My marriage has been like many others, all the articles, books and dvds I have seen could have used it for case study. My wife and I had withdrawn into separate worlds after 20 + years, our kids were leaving the house one by one, her work got very stressful and I did not give much support. and someone came along that met her needs, and a love affair developed. She asked me to leave, I did, not understanding why. The next day, she confessed to me. She told me many things, that it was not sexual, which I believe. I believe they tried to stop it, but it carried on for a while, until he put a stop to it, for reasons that will become clearer later. I have been living at home for a while, but it is like it was before, separate lives in the same house. Kind of worked out like in the QA section unfaithful wife letter #2. She did not want it to end and I am trying to make my marriage come back to life. There is one complicating factor, however. Our youngest child is very involved in the youth group at our church and I really don't want to switch, but the other man was our pastor. I feel that he will leave when he can, but until then there will always be some contact, at least visually.

My wife is in the mode now that since she had told me many times and I did not respond that she gave up and moved along, long before the relationship started. I have no reason to doubt her. She is very dug in and not receptive to trying anything. She has never told me otherwise. I am honestly not angry anymore, the hurt is being dealt with. I feel God is using this to get me to change my life to be more in line with Him, and I feel this is occurring, thought I have a long way to go. So, for the first time, I feel that I can last for a while and try to show the love to her that I didn't before, even if I don't receive any in return (that agape thing, like I have been commanded to do. Feels good to do it, however.)

I guess what I am asking is this. This site, Gary Chapman, other sites, all say that is I can show enough love, meeting the emotional needs, that eventually this will register and a relationship can start again, that I can start the ball rolling and influence her feelings toward me by my actions. But she seems so entrenched that I wonder if this is so much hooie to sell books and seminars. I feel I am emotionally and spiritually strong enough now to try, but continually hearing from her that the ship sailed long ago always knocks me down a peg. Dr. Harley in the article said it could take 6 months to 2 years, at times that seems optimistic.

mmmherb-
has your wife ended the A?

is your wife wanting the marriage to work?

if so, NC needs to be put into place.

after NC is in place, she has mourned the loss of the OM, then you work on the plan A... figure out what her needs are and dump them in there...

yes there is hope... yes it does take a long time and a lot of hard work on both your parts...

good luck
havingfaith

Your M cannot recover as long as WW and OM are in contact - any contact.

You should not leave your church. Your pastor should not be a pastor. Expose his lying face to the world. A pastor is a position of trust. You cannot allow this predator to ruin other marriages.

OM will not move on. Once he realizes he is safe, he'll get more confidence and realize you won't do anything about the situation.

Get WW and OM away from each other - period - then start the clock ticking.

Welcome.

Yes, there is hope and yes people do R from A's. However, for R to begin in earnest, NC(no contact) has to happen. That means that she never sees, speaks, or has ANY contact with him for life. And I can see that is not happening here, at least not yet. So things will not begin to get better until NC is established. She will then go through withdrawal, much like an addict will. During that time you try to meet her emotional needs(ENs) and you eliminate the LBs(love busters). Read up on these topics if you don't know what they are. They are on this site.

Spend 15+ hours a week together, during which time you try to meet her ENs. See if she'll fill out the EN questionnaire that you can download from this site. And the LB quest. If she won't do it, fill it out as if you were she. You should fill yours out too, but don't expect her to meet any of your needs at this point. Just have it ready.

This is going to be difficult, but not impossible. However as long as she gets to see him, she gets her fix and she stays in the waywatd fog. NC brings about the defogging and it's usually when the WS starts to see the reality of their actions. And all the pain they created. But it's not going to happen overnight. She must have NC. It's critical. And it needs to happen NOW.

The weird thing is, during this time, he has been the one person that has encouraged me the most. Before he ended the contact with her but after I realized that it was still going on, I did a lot of communicating with him. I never threatened to expose anything, but I laid on the guilt pretty heavily. After a while though, he actually became an encourager, and probably was the one that gave me the most hope. After a while, he finally faced up to what was happening ended the connection. His wife knows, I don't know how much, but enough.

I, for some reason, until recently, continued to meet him and he has been a kind of counselor. I have been going to counseling independently as well, but kept talking to him. I have realized that I cannot continue to do that and have stopped for about the last month. So I have kept the problem going somewhat myself.

I really feel that all that occurred took him by surprise and before he knew it, it was too late. Of course, I feel it was wrong, but I don't feel the need for vengeance. God can take care of that if needed. His wife wants out of here, I think he does too, he told me he caused enough trouble. Just don't know when that will be.

Now, my wife is not trying. I think I can wait until the NC can occur, I think it will be relatively soon. Then I will see what her reaction is. I honestly believe that, unless something woke me up, that my marriage was definitely over. The affair of the heart did it. I am glad for all concerned that it did not go all the way. It still may be over, she tells me it is. I just want to allow every chance for things to be able to change.

My hope is that the NC will occur soon, and that she will sometime after that start to work some on things. If she does start to try, I know it will work. But there is a thick wall around her, it was built before the events of the last year took place, and I helped build it. I'm not sure I can ever penetrate it.

I'm not talking about vengeance. Exposure is intended to stop the A. If you are convinced it has stopped, then you need to get WW away from OM. Quit church. Move out of state. Whatever it takes.

OTOH, there is a pastor who holds a position of confidence who is using that confidence to have affairs. Who is next. I believe it is your moral obligation to let the congregation know exactly what this man is like. If you do not expose him and he destroys another marriage, do you want that on your hands?

If you protect him, you enable him.

And please stop talking to him - he is your enemy.

I don't have a reference for it, but have been told a couple of times that the rate of infidelity for clergy is about the same as general population. So I think the occupation of the waywards is not so important. When people CHOSE to have an A, they put their employment at risk, whether it be a corporation, the military, medical, clergy, etc.

That said, I think the way to proceed is the same as in any A. Expose to those that can assist in breaking up the A. You said his W knows. How do you know this? Did your WW or the OM tell you? Wayards LIE like crazy and it is no different if they are churchgoers or pastors. Also, the employer, in this case the church council or board or whatever the management structure is for your denomination. This gets the A out in the open. As thrive in secrecy. And there seem to be many folks who chose not/cannot for whatever reason expose the A who suffer from multiple false recoveries.

NC is also a must. Will your W agree to write a NC letter? If not, this is a very telling piece of information about her willingness to commit to your M. I know your DD is very involved in the youth group, but staying in this church while the OM is still the pastor is not a good idea. And certainly this man should NOT be your counselor.

Read, read, read. Surviving an Affair; His Needs, Her Needs; Lovebusters, the articles on this website are all great places to start.

I am sorry you find yourself in this situation and wish the best for you.

AM

A few thoughts:

The odds are REALLY high that the affair was sexual. We see dozens of men who come here in denial and who "believe" their wives. Well, 99% of the time the wife is lying and the affair was indeed physical.

I would not doubt that it was. There's ways to find out. Put a spy program on your computer and find her passwords to her email accounts, unless you can guess them yourself. Odds are that you'll find much evidence there.

I too was told that all she did was "harmless flirting". Unless times have changed, oral sex doesn't fall into "harmless flirting" for me.

So don't believe her about it not being physical.

You also owe it to expose to his wife. She MUST know.

You're going to resist that idea, but reverse the situation. If she knew that her husband was having an affair with your wife, would you not want her to tell you.

And I know you have ideas about God but let me throw this idea about Him to you. Would God not want this despicable sin to end?

Ending it involves exposure and exposing to OM's wife is a huge step towards making that happen.

You should also expose to the congregation. This man took advantage of his position and you should see him for what he is, which is a predator. Not only is he a predator, but he's the sickest kind, who uses his position to lower the guard of his victims (you).

Finally, exposure is NOT revenge. It's bringing an evil deed to light so that it won't happen again.

So snoop some more. Your wife is still acting foggy, which usually indicates that an affair is ongoing.

Don't let your guard down and start spying. Check your phone records and bank accounts. That will give you more info.

And by all means, go to another church until that man is gone.

You're in a state of denial yourself right now. You want all things to go back to normal. Well, they won't unless you take some action to correct the wrong, which involves exposure.

Finally, if you don't expose, you will forever regret the fact that you did nothing and let him get away with it. You'll feel even worse when you find out that this man had an affair with another woman at his new church.

You are being gaslighted by a very wicked, twisted, fallen pastor, my friend. You are enabling this affair by keeping their secret. Your silence enables him to pursue an adulterous affair with your wife. This man is a PASTOR, who is supposed to protect his FLOCK and he is little more than a FOX IN THE HEN HOUSE.

And you are enabling him by keeping his dirty secret! He can only operate under the cover of darkness and you help him do that! What ARE you doing?

No wonder he is so "nice" to you! You help him exploit your wife and other women in the church! If the church knew what he was doing, they would stop him.

Please remind me whose side you are on? Because I cannot tell!

The way to neutralize him, so he cannot continue to destroy your family and other families in your church is to expose him to the church board and to his wife. Stop enabling this unfit, DANGEROUS pastor, Herb. Surely you can see that you do NO ONE any favors by keeping this secret? The only one you help is the FOX. You help him DESTROY YOUR FAMILY and the families of other men.

Is your son being exposed to this predator of his mother, in complete ignorance of what this man is doing to his family? Because if I were your child and you allowed me to be around such a despicable man in complete ignorance, we would have a huge problem that you did that to me. Your son might need to know that this man is a fraud and is not to be trusted.

Since his parents won't protect him, he can at least protect himself if he is armed with the truth.

Affairs thrive on secrecy, Herb, and it is up to you to put a stop to this very dangerous man who is abusing his place of authority in the church. He is not FIT to be a pastor and they will not know unless you buck up here and notify the church board.

You need to stop carrying water for the FOX, mmm, and start defending your family and your church. How about carrying water for your OWN FAMILY for once?

Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. Ephesians 5:11

Hope is not a PLAN! Nor will contact end as long as she sees the pastor at that church. Nor will recovery be possible as long as she continues to see him. Your plan is HOPELESS.

Hope is not a plan!


Dr. Harley also says that recovery is impossible if the affairees still see each other. So you are looking at 6 to 24 months from the time contact ends. You missed that very important factor. So, in your case, it is not "optimistic" but impossible. IMPOSSIBLE. Everytime she sees him at church she will be triggered. So, start counting from the time you leave the church.

excerpt from Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

entire article here

How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS
p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

Dr. Willard Harley, clinical psychologist, founder of Marriage Builders and author of Surviving an Affair [11-2008]:

"I'm in the process of rewriting "Surviving an Affair" to add information about plan B. Some of the main points are as follows:

Whether in plan A or B, the world should know about your husband's affair. All of your relatives, your friends, your children, and the licensing board for your husband's lover. In some states a licensing board will revoke a license if a counselor is having an affair with a married person, client or not. This is because it's well known that affairs hurt families, especially children. And counselors know better than to have an affair.

The reason for the wide exposure is not to hurt the unfaithful spouse, but rather to end the fantasy. Your husband's secret second life made his affair possible, and the more you can to to make it public, the easier it is for him to see the damage he's doing. Keeping it secret does damage, but few know about it. Making it public helps everyone, including the unfaithful spouse and lover, see the affair for what it really is.

<snip unrelated>

When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery."

Herb, did the OM come to your house and "minister" to your wife while you were gone?

I sure hope your wife didn't go to church in Maryville, Illinois.

Well here I am again, I will need a lot of help and support.

I had been reading emails in my wife's account for a long time, so I am sure, if one can ever be completely sure, that there has been no PA. It really is irrelevant, but it clouded my judgment for a while

If you read through the posts before this, you know my situation. I quit posting because I had hope that this could end without all the things I was being advised to do occurring. But,it got me thinking how untenable the situation was. To make a long story short, I stopped ignoring tell tale signs of contact, and started snooping. again. Found some, still didn't blow the lid completely. Started doing some real snooping, got into areas that could get me in trouble, but found some emails that had been deleted, but not deleted enough. Very inappropriate stuff, as if the whole thing wasn't inappropriate. But they were from several weeks before, and I could not find any contact evidence for a week. Until today. Started off as a funny picture from him, a response from her, then some more inappropriate comments from them both.

I had everything printed. Contacted some of the deacons and showed them. They are meeting tonight. Called my girls at college and told them what I was doing. Come to find out, they were not surprised, they felt the problem long before me. I expect the deacons will meet with pastor tomorrow, then the waste will collide withe the ventilating device. Told her parents the whole thing tonight, they were not completely in the dark. Told my Mom. I will tell the D14 in the morning, but according to the other girls, she is not unaware anyway. So all the people I thought I was protecting already knew,

I guess tomorrow is, goodbye fantasy, welcome to the real world. The toothpaste is out of the tube.

I still love my wife and want to try. Help me out.

Good job! I would stand by her by helping her end her affair and do the right thing. Tell everyone, especially the OM's wife.

My suggestion would be to leave that church so your W is not triggered every time she goes there.

I will never go there again.

I am worried about my wife. She has been distressed, she is very bad tonight, but acting funny, lire she wants me to talk, but doesn't. Very angry. Turning everything around.

I guess the deacons ended up talking to the pastor tonight. He lied his way out enough that I do not think anything is going to be done. I had a lot of evidence, but they are protecting the church, it went through something similar a few years ago. Another reason I will never go again.

I made sure I pointed out to my wife that he lied to protect his hide and left her hung out to dry.

Just hope to get through the next several weeks. I have been doing Plan A for months, except the part about exposing the affair, little things like that. Didn't work do well.

HI mmmherb.

my husband did much the same as you with the carrot bit of plan A. It wasn't until after the A was over and exposed that I suddenly realised how lovely H had been and what an idiot I had been. All the work he'd been putting in in the previous months didn't go to waste.

Just wanted share to give you encouragement

Herb, if she ends contact with her lover, you will start to see a difference. Has the OMW been given all of this information too?

That's plain sick. I'd go to that church one last time just to tell a few highly respected parishoners why I wasn't coming back.

And if you have not exposed to the OMW yet, please tell her and stop keeping this evil alive.

Not from me, I kind of figured that would happen after the meetings.

W is very depressed, has been for a while. I really think she checked out of our marriage a long time ago, don't have much hope right now. I have read a lot of things on here and followed a lot of threads. I expected her to say many of the things she said. But she is very resolute in saying it is over. I don't know if the stories I read on here are common, or just to sell books and seminars.

I don't know if she will stay home or not. I have told her I don't want her to go, told her everything our marriage means to me and how I see the past and my lacking. Told her this over and over the last several months. I know it did no good while the A was still going on. Have been very calm, surprising myself. She has a very low self worth right now, the circumstances of our marriage added to that, I withdrew and she felt rejected. Looking back, I there were many times she told me pretty explicitly that she needed more, but I was the typical blind husband, maybe it is too late.

Just wanted to tell you that I'm living a story where my wife expressed over and over that the marriage was over. I stuck with Plan A and she would come back to me, then go back the OM. Finally I couldn't take it anymore and told her I was done. Then she was very sorry and wanted to save the marriage. It was up and down more after that, but the recent turn has her working very hard to save the marriage. Just want to tell you that I had the same worries as you, but that it is real and the MB methods are as sound as they come. Once your wife gets through withdrawal, you may see some real changes in her. Remember - she didn't leave the marriage, she had an affair. This means the marriage wasn't done in her eyes when the affair began, and it's the effect of the affair to make the marriage seem hopeless. If she sees a chance for forgiveness and to keep her life and her marriage, she very well may come around. It probably has as much to do with you as anything. If you want the marraige then fight for it. Don't listen to her too closely. Her mind is in a very confused and dark place.

She has talked to her parents this morning, she knows she has made a mess. I just talked to my D20 and W is on the way to her apt. at school to talk. My D is struggling with how she could have done this and not considered all the people she was hurting, I told her she had every right to ask that question. I told her that people involved in affairs can't see anything but the relationship and are willing to do anything to keep it.

I hope it goes well.

I have been reading your story off and on, thanks for the encouragement.

Can you imagine what they went through, knowing "something" was wrong, and maybe even knowing exactly what was wrong -- yet feeling like they couldn't say anything to anyone about it?

If they talked to WW, she'd be angry.
If they talked to you, your world would come crashing down.

That's a lot of burden on a young person, a burden that is not theirs to carry. You did GREAT by speaking honestly with them.

I encourage you to also tell OMW in person, and give her a copy of the emails too.

Your WW will swear the M is over, and that she has no feelings for you, and hasn't for a long long time. Don't listen to that. Set your own goals, stick to them, and post here for encouragement.

While the MB books are great and I hear from other posters here that the weekends and phone counseling are without equal, it is not all a gimmick to sell some books and tapes. There are plenty of folks here (and many more who no longer frequent the boards) who used books from the library and never paid one red cent to turn their marriages around. The advice you will get here is from staunch MB believers, but we don't make any money off of encouraging you to follow Harley's principles.

Herb, please contact her ASAP and give her all the information you have. You would not believe how ignorant people are about the craftiness of adulterers so it would not surprise me if the church told him to go home and tell his wife and trusted him to do that. Someone to needs to make DAMN SURE this woman has the full truth and team up with her to make sure the affair is killed for good. You can work together and compare notes in this regard.,

But please tell her YOURSELF. Leaving this to chance is too great of a risk.

Please, please expose to OMW and to the church parishoners ASAP.

Well, I just sent a long email to OMW. Had to send it to her work address, that was the only way I knew to contact her. Also sent her scans of some of what I had. I hope you guys are right.

Wife is staying at her parents tonight, I don't know if she will come back.

Why is it that I feel that I have just blown any chance of ever getting back with my wife. But I realize I had no chance at all with things remaining like they were. I have so little hope. I did not realize how much I loved her until I started trying to love her like I should have all along.

I know that everyone says that the fog must lift and withdrawal take place before things can change. I just don't really know how long ago it has been since she did love me. It was well before all of this occurred, I can see in looking back.

I made such a mess out of my marriage, I wonder if I can love someone or if someone can love me, or if they do, will they regret it.

It is because you men are WIRED to be terrified of his wife's anger. But keep in mind that your marriage can survive some temporary anger; it can't survive an affair. What you have just done was the most impactful and effective thing you could do for your marriage. As long as it was kept secret you were helping it THRIVE.


I have more hope today than I did before. I didn't think you would make it when you first posted, but this tells me that do have what it takes to save your marriage, if it can be saved.


That is the rule, rather than the exception. But it doesn't matter. If you follow this program you can fall back in love again.

Don't despair, Herb. Your marriage is much more likely to recover now. You did a great thing for your marriage and for your wife. Some day she will thank you for fighting for her.

Herb, do her parents know all about the affair and with WHOM? Can she get away with seeing the OM from their house? Will they tolerate her adultery and is she there so she can sneak off wtih the OM?

Herb, I just want to let you know how proud I am that you have exposed to all the right people. I'm in the same boat you are and I have set my exposure date. Just have to get all my ducks in a row, so to speak. I'm praying for you and your family.

