuse to get a dog because THEY don't want a dog. I don't see how doing either of those things would help my marriage.

ETA: Seriously ears and Stella. What would make YOU enthusiastic about MY FAMILY getting a dog? Because it certainly isn't whether or not my H agrees. Do I need to POJA with you whether or not MY family gets a dog?

Seabird, thanks for the input. It makes sense, and you may be right.

Jayne, I consider you a friend, and I am asking you to stop this.

A week or more ago I reminded you you didn't need my blessing, but you had it.

It is very possible that Stella forgot that you said your H was enthusiastic. You've gotten details on my thread wrong many times, but I understand how someone can forget details over time, so I clarified and we kept moving forward.

Stop what, stop addressing your questions? Because I'm basically saying the same thing over and over, and if I'm not saying it as nice as at first, if my frustration is getting the better of me, it's because it wasn't heard when I said it nice.

Stop talking about something I'm happy about? On my own thread?

I'm asking a serious question. Is there any circumstances under which I could post here about something I'm excited about, my kids are excited about, and H is as excited as he ever gets... and not get criticized?

Why am *I* receiving treatment that is usually reserved for BS's who refuse to expose, for example?

I'm not the kind of wife who walks on eggshells, and I don't expect my H to either. I'm not the kind of wife who tries to second-guess her H (which is a DJ ya know) or who tries to control his emotions or believes we must never disagree, or doesn't know her own likes/dislikes because she's too wrapped up in what makes her H happy. I refuse to apologize for that. I think that's a good thing. When women come here who are like that, we encourage them to not continue like that.