Without getting into any arguments I'll just state what happened in our house with me as the WW.

My H wrote me a love letter soon after d-day which made our MC cry she was so moved. He read it to me in front of her. She looked at me and said, "isn't that beautiful, it's the most beautiful love letter I've ever heard - how did it make you feel." I shrugged and said "well, yes, it was lovely..but..."

On the other hand, soon after d-day we went out for lunch - we wanted to get away from the "A". My H wore a smart shirt and smart pants. I was very touched that he'd made the effort to look smart for me because he knew it was important to me. The lunch was lovely - he held my hand, he let me have a glass of wine - i.e. he didn't say "I'm not paying that price for one glass of wine."

He did lots of things like that. They were his Plan A and they ALL meant something to me.

BTW he still does things like that and I reciprocate and do all the things HE likes. It's lovely and it makes us both very happy.

FWIW I think it's ESSENTIAL to recovery to share the same bed.

That's understandable. Gray was never in withdrawal but I stopped the lovey-dovey notes and things before I found MB (or MB found me, LOL) I did still get him cards and things, but they were more of a generic, friend-type thing.

And I did nice things for him and always made food that he enjoyed, no "wet" chicken for instance, ha ha. I had been reading numerous other relationship books and some of them were the Michelle Weiner books so I was also attempting the 180 thing--doing things for myself so I would feel better about me, things like that.

Of course, he and Slag were mocking me for all of this and calling me a "Stepford Wife." Har de har har. But...whatever.

I know it did make a teeny bit of difference, even with clothing. We were still seeing a movie here and there so I would dress nicer instead of just shorts and a tee or something and he would still compliment me now and then. I think other men must have been looking--(but I don't know, I didn't notice much around me at that time)--just because he noticed that his wife was turning heads.

So waywards do notice these things--sometimes you can tell immediately and sometimes it takes a while to register on them, LOL!

So, hang in there, Herb. Just think of it as Chinese Water Torture...eventually it will have an impact.

Take care,

Charlotte

Yeah I had kinda guessed that

Sorry

heheheheheehe

Herb, you there?

Still here. Not much time to post this weekend.

No big changes. She seemed to be more depressed this weekend. Her words are this, in a nutshell:

"I can't see any hope for happiness in my future. I don't have it in me to try."

I hope it is just the deep part of the withdrawal and things will change. Time will tell.

I read all the debate from this weekend. Thanks for all the input. Big Kahuna seems to have it pegged.

There is nothing I can say to her that will make her anything but more despondent. All I can really say is that I am not ready to give up, that we can do it. It will be hard, and will be hard a long time, but we can do it.

There is no desire for her to do anything with me, to engage in regular conversation or do anything together.

Like BigK said, I am just trying to hang in there.

No change in sleeping arrangements yet. I know, be a man, kick her out of bed.

Nobody said to kick her out of bed. You need to go sleep in your bed. She can decide where she wants to sleep. You can't decide for her.

Hi Berb! Glad to see you are alive. And no, we don't want you to kick her out of bed. That would not be the act of a gentleman. We just want you go sleep in your own bed and join her. If she chooses to leave, that doesn't mean you "kicked her out" it just means she chose to leave. She is a big enough girl to take accountability for her own actions.

But this continued detachment has to end if you want to fix this marriage. You are doing good ignoring her fogbabble, but we need you to take the STEPS to ensure the framework is in place to repair your marriage as she comes out of her fog. We need you to fight for that.

Keep your chin up!

I agree with Mel, One thing I notice is that you take absolutely no leadership in your marriage. Think about this for a moment. You let her be the center of the family. The fact is, she chose to be outside the family. Instead of saying "I love you, hope to see you again when you decide to be part of the family once more", you coddle her. You keep her from hitting bottom, because you believe she will pull herself out of it. Here is a wake up call.

1. She can't pull herself out of it if she thinks your marriage isn't worth saving.

2. And she won't think your marriage is worth saving until she appreciates it.

3. And she won't appreciate it until she appreciates you.

4. And she won't appreciate you, until she respects you.

5. And she won't respect you until you stop chasing her around trying to get her to love you again.

I will put it in more dramatic terms. You guys are going down the rapids in a small boat (your marriage), you and your whole family. Your wife is rocking the boat and running around yelling "I hate this boat. I don't want to be on this boat. This boat sucks. Now you are running around and yelling, "this is a great boat and I love you being in it". The fact is right now your wife hates the boat. What you need to do, is get a life line (your love) tie it around her waist, and throw her a$$ over board. You see, she needs to experience life outside the boat. You see, outside the boat, it is cold and wet, there isn't any money, no one is chasing you. She has to swim. You and your love are willing to pull her back in to the boat. But she has to want to get back in the boat (your marriage). Understand? But by all means, continue in the way you are going. Its not getting better, its getting worse. Your wife needs to crash and burn. She needs to be humbled and brought to crisis. You have taught her to hold you and your marriage in contempt. How's that working for you?

