My marriage has been like many others, all the articles, books and dvds I have seen could have used it for case study. My wife and I had withdrawn into separate worlds after 20 + years, our kids were leaving the house one by one, her work got very stressful and I did not give much support. and someone came along that met her needs, and a love affair developed. She asked me to leave, I did, not understanding why. The next day, she confessed to me. She told me many things, that it was not sexual, which I believe. I believe they tried to stop it, but it carried on for a while, until he put a stop to it, for reasons that will become clearer later. I have been living at home for a while, but it is like it was before, separate lives in the same house. Kind of worked out like in the QA section unfaithful wife letter #2. She did not want it to end and I am trying to make my marriage come back to life. There is one complicating factor, however. Our youngest child is very involved in the youth group at our church and I really don't want to switch, but the other man was our pastor. I feel that he will leave when he can, but until then there will always be some contact, at least visually.

My wife is in the mode now that since she had told me many times and I did not respond that she gave up and moved along, long before the relationship started. I have no reason to doubt her. She is very dug in and not receptive to trying anything. She has never told me otherwise. I am honestly not angry anymore, the hurt is being dealt with. I feel God is using this to get me to change my life to be more in line with Him, and I feel this is occurring, thought I have a long way to go. So, for the first time, I feel that I can last for a while and try to show the love to her that I didn't before, even if I don't receive any in return (that agape thing, like I have been commanded to do. Feels good to do it, however.)

I guess what I am asking is this. This site, Gary Chapman, other sites, all say that is I can show enough love, meeting the emotional needs, that eventually this will register and a relationship can start again, that I can start the ball rolling and influence her feelings toward me by my actions. But she seems so entrenched that I wonder if this is so much hooie to sell books and seminars. I feel I am emotionally and spiritually strong enough now to try, but continually hearing from her that the ship sailed long ago always knocks me down a peg. Dr. Harley in the article said it could take 6 months to 2 years, at times that seems optimistic.

mmmherb-
has your wife ended the A?

is your wife wanting the marriage to work?

if so, NC needs to be put into place.

after NC is in place, she has mourned the loss of the OM, then you work on the plan A... figure out what her needs are and dump them in there...

yes there is hope... yes it does take a long time and a lot of hard work on both your parts...

good luck
havingfaith

Your M cannot recover as long as WW and OM are in contact - any contact.

You should not leave your church. Your pastor should not be a pastor. Expose his lying face to the world. A pastor is a position of trust. You cannot allow this predator to ruin other marriages.

OM will not move on. Once he realizes he is safe, he'll get more confidence and realize you won't do anything about the situation.

Get WW and OM away from each other - period - then start the clock ticking.

Welcome.

Yes, there is hope and yes people do R from A's. However, for R to begin in earnest, NC(no contact) has to happen. That means that she never sees, speaks, or has ANY contact with him for life. And I can see that is not happening here, at least not yet. So things will not begin to get better until NC is established. She will then go through withdrawal, much like an addict will. During that time you try to meet her emotional needs(ENs) and you eliminate the LBs(love busters). Read up on these topics if you don't know what they are. They are on this site.

Spend 15+ hours a week together, during which time you try to meet her ENs. See if she'll fill out the EN questionnaire that you can download from this site. And the LB quest. If she won't do it, fill it out as if you were she. You should fill yours out too, but don't expect her to meet any of your needs at this point. Just have it ready.

This is going to be difficult, but not impossible. However as long as she gets to see him, she gets her fix and she stays in the waywatd fog. NC brings about the defogging and it's usually when the WS starts to see the reality of their actions. And all the pain they created. But it's not going to happen overnight. She must have NC. It's critical. And it needs to happen NOW.

The weird thing is, during this time, he has been the one person that has encouraged me the most. Before he ended the contact with her but after I realized that it was still going on, I did a lot of communicating with him. I never threatened to expose anything, but I laid on the guilt pretty heavily. After a while though, he actually became an encourager, and probably was the one that gave me the most hope. After a while, he finally faced up to what was happening ended the connection. His wife knows, I don't know how much, but enough.

I, for some reason, until recently, continued to meet him and he has been a kind of counselor. I have been going to counseling independently as well, but kept talking to him. I have realized that I cannot continue to do that and have stopped for about the last month. So I have kept the problem going somewhat myself.

I really feel that all that occurred took him by surprise and before he knew it, it was too late. Of course, I feel it was wrong, but I don't feel the need for vengeance. God can take care of that if needed. His wife wants out of here, I think he does too, he told me he caused enough trouble. Just don't know when that will be.

Now, my wife is not trying. I think I can wait until the NC can occur, I think it will be relatively soon. Then I will see what her reaction is. I honestly believe that, unless something woke me up, that my marriage was definitely over. The affair of the heart did it. I am glad for all concerned that it did not go all the way. It still may be over, she tells me it is. I just want to allow every chance for things to be able to change.