Her parents know, I told them who last night after I had revealed it to the deacons. They had know there was someone last fall, but did not know who and thought it was past. I thought it was past then too. But that was before I saw the danger in storing combustible things so close to each other.

They will not tolerate it. I am glad she is there. She has been changing in a lot of ways even before this, her mother is one who always makes her daughters think that they are not living up to what she expects, even when they are over 40. Their relationship needs a lot of repairing, the fact she is over there, facing them, may be a good thing.

As far as seeing him, I am as certain as I can be in a case like this that there was never really any seeing of each other, going on dates, things like that. The relationship started as him counseling her, both were vulnerable. He is older (56ish), has had some health issues, a walking mid life crisis. Not that I am saying it is an excuse, but the were a lot of meetings at church and such, during the day, in the open. She told me once, way back when they first tried to end it, that they hat met at a Veterans Cemetery and walked once (he is an old marine). This has been so intense and hard to end, and I am very sure there has been no sex. (Snooped a lot). I realize that doesn't matter much in my prospects, but I am glad.

Well, I need to take some meds to sleep.

Lot's of good coaches on here. I wonder sometimes if they just enjoy reading about the fallout

"enjoy???" You aren't kidding. And the reason is because we know the more conflict caused in the affair, the more likely the affair is to end. And the more likely the affair is to end, the more likely the marriage will make it.

People here KNOW how effective exposure is in killing an affair so they REJOICE when it is done. Dr. Harley's prophetic words: "When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. [color:#993399][size:20pt]Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery."[/size] [/color]

I just want to thank everyone, especially the regulars, for taking so much time to help guide the ones of us that are finding themselves in the situations that we never thought we would. Every one is different, but really the same. It was impossible for me to think rationally, as is evident in my first postings.

If I had confronted and had the emails from last fall as evidence way back when, maybe this would not have gotten as far.

Since my initial postings, I read and re-read the articles on this site, looked at many of the threads, and finally made the plans to do what I had to do. Learned how to be pretty sneaky on here as well.

Let me share some of my experience. I have known many things a long time, months in fact. I tried to bring about the end of things by personal meetings, using guilt, doing the right thing, etc, It would work at times, but only temporarily. I have learned the wisdom of the board that affairs will not end on their own by using rational thought, it doesn't exist in them. At best, like in my case, I believe, the relationship changed into a not so intense thing, but stayed very friendly and secret. I know that it was just a matter of time before something would fan it higher.

After discovering an email about two weeks ago, I confronted W and OM, turned up the pressure, but did not expose. This was a big mistake, if you are in my shoes. All that did was temporarily stop the contact, and it put me in the position that W felt I was blackmailing her. I had a big hammer I could drop if she did not do what I wanted. Not very healthy for our relationship.

But I read these boards, put together an exposure strategy, snooped and found things that I printed. I hoped and prayed I would never use it, but based on my W's refusal to try certain things, I knew deep down I would. So I watched and waited for the inevitable and blew the lid.

So, in short, I can say that from what I have read on these boards, that the collected wisdom can't be denied. I read my life story written by people I had never met, and I saw the future foretold, even if I didn't want to believe it.

I guess what I am saying, based on what I have read here, in other books, seen on DVDs, is although the details may be unique in each situation, they are really not. Sadly, this is universal and predictable, both how it happens and how to get out.

Some marriages can't be saved, I suspect. But if one can be, it just seems that this is the best way to do it. It just rings too true.

Herb, bless your heart for listening to us! Much of what MB teaches is counterintuitive and surely not what popular culture teaches. But you hit on a couple of very important things that make all the difference between winning and losing this battle.


This understanding is critical. A wayward mind is an intoxicated mind that does not respond to reason. They have the same mental impairment as a falling down drunk. So, to attempt to use reason on a person who has no powers of reason is futile. It is better to throw the drunk into jail [metaphorically] than it is to attempt reason with him. Waking up in jail makes a huge impact!

Even worse is trying to negotiate with the WS. That is like negotiating with a terrorist. This is a person who is self will run riot with an active addiction to protect! They don't ever fight fair and will only use any concessions to advance their addiction. Terrorists only respond to STRENGTH. In the case of a marriage, it needs to be a MIXTURE of both a carrot and a stick.



Exactly! First off, it usually just drives them further underground and secondly, if there is a "threat" of exposure there, the affairees VERY OFTEN go to the targets first and pre-empt the BS with a highly spun story. The story is something like this "BS is a jealous wacko who imagines that everyone wants to sleep with his wife. He has mental problems." Then when you do expose, your credibility is shot and exposure targets will be hostile. I have seen this happen so many times over the years.

Herb, you did a great thing for every one involved by exposing this affair. I predict your wife will come around. Your marriage is very salvagable if you implement an effective program of recovery once she gets away from the OM. You can fall in love again.

Good job, my friend!

I need some real advice in another area as well.

I know that the key to ever reconciling is to provide love deposits, as they are called here, and not withdraw.

If I make arrangements to set up my own checking account and start to do things to prepare for the eventuality of divorce, is that drawing a line in the sand, would it do a of of harm? I want to just leave things alone for now, but wonder if it is wise. How long should I wait?

I would not prepare for divorce, but I would suggest that you protect yourself financially. For example, if your accounts are together, you might want to move that money for now so it is not plundered.

I just went and got several thousand dollars of savings bonds that are in both our names (Herb or Mrs Herb) and took them to a different place for safekeeping. She will never know they're gone for a while.

Luckily, we don't have a ton of cash in our savings and checking right now (how ironic or stupid does that sound)

Well, wife just left, she had come to get some things, going back to her folks. D14 went with her tonight.

We talked some, I really expect to get served with some kind of papers soon.

I expressed how this was not necessary, how much I loved her. Told her that I realized how little I had given over the last 20 years and told her I could do it now. She has built a thick wall around her heart, I helped build it by making her feel rejected over the years of our marriage. Looking back, I feel like the biggest fool of all time.

Of course, she says she can't even remember loving me, all those things. I told her that I realize that I lost her heart, that it wasn't stolen from me. But she is pretty stubborn.

I don't think the anger will go away, honestly. Sometimes, I think a person just checks out and leaves, and there is no turning back. This is one of them, I fear. I mean, there was not a lot of fulfillment for a long time, why should she believe in it now?

It always does. She is the crack addict who is furious that you snatched her crack. When she sobers up she won't be angry anymore.


They all check out and leave. Otherwise they wouldn't have an affair. But most can and do turn back.


This is the rule rather than the exception. There usually is an unfullfilling marriage in these cases. But it takes 2 people to screw up a marriage, Herb. It didn't get that bad all on its own.


Weknowweknowweknow, this is classic fogbabble. Let me guess, she "hasn't loved you in years" altho you have plenty of evidence to the contrary? Even so, just because she did not love you in the past does not mean she won't love you in the future.

You have to realize - PLEASE LISTEN TO ME, HERB! - that she is intoxicated by her affair right now. Once she sobers up from the abstience, this will all change! She won't be talking like this. Right now she is angry because you took the crack pipe, but she will get over it soon. Just don't let her babble get to you!

Have you seen the movie Fireproof? If not, please go rent that and do what the BS did. He was in your same situation.

This is far from hopeless, Herb. I know you are scared to death because her anger looks very scary, but please believe me when I say that I have seen far worse than this come back from the dead. This is nothing more than an angry addict who misses her drug of choice.

Go get that movie Fireproof, please.

Sorry to keep replying to my own posts, but I feel completely alone. This lets me get some thoughts out of my head.

I feel so little hope right now, I think I feel worse than when this all started. I am not as depressed, I don't think, but I see things more realistically now, and hope fades away.

I like hearing the words of hope on here, but they have a short shelf life with me it seems. It has been so long since I felt any encouragement

Let me ask something, I have never really been able to know what it meant, maybe nothing.

The end of last August is when, the best I can figure, that the EA really began in earnest, because they ended it right away. Wife had been out of town for work one night, came home and went to bed, said she didn't feel good. The next day was Saturday, it was about 7:30 AM, I was up, straightening some things up. I had been sleeping down there for years,if that gives you a clue about the state of our marriage. She came down and sat on the couch, she never gets up that early on Saturday voluntarily. Since she was up so early, I had not made any tea for her, so I went to do that, when I came back she was crying, and told me she wanted me to leave. I was stunned. Left on Sunday. Then something happened that sometimes gives me hope, and sometimes just confuses me. As I was leaving, she said, "I still love you". I believe it was the next day we talked and she told me she had turned to someone else and who it was. That they had ended it that weekend. I do believe they tried to, but all the conditions were there to keep it going, including a confused BH. I had to leave for a while, but came back and told her that I was not OK with it happening and she said, "I'm Sorry" She also told me in the next day or so several details that sounded confessional and that they had stopped on that Friday, which explained her depression. That is about the level of what I understood, I thought it was something that could go away and we could still exist at that church together. If you have read the thread, you see what happened.

After that long winded story, what I want to ask is if you think her telling me she loved me in a time that she thought the A was over means anything. i want to think it means that there some love there, but I end up thinking that it was her easing some guilt. How about her telling me "Sorry" and telling me about it so quickly.

I know I am just hoping to grab some straws to get me through the night.

ok, Herb, I am going to tell you straight. She probably is not in love with you and hasnt been for a long time. You let your marriage die on the vine.

But you don't WANT the marriage you had in the past, Herb. That marriage has resulted in this AFFAIR. Surely you don't want that back? Do you want back the same messed up marriage that led to this? you would be crazy to want that back.

What you can have is a NEW MARRIAGE where you are in love again. That is what MB teaches. And he really means it and he really delivers.

So please leave the past in the past and focus on building a GREAT FUTURE, because now you have a chance! For the first time you really have a chance as long as contact has really ended.

I feel more hopeful about your situation today than I did when you posted last month. You had great reason to feel hopeless then. You don't now. NOW you have a chance.

I think you are being misled about the hopefulness of your situation BY HER ANGER. Could that be it? To my astonishment, men are very susceptible to their wive's anger. They are downright terrified of it. We have men on here who can't even conduct the most basic strategy because their ONLY GOAL is to avoid their wive's wrath. They will let their marriage go to the dogs in the divorce courts before they will risk her wrath.

Could that be why you are so unable to see the true picture? Are men just wired to be blinded by a wife's anger?

Have a copy a friend lent me, but it haven't watched it yet. I guess I will do it tomorrow, I was hoping to watch it together some day.

nooooo, you really need to watch it alone, Herb!! It will give you hope. The man in the movie did a brilliant plan A, he stood up to the OM [had a come to Jesus with him and told him to leave his wife alone] and did a brilliant job winning his wife back. he got very discouraged at times, but held out and saved his marriage.

Melody, you are obviously right. I am just needy, pitifully so, it seems. I did one of the Five Love Languages surveys once and words of affirmation along with touch came up high. Well. I ain't getting no touch. So I could be fishing for the other. I need friends right now, and I feel that you are one who tells me straight.

Have the love dare book, but haven't been reading it lately. not much chance to put it to use. Don't feel like reading my Bible right now either. Have been reading SAA

Herb, you really, really need to watch that movie. It will give you some much needed hope. your situation is very hopeful! I would not tell you this if I didn't believe it. You are in better shape today than you were last month. You are just nervous by her anger.

But what you have done, Herb, is the equivalent of snatching the crack pipe from the crack head. Sure, the crack head is FURIOUS and is out looking for a new crack pipe IN VAIN, but she won't find it. Her druggy days are over so she will now sober up.

As she sobers up her fury will subside as she accepts that her crack ho days are DONE, DONE, DONE! And as she sobers up she can work on your marriage with you.

Last month, she was still getting daily fixes of crack so there was no hope. Today, the crack is gone!!

Surving an Affair is a very good read, Herb. I think Dr H has it RIGHT in every way.

Herb - Please listen to Mel. You and your marriage CAN survive your wife's anger - it cannot survive an ongoing affair.

Dr Harley says that exposure mrks the start of recovery and it certainly did in my marriage. My wife's affair was dealt a fatal blow with exposure and ended a week after d-day.

All is not lost or hopeless. Exposure has most probably saved your marriage. Infidels don't seem to like everyone seeing their lurve for the sleazy adulterous pile of crap it is.

Keep your chin up. You have dealt the affair a fatal blow.

Herb, Mel came on my thread early on and talked some sense into me. One of the first lessons I learned in this journey was to stop being afraid of my wife's anger. It has always been an emotion she expresses with great zeal, and I've always tried to just keep it from flaring up. When I stopped being afraid of it, it stopped having any power over me. Amazing change. I still have to remind her sometimes that her anger just rolls right off my back, but it was a very important moment in changing the course of the affair. Hang in there and just stand up for what is right and stand up for yourself. You can do it in loving but firm ways. Your wife will respect you for it.

She needs to hear from you.


No. Not just to sell stuff - you can get almost everything here free in the FAQ's etc. The books just fill it all out. The Seminar is great but this site is not here just to make money.

What your wife SAYS now is as a result of the fog she is in. Don't take it to heart. If she establishes NC with OM this will rapidly change.


It's not too late. Press ahead.

My wife would have said the same just after d-day. Recovery is indeed possible. Follow the program for restoring romantic love to your marriage when the affair has ended.

Thanks for all the encouragement. I am trying to have faith, but it is faith in things unseen. I am very alone right now.

I will just wait until tomorrow. The OMW should get my email by then, wonder what will happen.

This ordeal has been good for my waistline, however. I have gone from 308 lbs to 263 since Sept. and that includes me lifting weights and bulking up some. I am a big guy, but not that big.

I think I saw someone on here call it the infidelity diet. It works, but I don't really recommend it.

Is there way to change the title of this thread, I don't think it reflects the discussion now.

Another question.

What should I say to W when she is here getting things to take to her folks, clothes and things like that. I have been telling her things like "I wish you would stay", "There is no reason go", and of course "I love you, I really want this to work", stuff like that. This always give her reason to tell me how it is over, etc.

Should I say things like that now, or just ask if she needs anything.

Yeah, I lost 35 pounds in a month and a half. Works wonders. I weigh what I weighed in high school.

Yeah, quit doing that. Don't act needy, pleading or scared. That is REAL unattractive. Just smile and go about your business.

Why is she leaving? How does she explain that?

To change the thread title, hit mod notify and ask the mods to change it. Tell them what you want it changed to.

Last night, she said "Yes I was wrong, but what you did was wrong too." She basically says she doesn't even want to look at me. I believe she is very embarrassed by the affair, and is mad that I told her parents and the kids. She said I should have come to her and let her tell them. Other crocks like that.

Herb, you did the right thing. You can't depend on her to tell anyone. She could and would have spun it to her advantage. She was in control and you took that control away. My WH is going to be the same way. I've had a small dose already and, while he's arrogant about it, it has made a small change in him. Chin up. You are doing great. And like Mel said, stop acting needy. She's knows you are already. Time to show her you are different. Act like it doesn't bother you at all. It will probably really make her mad. But she will get the hint that you CAN live without her. That WILL make an impact.

Well if it was things seen it wouldn't require faith would it!

Believe God and pray. Mix that with action such as you are taing and you can't lose. You will prevail in this.

Don't be needy. Be pleasant.

So what you did wrong was telling people??

I am sorry to laugh, but that is just so lame! Herb, don't let her bother you. Like I said, the crackhead is just angry that you took away her crackpipe. She is SUPPOSED to be mad. Her anger reflects a BULLSEYE HIT of her affair!!!

Unless I read something wrong, didn't you say her parent's already knew there was someone but thought it was over and your children weren't surprised because they already suspected?

Perhaps you can politely point that out to her.

Just finished Fireproof.

Man there were a lot of parallels. I've been sleeping in the living room for years. Had a problem with the porn as well. I never thought about it as an addiction, but I know it was. I see it for the filth it is now.

Movies have happy endings, maybe I can to.

I am afraid of one thing. I wonder how I can show love to her if she does not live under the same roof as me. I wonder how I can get her to come home?

Hang tight, she'll be back. You might also have a word with her mother about giving her the boot.

Did you see how the guy in Fireproof didn't give up even when he was discouraged? And how he scared the crap out of the creep who was sniffing around his wife?

That is the one thing that really makes me furious at myself, why didn't I really take a stand at the very beginning. Just one more reason my wife thought I didn't care, I suspect. I hope I haven't botched this whole thing months ago.

It's not over till the fat lady sings - and sometimes not even then.

Now all I need is for her mother to have a stroke and me give her 25000 dollars, except I don't have $25000

shaddup, Herb!

Herb, why not just do the footwork and turn the outcome over to God? It isn't going to help you to worry yourself to death. Just focus on being as pleasant as possible and don't let her upset you with her ire. This will blow over. At least now you have a CHANCE. You didn't before.

Just hang tight. You are closer to recovery today than you were last week. And you have also proven to HERB that he has the NADS to do the tough stuff when neccessary. YOU CAN COUNT ON HERB. I am sure you have to feel somewhat reassured about that, right?

HERB IS A MAN WHO CAN BE COUNTED ON.

Thanks Mel, I do feel like I have finally done something for once, maybe the first time. I have been praying a lot, thanking God for holding me, I am so sad and numb I can barely feel it. But it is getting better. She just left, very mad. But some of the things she said leave me with the impression that working things out at least is crossing her mind, even if begrudgingly. But I have let myself get to high before. But now I know I sound like Eeyore.

ARe you letting her know that her anger is scaring you so badly? [a bad move!] Or are you being strong, pleasant and attractive?

What did she say exactly?

Herb, here is what I would focus on besides being as pleasant and attractive [versus scared and needy] as possible. Focus on being a LEADER in your marriage and leading your marriage out of this mess.

Right now you are letting an angry, drunk wayward do the leading while you sit around waiting for orders from a DRUNK DRIVER. Instead of letting a drunk drive the car, how about takng the keys and drive your marriage to safety with an effective plan to save your marriage?

Why not set the AGENDA yourself and give her an opportunity to come aboard?

For example, after a few days her fury will die down. I would set her down and let her know that you do have hope for your marriage and would be willing to stay in the marriage as long as she agreed to a PROGRAM OF RECOVERY. You are willing to give her a chance to earn your forgiveness. You know your marriage was terrible for years but believe you have a plan that can rebuild your marriage and make you both happy. This plan can create romantic love again.

Then hand her the outline of Harley's program for Recovery.

Four Rules to Guide
Marital Recovery After an Affair

"This is what it will take to recover our marriage. I do not want our old marriage back, but I would be willing to try this plan.."

Lead your wife out of the darkness, Herb. Stand up for your marriage..

"I am willing to give this marriage a try if we work to repair the damage that has been done. I am not willing to stay in the marriage as it was. So if you are willing to do this, I would be willing to reconcile."

You drive the car, Herb. Not her. if there is no plan of recovery, you won't have a marriage anyway. But you can't sit around and wait for a drunken wayward to lead you of the darkness. She only knows how to screw up your marriage she sure doesn't know how to fix it.