You need to make one big change.
You need to get your hiney in that bed.
This does NOT mean kick her out. It only means that you are married, you sleep in the married peoples' bed. She can do whatever she wants. She can move to the sofa, downstairs, hotel... whatever. But YOU need to get a grip and get into that bedroom.

Out of curiosity why have you not, yet? I figure you have some good reason, because it's certainly been posted to you over and over, but you haven't yet moved into the bedroom. So what's the thinking on that?


Don't even pay attention to what she says. She'll be up one minute, down the next, blaming you, her childhood... just ignore what she says right now. Her feelings will be all over the map. You cannot own them, you cannot control them, and you shouldn't react to them. You just need to stick to your Plan A.

Meet her ENs
Avoid LBs
Expose
Let her own her stuff (her misery, her decisions)
NO relationship talk

Probably. Keep meeting those ENs. She won't respond now but you'll accomplish a couple of things by meeting her ENs:

1. She can't justify her behavior as easily. She can't tell herself "Herb never helps around the house. Herb doesn't listen to me; he doesn't understand me." and so on.

2. Once she is through the withdrawal, she'll be able to look back more clearly and appreciate all you've been doing. Then the deposits will be made into her $LB.

I can't really explain, justify, or figure out my response to the bedroom. ouchthathurt has a big part correct about the leadership in marriage thing. That is a growing process in me, not there yet, it seems. Part is the fact that I am the one that left it in the beginning and got and never did anything about it. Let that become my life. The habits I developed during this time are disgusting to me now and make me feel like a pervert at times. I feel ashamed that even now I have to fight them, not always successfully. It is much different now, not a part of my life, but I still feel worthless at times.

I know how important it is. I know that she will reject everything I have right now. But I still want to avoid the rejection, so I avoid.

I still have some ways to go myself. I have to prepare myself, it seems.

I know avoiding it will not make it go away, not make it better, will make it worse.

I don't have much confidence in myself.

You understand yourself well. I'd expected you to side-step the question, but you didn't. You faced it head on. You're doing better than the day you showed up here at MB.

It is SO normal to fear rejection, to want to avoid it. Rejection is no picnic and you KNOW that when you move into the bedroom, the rejection is coming. Of course you want to avoid it.

You said it yourself though:
I know avoiding it will not make it go away, not make it better, will make it worse.

I see your situation right now like a person who thinks they might have cancer. They're putting off going to the doctor, because they fear the news they will probably get. They understand that early detection is key, but they can't find it within themselves to make the appointment, to take charge. It's safer to stick with the familiar.

I know a man who died of cancer precisely because he had that attitude. I see your marriage dying in the same manner, and it's a shame.

I am changing, I feel myself being better able to do this, soon.

You've waited and put off being a part of your marriage for years. This is what you WW is seeing you do again. That's a big part of why she doesn't see this going anywhere.


"Soon" might be too late.

I can see why. You don't have confidence that you will do what is necessary to lead your marriage. And so far you are right!! You need to know you can count on HERB in order to have confidence in Herb.

I have self confidence because i know I can count on myself to do the right thing no matter how hard. That is why I am confident.

Your confidence will come when you start stepping up to the plate and taking care of Herb. Feelings follow actions, feelings follow actions...

I am not going to post anymore today. I know what I need to do. I have to be the one to lead us to where I know we can go. Just when you think you have looked in the mirror and seen everything you can, a different light shows something new.

Thanks for caring.

God Bless you, Herb! {{{{{{{{{Herb}}}}}}}}}}}}

Stop being afraid of your WW. Get in that bed. You are not kicking her out of the bed. That's her choice. Your refusal is showing your WW that you have not changed.

This quote showed up in my path shortly after d-day:

"Do not go where the path may lead; instead go where there is no path and leave a trail."

Get off this path to nowhere, Herb. Start a new trail, a new life, a new adventure!

I too was far from confident and so very afraid, but that quote spoke to me on many levels. I read it every morning when I wake up and my trail is amazing!

When I told my FWH that I wasn't going down that path anymore and I was starting my own trail with or without him, it jarred him. He was intrigued by my self-confidence. His eyes finally started to open and it was all because I decided to make the change in MYSELF. There was nothing I could do to change him or the way he was feeling at the time, so I changed ME for the better. There is no magical "right" time. There is only NOW.

You CAN do this.