My hope is that the NC will occur soon, and that she will sometime after that start to work some on things. If she does start to try, I know it will work. But there is a thick wall around her, it was built before the events of the last year took place, and I helped build it. I'm not sure I can ever penetrate it.

I'm not talking about vengeance. Exposure is intended to stop the A. If you are convinced it has stopped, then you need to get WW away from OM. Quit church. Move out of state. Whatever it takes.

OTOH, there is a pastor who holds a position of confidence who is using that confidence to have affairs. Who is next. I believe it is your moral obligation to let the congregation know exactly what this man is like. If you do not expose him and he destroys another marriage, do you want that on your hands?

If you protect him, you enable him.

And please stop talking to him - he is your enemy.

I don't have a reference for it, but have been told a couple of times that the rate of infidelity for clergy is about the same as general population. So I think the occupation of the waywards is not so important. When people CHOSE to have an A, they put their employment at risk, whether it be a corporation, the military, medical, clergy, etc.

That said, I think the way to proceed is the same as in any A. Expose to those that can assist in breaking up the A. You said his W knows. How do you know this? Did your WW or the OM tell you? Wayards LIE like crazy and it is no different if they are churchgoers or pastors. Also, the employer, in this case the church council or board or whatever the management structure is for your denomination. This gets the A out in the open. As thrive in secrecy. And there seem to be many folks who chose not/cannot for whatever reason expose the A who suffer from multiple false recoveries.

NC is also a must. Will your W agree to write a NC letter? If not, this is a very telling piece of information about her willingness to commit to your M. I know your DD is very involved in the youth group, but staying in this church while the OM is still the pastor is not a good idea. And certainly this man should NOT be your counselor.

Read, read, read. Surviving an Affair; His Needs, Her Needs; Lovebusters, the articles on this website are all great places to start.

I am sorry you find yourself in this situation and wish the best for you.

AM

A few thoughts:

The odds are REALLY high that the affair was sexual. We see dozens of men who come here in denial and who "believe" their wives. Well, 99% of the time the wife is lying and the affair was indeed physical.

I would not doubt that it was. There's ways to find out. Put a spy program on your computer and find her passwords to her email accounts, unless you can guess them yourself. Odds are that you'll find much evidence there.

I too was told that all she did was "harmless flirting". Unless times have changed, oral sex doesn't fall into "harmless flirting" for me.

So don't believe her about it not being physical.

You also owe it to expose to his wife. She MUST know.

You're going to resist that idea, but reverse the situation. If she knew that her husband was having an affair with your wife, would you not want her to tell you.

And I know you have ideas about God but let me throw this idea about Him to you. Would God not want this despicable sin to end?

Ending it involves exposure and exposing to OM's wife is a huge step towards making that happen.

You should also expose to the congregation. This man took advantage of his position and you should see him for what he is, which is a predator. Not only is he a predator, but he's the sickest kind, who uses his position to lower the guard of his victims (you).

Finally, exposure is NOT revenge. It's bringing an evil deed to light so that it won't happen again.

So snoop some more. Your wife is still acting foggy, which usually indicates that an affair is ongoing.

Don't let your guard down and start spying. Check your phone records and bank accounts. That will give you more info.

And by all means, go to another church until that man is gone.

You're in a state of denial yourself right now. You want all things to go back to normal. Well, they won't unless you take some action to correct the wrong, which involves exposure.

Finally, if you don't expose, you will forever regret the fact that you did nothing and let him get away with it. You'll feel even worse when you find out that this man had an affair with another woman at his new church.

You are being gaslighted by a very wicked, twisted, fallen pastor, my friend. You are enabling this affair by keeping their secret. Your silence enables him to pursue an adulterous affair with your wife. This man is a PASTOR, who is supposed to protect his FLOCK and he is little more than a FOX IN THE HEN HOUSE.

And you are enabling him by keeping his dirty secret! He can only operate under the cover of darkness and you help him do that! What ARE you doing?

No wonder he is so "nice" to you! You help him exploit your wife and other women in the church! If the church knew what he was doing, they would stop him.

Please remind me whose side you are on? Because I cannot tell!

The way to neutralize him, so he cannot continue to destroy your family and other families in your church is to expose him to the church board and to his wife. Stop enabling this unfit, DANGEROUS pastor, Herb. Surely you can see that you do NO ONE any favors by keeping this secret? The only one you help is the FOX. You help him DESTROY YOUR FAMILY and the families of other men.

Is your son being exposed to this predator of his mother, in complete ignorance of what this man is doing to his family? Because if I were your child and you allowed me to be around such a despicable man in complete ignorance, we would have a huge problem that you did that to me. Your son might need to know that this man is a fraud and is not to be trusted.