You have to show her the way. Show her the way, Herb. Be a leader in your marriage. You have been a follower. That has to change. Be a leader..

Herb:

Your conflict avdidance has gotten you to this point.

Sleeping on the couch downstairs....
Living your life....
She living hers...

However....

She is currently sleeping at her mothers because you finaly stood up and said "STOP".

And she left. But she WILL be back. Where is she going to go?

I think you need to go collect your daughter from her grandmothers. And speak to your mother in law about what your plan is. And invite your WW home. She may decline. But ASK her. She is WELCOME in your home as long as she in NC with here OM.

Daughter should not have her life disrupted further because mother has gone insane.

You have changed from a SERF into a KNIGHT. No more conflict avoidance for you. WW is operating from the seat of her pants. SHE HAS NO PLAN except her anger to keep you in line.

You have MB. And MB Has plans to help you navigate your way thru this. Your on the storm-tossed ship, and until recently, you never had a map of where the rocks are, or the shoals or even the light houses. MB provides you with a map. What WW will do, try to do, jump at and manipulate. SHE thinks SHE is the first one to ever think of these things. She isn't, she is one of millions. Unfortunately for her, you already have the script. But the final scenes are NOT written yet. WW can return. to a BETTER marriage. Or she just may go. Your in for a fight. Breaking up the A was the first step. What happens next is ALOT harder.

But it IS a fight worth fighting. IF you lose? Then you fought the good fight. If you win? Its what you wanted.

Even your past month indicates how much the information here helps you. You read the threads and the links and they detailed all the things the WW had done, was doing and how she was acting. And then you exposed, and suddenly, your in charge of this boat. It more fun to be CAPITAN, rather than putting coal in to the boiler..

LG

I am reading "Surviving An Affair" right now and just getting to those chapters. I will just have to wait for the dust to settle and then talk to her about it.

She was still just mad about exposure day in general, in her mind I am just trying to get the kids to take sides, like I am just trying to win somehow. One of her legitimate beefs about our marriage is that I always let her be the bad guy with the kids. She usually got to the point of getting on them before I did, so it always looked like she as mean and i just joined in after the fact. There is a lot of hard work to do that we have never addressed. I see it now, just waiting for the day we can do it together.

Just a word of advice to anyone inclined to hear. God's word is never wrong. A husband should lead his family. I am not talking about domination. I was guilty of abdicating a lot of things to her and not giving her support. Lead by showing love and putting your wife first. Lead spiritually, by being a godly man.

Have you been following me around. I think conflict avoidance was my middle name.

I guess technically that would be middle names, but who's counting

Oh man, OMW is a teacher and this is spring break week. I don't know when she will get my email. I don't know how else to reach her.

Can you call her house? Offer to meet her someplace. But diguise your # beforehand by dialing *67 and then her phone #. That way the OM won't see your # and disconnect the phone. If he does answer, I would just ask for his wife!

The other option is to drive to their house and knock on the door.

No home phone number. I might have to pay a visit. But I suspect she is out of town, they have family nearby, grandkids to see. I will try.

Man, this standing up for your marriage stuff is scary.

Fireproof is so close to reality. But I think that is because most of the stories like mine are in essence very much the same. Wife came home this morning to get ready for work. I took her up a cup of tea like I always do. She said "I don't need any tea"

But she had it in her hand drinking it when she came downstairs.

Some e-mails get blocked from teacher's e-mail accounts. If you have never e-mailed her before, this can happen. I have sent e-mails to my kids' school and have had e-mails blocked even when I have sent them e-mails in the past.

If you sent an attachment with the e-mail, it will likely get blocked. I think school accounts have strong spam filters.

I would not rely on her e-mail account as a way of contacting her. She probably has the ability to check her school e-mail account even when not in school. However, the probability of her doing this is not knowable. Also, there is a good chance that your e-mail will not get through to her account. You should find another way of talking to her yourself and delivering to her some hard copies of your evidence.

Sounds good that your wife came to your home. At some point, you should move back into your bedroom. Others will give you their thoughts on timing for doing that. I would tend to say do it now, but I'd check with Mel on that.

Just got back from trying to make a delivery to their house. No one answered. I looked in the window and I think I saw a purse, so she may have been sleeping in. I will try later today.

I was wondering about getting back into the bedroom. She has not come back home, just getting things as she needs them.

Of course, to me it seems that if she does agree to a plan to make this work then I should move back to the bedroom. I really want to, not necessarily for sex (although that will be a welcome sign if it occurs, but I think I will have to wait on that).

One of the many things that added up to our big gap was the fact that I was quite overweight. I was shaped like a barrel, not a big sloppy mess, just a keg around my chest and waist. I know this made relations less than they could have been, and it also contributed to a snoring issue. On of the reasons I left the bedroom, at least to my compartmental conflict avoiding mind, was so we could both get some sleep. It got easier to stay there than to address the real issues.

I am actually now getting close to the weight I was when we were married. I know in some ways that ticks W off, why did I have to let disaster happen, make her feel like it didn't matter to me for all these years, before I got with it. Ticks me off, too.

I hope my snoring is better now, haven't had anyone to be able to tell me yet.

Do any of the snoring remedies really work. I have read a lot about the pillar procedure, where they put some inserts in your soft palate to stiffen it. But none is covered by insurance, it is about 2000 bucks. But it would be worth it if it worked and helped is stay in the same room. Anything would.

One thing that you guys have said to me rings very true now. The fact that I finally took some decisive action and quit waiting around for others to "do the right thing" has really made a difference in how I feel. I have been going to a Christian based counselor ever since August. It did me a lot of good, helped me to realize a lot of the problems with me that needed to be corrected. Had a session today. I have told her all about what was going on trying to get through this. I called her when I was on the way to expose last week, so she was interested to see how thing were going. For the first time I felt like I had a plan. Don't know what the results will be, but I know what I am doing. Didn't feel I needed to schedule another session, just told her I would call if I needed to.

Tried twice more to deliver my package, I hope I can get it to her this week before spring break is over and she starts working again.

Herb, I would just move right on back in there. Have you tried Breathe Right strips or the SPRAY they make? My sister swears by the spray.

Just talked to wife, she says that she cannot come home with me there. Wonders why I would make her leave when she and D14 are so close, Blah Blah Blah. It is hard to make D14 have to choose one over the other.

Should I leave for a while, just wondering.

I tried the strips and the spray, but that was back when I was FAT. Doesn't look like I have to worry about it for a while. I know you guys say different, but it looks too far gone to me.

Do not leave.

Good job!

You should NOT LEAVE YOUR HOUSE.

Not even as a peace offering?

NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do not leave under any circumstances.

Let me see, you recommend for me to stay put in my house?

You guys, he is not leaving!! HE already had his Come to Jesus on dat!!

OMG!! I missed this post! My bad. ARE YOU CRAZY?!??

Of course she can come home with you there!! You call her up and tell her you would never make her leave. She is perfectly free to come home. And that DD should be in her own home too. But you have no reason to leave and won't be doing so.

Don't you DARE EVEN THINK about leaving!!

Contacting the Pastor's wife should not be difficult.

It comes in temporary waves, I think.

Stop pilin' on.

Why is it that even now I feel bad when I do something that upsets her? maybe I am crazy.

I have told her that in so many words over and over. Just not been long enough yet, I think. She is very stubborn, doesn't give in easily. When I told her about the exposure, I think it was the first time I have ever broken her down, she looked defeated. But for her, that just makes her more stubborn after a while.

Yeah well, we are stubborn too. And I am ARMED AND DANGEROUS FROM TEXAS!!

if she asks you to leave, just politely say NO THANKS.

Well, nothing much different happened last night. She came home for a while, I am not sure what for, maybe to change clothes. I was not there when she got there. We talked a little, nothing different came out of it. Maybe it seems that we get incrementally further at times, but I have never been able to really judge, I just look for things and my mind puts the most positive spin on them I think. Came home to get ready for work this morning, didn't really talk much.

I still think she is angry and embarrassed. She says it was between me and her, I should not have brought the kids and her parents in on it. Nothing I would not expect her to say for a while. It has only been 4 days really. She says I did it to set the kids against her. She feels, with some justification, that I always let her be the bad guy and now they are blaming all the problems on her. Part of that is the difference in her and my personalities, and a big problem in our relationship was that I just let things go on like that and never really addressed the issues, we never really talked.

But now, the issues of the last 20 years keep coming up. Her attitude is,"I made one mistake and you tell the world, but I tried and tried for years, never brought the kids into our issues." She is talking about me staying downstairs and using porn, she is correct in that. I abandoned our bed, and found a substitute, I never looked at it that way then, I felt rejected, but of course it made her feel rejected too. I made a big mess in our relationship, not actively, but passively, and in some ways I think it is harder to overcome, this feeling of hers that I just really don't care.

But, even in her anger I have hope. She expresses the hurt she feels, I like to think that shows it still means something to her, deep down. I never deny my part in our problems, she really did cry out to me a lot, I never really saw it for what it was. I have a lot of deposits to make to get out of the red, if she ever starts accepting them.

I screwed my part of out marriage. She did hers as well. She hung on a long time, I hope there is still a little left in her.

Well, she just called. We are having car troubles, our old Taurus that D18 drives has radiator problems, getting to the point of diminishing returns to fix it. Was supposed to take W's car in for a tuneup, but didn't. She called about how the money was tight, and she didn't know where she would be living, etc. It does seem to me that she is bringing up the conversations. Even last night, I wasn't really going to talk about issues, but she actually hung around and said enough to start it going. Maybe we will get it out a little at a time.

Told her we could do it together. I was ready to take my part like I should have all along.

I always let her worry about the money before, too.

I am a really good guy. Not a really bad husband, but I was far from a good one.

Maybe you guys are starting to wonder why she would want to come back.

Did you move back into your bedroom? That is part of being a LEADER and not a follower in your marriage. I would move back in there and let her know that is where the future lies in this marriage that you are sorry you ever moved out. Might as well get your money's worth out her anger and get things done.

See how she is coming around? I told you her anger would die.

She's a big girl, she will have to figure it out on her own. Not with family money, of course.

No luck on delivery again this morning. I think they are out of town. There was a regularly scheduled deacons meeting last night, I drove by, there were a lot of cars there, I don't know if they have that big a turnout normally. His car wasn't there, I don't think. I believe the pastor normally attends. Have no idea what the discussion topics were. Know what I hope it was.

Drove by their house and there were no lights on.

I have been sleeping in our bed by myself. If she comes back, I will stay there.

Just saw wife, I was at her folks asking father-in-law about the radiator problems we are having, when I left, W was in the driveway, came to eat lunch. She ask me for a separation, meaning for me to leave the house. Said she was too angry to work on things now and me staying home and making D14 have to choose was making her more angry. That we couldn't be together without fighting. I told her my position, that she should do what she had to do. I had done nothing to have to leave and I wanted to make things work. Guess we'll see what happens.

If I am forced to leave, does it to you like Plan B is in order? Doesn't seem like Plan A has started yet.

How would you be FORCED to leave YOUR home? About the only way she could accomplish that is if she goads you into doing something stupid and calls the authorities to get your thrown out of the home. Right about now would probably be a good time to carry a little tape recorder in your pocket. If she starts going psycho, pull it out and let her know you're recording the conversation.

We HAVE had WWs who set up a confrontation, call the police and yell domestic abuse, just to get the BH out of the home.

I thought maybe she could file for a legal separation and I would be forced out.

Why would you be forced to leave? She's the one that was screwing around. Don't let her drive you out of YOUR house and ruin the relationship with YOUR daughter.

She could file for one but I think she'd have to have pretty good "cause" to have you put out. The Judge may tell HER to leave since she's the one that wants it. Start documenting!

By documenting, what all do you mean. I have the emails I used for exposure. Should I keep a journal or something?

By whom? Unless the Texas Rangers show up with UZIs and a court order signed by GOD, you aren't going anywhere.

If she wants to "separate," she can leave.

you did good! Just keep telling her "no thank you!"

No, you can countersue on the grounds of ADULTERY and drag the OM into court to testify under oath about his adulterous affair with your W. Then maybe your wife would need to do the leaving... If she files, let her know you will be obtaining an attorney and countersuing. Make sure she knows that her adultery will be entered into evidence.

THAT will cool her jets..

See, she still thinks you are going to allow a wayward to continue to tyrannize your family. It is time to disabuse her of that notion. You are LEADING THE WAY NOW instead of a fogged out, adulterous wayward. She needs to get in the back seat and shut up.

I found the thread on documenting. I will start today.

Is it legally (not morally) considered adultery if there was no sex. I would make him testify, and I would have all the cell phone records I need to show how long it went on. I wish I had been aware enough, not so naive, to have all the emails I sent and saw. A lot of them could get me in trouble, though. I broke the law to read them.

Just thinking ahead, preparing for the worst. Much of what I read in the fall was because I was able to read her work emails from home. Her work is a place that I suspect would have to keep all the emails archived. Would I be able to get those by a subpoena if it became necessary, as long as it was specifically emails between those two and no confidential information was contained. How about his personal email account he sent them from. Are those available.

I have to be honest, this is really wearing me down, I wonder if it is worth it. I do really care about her, but wonder why right now. She seems to not care about me at all. I am very tired inside.

This is all hypothetical so don't get bogged down in irrelevant details. Just let her know you will not cooperate and will fight any legal action with the full force of the law. If she thinks you will make it easy on her, she will be more inclined to go that route. So, do your best to scare the bejeesus out of her.. Got it??

Yes, it is worth it. And I know you are tired. But you have just won a huge battle and now have CHANCE. It is too early to give up.

Thanks, that is what I felt, I think. But this really blows.

Some more advice needed. I keep thinking of all these things, but I don't really believe I can make the wisest decisions at present.

I am tempted to send OM a message encouraging him to make sure all contact is ended and his exit from town is hastily achieved, otherwise he may have to decide if it is as easy to lie under oath in a courtroom as it was to a group of deacons and if he would like the cell records and emails to become part of the record.

Should I do something like this.

I still am waiting to let his wife know what I know, can't make the connection yet.

Herb - there is a 5% or less chance she hasn't had sex with OM.

I think that the deacons acted improperly if there was not sufficient evidence. Biblically two people needs to text against him. You will need to have funds to get recordings of the texts. Once these have been obtained, recontact the deacons. They are obliged to make proper judgement when the facts are presented.

If they don't, publish abroard!

Kill two birds with one stone: Once you inform his wife about what you know, she will likely want to access those e-mails from his personal e-mail account herself.

Bird one--inform OM's BW so she knows what is going on in her own life and marriage
Bird two--she will start snooping and help to ensure no contact. She may also have some thoughts on her husband's deacon meeting. Those deacons may also be gathering information themselves.

Like Mel said, stick to the here and now and your Plan.

herb,

In all honesty ... you have to be WILLING to help YOURSELF before any advice you receive will do any good.

Let's review what we know:

* Your WW had an A with your pastor.
* You are terrified of your WW.
* You have only made one half-hearted attempt at exposure to deacons, who really aren't involved in your personal life.
* You drove right past the church, when a deacons meeting was occurring, rather than confront all of them directly.

Look ... I used to get really angry with weak BH's that wouldn't stand up for themselves. Now, I try to see first if the BH has ANY ability to stand up for themselves before I bring out the 2x4's. Sadly, most of the time anymore, the 2x4's remain in their place and I just go about my business rather than try to make chicken salad out of chicken shi!t.

The cold hard facts are that MORE THAN LIKELY your WW had sex with the preacher. If that won't stir you to action, I'm afraid that there's not much an anonymous message board can do for you.

Personally, I would expect "righteous indignation" from a BH in your circumstances, followed by a story of how you kicked in the preacher's office door at the church, right before you put the real "fear of God" in him should he ever sniff around your WW again. The whole church would have been exposed at that point when the "right Reverend" had to explain to the congregation, deacons and his own W just why this crazy man kicked in his door and made him soil himself.

Then when your WW heard of what happened and got angry, I'd expect that same "righteous indignation" to prop you up, while you stand your ground and explain to her EXACTLY who and what CAUSED you to reach this level of "rigtheous indignation".

However, instead you cower from your WW's misplaced anger, while you wait on others (the deacons) to do your work for you.

Really ... you are one of about a half dozen "whipped" active BH's on MB right now, who refuse to make a decision, take a stand, or defend their boundaries with their WW's.

All of them have potentially salvageable situations, but NONE will likely ever be in a satisfying and fulfilling relationship.

I heard an observation a few months ago from Dr. Laura, of all people, that seems to be pertinent to your situation:


"American women have been systematically emasculating their husbands, and then using that as an excuse to leave them."

Think about that tonight!!!

Well I know that is the opinion here, but I read a lot of things for months, some she sent to friends, some to him. I have seen nothing to make me think that anything physical (by that I mean sex) occurred. Makes me feel better, but doesn't really change anything.

MyRevelation, what do you really think.

herb,

You might not like what I have to say, but you will always get it "straight" from me.

One thing I've learned in life is to not discount the experience of others who have travelled a path before me.

You can try to skate by with a glib little reply like the one above, but the FACTS haven't changed one bit.

There are people here who can help you "IF" you are willing to help yourself ... YOU MAKE THE CALL!!!

Well, I've told my kids, her folks, my folks, his bosses, as soon as his wife reads her email or I can find her at home she will know. He is under scrutiny, even more when his wife knows. I will encourage her to tell his D, her parents and his parents. I have no way of finding them. My wife is mortified that the people that have been informed know.

It's pretty easy to say just tell everyone, damn all the consequences, from an anonymous message board, as you say.

Your point is taken.

Herb, you are doing just great and don't let anyone [except me! ] tell you otherwise! Don't let the hothead contingent bother you. Hot air does not equal big man. Just put him on ignore or notify the mods.

You are doing everything you should be doing at this point.

What do you think the OMW knows about the affair?

I think she believes that it ended last August. I believe he told her my wife was too involved, and he stopped it. I know that is obviously not true. He is a trained counselor, he would know not to respond if that was the case. I talked to one of my friends who is one of the deacons involved, they don't really believe him, but with no more evidence than I had, they did not act, but he knows they are watching.

It is easy to say don't worry if your kids have to be part of a citywide scandal and undergo what they would have to.

She came by tonight. I told her my position, that if she wanted to come home and commit to working on our marriage then good, but if not, she could stay gone. She told me that she was coming home, but it would be a business arrangement, I could sleep wherever I wanted except in our bed. I told her I would be sleeping in the bed.

She was pretty mad. I guess she will be home, I can't lock her out. She'll probably lock me out of the bedroom.

A friend of ours father passed away, she and DD went to visitation, I went later. I told her that I did not want to be in a casket someday and go there knowing that I did not do everything to fight for her, that she was worth fighting for and worth loving.

It seems most of her anger is at the fact that I abandoned her emotionally for years (which I see is true) and now think that she should just love me again. That is not what I think, I know there is a lot of work to do, but she has not let very much go so far.

But there was no talk of going to court, although once when I told her I was not leaving, she said I would if we sell the house, I said I guess we both would.

DD is going to stay with her tonight. They were about to leave but American Idol was still on so they stayed to see the end of it. Wife was fighting back tears. I don't know what that means.

No most of her anger is because you interfered with her affair.

Yeah, I know you are right. But she does have some legitimate beefs, if we ever get far enough to address them.

So she probably has no idea at whatsoever that there was an affair. Likely, this snake told her your W was a nutjob who was pursuing him.

What is your evidence of the affair? If the church deacons did not believe it, can you go to a higher board?

She can't legally do that, though. I would take the lock off the door so she can't. And put a sleeping bag in the garage for her in case she doesn't want to sleep with you. [be a gentleman and put a nice rose in her sleeping bag ] But you should not leave your bed because she wants to punish you for standing up for yourself.

Don't feed a TYRANT.

What does your DD think about her adulterous mother? Has she been told the entire truth about her mothers adultery? Or is your WW being allowed to spin her with lies about her evil father?

p.s. Herb, you asked yesterday if you should leave your house to accommodate your sulky wayward wife.

A LEADER does not abandon his family in their time of NEED. A LEADER does not abandon his children, when they need his most, in order to appease a TYRANT. A LEADER stays and leads his family out of hell in their time of need. That is your job, Sir.

Herb - there is no doubt there were issues in your marriage that need to be addressed. But if there was no OM suddenly these issues wouldn't be insurmountable if you were prepared to address them.

In an affair, everything is magnified and made to seem worse than it is/was. Your wife has to do this so she can justify her affair.

When NC is in place she will have a rectal cranial extraction and things will change.

Herb - I have lived this nightmare myself. My wife left me and our home. I did exactly what you are being advised to do here. It does work.

If your wife is going to take the bedroom and lock you out, remove the locking mechanism of the b/r door.

Wife came home this morning to get ready for work. I was just getting out of the shower I use so we didn't speak. I got dressed and took her up her cup of tea, as usual. She was in the tub, I just set the cup on the sink and said good morning, no response. I was downstairs and she came to the stairs to tell me something about the car that we are having to decide what do do about. I asked her if she wanted me to fix her anything to eat, she said she couldn't eat anything and started to break down. I went up to see her. She was a distraught as I have ever seen. Told me I had won, I had broken her down, she had nothing left. Accused me of being angry and bitter. I told her I wasn't, and talked to her about how we could get through this. She was not defiant as she is sometimes. Said she didn't know me anymore. I take that as a good thing, that my change in attitude is affecting her.

She is quite depressed. She has been for a while, it started a while before the A, with our relationship really troubling her, the second daughter getting ready to fly the coop, both the older ones asserting their Independence in confrontational ways, and a ridiculously bad time at work all adding up at once. The reason she started the counseling was to try to get through it.

I stressed to her that I was here for her and would not abandon her again.

She is very confused, still foggy, I think. Plus the depression of what the exposure has brought added to her already depressed state. She is a mess, really. Hard to know what to do.

It is hard to figure out how people look at themselves. I have not really said much about her. She is very pretty, she is actually more beautiful now than when we married. I don't think I am exaggerating when I say there are not many 45 yr old women in this town that I would place above her. But, based on her relationship with her mother, she has this feeling that nothing she does is enough, she works her tail off, tries to do everything, to seek approval. She has been at her place of work for 20 years and has become the most vital person there in my opinion. But she still has a low self worth in some ways, a need for approval. My personality is quite different. Not to sound boastful, but I am very smart and was always able to do very well at anything with one half of my brain tied behind my back. And that was enough for me. I see that as a flaw, always have, but I can do more things, quickly, than most people, and I never really tried to be excellent, just better than others was good enough. Also, my father was a fireman, so he was away from home at work on a lot of nights, and on the other nights, many of them he was out working on something else, like drinking and catting around. So I think I believed that since I stayed at home and didn't drink, I always was at the kids activities, that I was doing fine. But I see now that I failed to give a lot of other things. With her personality, she took all of this as rejection, that I didn't find her desirable, etc. I took her reactions as rejection and avoided conflict like I did at home when I was a kid, don't let yourself get to deeply attached and you won't get hurt as bad. So the two of us synergisticly made things even worse.

You are doing just great, Herb. Continue to be a leader in your marriage and lead her out of this. Her depression comes mainly from her violation of her conscience. She is addicted to the OM and is in withdrawal. The best thing you can is stand strong for your marriage and lead her out of this darkness. Be supportive of anything that will HELP YOUR MARRIAGE and cast out anything you know will harm it.

You did really good!

The only thing left to do is to inform the OMW of the affair and get her on board with monitoring contact from her end. She can be a great ally in saving both your marriages.

Your wife is coming around. It sounds like she has surrendered and has accepted that her affair is over.

I would throw something out there about your DD. Your DD needs to be in her own home. It is not in her best interest to be yanked out of her home because your wife is angry about the consequences of her affair. Tell your wife DD needs to be in her own home. Say this-------------> it is not good for her to be dragged out of her home as a consequence of your affair. She needs to come home.

Your wife is not operating in your DD's best interest, Herb, and since you are the LEADER of this family, it will be up to you to correct that situation.

Does your DD know about the affair, Herb?

Yes

We should all be at home now.

All the kids will be in for the weekend.

We will need to figure out where to go on Easter.

About to try to make a delivery again. I think I have run out a tank of gas trying.

Awesome job! She's probably wondering where her H went. You know, the guy that she could intimidate with her anger and threats.

I agree with ML... you are on the right path.

I wish it didn't take so long for the withdrawal, I would like to feel some love again, heck even feeling some like would be welcome.

One downside to finally figuring out how I should be in our marriage is seeing what a chump I was in the past.

Herb, what do you usually do for Easter? How about having a nice big dinner at your house? You could go grocery shopping and plan out a menu. Tell your family that Easter dinner will be at your home. And invite your WW of course! Dinner served at 2:00 after CHURCH. [a new church, of course!]

We can help you plan a menu. Can your kids cook?

[
Herb, tell her that you do want her home but you are not interested in a business arrangment. That does not appeal to you. You would be interested, though, in working together to build a happy, fulfilled marriage.

PERFECT !
Have a real estate rental agreement ready for her to sign.

-A down payment equal to one month's rent (of course)
-Monthly rental (one half of mortgage payment)
-Shared expenses of food and utilities (she pays exactly 50%)
-A comprehensive list of "house rules" she must agree to follow
... including TV time she is allowed, phone time she is allowed, no pets allowed, no visitors without your prior approval ...

I AM joking .... don't do this .... but it is an awesome thing to SAY to her if she insists on calling this a "business arrangement" ... "OK, I'll have my attorney draw up an arrangement".....

Usually we go to her folks after church and eat. I hope that is what we do this year. And yes, we will be attending a different church.

I have told her that, this morning was a big change. Just have some tough times to work through.

herb,

Finally, we have a common denominator where we can communicate effectively.

You see ... the quote above of yours, explains my username ... MyRevelation ... came from the "light bulb" moment where I realized that I had turned into something that was not me.

I had a Revelation about how I used to be this larger than life personality that my W admired and was proud of ... then I had to look in the mirror that saw this needy/clingy wienie ... which was not ME at all.

It almost hit me like a ton of bricks, and as soon as I realized it, I instantly reclaimed my prior confidence, and my W (FogFree) recognized it immediately and RESPONDED positively.

Now, from your discriptions, your M was much worse than ours pre-A, so I don't know how yours will R ... if it will at all, but the fact remains that you've had your own "revelation" and can take back your status as whatever it was that attracted your WW to you originally.

If you are successful, there is also a side-benefit, should you choose to play it ... whereby there will be a shift in power at the herb household, and you can use the language that you learn here to discuss things with your WW so she can see your perspective, like you have been enlightened to her perspective, and your marital relationship should IMPROVE greatly as you both reach for the status of equal partners.

Now admittedly, the above paragraph is a little criptic so as not to offend some of the more easily offended posters, but hopefully you get my drift ... if not, feel free to email me at the address in my signature and I can explain it in more detail.

You took a couple of good hits from me, but I'm truly happy that for whatever reason, you have taken back some measure of control over your own happiness going forward ... FEELS GOOD DOESN'T IT???

I feel like I am in control of myself and my destiny finally. She feels now that I am trying to be a tyrant, but I have learned enough on here to ignore anything from her for a while, just give and give. That does feel good, but I have to admit that seeing her crushed and an emotional shambles hurts me to the core, even though I know what caused it. I can't help it.

Just some advice from a guy whose BTDT ... let her CRASH!!!

I know you want to protect the one you love ... but DON'T EVER FORGET what got her to this place ... you may love her, but she has DISRESPECTED you in the worst possible way.

Just DETACH from it as much as possible and REMEMBER that every time you see her "crushed and an emotional shambles" ... your status IMPROVES. This actually gets back to "side-benefits" part that "may" come later, if you all successfully R ... like I said ... there will be a change in the balance of power at the herb-household ... let it happen!!!

I get your drift.

While she is in withdrawal, meeting her EN's do not help.

Learn how to do this by not LBing. Get to be a cool hand no matter what she says. She is pissed for a number of reasons. Try not add to them. She is looking for excuses to reasonably dump you.

Don't look to respond to argument, LB's are 10x worse than meeting needs.

This is all in the articles.

I know I am setting myself up as a wimp by asking this, but what about where I sleep at least tonight. When talking this morning, my insisting that I sleep in our bed visibly gave her the shakes, she is a wreck. I don't think she has slept much in days, can't eat. How much should I push it, or is this a concession I can make for now? I am torn, her physical being is not good right now.

Sleep in your bed. Tell her she can sleep there too if she wants. On top of the blanket if she wants.

I agree with Pepperband. Reclaim your bed. She is welcome to join you if she chooses. Now is the time to show your strength.

Wow,I just got a call from the wife. Back late last year, I let it out that I had been monitoring the cell phone records online, she changed the password. I never insisted I know, I had my own plan to fix things remember . When we talked last night, I told her that I wanted her home, with no secret cell phone bills, no passworded computers, etc.

She went online and couldn't figure out what the password was (she is pretty mentally shot), so she had them remove online access for our account and all bills and records will be sent to the house. She did that without me asking again. Called and told me, I told her thanks.

I think this is the first thing I have seen that really gives me some hope.

Herb - you sleep in your bed - she makes other arrangements if she desn't want to sleep with you. My wife only lasted 2 nights in my office before she came back to our bed.

But withdrawal will most probably be nasty with a lot of what you see as progress only to end up back seemingly at square one. She will be withdrawn frm you and will shun you touching her in any way. She may or may not be remorseful at this stage. She may break NC and call OM. This could last for a couple of months.

One day then a switch flicks in her and you will see some good forward progress. Be patient with her and be supportive.

and Herb if you see every little thing as "giving you some hope" you will be an emotiuonal wreck soon.

You have to learn not to get your validation from her. Know who you are in Christ. Be happy.

How about calling them up and getting it back online and you have the only password? You need to be able to watch her like a hawk.

Man, it is easy so easy to forget that this takes weeks when every day seems like a month.

It seems like every devotional, every Sunday school lesson, every book I read is telling me the same thing. It is sinking in.

It's a rollercoaster Herb. A marathon not a sprint. You will wear yourself out thinking you are at one spot when you suddenly find yourself back at square one again. The overall momentum should be positive however. I do not want to discourage you - I only want you to be sober in your judgements and KNOW there will be frustrating setbacks regularly.

Here is a post by Snowbelle which described withdrawal perfectly...

In my situation, things rapidly improved after 6 weeks but it was 6 months before I knew my wife really got it. It's a process.

It is a slow arduous process. My W's withdrawal lasted about 3 weeks but she was on the fast track. Took a lot longer for the fog to lift, however. Like bigkahuna, it took my W about 6 months.

When my W first moved back home, she wanted to sleep in the loft but I convinced her to stay in our bed. It helped that I hid the remote for that TV and offered up the television in the master bedroom...

She is perfectly welcome to come to your bed, but you have no reason to leave your bed. That is up to her if she doesn't want to sleep there.

If she doesn't want to sleep with you, be a gentleman and make up the couch or put a sleeping bag out in the garage for her.

But under no circumstances should you EVER LEAVE the marital bed again. A leader does not leave his post.

I agree. When I read that she did this, it made me suspicious . She couldn't remember the password? I agree you should get it back online and monitor.

The one thing I have found from the ones of you that have stuck with me for the last few days is truth. Truth from a friend (and that is what I feel, anyone that cares like you folks do is a friend) is never discouraging.

Well, I have not posted today, mostly because i knew I'd get a tongue lashing. I told my wife I would let her get some rest last night and did not push the sleeping arrangements. She did sleep last night. I will be where I belong tonight.

Pretty uneventful day for me. Wife had a migraine, but no unpleasantness. Fairly good night, watched TV for a while. She stayed downstairs a good while before going upstairs. Over the last few years, she has retreated to her (should have been our) room as a refuge. Like I said, I let things get pretty unfulfilling around here. But she has been spending more time down with the rest of us, even before I exposed.

Well, I hope I can get some sleep, I will be nervous as a cat. Maybe not. The old Herb had it in his mind that he didn't belong there, the new Herb knows what abandoning his marriage by avoidance will do.

Still no luck with delivery to OMW. I have made at least 15 trips , but they are not home.

Herb - why did you abandon your bed in the first place? 'm sure you have mentioned it before but I can't remember.

Mostly because I had gotten overweight, made snoring much worse, made wife have less desire for relations. Instead of doing what it took to fix the problem, I just took the couch to get some sleep. Slowly but surely led to isolation. I get a lot of blame for it, i have to admit.

The shock of finally realizing I may have lost my marriage really made me see things. I focused on the weight first and really did good (depression didn't hurt either), have lost 45 lbs. Still want to lose more. Started working with th weights as well, so I feel like I have lost even more.

Other than some short lived periods, it has been probably the last ten years. I am very thankful to God for giving me a chance to live my life as I should have. I don't deserve it.

What are you doing about your snoring? That is an annoying habit that needs to be dealt with. What is your plan to deal with it? (I was a terrible snorer as well and know what you have to do about it LOL)

I a serious snorer when I get tired.

Is there not a pillow that stops apnea?

I hope this silence does not mean you have caved on some other issue, HERB!!!???

HERB??? silence is not golden in your case, Mister!! Come back here and give us an update! If you have moved out or something to "give her space," then Lord help you when I find you!!

I swear, you men are wearing me down!

That is correct - there is not a pillow that stops apnea.

Herb, I've been reading your thread with interest, and am rooting for you, albeit quietly... I don't usually comment unless I have something to offer.

That said, there are other things that you can do- to improve your sleep and your snoring... a win/win. Ask your doctor.

(I work in a sleep disorders lab; you wouldn't believe the difference treatment can make.)

All the best, Nicki

I totally agree - if he has sleep apnea it needs to be treated and it can be treated. Untreated it is life threatening.

Hey, just been busy, kids are in, yard work, etc.

About the snoring, I don't think it is sleep apnea. At least when I am at a more healthy weight like now. My wife is a nurse by trade, she has never said anything to that effect. But I have a brother that has become very obese and he uses the breathing mask, I forget what it is called. My father is a heavy snorer, but I think alcohol had a lot to do with that. I really don't know what the extent of the problem would be. I will use the strips and spray, but I believe they are limited. From what I have read, there are mouth pieces and other things, but the effectiveness is hit or miss.

As far as things here, not much change. I think she is still feeling the effects of the exposure, with all the kids being home. She feels on the defensive and alone, hasn't been much I can do about it. She feels under the microscope, but that is what she should feel for a while I think.

I have not left or anything. She has commented that I am not acting the same, but I think I have overdone it a little. It still has only been a little over a week. Just kind of riding this weekend out. A lot going on.

What I tell her is that my goal is not to stay married to her, it is to have a marriage. I want to figure out the things that made her fall for me and figure out the things that made her fall away from me. I think in some ways they may be the same thing. Being easygoing and accepting can morph into distant and indifferent if you don't watch it. But all in all, I am not discouraged.

We mostly have to learn to communicate in a better way. Besides loving her, I do really like her and learned to accept her, maybe I accepted to easily.

We will have Easter dinner at her folks tomorrow.

Never succeeded in contacting OMW. She should get my messages Monday. I hope she contacts me afterwords.

We went to an Easter play Friday night. Keeps things in perspective.

Thanks for the encouragement. I had a doctor's appointment yesterday, and was going to ask, but forgot.

Herb - You probably need a sleep study to determine if you have apnea. You should discuss your snoring with your doctor.

Hey, not much to report.

Easter went ok. The girls and I went to church with my mother at the church I grew up in. Everyone was tickled to see how much the girls have grown up. It meets earlier than normal. so we were back before 11. W had already gone to her parents. Had a nice meal. We had every yard game we owned out, so we played washers, cornhole, and hillbilly golf for a while (if you don't know, they all involve tossing something at a target, a variation of horseshoes). Wife and I were right by each other a lot. She seemed to have fun as the day went on.

Nothing great, nothing bad.

Last night after I posted, we ended up talking a lot. We are still very early in the process, and we had grown pretty distant, I can see. I really believe she is hesitant to believe she can trust her heart to me because I did not take care of it before. I stayed calm and just emphasized how I knew it was a pretty steep climb ahead, but it is worth it. There is real hurt in her voice, and I can't deny it was there before any of the things that got mt here happened,

I am trusting that it is still the withdrawal talking. I pray that there is a shred of attachment left when we can really start to repair all the past damages.

The OMW should get my emails tomorrow, unless they are blocked. I will ask her to respond to see if she got them. I sure hope she sees the need to do everything she can to get him out of town.

My D14 that has been involved so much in the youth group said today that she doesn't want to go there anymore, either.

Herb's Lessons Learned

i did not hear anything from OMW this morning. I hope she read them when she got to school. I sent another message asking for a reply.

I hope she doesn't have her head in the sand about this. She has more at stake than I do, honestly.

If I don't receive at least a reply, I will have to figure out a way to make sure she gets my stuff. I don't really know how that will come about, at the moment.

Made appointment for tomorrow to discuss snoring and sleep test.

Are there some pointers anyone can give me to help me keep from getting so down. Nothing has happened to make things any worse. I just go through periods where I get very down in the dumps. Now is one of them.

It has only been 10 days since I brought things to a head, so W and I are still in a holding pattern most of the time. Slowly the communication seems to be opening up, but probably more my wishful thinking.

Back in the days before I fully realized the score, she asked me to move out, it was the last part of August 08. Of course I did, not understanding anything. She told me about the relationship, and at the time I think it was in a period where they were trying to stop. She told me a lot at that time. But I basically fell apart, started clinging for all I was worth. Was pointed to some good resources, including the book "Love Must Be Tough" that got me to stop that. But I was in a state of ignorance/misunderstanding/denial until I came to this site and started to see clearly. So even though it has only been a few days since things had a chance to be different, I have been ****ed-up for a long time.