Since his parents won't protect him, he can at least protect himself if he is armed with the truth.

Affairs thrive on secrecy, Herb, and it is up to you to put a stop to this very dangerous man who is abusing his place of authority in the church. He is not FIT to be a pastor and they will not know unless you buck up here and notify the church board.

You need to stop carrying water for the FOX, mmm, and start defending your family and your church. How about carrying water for your OWN FAMILY for once?

Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. Ephesians 5:11

Hope is not a PLAN! Nor will contact end as long as she sees the pastor at that church. Nor will recovery be possible as long as she continues to see him. Your plan is HOPELESS.

Hope is not a plan!


Dr. Harley also says that recovery is impossible if the affairees still see each other. So you are looking at 6 to 24 months from the time contact ends. You missed that very important factor. So, in your case, it is not "optimistic" but impossible. IMPOSSIBLE. Everytime she sees him at church she will be triggered. So, start counting from the time you leave the church.

excerpt from Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

entire article here

How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS
p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

Dr. Willard Harley, clinical psychologist, founder of Marriage Builders and author of Surviving an Affair [11-2008]:

"I'm in the process of rewriting "Surviving an Affair" to add information about plan B. Some of the main points are as follows:

Whether in plan A or B, the world should know about your husband's affair. All of your relatives, your friends, your children, and the licensing board for your husband's lover. In some states a licensing board will revoke a license if a counselor is having an affair with a married person, client or not. This is because it's well known that affairs hurt families, especially children. And counselors know better than to have an affair.

The reason for the wide exposure is not to hurt the unfaithful spouse, but rather to end the fantasy. Your husband's secret second life made his affair possible, and the more you can to to make it public, the easier it is for him to see the damage he's doing. Keeping it secret does damage, but few know about it. Making it public helps everyone, including the unfaithful spouse and lover, see the affair for what it really is.

<snip unrelated>

When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery."

Herb, did the OM come to your house and "minister" to your wife while you were gone?

I sure hope your wife didn't go to church in Maryville, Illinois.

Well here I am again, I will need a lot of help and support.

I had been reading emails in my wife's account for a long time, so I am sure, if one can ever be completely sure, that there has been no PA. It really is irrelevant, but it clouded my judgment for a while

If you read through the posts before this, you know my situation. I quit posting because I had hope that this could end without all the things I was being advised to do occurring. But,it got me thinking how untenable the situation was. To make a long story short, I stopped ignoring tell tale signs of contact, and started snooping. again. Found some, still didn't blow the lid completely. Started doing some real snooping, got into areas that could get me in trouble, but found some emails that had been deleted, but not deleted enough. Very inappropriate stuff, as if the whole thing wasn't inappropriate. But they were from several weeks before, and I could not find any contact evidence for a week. Until today. Started off as a funny picture from him, a response from her, then some more inappropriate comments from them both.

I had everything printed. Contacted some of the deacons and showed them. They are meeting tonight. Called my girls at college and told them what I was doing. Come to find out, they were not surprised, they felt the problem long before me. I expect the deacons will meet with pastor tomorrow, then the waste will collide withe the ventilating device. Told her parents the whole thing tonight, they were not completely in the dark. Told my Mom. I will tell the D14 in the morning, but according to the other girls, she is not unaware anyway. So all the people I thought I was protecting already knew,

I guess tomorrow is, goodbye fantasy, welcome to the real world. The toothpaste is out of the tube.

I still love my wife and want to try. Help me out.

Good job! I would stand by her by helping her end her affair and do the right thing. Tell everyone, especially the OM's wife.

My suggestion would be to leave that church so your W is not triggered every time she goes there.

I will never go there again.

I am worried about my wife. She has been distressed, she is very bad tonight, but acting funny, lire she wants me to talk, but doesn't. Very angry. Turning everything around.

I guess the deacons ended up talking to the pastor tonight. He lied his way out enough that I do not think anything is going to be done. I had a lot of evidence, but they are protecting the church, it went through something similar a few years ago. Another reason I will never go again.

I made sure I pointed out to my wife that he lied to protect his hide and left her hung out to dry.

Just hope to get through the next several weeks. I have been doing Plan A for months, except the part about exposing the affair, little things like that. Didn't work do well.

HI mmmherb.

my husband did much the same as you with the carrot bit of plan A. It wasn't until after the A was over and exposed that I suddenly realised how lovely H had been and what an idiot I had been. All the work he'd been putting in in the previous months didn't go to waste.

Just wanted share to give you encouragement

Herb, if she ends contact with her lover, you will start to see a difference. Has the OMW been given all of this information too?

That's plain sick. I'd go to that church one last time just to tell a few highly respected parishoners why I wasn't coming back.

And if you have not exposed to the OMW yet, please tell her and stop keeping this evil alive.