I would love to have a good feeling again.

Reminds me of the old Jerry Clower story when the guy was up a tree fighting with a lynx. He finally told his friend, "Just shoot up here amongst us, one of us has got to get some relief."

Herb's Lessons Learned

I am sorry, Herb. There is no way to make you feel good again this soon. It will come again, though, I promise.

I don't know how to feel better either. I get so sad daily. I have been working Plan A, but he doesn't even talk to me unless it's about our girls. He filed for divorce a month ago and is having an affair with a co-worker. I don't know how to get the pain to stop. My H says that they have something we've "never had". I get so afraid that the affair won't ever end. I got the book Surviving an Affair and have been reading it, but he is so NOT ready to end it with the OW. Good luck to you and take care of yourself.

Have you followed the advice on here and exposed it to everyone that matters. I never had a chance until I did.

Here is my story of before I came here and read and what I found out. Herb's Lessons Learned

needhelp, I just read your other thread and have to tell you that you are making a HUGE STRATEGIC mistake by not exposing your H and his Ho to their employer and to the licensing board. You are enabling their affair at your own expense.

There is absolutely NO LEGAL REASON why you can't expose that affair; that is ludicrous. The OW in your case is a psychiatrist and she could be in big trouble for her affair.

Your atty's only goal is to faciliatate an AMICABLE divorce and she doesn't give a rats [censored] about saving your marriage. Exposing it may very well save your marriage. Here is what Dr Harley, a CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST, has to say about it:

Dr. Harley: I'm in the process of rewriting "Surviving an Affair" to add information about plan B. Some of the main points are as follows:

Whether in plan A or B, the world should know about your husband's affair. All of your relatives, your friends, your children, and the licensing board for your husband's lover. In some states a licensing board will revoke a license if a counselor is having an affair with a married person, client or not. This is because it's well known that affairs hurt families, especially children. And counselors know better than to have an affair.

The reason for the wide exposure is not to hurt the unfaithful spouse, but rather to end the fantasy. Your husband's secret second life made his affair possible, and the more you can to to make it public, the easier it is for him to see the damage he's doing. Keeping it secret does damage, but few know about it. Making it public helps everyone, including the unfaithful spouse and lover, see the affair for what it really is."

<snip unrelated>

"When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery."

Wife called a couple of times this afternoon. I think some things are starting to become clear to her. Youngest daughter evidently sent her an email letting her know how hurt she was. Also, sometime she has told her that she would like to attend the youth activities at church, she really likes the youth pastor, but she does not want to go to church with OMP (I made up a new one, Other Man Pastor). Told wife that that was a consequence of what happened. But she is feeling the results of her fantasy now.

She did say that I did not do anything wrong by exposing it, she was wrong, she just doesn't think I should have brought the kids into it (of course). But they were all ready in it, obviously. I don't know how many times the last few months she accused me of trying to get the kids on my side, they kept saying she wasn't trying, now they know why.

I believe that the exposure to the kids was the flaming arrow to the heart of the affair. They do mean everything in the world to her. I tell her that there is a lot of hurt, but it can be healed.

But each time it seems as though a little more of the wall may be coming down. I just don't really know how thick it is. I hope my tools are sharp enough, or that I get to use them again.

One of the hardest things my wife had to come to terms with was the effect of her affair on our kids.

My youngest son and OM's youngest son were like blood brothers and we separated them permanently. There were HUGE consequences for our kids.

OM was our then next door neighbour.

This too will pass Herb.

Good for you- both the appointment and your diligence with followup w/ omw.

Very good Herb. This will help immeasurably in your recovery. You need to soberly examine your marriage and examine reasons why you drifted apart. YOu have to fix your part of the conditions that made your wife ripe for an affair.

Ah yes - I rememer wishful thinking. Patience Herb. It will take your wife maybe 6-8 weeks or longer to withdraw. Did you read my post about withdrawal above? It's the truth.

This is possibly the hardest it will be at the moment but it will pass. Your wife will start to come to terms with what she has done and it won't be pretty.

yes. The most valuable thing is the perspective one gets on here, the ability for you guys to look back from personal experience and from observing countless sad souls like me. It is impossible for me to see outside of where I am now without it.

If there is one thing I can say, over the last months I have looked at everything in my life and did not like what I saw. I am committed to being a better husband than I was, mentally, physically, and spiritually.

I need for her to see I care about things, our physical possessions, my responsibilities, and mostly her.


I have been doing that as well, I know I will get through. But I have to admit, I would like God to tell me that it will be like I want it. But, I know that I can't fathom his will, just look to follow it.

If you can link me to the sermon, I will listen. I will send you an email.

I really need this place, gives me an area that I can just get thoughts off my chest. I see that about 40% of the posts to my thread are from me. But that is less than half, could be worse. 100% of my posts are to this thread, except for 1 to another thread I started. I read a lot of the others, but all I could add is "Me, too."

I am running into the same wall as a lot of others I read. The "you are focusing on this, but you don't get that I begged and begged you for years and you just walked away, I don't know that I can get past that."

I do get it, I want to give more.

I think I am not confident that I can offer enough that she will want to try. This has made me very doubtful of what I have to offer. Not so much the affair, but what I see in looking back with different eyes.

It still amazes me I let it get to the point it did. I really wanted more, so did she.

All I have to hang on to is that there seems to be some real hurt over the past, and that may mean that deep down somewhere it still means something, or it wouldn't hurt.

Just searching for something to hold on to to keep from sinking.

Please, keep me from giving up.

Just got message from OMW, information received.

Now that part is up to her, but she knows what I know.

I would put a smiley up, but none of this makes me very happy.

I think that you are really on the right track with your insights:
I agree, she should feel under the microscope.
Your statement about being easy going and accepting morphing into distant and indifferent is in my mind huge and great that you have that insight so soon after the shock and horror of her affair.
I think that your statement about accepting her too easily may be very connected to the morphing statement.

Sleep study scheduled for next Wed. night.

Herb,

She's holding onto what a bad guy you were because that is how she justifies what she has done. That's what makes her entitled to have had an affair. If she gives up holding onto what a bad husband you were then she will have to face head-on what she has done. She will have to own it 100%. She's not there yet. Hopefully, she will get there but it will probably take a while and alot of soul searching on her part. Some IC would be really helpful in my opinion.

Don't buy into this line of thinking. It's all a bunch of crappola!! You may have been completely unplugged, disconnected, whatever but it doesn't justify her having an affair. You own 50% of the marital problems before the affair but she owns the other 50% and she own 100% of her choice to have an affair. Don't let her off on the hook on that one.

Mindshare

I doubt there has ever been a WS who has not said this!

Yes. Don't listen to all that except that it is the usual blah, blah, blah. I am just very impressed with your insights into how you will Plan A to be a better man.

I believe I am like many others on here that think what they are experiencing is unique, when sadly it is so pervasive that I suspect I could be handed a script of what is coming.

It is hard accept that I will become a much better man and love my wife more than ever (that Love Dare thing has had that effect on me)and still have no guarantees.

I was reading on another thread about the problem with living in the past or building the future in your mind (boy, have I done that, thinking every holiday, birthday, anniversary, surely this will be over by then)rather than taking it day by day. I have to really watch it to stay focused on fighting the good fight.

How is she, Herb? What was her reaction? Did she even know about the affair? '

I completely understand what you mean when you say none of this makes you happy. It is heartbreaking.

She did not respond other than to my request to let me know if she got it so I could quit trying to take it to her personally.

I really don't know how much she knew, I doubt very much. I did her a disservice by the way I handled things.

I filled in the blanks as best I could in my messages and let her know the seriousness of it the best I could, gave her my number to call.

Just an update. Nothing to update really. Wife had to work last night (yes, I am sure), didn't get home until almost 10. She came in, I fixed her something to eat, and she actually stayed downstairs for quite a while. It was actually killing me, I was so sleepy. I have gotten used to going to bed early, the sooner I could go to sleep, the sooner I could quit thinking about everything. Conversation was fine, no issues. D14 came down, we talked about American Idol some. She told me she thought I was jumping the gun on the sleep study. I can take that in many ways, so I will just not try to figure out what it means.

She asked me not to push, but not in a especially negative way. It is easy to forget that she needs time to withdraw. Not quite 2 weeks so far. If we are halfway down that road yet, we will be lucky.

Herb, are you sleeping in your own bed in your bedroom? Where does she sleep?

Still sleeping in separate beds. She is in main bedroom.

I know, I know.

I realize I am going against the advice on here in this area. I forced the issue last week and it just doesn't seem the right thing to do yet. I am struggling in this area. We have discussed it a lot.

I am the one who abandoned it to start, I feel. Seems like a bullying tactic now to force it.

Says who?

It seems to me that you are the one being bullied.

Maybe so. I can't really see clearly from the inside sometimes.

You know, Herb, this is a huge strategic mistake that is going to delay your recovery. Sleeping apart is a major reason your marriage has come to this horrible place and more of the same will not help. Your marriage is in major transition right now and it is going to create MORE problems if you don't stop sleeping elsewhere. You might as well just move in there now while you are both in a state of upheaval rather than have to deal with ANOTHER upheaval in the near future.


It would be a bullying tactic for her to not allow you to sleep in your bed. It is not bullying to go sleep in your bed.

Please listen to the advice Melody is offering. Face the conflict now and begin creating the marriage you and your wife want.

Honestly, this is going to be harder than exposing.

We need to help you say this in a good way to your wife to help her adjust. Hopefully others will pipe in and give their thoughts, but here is how I might frame it.

"Dear, I am committed to doing what it takes to build a happy marriage for us both. I do not want the marriage of the past where we lived separate lives. Part of the problem was that we slept apart and I know now that was a huge mistake that only drove a deeper wedge between us. It was a mistake for me to ever move out of OUR bedroom and I am committed to rectifying that mistake going forward."

WW: i will not sleep in there if you move in there!!!

Herb: I cannot stop you from sleeping elsewhere but I am committed to doing what it takes to rebuild our marriage.

Herb, there are no words to force her to like this, but your choice of words should strive to minimize the fallout.

It is not reasonable for you to sleep apart as a married couple if you intend on recovering your marriage. If she wants to continue that STATUS QUO, then she should sleep on the couch. She should experience DISCOMFORT as a result of that choice.

Discomfort = motivation to change

She has been pretty depressed, this started before the A and even before the Pre-A counseling started. My reaction (or non-reaction) to it really led to the complete disconnect between us about 2 years or so ago. It is still going on, so she really does not sleep well a lot of the times. She has said several times to me that she could settle for what her life had become, she is still in the "I have no hope for happiness" stage, at least partially.

How about something like this?

"I know our marriage became something that was not fulfilling for you and me. A big reason is that I took the easy way out and did not address the things that were causing us to drift into separate existences. A big contributor to that was how I abandoned our bed instead of addressing the issues that made sleeping together unpleasant. I now see what a huge mistake that was, how it drove us further apart than we were already becoming.

I am not holding on to our marriage to repeat the mistakes of the past. I am committed to making it what it should have been all along. I am not willing to settle for what we had, because it obviously was not good for either of us. Sleeping apart is a very real part of the things that lead us to where we were. Sleeping together is a very real part of us getting to where we should be."

Should I add anything about making a real dent in the weight issue, and that is continuing. I am at the lowest I have been since we married, within 15 lbs or so of that weight. I feel like I am even closer than that because I have increased my muscle mass some as well. I actually lost about 40 lbs while we dated.

I can see how she is skeptical about my motives now. I have shown in the past that the changes were not permanent. She tells me at times that I shouldn't be making these changes for her. I tell her that I am making them because it is the right thing to do, it was wrong to neglect them before, but I do hope they make a difference in how she sees me.

I want to ask something for clarification.

I have seen what seems to me to be contradictory lines of thinking, in this thread and others, for BS in the withdrawal stage of their post A marriage.

1. Don't try to meet EN now, it won't be accepted. Avoid the big LBs.

2. Now is the time to figure out EN and try to meet as many as possible.

I can see the logic in both positions.

Am I confusing 2 things?

Herb, she won't let you meet many needs while in withdrawal, but it is a good idea to still TRY.

Well, that makes sense. But I guess I was wondering about trying to really determine what they are, other than by my intuition.

I don't think she realizes how much I cherish her.

Move back to your bed.

Herb - what Mel said - TRY and meet her needs - but don't expect anything in return.

Yes that is what I have been trying, at least in my eyes. But I either get nothing in return or even negatives. The experience on here has prepared me for that though. Like tonight, we were watching TV after she came home. I asked her something about her work, She said, "I just got home, I don't want to talk about work. I don't ask you about making widgets all day. Is that all you can talk to me about." I just looked at her blankly and said nothing else.

In another book I read, that I thought was very good, it is called speaking the others love language. But it doesn't seem that I ever figured it out before. I always have done more than my share of things around the house. She usually works later than I do, so I have usually cooked and cleaned up. But I felt unappreciated. I realize that is not high on her list now, doing things that have to be done anyway.

I just have to figure out what it is that will show her how much I love her.

Personal pride and responsibility, how I take care of my appearance, our possessions, our house and cars, always seemed to mean a lot to her. She really loves her father, and he is one that is always doing something, checking this and fixing that. I never was really taught that growing up. I keep the grass cut, but sometimes it might go a little too long. I trim , but not every week. I don't drive her car, so unless she reminds me to change to oil because it is overdue, I don't think of it. Things like that. I am really trying to change that, make lists. Dress nicer even if there is no reason. But these things honestly don't come naturally to me.

Feeling you have to work your way to acceptance is really discouraging. I believe that is why God doesn't do it that way, because He knows we will always come up short.

I do believe that the love I am showing will have to eventually start to stick if I can understand how to give it in the right way. I have been clueless most of my life. I just wonder if I always will be.

PS, thanks BigK for the heads up on the sermon, I found it and burned it to CD, I have listened to it 3 times today.

Awesome!!

But God!!!

What a great message.

I sent an email to OMW yesterday asking her to call me, explaining how we needed to make sure this was dead. Got a message from her to leave her alone.

Said OK, hope things work out for her.

OM probably threw enough lies at her that she is in denial.

Are you sleeping in your own bed now?

Will be tonight.

TJ/

I wanna hear the sermon... please Big K. My email is on my sig line.

/TJ

I found it on a site called podbean. Search for Phil Pringle. He has several semons on this site.

Big K also said it is on Itunes

Man, I missed this site will it was down. I really felt isolated and defeated yesterday, and then I was cut off from my main outlet.

This weekend could be interesting. I went to Walmart yesterday to pick up somethings, and while I was there, I picked up a small bouquet of flowers and put them in a vase and placed them by the sink in her bathroom. She did not get home until after 7, we ate and then I went to workout some. I returned about 9, she was in the bedroom watching TV (I am still having to fight myself to keep from calling it her bedroom). I took her a bottle of water up, and she asked why I bought the flowers, that she didn't want them, that D had asked her if he liked them. She sees things like that as me putting her on the spot. I shut the door and told her if D asking her that was a problem, then it was a problem she had. I was going to continue to do the things I needed to. Went into the things I wanted to say about how a big part of the distance between us was the fact that I had chosen to sleep in a different bed, and I was going to come back to sleep in our bed on Friday (I let her have one more night, since she had to work early, I still can't get the hang of this completely yet). I hoped she would sleep with me. She said she wouldn't, I said there were 2 other beds and a couch.

Wife: "So you are going to force yourself on me."
Me: "I am sleeping in our bed"
Wife: "You better be ready for the consequences"
Me: "I'm ready"

I had mentioned a couple of days ago maybe she and I could go out to eat on Friday. She said "I was considering going to eat, but not now."

I left the room then. Came back a little later and told her that there were parts of the old me that were dead and parts that were damaged. I was not the same anymore. That some of the parts needed to die, because she had been able to just throw me away. But one part that was damaged that I didn't like was trust, trust in our marriage and trust in our love. That I was in it for the long haul if she was, we started out in a good place and I knew we could end up in a better place. But that we could also end up right where we were, and that was not acceptable, I would not settle for things being like that.

She did not say a lot during this, It seemed she was listening.

I guess we will see tonight.

Hi Herb . . . I am following your struggle. I hope things go well for you this weekend. She may surprise you and "turn the corner". You know what the bible says about pride! You sound like a real nice person. I'm sure she will see that again soon!

Thanks for the encouragement. It has only been two weeks last night since the exposure occurred, so turning the corner may be too much to hope for. BigKahuna said it the most clearly to me

Will be heading home soon, don't know what to expect. Haven't talked to her all day, other than when I was leaving this morning, I asked her if she wanted me to make her a smoothie. In the days before exposure, I did that quite often. She quickly said no.

Has it really only been 2 weeks?

Make one, put it in the fridge, then tell WW you made one. WW can't get the chance to say no.

Good idea. I will do that Monday.

I guess that is assuming we make it through the weekend.

I love how you handled this, Herb. You handled this with grace and sensitivity, like a LEADER in his marriage. I am so very proud of you.

I have no doubt you will have the courage to move back into your bed as a leader in your marriage tonight. She was TESTING your resolve when she threatened consequences, and you passed the test. You did not cave. You are now following YOUR PLAN, rather than the plan of a very lost, wayward wife.

I won't be on very much the next few days. I had some surgery on Thursday and am up for the first time today, but will check in from time to time.

Mel,
Sorry to hear about your health - hope you recover soon!

mmmherb,
I read the last couple of your posts and I couldn't help but remember scenes from the movie "Fireproof" where the wife rebuffs all the H's attempts to meet her needs. I think you're doing great - I hope it works out for you.

GG

I'll probably get locked out of the bedroom tonight. I'll have to take care of it tomorrow.

Well, if my 17-year old knows how to pick a bedroom door lock - I'm sure you do to!

Or, you can also come up with a better plan in preparation for being locked out tomorrow too!

GG

Although I am somewhat reluctant to appear a paranoid freak (whether or not I am is irrelevant to your sitch..lol!), her choice of words sound a bit threatening to me.

Mmmherb, you do not seem the sort to let things escalate rapidly, so I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir.

I've been reading your thread, and with her oft repeated desire to have you leave your home, and the swirls of fog that seem to escape in little puffs from her ears on occasion, please, just be careful. Don't let her turn this into you *forcing* your way into the room and *forcing yourself on her*.

I'm sure, had I not witnessed horrible and treacherous actions perpetuated on many BH's around here by determined and conniving WW's, this wouldn't even cross my mind. But there are more than one situations like this (on this board) in the past. The WW calls the police and then further increases the betrayal by getting an order of protection, causing temporary denial of access of the home and children to the BH. This is then used in the D to the extreme detriment of the BH.

I'm not saying she would ever do this, but I would hate to see more damage to your obviously gentle and giving heart.

Best of luck to you in the recovery of your marriage.

Screw it

mmmherb,
Don't give up - be the leader in your marriage. Do you honestly think your wife would go that far? Only you can answer that question if she is conniving. The consequence she spoke of may be locking the door. Have a better plan tomorrow

GG

Are you okay, mmmherb?

I sure hope I did not upset you.

Grab a few books and be the first one in the bed ....

Smell good, look good in a white T-shirt and PJ bottoms and sit there reading, if you have reading glasses even better ...
when she comes in, look up from the book and say ' Wife, I'm so glad you decided to join me'

Here's the plan for tomorrow (Vittoria's post).

GG

Yes, beating her into the bedroom seems the best way to go!

I applaud you for how far you've come already. You sound like a different person than when you first came here, and I'm sure that's why your wife doesn't recognize you. That's a very good thing.

I also applaud you for recognizing your own flaws in the marriage and how you are willing to change them. I can't tell you how frustrating it is to see some of the BS's here that believe their WS has to do ALL the work to make the M work. By recognizing this so early, you are making a strong foundation for your plan. Don't worry, your wife will look back and see all the hard work eventually.

I'm sure right now she's afraid to believe that you're for real and you're really going to follow this through. Just like a WS has to prove to the BS through their actions, the BS has to prove through their actions that they're willing to do their part to make an amazing M that beats the heck out of the previous one.

Stay strong. It's a hard journey, but it does get better.

What happened, Herb?

I know I will probably get strung up by my ears for saying this, but it doesn't make you any less of a man for not sleeping in the bedroom. It makes you understanding. I mean that's just MO, but I've been watching your thread from afar. I think you have made a lot of progress. And I think you are a good man that can get through this. No matter what happens you have to make sure that you stay true to yourself. If you want to be comfortable sleeping in the same bed with her, give her a little time. Make sure you are comfortable sitting on the couch together. Spend some time together watching movies that you both love. If you get home first, make her a romantic dinner with candles and soft music. Even leave love notes on the bed for when she goes to bed, telling her how much you miss being there with her. Telling her how much you love her. That will give her a chance to realize how much you care for her and how much you are willing to woo her. But take it slow, you will learn for yourself how much you really want to be with her.... or not. You will find out how you feel at the same time as she does. Because you have to consider yourself and how you will be affected by trying to push things. Do what is best for you, physically, mentally, emotionally and if that is taking a break, then you have to do it. Because you can't do any good if you are sick and stressed and so worn out that you can't think straight. Just stay strong and stay true to yourself.

How are you, Herb? If it didn't happen last night, there are other nights, friend. Just hang in there and keep up your resolve. Rome was not built in a day.

ML had surgery and the MB forums went down on the same day. Coincidence? I think not.

I don't know how much I have left in me.

Herb,
Please remember that Plan A is not implemented to get your wife to return to you in quick time. Plan A is a way for you to become the best person that you can be. Just like dieting, you don't always get immediate results, but it is a lifestyle change and over time, there are results--an improved Herb.

You are doing Plan A for you. When you feel you have little love in reserve for her and you can no longer implement Plan A, you go to Plan B. You have figured out a lot about your marriage in very short time. But it takes time to make changes and get results. Hang in there Herb.

Herb, do what is best for you in the long run. Give yourself some time to think about in the future. Talk to her about what she wants for the future. Make some goals for yourself, ant tell her to do the same, then make a list together for your marriage. You must believe in yourself and prove to yourself and to her that you are strong enough to handle anything. Be true to yourself and you can handle this. You have the strength in you, no matter how deep you have to dig.

This is from your very first post, 6 wks and one day ago. I've read bits and pieces, here and there of your thread, and you have made progress to where you are now.

It does take... time.

Focus on not taking what your wife says, to heart, the negatives anyway.
I know this is hard, but it can bring you down and crush your spirit.
It is possible for her to fall in love with you again, it really is.
And ... look at yourself, the better you, in just 6 weeks!

Anyway, I just stopped by to take a look at how your night went. There are so many more ahead of you if last night didn't work out like you had hoped.

If Mel isn't around right now, the rest of us will have to keep an eye on you. You do seem like a sweetheart of a guy.

I'm sure Mel has just lost her computer remote!
PS hope your recovery goes well ML.

Herb, don't let it get you down, please. This is not going to be easy. Just stand your ground and don't allow yourself to despair. Remember the guy in Fireproof? He got so discouraged, but things eventually turned around. You have already won this battle, Herb, so don't give up now!

You guys are about the only friends I have right now.

Just popping in to let anyone that cares know I am still alive.

Been a pretty crappy weekend.

It seems she sees two futures: a good divorce or a bad divorce.

I hope things hold on long enough for her viewpoint to change.

Was this said as a threat to keep you out of your bedroom? A WS will be very manipulative and play the D card when she is not allowed to bully you.

Even so, her vision of the future is not one you want to pay attention to. Her vision does not count because it is coming from a falling down drunk and will change from day to day as her moods ebb and flow.

Just tell her that you are sure sorry she wants a divorce, but that future does not interest you. You won't be cooperating in any divorce schemes. Let her know if she files for divorce, she will be up for the fight of her life that will include calling in the pastor to testify under oath about his adultery.

Don't let her fogbabble get you down. Remember, you are the leader here, not here.

I wrote the following on MB a *long time ago*.

YOU are IN PLAN A ---- BE PROUD of all your efforts - no matter HOW unappreciated those efforts may be.

You are proving to yourself FIRST that YOU are a man - a husband - worthy of respect and admiration.

You are the "Welcome Home" sign if your wife has the ability to change herself. You are NOT a door mat for her to wipe her feet upon.

If your wife fails to see how wonderful you are - it is her malfunction, not yours.

I like it. :)Good post Pepper,

mmmherb,
I always think this to myself - if my M came to D at least I know I had done everything in my power to make the M work. I would be a peace walking away from my M because I would have earned that right. Whatever the outcome for you - you can be proud that you are putting in your best efforts and have the guidance of some good people(friends) to get you through.

GG

No, not really. Just her vision of the future.

Thanks for all the encouragement. Thanks for taking the time to share all you experiences Pepperband. This has changed me, I can see now what I can be. But, to be honest, life outside this relationship saddens me so that becoming a better me seems like a consolation prize.

I am really tired of playing the bedroom game. Told her today it was not some kind of power play, I just wanted so much to be in there.

"I am really tired of playing the bedroom game. Told her today it was not some kind of power play, I just wanted so much to be in there."

Then stop playing around with the bed room game. Stop talking about it. Do it.

I don't want to get into this type of childishness.

Lock the door
Take the locks off
Barricade the door
Knock the door down
Call the cops

Just stupid.

"I am really tired of playing the bedroom game. Told her today it was not some kind of power play, I just wanted so much to be in there."

Then stop playing around with the bed room game. Stop talking about it. Do it.

Also stop listening to her propaganda. It is only spouted to control you.

Why are you afraid of WW?

What is WW going to do to you that she has not done yet?

WW is going to divorce as things stand.

WW is banging the OM.

Your ship is taking on water and you let your WW stop you from saving the ship.

Why?

Hmm... I'd just take the door off of its hinges

You don't have to turn into The Hulk and knock the door down. I like MiM's idea to take the door off the hinges. You have every reason to want to be back in your own bed. If she doesn't want you in there with her, she can get the couch or the guest room.

Herb - Knock it off!

Her perspective NOW is totally different to her perspective in 3 months time. I promise you this is the case.

As long as she is not in contact with OM your situation will improve.

Bad for marriage?

Although many couples say separate rooms have been a blessing (Barr says her friends are jealous of her sleeping arrangement), Minnesota clinical psychologist and marriage counselor William F. Harley Jr. warns sleeping separately could spell trouble.

"Whenever I see a couple wanting private time -- they want to be alone, they want their own friends, they don't want to feel like they're joined at the hip -- my immediate question is, 'What is it about being together that bothers you?'" says Harley, author of "Love Busters: Overcoming the Habits that Destroy Romantic Love." "My feeling is that sleeping together is a very, very important part of being integrated with each other."

Jason Holloway, 29, an estimator from Greenwood, Indiana, who slept on the couch for about six months while his wife, Rebecca, was pregnant, agrees that separate beds have a downside.

"I had the TV, I had the dogs with me," he says. "But I didn't feel 100 percent like I was part of the loop. I felt removed from the whole situation." Dr. Harley quoted on CNN

mmmherb,
****edit**** it's your bed as much as hers. I like the remove the hinges idea!!

GG

Watch the movie that "The quiet man" with John Wayne and Maureen O'Hara. He knew how to deal with a locked bedroom door.

I love that movie and that scene is a classic - it's one of my favorite.

GG

Edited? - Didn't know that word was considered profanity!

It is when used in that manner

Don't really expect anything notable to happen for a while. Not yet 20 days in. Maybe things will start to change sometime in the future.

Yesterday (Sunday) was about par. I didn't go to church. I was up and she came downstairs. D14 was not home, she went to church with a friend and stayed the afternoon with her. Did not talk much, it was raining outside all day. After a while she went back upstairs, making a comment about not having anything to talk about. She stayed there the rest of the afternoon. I went up a few times. Talked a little. Not too deep, not too contentious.

The thing I try to impress on her is that I realize that in the past that I looked at things differently, wrongly. I said to myself, "I shouldn't have to do this or that for her to love me." But now I see that I should have been saying "If I do this or that, I can really show her how much I love her."

That is the biggest difference in me. Once I started giving, or wanting to give, I felt things inside of me that I had buried, good things that made me just want to do more.

My biggest realization, however, is the thing that worries me the most. By withdrawing into my world of protection because I thought I was being unappreciated, sleeping on the couch and feeling mistreated, I made her feel that I cared nothing about being with her, in every way. Looking back, I don't see how she could have felt differently. She told me this in ways, and with words, but I could not see outside my comfort shell, until it was shattered last fall. So now the thing I most want to do, to hold her, to love her in every way so that she knows how much it means to me, the thing that I failed at so miserably, that really hurt her, is the thing that I am most unable to do.

I told her that, but didn't spend a lot of time talking. I went to pick up D late in the afternoon, while I was gone, W came downstairs. D watched TV in her room most of the rest of the night. W and I watched TV together,W was also playing Bingo, Yahtzee, whatever on her computer. She does that all the time, it started a while ago, part of the depression and isolation that contributed to where we are now.

I did good, even watched a Lifetime movie that I have yet to figure out the point it was trying to make, a lot of drama, tragedy, but no point that I could determine. Watched The Apprentice, she likes that, I can tolerate it, starting to enjoy it some. But she did stay downstairs until it was over. Told her I was glad she came down, she said don't read anything in to it.

In a nutshell, this is the state of the nation:

She is angry still that I told the kids and her family.
She says she thinks I am out to teach her a lesson.
She sees no future.

I am hanging in.

Like I said before,less than 20 days in. This is more of a status report than anything. I don't expect much else.

I don't see that there will be a lot of reasons to post a lot for a while. I always check to see what words of wisdom or words of jerkism I can get. Will probably just say hey everyday, if nothing else to bump the thread.

Thanks for all the time and help. It is amazing how much the people on here care about complete strangers.

Hang in there herb. Like you said, it's only been 20 days. I have tried to call some people my husband works with, but no one has called me back. They have talked to him first to find out what I'm calling about. It seems like a sick place to work - people supporting the affair between 2 employees. I am trying to work plan A - my H was over this weekend to pick up some more of his things, started to talk about visitation with kids, I just sat there and told him what he was wanting (3 nights a week) just didn't work for me. He got mad, said lawyers and a judge would decide then. I told him "if that's how these things are figured out, I guess that'll be what happens". He was standing up, getting agitated, but I just (tried) to keep a calm voice and was knitting (I don't even really do that,just learned) while he was talking. It was actually kind of fun. When he left, our oldest D said, "he was mad", I just agreed with her. She texted him, and he came back to say bye to her and our youngest. Like I said, it was almost fun.

That is what I am waiting for. I think I have a good perspective on that, based on all the good advice here.

Herb, please tell me she did not go to the OM's church? Has she been in contact with the OM?



Awesome realization! I am very glad you were able to express this to her. Even though she may not hear you today, your words will come back to her when she is not so foggy.



Do you enjoy chick shows? Because my H does not. Doing things you don't like, Herb, is sacrifice, and sacrifice leads to RESENTMENT. The goal in marital recovery is to find recreations that you BOTH ENJOY. Its good that you are with her, but please exercise caution in doing things you don't like, because it WILL NOT help your marriage, I promise you. It will add to your resentment.

Check out this article: The Giver and the Taker


This is just a sign of withdrawal. AS long as contact HAS ENDED, that is. If she is seeing the OM at church, then she is not in withdrawal, she is still in her affair.

Did she go to the OM's church?

No, I don't like them, but I didn't have anything else to do. Felt like being in the same vicinity was important. No big deal.

No. As far as I can determine, NC is still going on.

Herb,

Do you have Yahtzee or other board games at home that you can pull out and ask WW if she wants to play with you instead of by herself on the computer? Can you suggest taking a walk together? You don't need to talk - just be there together.

Try not to talk about your relationship all time. Is there anything she's interested in that she wanted you to do with her at one point? Can you explore that and see if it's something the two of you can share NOW? For example: my FWH always wanted me to play one of his computer game with him, but it never appealed to me. During Plan A, I stopped wasting my time watching TV and played that game with him like he always wanted. I love it! We still play just about every night.

Don't listen to her babble. We've all heard these things. She doesn't believe it can work. It's too late. How can YOU possibly make her happy? Divorce is the only way. The kids will be fine with divorce. blah, blah, blah... It's all babble and doesn't mean ANYTHING. This will pass. You can have an amazing marriage that doesn't even compare to the old one. You've finally joined the fight of your life - don't give up!

No, she went to a different one. I talked to her today about her and I going together next week.

One thing that complicates things is that the old church (with OM) broadcasts services locally on cable, so I kind of want to be at home during that time, but I also need to be in church with D14.

Right now, she doesn't want to do anything at all with me. Every suggestion gets basically the same response, "When are you going to face reality?"

But this is not anything I don't expect.

Herb, have you exposed this affair to a higher authority than the church board? This is a fox in the henhouse who is an unfit pastor. He should be removed from his position according to biblical principle.

Can you take this further up the line to get him removed?

This is a great time to discuss REALITY with her. What is her vision of reality and what does she want? This would be a great opportunity to discuss that you would be willing to work on your marriage together, but you will not cooperate in any potential divorce proceedings.

For example, if she does file for divorce, she needs to understand that you will not move out, will not cooperate, will file for full custody and will countersue on the grounds of adultery. You will not pay her a cent to get an apartment unless court ordered to do so. You will have the OM hauled into court to give sworn testimony about their adutlerous affair on the stand.

Have this discussion, Herb. She needs to know what reality will bring. She needs to know you will NOT COOPERATE and you will not go down without a HUGE FIGHT that will not be pretty. If you have a reality check with her, she will start looking to your marriage instead of fantasizing about easily moving you out.

We are baptist, each church is autonomous. There is a local association, I will see what I can do

We are a no fault state, I don't know what leverage I will have, other than not moving out.

Melody is spot on. You need to give her exactly what she doesn't want. Get back in your bedroom now!

PLEASE DO, Herb. I betcha this is not the first marriage he has attacked and if he is not stopped, it won't be the last. Can you imagine how emboldened he will be if he GETS AWAY WITH THIS? If he can lie his way out of this and manage to retain his position, he will know he can do it again. You would be doing other families a favor by campaigning to get this unfit pastor removed so some other man doesn't have to endure what you have endured.

Herb, just tell her that you will bring in her adultery into any divorce action and make sure it gets on record. The point here is to scare the hell out of her and make sure she knows you won't go down easy. She needs to know you will fight with all you have and if anyone will be moving it will be HER.

Are you in an alienation of affection state? What state are you in?

KY

There is really no authority outside the local church. I just met with a respected retired pastor that filled in at out church before OM came. He is very well thought of by all the deacons that know. I filled him in. He said he would talk to the deacons I am aware of what is happening and one other that I don't know what he knows.

I think the people that should be doing something about it having the light shined on them may have an effect as well.

Grounds for Filing: The Petition for Dissolution of Marriage must declare the appropriate Kentucky grounds upon which the dissolution of marriage is being sought. The appropriate lawful ground will be that which the parties agree upon and can substantiate, or that which the filing spouse desires to prove to the court. The dissolution of marriage grounds are as follows:

Irretrievable breakdown.

(1) If both of the parties by petition or otherwise have stated under oath or affirmation that the marriage is irretrievably broken, or one of the parties has so stated and the other has not denied it, the court, after hearing, shall make a finding whether the marriage is irretrievably broken. No decree shall be entered until the parties have lived apart for 60 days. Living apart shall include living under the same roof without sexual cohabitation. The court may order a conciliation conference as a part of the hearing. (Kentucky Statutes - Title 35 - Chapters: 403.140)

Counseling or Mediation Requirements: If one of the parties has denied under oath or affirmation that the marriage is irretrievably broken, the court shall consider all relevant factors, including the circumstances that gave rise to filing the petition and the prospect of reconciliation, and shall: (a) Make a finding whether the marriage is irretrievably broken; or (b) Continue the matter for further hearing not fewer than 30 nor more than 60 days later, or as soon thereafter as the matter may be reached on the court's calendar, and may suggest to the parties that they seek counseling.

The court, at the request of either party shall, or on its own motion may, order a conciliation conference. At the adjourned hearing the court shall make a finding whether the marriage is irretrievably broken. (Kentucky Statutes - Title 35 - Chapters: 403.170)

Another deacon knows now, and he is a person that is very straightforward, I don't think he will mince words or back away.

I am really trying to increase he exposure pressure on him without destroying the church. It has had many troubles in the last few years, but there are a lot of really good people there. I have exposed to all the people on my side. I just need him out of the picture as completely as possible.

Thanks everybody for the whacks to make me not wait around for things to happen.

Herb, the PASTOR is destroying the church, exposure will save it. He is a FOX in the hen house. Your pastor is a sexual predator who stalks married females in his congregation. He needs to be REMOVED. And the way to remove him is to EXPOSE him. I have this horrible feeling that you just told one deacon and he didnt want to make waves so he allwed this UNFIT PASTOR to spin him with lies. Has this been swept under the carpet? Is this a matter of one deacon sweeping this under the rug or is this an apostate Baptist church?

Herb, did you bring a pea shooter to a gun fight? Is that why this unfit pastor is still leading this church? Has this all been swept under the carpet so he is free to sexually exploit other female parishioners?

Ephesians 5:11
Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

Have you contacted your local affiliate of the news media's investigative reporting? They love to sleuth into this kind of situation and expose it - he would be run out of town and off the air instantly!

Forgive me, but I am not ready to hand out flyers, put it in the church bulletin, or take out an ad in the paper. I would like to give the men a chance to do the job the should do. They will start seeing that I am not going away.

We had the "reality about divorce and what will happen" talk last night. I hit her with both barrels. She started out full of fight, ended up sobbing, "how can I believe you care if you threaten to smear me all over town." She is pretty much at bottom now. A lot of the same stuff, it is hopeless, you can't hurt me any more than you already have, same old stuff. But she is really hurting.

All this really is hard on D14.

What she says is straight out of the handbook of what to expect, but it seems like it is turned up to 11.

I try to look underneath and see something that looks like a shred of hope, but it really doesn't seem to be there. The only thing that can be construed that way is the amount of hurt that is there may mean that it meant a lot to her at one time.

I did really botch things up for years.

I just keep praying that the withdrawal continues and someday she can see me differently, and that she sees that I am worth trying for.

You had an object lesson in respect in last nights discussion. She started out full of fight. And you broke her down to sobs. This is exactly what you should have done. Tell me you dealt with the bedroom issue. SHE IS AN ADULTERER. SHE DOES NOT GET TO SLEEP IN YOUR BED WITHOUT YOU. YOU ARE THE OFFENDED PARTY. Do you understand by allowing her to keep the marriage bed, you are putting yourself in a submissive roll. She needs to be cast out of your bed. And into the basement, or couch. That is until she comes to your bedroom door, meekly asking or begging to let her back into your bed. And not because its more comfortable. Because you are in it and she longs to be in your arm. YOU ARE INDULGING HER REBELLIOUS ATTITUDE. When if fact you should get up in her grill, and tell her to get her a$$ out of your bed until she wants to lie in it with you. You had a taste of respect last night. IF YOU WANT HER TO LOVE YOU. SHE MUST RESPECT YOU FIRST. SHE CANNOT LOVE YOU WITHOUT RESPECTING YOU. DO YOU WANT A DIVORCE? YOU DON'T SOUND LIKE YOU DO.

Regarding the pastor. You confront him and tell him that he will step down until God deals with him. If not while he is speaking, you stand up in church, point your finger at him and call him what he is an adulterer. It is more important to do what is right in Gods eyes than in mans.

This needs to be done in a loving way, but I find it hard to argue with this.


The bible prescribes specifically how to deal with sin between believers in Matthew 18:15-17. If this pastor's sin has been confirmed by witnesses, and if he is unrepentant after being lovingly confronted, and if the leadership of mmmherb's church will not fulfill their biblical duty to treat this pastor as an unbeliever, they and the pastor should be exposed for the frauds that they are.

Well, I just went to OM home. I stood on the porch and told him he was leaving. Let him know I was not stopping. It was fairly heated.
He knows where I stand.

Oh, I recorded it all as well, for my own protection.

And what did he have to say?

Concerning the bed

There does not seem to be a "loving" way to do this. But, things can't get any worse. She has to decide if we try or not, I can't do anything about it. really, other than do what is right.

You guys don't see it like this, but, in a real sense, I was an adulterer for years. I abandoned the bed to make it easy, I used pornography quite regularly. I honestly would not call myself a sex addict, but it was a real part of my life for years. I would stop, then start. And settled into that life. I have mentioned the way we dealt with the kids, she was the bad guy most of the time, I stayed comfortable, called my self supporting her when I was just jumping in after it was started. Abandoned the finances to her. We both make good money, I think she makes slightly more than I do now, but it has been fairly equal for a long time. I let her worry about things, not because I didn't care, just I knew she felt she needed that control and I figured she could handle it. I never stopped to see how much that worried her. Did things that needed to be done, but had to be reminded a lot.

I started selling things on ebay back in the early days, mid 90's. Made pretty good profit for a few years, because I was one of the few playing the game at that time. Cleared 20-30K in a 3-4 year span. But I didn't have a business plan, things were going good until the people that were supplying my product started selling themselves and the a lot of others started playing in the sandbox, the cash flow stopped. Of course, I had not planned for this possibility, so I ended up with over 10K in credit card debt. I ended up picking up an extra job, working tax seasons preparing taxes and made enough to pay it off in 3-4 yrs. But, that was another example of things that I just didn't take good care of.

That sums up my marriage pretty well, I did not take care of the things I should have like I should have.

I generally fixed dinner at night, I usually got home earlier and I like to do that. But it did not provide an EN that meant much to her, in retrospect. The one thing that she has opened up about to me in some ways is the way she views herself, always doing what other want, seeking approval, where I don't think she know what she is anymore. Sadly, the dysfunctional way I coped, by avoidance and withdrawal, was seen as rejection by her, that she did not in some way meet my approval. I can see that it would be hard to not see it that way. It hurt her badly, and she put up very thick walls to protect herself, so I couldn't hurt her again. Those walls are very real and still in place, and she is unwilling to expose herself again, to be vulnerable.

i really dug a deep hole, and I truly feel it is mostly on me. I was not unwarned.

In general, I have just gone along for the ride. Deluded myself into a comfort zone, and whistled while my marriage disintegrated. So, of course, she has quite a good reason to not believe me now, a real reason to be angry, a real reason that she could say that she does not want to continue.

I am a pretty good guy, I think I am kind of funny. I am easygoing. I have really opened up on here and the realizations I have come to about myself and shared on here are real. In some ways, I think I have come to be a sympathetic figure on here. There have been several comments basically saying we're rooting for you. But I have been a pretty poor excuse for a husband and a man in many ways.

I have some real doubts that she will want to come back to me, no matter what I become. There is a lot of damage to overcome.

Said he was leaving as soon as he could, that he wanted to restore his marriage. Tried to lecture me on how what I was doing was destroying my marriage. Told him I didn't care what he thought, I didn't expect him to like it. Told me to leave, not come back. I told him I already said what I wanted.

I am afraid I am coming off as a crazy man.

Hi Herb, As you know I have been following your thread. To be honest I don't think going to his home was crazy at all. I think you did the right thing. Telling another man to stay away from YOUR wife. Sounds rather chivalrous IMO. Stop beating yourself up . . . please. I think the BS's all realize their part in the marital disconnection but those areas of improvement that can be applied to the "new marriage" with their Spouse. You are doing all that you can right now! Start believing it! Please?

Herb,

Your situation is FAR from hopeless. She is still in the home, she is still interacting with you. Even when she's being hateful, she's showing that she's involved in the marriage.

I think this is almost certainly where she's coming from right now. You ignored her needs for a long long time. She told you in every way she could think of. She tried her very very best. She gave the marriage everything, and none of it was good enough. You obviously did not care about her at all. This went on for a long, long time. It was not a "phase." It was her life, and it sucked.

Eventually the rejection and loneliness and hurts took their toll and she became vulnerable to another person's attentions. She finally felt alive, valuable, appreciated, interesting, worthy. I'm sure her conscience bothered her (and still does) but she justified her behaviors by telling herself she'd done everything humanly possible and you were not receptive nor interested.

And now, NOW that she is feeling good about herself again, and finds the old wounds healing, you come in and bust it all up. You bet she's angry!!

She's angry because you ignored her for so long. She's angry because she found someone who made her feel alive and interesting and you took that away. She's angry because (in her mind) you are ruining the name and reputation of the only person in the world who understands her... the only good person she knows.

But MOST OF ALL, she's angry because now that she's finally found some reasons to be happy about herself again, and some reason to wake up each morning... NOW you say you want to be married? NOW you say you see your errors and want to change? NOW??!!! Not back when she was busting her tail and practically turning backflips to get you to notice her? No, you waited until she had endured more hurt and rejection than she thought possible, built a protective cocoon around herself, and was finally managing to cope. And once she had endured and coped and persevered and found her feet under her... YOU came in, ripped it all away, and say "Gee, I messed up. Let's be pals."

She is probably FURIOUS. I was her once, and I was majorly pissed off. The only thing my (now-ex H) did was to hand me a paper bag with about a dozen cards in it and say "See, I *was* thinking about you all this time." My emotional response was "Sorry buddy, too little too late, see ya!"

If he had demonstrated to me, via his consistent actions, that he valued me and was willing to make a permanent change in his behavior, I think I would have given it another chance (maybe, hard to say). I know if he'd even been able to stall my exit, and had demonstrated consistent behavioral changes, we'd still be married today. But, he obviously didn't care enough to do anything more than hand me a bunch of blank unsigned cards that he'd supposedly been stockpiling over the months and years.

So what I'm trying to say is yes, your wife is angry. She's angry at a LOT of things. But there is a LOT of hope here. It took you a long, long time to reach this dreadful state and it will take you a long, long time to crawl up out of the pit. Just set your long distance goals (happy healthy marriage), then make some milestones (kill affair, counseling), then focus on the first milestone and make consistent steps toward it every single day. Do not waiver!

Right now your wife is watching you, waiting for you to mess up. She thinks this is a trick, a ploy to win her back and make things comfortable for yourself. She is afraid the old you will pop out at any moment and she fears that more than anything. It hurts too much to face again. She almost managed to break free of that hurt once and she's very reluctant to sign up for it again.

So take consistent baby steps toward your goal and do not waiver. Sorry for the novel.

turtlehead, you been talking to her? I don't think you missed anything.

This is the part that really concerns me.

Herb, we understand you both did bad things in this marriage leading to the separate sleeping arrangements. But that is no reason to continue to do them in the future.

We are focusing on RECOVERY and you are focusing why you should be EXPELLED from your marital bed.

Herb, please listen to us. This is a critical component of rebuilding INTIMACY in your marriage. The past has to be left in the past and because of that, the FUTURE MUST BE DIFFERENT.

If you want to have an intimate, close relationship with your wife, that involves moving back into that bedroom. the structure that ENABLES marital recovery must be there and that involves sleeping together. Sleeping apart is part of the problem in the PAST and you can see where that got you. It will not help you in the future.

I know, I really do. I just am having issues somehow with this part. Not because I don't want to. Give me a little time. I can't really figure it out myself.

This is an arrogant, evil, unrepentant man. For the rapist to lecture the rape victim on recovery tactics tells me he is absolutely unremorseful for what he has done to you and your wife, Herb.

He is trying to make you feel like you are crazy for recognizing and exposing his EVIL. He is trying to manipulate you into silence so he does not have to face the consequences of his actions.

And Herb, I am not suggesting you send out fliers, but that you continually notify everyone until this fox is removed. Even if it does take fliers. If church authorities don't do their God given task and remove him, then it will fall to you to warn other families what this man is. He is a FOX in the henhouse!

I want you to think about something else, my friend, because the recognition of this truth changes lives: feelings FOLLOW ACTIONS. Not the other way around. Feelings of intimacy will come from ACTIONS that enable intimacy. She will feel more intimate if you continue to try and meet her needs and be thoughtful and kind and considerate, while at the same time, making sure that you are no longer living a life of DETACHMENT that led to this terrible place.

You said this on the previous page
herb, don't let guilt stop you from taking back your M.

The past is the past. Plan A is about unfolding a new herb, new and improved for all BS's.

Don't think you are too far off, from seeing him in action. I don't feel in my heart he is evil, but the threat his actions have caused to him and the surprise he feels that someone was able to outsmart him in a way has made him a disturbed man.
Didn't work


That is my plan. I have now gone outside the deacon body. This respected man has brought another deacon into the loop, one that is quite troubled, in a large part because the original group has kept it to themselves. The light is falling in many places.

My main message to OM was that I am not stopping.

And this is the problem, Herb.



He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool : but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered. Proverbs 28:26

Your heart is deceitful and has led you wrong. This man should be judged by his ACTIONS, not his nice, silky, false words, Herb. Going by your feelings about him has led you WRONG and enabled this FOX:

Jerimiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?

10 "I the LORD search the heart
and examine the mind,
to reward a man according to his conduct,
according to what his deeds deserve."


Do you think that evil looks like EVIL? Remember how soothing and kind the devil was to Jesus in the Bible?

This is so hard, and it is only beginning.



I am really having a hard time seeing the hurt I did cause. No denying. I took a beautiful, fun, and loving girl that I love and did love dearly and caused so much pain that she is afraid to let me close again.

Forgiving yourself is harder than forgiving others. I know all about repentance, reconciliation, and grace. The baggage is hard to let go, I know it is holding me down.

“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matt 7:15-23)

Hard to argue with that

Well like I said, his only ACTION was handing me a bag of blank cards that he'd supposedly been buying over the years but never even bothered to sign or give to me. Not a lot of action there to support the professed desire to fix the marriage.

So you gotta SHOW her you're willing to change. You can apologize, and talk all you want (by the way I wouldn't talk relationship talk right now, unless she brings it up), but ACTIONS are where it's at.

You need to keep on making her cups of tea even when she says she doesn't want them. You need to tell her how beautiful she is, how great her hair smells, how much you love her eyes, what a fabulous Mom she is and how much you appreciate all the stuff she does (be specific!) in keeping the household running smoothly.

You did great, by the way, in scheduling the sleep study. I think she was against it because if you start taking ACTIONS then it makes it hard for her to continue the self-talk about how you don't care and you'll never change. If you change, she'll be expected to change, too, and that scares her.

I believe you should move back into your bedroom. If she accuses you of forcing yourself on her, just tell her that you want to be a MARRIED couple, and married couples sleep together. That you are on the path to becoming a better husband and building a real marriage. That she is welcome to join you, or not, as she chooses - but that you really hope she'll join you.

I think her resistance to having you in the bedroom is due to several reasons: it makes it hard for her to keep telling herself you don't even care about her enough to share a bed with her; it makes her admit you're making real changes; she might be waiting on that 60 days of living "separately" (even if under the same roof) before she can file for divorce.

You say you left lots of stuff up to her, including being the "bad guy" where disciplining the children was concerned, and keeping up with finances. What do you think about enrolling in a parenting class and then asking for her input on topics you've covered in class? Ask for her perspective about how that pertains to you and what you can improve (and what you're doing right). What about fixing stuff around the house and chipping away at her "honey-do" list?

Every day you sit around fretting, and failing to DO something, is another step closer to the door for her. You need to quit waiting until it "feels right" to move back into that bedroom. You need to start fixing stuff around the house w/o her asking. And start appreciating her and worshipping her, instead of whimpering.

I know. I know how hard this is.

She's standing in the kitchen loading the dish washer. You come in, start gathering dishes to rinse and help her load. She's pulling clothes out of the dryer, you take the basket from her, start folding and sorting clothes. Kids start fussing, talking back to mom, you say, "Stop now. You will not disrespect your mother this way." Bill collector calls, your wife answers, you hear her side of the conversation, you take the phone away from her, "this is Mr. So and So, how can I help you?"

See... you're showing her your willingness to help. Talking on the phone, dealing with a problem, you're protecting her. Intervening with the kids, you're honoring her as their mother.

My husband FLOORED me the first time he walked in the kitchen and told me to go put my feet up, he'd do the dishes. It was the LITTLE things that he started changing that got my attention.

That timeframe has passed multiple times, sadly
I'm afraid that ship has sailed. Two in college, one almost 15. They are good kids, not a lot of disciplining to do now. She thinks the kids view her in a certain way because of how that played out. I don't think it is nearly what she thinks it is.
I have been much better at that since the separation started last fall. It was the first, most obvious, thing to do. I did so much that it actually highlighted the shortfalls from before.

Part of the reason I am floundering now. I have always done this, way more than my share to be honest. That is part of how I got to where I was. I was providing many things that I felt I should be appreciated for, but I wasn't speaking the right language, using the correct currency, whatever metaphor you want to use. I still do it all now, I don't resent it, but I know it will do little to change things, didn't before.
Should have done this more, my threshold was higher than hers, so I was always jumping in second.

Middle daughter is very sure that she knows everything, I do get on to her about always giving her opinion. But, she is 18 and at school. Missed the chance when it was there.

I am not giving up, saying it is hopeless. I am not disagreeing with anything you say. It is just that the one thing that got me here is the one thing that I cannot do at all right now.

And she's still there!
And you haven't received D papers yet!!!



http://parentingmyteen.com/
http://parentingteens.about.com/
http://www.lifematters.com/teen.asp
http://www.parentingteensonline.com/
and on and on and on...

Find a site you like, read some of the articles, bring one up in conversation and ask for her input. Does she agree or not? Why? Listen with interest. Take mental notes. Put her comments into action where possible.

Maybe you guys could use a break. Can your daughter stay w/grandparents or something while you and the wife go away for a weekend to a place she loves? A cabin in the woods with nothing but quiet and hiking trails. A place by the beach with art shops. A place in a bustling city with ballet and great restaurants. Just a day or two do have fun and laugh.

In addition to Turtle's great suggestions, I would get the book Fall in Love, Stay in Love, read it and then leave it lying around for her to find. I have an extra copy here I can send you [I won it free by calling the MB radio show a few years ago and have ended up with 3 copies of it so you are welcome to have it] If you want it email me at ohmelodylane@aol.com and I would be happy to send it.

I think the biggest problem is that your wife is in withdrawal, and because of that, cannot see her way out of this. She sees no hope at all. And neither do you, because you are going by her state of mind NOW.

Her state of mind will CHANGE dramatically as long as the OM stays gone.

So, if you can keep him away and keep hammering her with hope {"we can fall in love again using this program"] you can plant seeds.

It really does work, Herb. have you checked out some of Dr Harley's free videos he has on this website? Here is a good one: here

I really think she would be all for that.

Except for the part about me being there too.

Today's update: Nothing to update

Almost zero interaction last night. Probably needed a break.

I hope this is the nadir, but it is so dark right now that there is no way to see the next step. There has always been a way to go farther down so far.

So you're going to sit on your butt and do nothing?

You know what Herb,

After some of the dust had settled post D-Day, I said something to my H and I meant it with every ounce of soul that I have.

I'm sure I looked like a crazy, and out of my mind sort of person with everything I had to do save my M.

I told WH that if I were ever in his position, I would hope to H3LL that he would get crazed enough and be man enough to do the things I had to do.

Sometimes you just have to take the bull by the horns, because the other person just isn't capable of seeing beyond their own distorted thoughts.

No, just a little frustrated. I kind of feel like a man leaning against a wall, holding it up. It is hard work, but at the end of the day, you can't really tell you accomplished anything. But the wall is still standing.

Herb - I had to force a lot of things with my wife that she "wasn't ready for". Not saying it is the right thing to do in your situation but it seems to have been the right thing for me to do. My reason to her was that I wasn't going to let our marriage be the marriage it was before all this mess happened. I was going to do what needed to be done to have a better marriage.

So, I wasn't going to stop showing affection because she wasn't ready for it. I wasn't going to sleep in a different room. The list goes on.

You need to take the lead and build the marriage you want. The status quo is not the way you want to live and you will need to drive the change by showing her the man you can be.

Stop focusing on what you CAN'T do and the shoulda, woulda, coulda's and GET TO WORK DOING THE THINGS YOU CAN!!

Herb, have you taken the time to think about what you want? Have you taken the time to talk to your wife about the future? It might help determine the direction of your M. If you create some goals and work together to reach those goals. Fill out the EN's and have her fill one out too, and that way you both know what you want as well as what the other wants. Give you both the chance to be what the other needs.

That's just my two cents.

I have told her many times what I want to do, a vision of a marriage that should have been all along.

There has yet to be a sign from her that she is going to commit to work on anything. There is no working together of any kind. None.

I can only do a limited number of things, and most of them I did before.

Just waiting for the changes everyone tells me will come.

Well I don't think anyone can promise you anything. Because it depends on the people and the situation. I have told my husband what I want and have been waiting a long time for him to change. And I know he loves me, but he doesn't do what I need, he only does what he wants and it rarely has anything to do with me. But I don't think he ever will, so I either have to live with it and be a very lonely wife, or I have to stop trying to change him and start changing myself. In changing myself I do what is best for me and my son. I don't know if that means that I will stay in this marriage or if I will leave, only time will tell.

But the point I am trying to make is that maybe its time to start working on yourself. Doing things that make you happy. And when she sees you happy she will either want to be a part of it, or not. But at least you are smiling more, and you will then be strong enough to handle whatever happens.

Things took a bad turn last night, and I did it.

This has turned me into a very suspicious person.

I told you how I confronted the OM and taped the conversation the other day. The deacon that has come into the loop, I called him and told him I had had a talk with OM so he would not be in the dark when he spoke to him. I mentioned I had taped it. Deacon mentioned it to OM, so I knew he knew.

Like I said, I have become very untrusting. I needed to know for sure if NC was on. I put the recorder in my wife's car last night. She went out to pick up daughter from youth group and came home. After she went upstairs, I went to get the recorder to see if it worked correctly. It wasn't there. This only meant on thing, that they had spoken and he warned her about me recording. I was furious. I went up and confronted her, she acted like she didn't know what I was talking about. I told her I knew she found it, what that meant, I wasn't a fool, and if she was going to continue this contact that I wanted her to get out..

She was adamant she had no idea what I was talking about. We went to the car and found the recorder where it had slid to.

Obviously, she was enraged. Nothing I said makes any difference now. Any little progress has be set back to less that zero.

She said that she would get a court order to get me out of the house if I don't leave. I expect that will come.

I don't think I have enough sense to do this.

It probably is irretrievably broken now.

LOL - on what grounds???

Don't believe anything a WW says. It's what she does that counts. Don't let her bully you with threats into leaving your own home.

So you slipped up last night. If I was in your shoes, I would have simply not mentioned the recorder at all to her. But no use crying over spilled milk.

The unfortunate result of this is now she knows you're spying on her to that level. This can cause her to go even deeper underground with contact.

Nothing much last night. No court order, no change. She did stay down and watch TV, the 3 of us, until 9 or so. Longer than usual lately. Not much interaction.

This kind of reminds me of the stock market and my 401k. The bad days seem to drag it down a lot farther than the good days bring it up. And it is way down from where it used to be.

Any resolution on the sleeping arangements?

No.

Herb, she is never going to invite you back into YOUR bed. You need to take action.

Clearly Herb doesn't really want to be back in the marital bedroom. If he did want to be there, he would. There is NOTHING preventing him moving into the bedroom except his own fears and justifications.

mmmherb,
What happened to the idea of getting in the bed before she does. Let her find other bed in the house if she wants to. Stand your ground.

GG

Herb, Have you tried leaving love notes on her pillow? Anything that shows her how much you want to be with her. Have you tried the EN Questionnaire? If you think she will fill one out, you should try. It might help you figure out what it is that she wants and then you can go back to doing what makes her happy then she can read your EN's and she can do what makes you happy. That should get you closer to sleeping in the same bed. That's just my two cents.

The last thing a WW in withdrawal needs is "love noted on her pillow".

Hang tough Herb.

Oh yeah? Why not?

turtlehead posted this a couple of pages back:


What's the difference?

Charlotte

I kind of agree with Charotte, Af is normally a top EN for women and making a $LB deposit is a good thing I would have thought.

JMO

Telling his wife in withdrawal how much he loves her will cause her to throw up.

I've also had the "benefit" of living with a WW through withdrawal too - so I just *might* have some idea what I am talking about.

BK,
You're right. MM's wife is not ready for the lovey dovey stuff. She just needs to continue knowing he is not going to quit and that he is going to keep trying.

GG

Why do you indulge her like that? Its your bed. She is the cheater. Now you're just enabling her. Cut off the finances, kick her out of your bed. Unless you want to be going through the same thing when your thread pages reach 258. The ball is in your court.

Herb, how are you doing?

I don't think the note needs to say how much he loves her to be a "love note".

It could be inspirational things like "remember at such and such party so and so told me you light up a room. You know sos and so was so right."

"Your the most amazing cook....the way you stuff a turkey julia child is put to shame"

you get the idea.

Something not lovey dovey. But will make her think oh he does appreciate that thing I do and he pays attention. And even something that makes her chuckle. That I consider a love note.

Thank you SIHW I guess I need to be more specific next time. I do apologize for that. But there are many things that the note(s) can say whether lovey dovey or not. Just be creative. Think about what you want to happen and how you think the notes would make her feel. Something that says, I am thinking about you, and and I still think you are a great person.

Change one of those 'W' to an H and I also have had the dubious pleasure of lving with a witdrawing spouse...twice. I also might have a little idea of what I am talking bout.

SIHW, thats a great idea. Flick would not listen to my ILU's but he would listen to me telling him things I admired about him. I gave him one everydays made up from skillls he had, memeories that were special to me, and thiks I appreciated about him.

Lil- Men and women are different.

Without getting into any arguments I'll just state what happened in our house with me as the WW.

My H wrote me a love letter soon after d-day which made our MC cry she was so moved. He read it to me in front of her. She looked at me and said, "isn't that beautiful, it's the most beautiful love letter I've ever heard - how did it make you feel." I shrugged and said "well, yes, it was lovely..but..."

On the other hand, soon after d-day we went out for lunch - we wanted to get away from the "A". My H wore a smart shirt and smart pants. I was very touched that he'd made the effort to look smart for me because he knew it was important to me. The lunch was lovely - he held my hand, he let me have a glass of wine - i.e. he didn't say "I'm not paying that price for one glass of wine."

He did lots of things like that. They were his Plan A and they ALL meant something to me.

BTW he still does things like that and I reciprocate and do all the things HE likes. It's lovely and it makes us both very happy.

FWIW I think it's ESSENTIAL to recovery to share the same bed.

That's understandable. Gray was never in withdrawal but I stopped the lovey-dovey notes and things before I found MB (or MB found me, LOL) I did still get him cards and things, but they were more of a generic, friend-type thing.

And I did nice things for him and always made food that he enjoyed, no "wet" chicken for instance, ha ha. I had been reading numerous other relationship books and some of them were the Michelle Weiner books so I was also attempting the 180 thing--doing things for myself so I would feel better about me, things like that.

Of course, he and Slag were mocking me for all of this and calling me a "Stepford Wife." Har de har har. But...whatever.

I know it did make a teeny bit of difference, even with clothing. We were still seeing a movie here and there so I would dress nicer instead of just shorts and a tee or something and he would still compliment me now and then. I think other men must have been looking--(but I don't know, I didn't notice much around me at that time)--just because he noticed that his wife was turning heads.

So waywards do notice these things--sometimes you can tell immediately and sometimes it takes a while to register on them, LOL!

So, hang in there, Herb. Just think of it as Chinese Water Torture...eventually it will have an impact.

Take care,

Charlotte

Yeah I had kinda guessed that

Sorry

heheheheheehe

Herb, you there?

Still here. Not much time to post this weekend.

No big changes. She seemed to be more depressed this weekend. Her words are this, in a nutshell:

"I can't see any hope for happiness in my future. I don't have it in me to try."

I hope it is just the deep part of the withdrawal and things will change. Time will tell.

I read all the debate from this weekend. Thanks for all the input. Big Kahuna seems to have it pegged.

There is nothing I can say to her that will make her anything but more despondent. All I can really say is that I am not ready to give up, that we can do it. It will be hard, and will be hard a long time, but we can do it.

There is no desire for her to do anything with me, to engage in regular conversation or do anything together.

Like BigK said, I am just trying to hang in there.

No change in sleeping arrangements yet. I know, be a man, kick her out of bed.

Nobody said to kick her out of bed. You need to go sleep in your bed. She can decide where she wants to sleep. You can't decide for her.

Hi Berb! Glad to see you are alive. And no, we don't want you to kick her out of bed. That would not be the act of a gentleman. We just want you go sleep in your own bed and join her. If she chooses to leave, that doesn't mean you "kicked her out" it just means she chose to leave. She is a big enough girl to take accountability for her own actions.

But this continued detachment has to end if you want to fix this marriage. You are doing good ignoring her fogbabble, but we need you to take the STEPS to ensure the framework is in place to repair your marriage as she comes out of her fog. We need you to fight for that.

Keep your chin up!

I agree with Mel, One thing I notice is that you take absolutely no leadership in your marriage. Think about this for a moment. You let her be the center of the family. The fact is, she chose to be outside the family. Instead of saying "I love you, hope to see you again when you decide to be part of the family once more", you coddle her. You keep her from hitting bottom, because you believe she will pull herself out of it. Here is a wake up call.

1. She can't pull herself out of it if she thinks your marriage isn't worth saving.

2. And she won't think your marriage is worth saving until she appreciates it.

3. And she won't appreciate it until she appreciates you.

4. And she won't appreciate you, until she respects you.

5. And she won't respect you until you stop chasing her around trying to get her to love you again.

I will put it in more dramatic terms. You guys are going down the rapids in a small boat (your marriage), you and your whole family. Your wife is rocking the boat and running around yelling "I hate this boat. I don't want to be on this boat. This boat sucks. Now you are running around and yelling, "this is a great boat and I love you being in it". The fact is right now your wife hates the boat. What you need to do, is get a life line (your love) tie it around her waist, and throw her a$$ over board. You see, she needs to experience life outside the boat. You see, outside the boat, it is cold and wet, there isn't any money, no one is chasing you. She has to swim. You and your love are willing to pull her back in to the boat. But she has to want to get back in the boat (your marriage). Understand? But by all means, continue in the way you are going. Its not getting better, its getting worse. Your wife needs to crash and burn. She needs to be humbled and brought to crisis. You have taught her to hold you and your marriage in contempt. How's that working for you?

You need to make one big change.
You need to get your hiney in that bed.
This does NOT mean kick her out. It only means that you are married, you sleep in the married peoples' bed. She can do whatever she wants. She can move to the sofa, downstairs, hotel... whatever. But YOU need to get a grip and get into that bedroom.

Out of curiosity why have you not, yet? I figure you have some good reason, because it's certainly been posted to you over and over, but you haven't yet moved into the bedroom. So what's the thinking on that?


Don't even pay attention to what she says. She'll be up one minute, down the next, blaming you, her childhood... just ignore what she says right now. Her feelings will be all over the map. You cannot own them, you cannot control them, and you shouldn't react to them. You just need to stick to your Plan A.

Meet her ENs
Avoid LBs
Expose
Let her own her stuff (her misery, her decisions)
NO relationship talk

Probably. Keep meeting those ENs. She won't respond now but you'll accomplish a couple of things by meeting her ENs:

1. She can't justify her behavior as easily. She can't tell herself "Herb never helps around the house. Herb doesn't listen to me; he doesn't understand me." and so on.

2. Once she is through the withdrawal, she'll be able to look back more clearly and appreciate all you've been doing. Then the deposits will be made into her $LB.

I can't really explain, justify, or figure out my response to the bedroom. ouchthathurt has a big part correct about the leadership in marriage thing. That is a growing process in me, not there yet, it seems. Part is the fact that I am the one that left it in the beginning and got and never did anything about it. Let that become my life. The habits I developed during this time are disgusting to me now and make me feel like a pervert at times. I feel ashamed that even now I have to fight them, not always successfully. It is much different now, not a part of my life, but I still feel worthless at times.

I know how important it is. I know that she will reject everything I have right now. But I still want to avoid the rejection, so I avoid.

I still have some ways to go myself. I have to prepare myself, it seems.

I know avoiding it will not make it go away, not make it better, will make it worse.

I don't have much confidence in myself.

You understand yourself well. I'd expected you to side-step the question, but you didn't. You faced it head on. You're doing better than the day you showed up here at MB.

It is SO normal to fear rejection, to want to avoid it. Rejection is no picnic and you KNOW that when you move into the bedroom, the rejection is coming. Of course you want to avoid it.

You said it yourself though:
I know avoiding it will not make it go away, not make it better, will make it worse.

I see your situation right now like a person who thinks they might have cancer. They're putting off going to the doctor, because they fear the news they will probably get. They understand that early detection is key, but they can't find it within themselves to make the appointment, to take charge. It's safer to stick with the familiar.

I know a man who died of cancer precisely because he had that attitude. I see your marriage dying in the same manner, and it's a shame.

I am changing, I feel myself being better able to do this, soon.

You've waited and put off being a part of your marriage for years. This is what you WW is seeing you do again. That's a big part of why she doesn't see this going anywhere.


"Soon" might be too late.

I can see why. You don't have confidence that you will do what is necessary to lead your marriage. And so far you are right!! You need to know you can count on HERB in order to have confidence in Herb.

I have self confidence because i know I can count on myself to do the right thing no matter how hard. That is why I am confident.

Your confidence will come when you start stepping up to the plate and taking care of Herb. Feelings follow actions, feelings follow actions...

I am not going to post anymore today. I know what I need to do. I have to be the one to lead us to where I know we can go. Just when you think you have looked in the mirror and seen everything you can, a different light shows something new.

Thanks for caring.

God Bless you, Herb! {{{{{{{{{Herb}}}}}}}}}}}}

Stop being afraid of your WW. Get in that bed. You are not kicking her out of the bed. That's her choice. Your refusal is showing your WW that you have not changed.

This quote showed up in my path shortly after d-day:

"Do not go where the path may lead; instead go where there is no path and leave a trail."

Get off this path to nowhere, Herb. Start a new trail, a new life, a new adventure!

I too was far from confident and so very afraid, but that quote spoke to me on many levels. I read it every morning when I wake up and my trail is amazing!

When I told my FWH that I wasn't going down that path anymore and I was starting my own trail with or without him, it jarred him. He was intrigued by my self-confidence. His eyes finally started to open and it was all because I decided to make the change in MYSELF. There was nothing I could do to change him or the way he was feeling at the time, so I changed ME for the better. There is no magical "right" time. There is only NOW.

You CAN do this.

Won't be posting any more today. No sense wasting you folks time.

You are not wasting our time!

Have you started the book yet? How do you like it, Herb?

I have not started yet. Been listening to HNHN on cd. Also finishing SAA.

Nothing else changed.

Don't despair, it will get better, Herb!

bump for mmmherb . . .

said a prayer for you herb - I have not written to you yet, but I've been reading your thread. I know it's difficult, I am a former BW things are so much better in my situation. MB principals gave us some tools to use practically, but our situation turned around because of a truly repentant FWH and us both being open to God's intervention. I am hoping to hear something positive in your situation!

Thanks, I am still here, nothing much to report. Maybe a little less chilly at home, but I am not the most objective judge.

OT, I guess, but I have seem many mentions of MB weekends in various posts. I am not able to find any information about them. Once I saw an ad on the home page for a weekend, but the link took to me to information about the online program. Before and since then, all the ads are for the online program.

Has the online program replaced the weekends, or are they infrequently scheduled? Am I looking in the wrong place?

Not that I think there is a chance in Hades that we will ever go to one.

Herb, go rent the DVD 'The Secret', get it for the whole weekend so you can watch it twice.

You are correct, the online program replaces the weekend seminar. But, you get as much offline support as with the weekend.

MMH
A little less chilly is a step forward. How's it going with bedroom - have you tried to get there first?

GG

No real change in status.

And there will continue to be no change until you take action (sleeping in your own bed would be a start).

Herb - what's going on? You doing o.k.?

MMMherb,

How are you???


GG

How's it going, Herb?

I guess I owe people an update. I will give the condensed version.

Wife was in EA with our pastor. After the first exposure, we quit attending there.

When I quit posting here, it was a little over a year ago. I had exposed. My wife was very depressed, upset and angry. Things were quite stressful and in mid-May last year I moved to an apartment, which I immediately regretted and realized was a mistake. I had learned my wife's passwords and continued snooping as best I could. Discovered renewed contact via facebook messages. I exposed a little more widely, but still never blew the lid off the church. Exposed again to his wife and this time too his adult daughter. This seemed to stop the contact for as long as I could somewhat monitor it, which wasn't all that long as will be explained later. I moved back home against her wishes. This was in late June.

She immediately filed for divorce. I retained a lawyer. She filed a motion for temporary relief, asking for her to have residency in our house. The hearing was in August, I agreed to move the day before the hearing. I should have gone to court, but anyway, I had to move. At the end of Sept., I started Plan B, still hopeful that we would reconcile. In my answers to her interrogatories, I named OM as a potential witness, even though KY is a no fault state and adultery is immaterial. In my requests I, asked for phone records, emails, etc.

I sent OM a registered letter vetted by my lawyer informing him that he would be asked for his testimony under oath. This was just before Thanksgiving.

Like most BS, I kept hoping things like our anniversary, children's birthdays, holidays, etc., would be the thing that would bring us back, They all passed. Plan B was working, just not like I envisioned it. I started feeling much better, I was coping, and detaching a little more all the time. But I still hoped. In mid December, there was a tragedy in my family. My brother committed suicide. There was a temporary limited break in Plan B. Of course, I was hoping that things would change, but they didn't. Christmas came and went. In early January, OM resigned from pastoring the church, I suspect the letter had something to do with it. He went back to working at a seminary. Any of you around Wake Forest might be leery.

About this time, I realized I was through. Our final hearing was already scheduled for March. I started moving to settle. Things were finalized in early April.

I have bought a house. Things are going well. I am OK. Plan B helped me mentally.

That is what Plan B is for.

mmmherb - what happened to your xWW? Did her Karma ever arrive?

Not really. Just erased me from her life, more or less. I don't have any contact with her, never talk to the kids about her. She is seeing someone now, I see them at my youngest's ballgames.

Sorry to hear ... how has your personal recovery gone? Are you still in Plan B ... How are your kids?

The kids are OK. The oldest two are grown. I miss being with my youngest, but she is 17 now. They come over regularly.

Not really plan b, because I don't avoid ballgames and things, so we see each other some. Minimal communication now, mostly just about money. I pretty much ignore her.

I'm doing OK. Stupefyingly bored most of the time. Have dated a little, nothing has stuck. I do get down sometimes. There was no reason things had to go the way they did, but I realize my part in letting things get to where they were, so I still have a lot of regrets.

I still have a part of me that yearns for reconciliation. I think I know enough now to have to have certain changes. I feel like I could make the changes I need to. Wish I'd had the chance to demonstrate. But I realize that the things about her that kept her from attempting recovery then will likely keep that from ever happening.

And I suspect I'm the only one that thinks about it.