This is so hard, and it is only beginning.



I am really having a hard time seeing the hurt I did cause. No denying. I took a beautiful, fun, and loving girl that I love and did love dearly and caused so much pain that she is afraid to let me close again.

Forgiving yourself is harder than forgiving others. I know all about repentance, reconciliation, and grace. The baggage is hard to let go, I know it is holding me down.

“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matt 7:15-23)

Hard to argue with that

Well like I said, his only ACTION was handing me a bag of blank cards that he'd supposedly been buying over the years but never even bothered to sign or give to me. Not a lot of action there to support the professed desire to fix the marriage.

So you gotta SHOW her you're willing to change. You can apologize, and talk all you want (by the way I wouldn't talk relationship talk right now, unless she brings it up), but ACTIONS are where it's at.

You need to keep on making her cups of tea even when she says she doesn't want them. You need to tell her how beautiful she is, how great her hair smells, how much you love her eyes, what a fabulous Mom she is and how much you appreciate all the stuff she does (be specific!) in keeping the household running smoothly.

You did great, by the way, in scheduling the sleep study. I think she was against it because if you start taking ACTIONS then it makes it hard for her to continue the self-talk about how you don't care and you'll never change. If you change, she'll be expected to change, too, and that scares her.

I believe you should move back into your bedroom. If she accuses you of forcing yourself on her, just tell her that you want to be a MARRIED couple, and married couples sleep together. That you are on the path to becoming a better husband and building a real marriage. That she is welcome to join you, or not, as she chooses - but that you really hope she'll join you.

I think her resistance to having you in the bedroom is due to several reasons: it makes it hard for her to keep telling herself you don't even care about her enough to share a bed with her; it makes her admit you're making real changes; she might be waiting on that 60 days of living "separately" (even if under the same roof) before she can file for divorce.

You say you left lots of stuff up to her, including being the "bad guy" where disciplining the children was concerned, and keeping up with finances. What do you think about enrolling in a parenting class and then asking for her input on topics you've covered in class? Ask for her perspective about how that pertains to you and what you can improve (and what you're doing right). What about fixing stuff around the house and chipping away at her "honey-do" list?

Every day you sit around fretting, and failing to DO something, is another step closer to the door for her. You need to quit waiting until it "feels right" to move back into that bedroom. You need to start fixing stuff around the house w/o her asking. And start appreciating her and worshipping her, instead of whimpering.

I know. I know how hard this is.

She's standing in the kitchen loading the dish washer. You come in, start gathering dishes to rinse and help her load. She's pulling clothes out of the dryer, you take the basket from her, start folding and sorting clothes. Kids start fussing, talking back to mom, you say, "Stop now. You will not disrespect your mother this way." Bill collector calls, your wife answers, you hear her side of the conversation, you take the phone away from her, "this is Mr. So and So, how can I help you?"

See... you're showing her your willingness to help. Talking on the phone, dealing with a problem, you're protecting her. Intervening with the kids, you're honoring her as their mother.

My husband FLOORED me the first time he walked in the kitchen and told me to go put my feet up, he'd do the dishes. It was the LITTLE things that he started changing that got my attention.

That timeframe has passed multiple times, sadly
I'm afraid that ship has sailed. Two in college, one almost 15. They are good kids, not a lot of disciplining to do now. She thinks the kids view her in a certain way because of how that played out. I don't think it is nearly what she thinks it is.
I have been much better at that since the separation started last fall. It was the first, most obvious, thing to do. I did so much that it actually highlighted the shortfalls from before.

Part of the reason I am floundering now. I have always done this, way more than my share to be honest. That is part of how I got to where I was. I was providing many things that I felt I should be appreciated for, but I wasn't speaking the right language, using the correct currency, whatever metaphor you want to use. I still do it all now, I don't resent it, but I know it will do little to change things, didn't before.
Should have done this more, my threshold was higher than hers, so I was always jumping in second.

Middle daughter is very sure that she knows everything, I do get on to her about always giving her opinion. But, she is 18 and at school. Missed the chance when it was there.

I am not giving up, saying it is hopeless. I am not disagreeing with anything you say. It is just that the one thing that got me here is the one thing that I cannot do at all right now.

And she's still there!
And you haven't received D papers yet!!!



http://parentingmyteen.com/
http://parentingteens.about.com/
http://www.lifematters.com/teen.asp
http://www.parentingteensonline.com/
and on and on and on...

Find a site you like, read some of the articles, bring one up in conversation and ask for her input. Does she agree or not? Why? Listen with interest. Take mental notes. Put her comments into action where possible.

Maybe you guys could use a break. Can your daughter stay w/grandparents or something while you and the wife go away for a weekend to a place she loves? A cabin in the woods with nothing but quiet and hiking trails. A place by the beach with art shops. A place in a bustling city with ballet and great restaurants. Just a day or two do have fun and laugh.

In addition to Turtle's great suggestions, I would get the book Fall in Love, Stay in Love, read it and then leave it lying around for her to find. I have an extra copy here I can send you [I won it free by calling the MB radio show a few years ago and have ended up with 3 copies of it so you are welcome to have it] If you want it email me at ohmelodylane@aol.com and I would be happy to send it.

I think the biggest problem is that your wife is in withdrawal, and because of that, cannot see her way out of this. She sees no hope at all. And neither do you, because you are going by her state of mind NOW.

Her state of mind will CHANGE dramatically as long as the OM stays gone.

So, if you can keep him away and keep hammering her with hope {"we can fall in love again using this program"] you can plant seeds.

It really does work, Herb. have you checked out some of Dr Harley's free videos he has on this website? Here is a good one: here

I really think she would be all for that.

Except for the part about me being there too.

Today's update: Nothing to update

Almost zero interaction last night. Probably needed a break.

I hope this is the nadir, but it is so dark right now that there is no way to see the next step. There has always been a way to go farther down so far.

So you're going to sit on your butt and do nothing?

You know what Herb,

After some of the dust had settled post D-Day, I said something to my H and I meant it with every ounce of soul that I have.

I'm sure I looked like a crazy, and out of my mind sort of person with everything I had to do save my M.

I told WH that if I were ever in his position, I would hope to H3LL that he would get crazed enough and be man enough to do the things I had to do.

Sometimes you just have to take the bull by the horns, because the other person just isn't capable of seeing beyond their own distorted thoughts.

No, just a little frustrated. I kind of feel like a man leaning against a wall, holding it up. It is hard work, but at the end of the day, you can't really tell you accomplished anything. But the wall is still standing.

Herb - I had to force a lot of things with my wife that she "wasn't ready for". Not saying it is the right thing to do in your situation but it seems to have been the right thing for me to do. My reason to her was that I wasn't going to let our marriage be the marriage it was before all this mess happened. I was going to do what needed to be done to have a better marriage.

So, I wasn't going to stop showing affection because she wasn't ready for it. I wasn't going to sleep in a different room. The list goes on.

You need to take the lead and build the marriage you want. The status quo is not the way you want to live and you will need to drive the change by showing her the man you can be.

Stop focusing on what you CAN'T do and the shoulda, woulda, coulda's and GET TO WORK DOING THE THINGS YOU CAN!!

Herb, have you taken the time to think about what you want? Have you taken the time to talk to your wife about the future? It might help determine the direction of your M. If you create some goals and work together to reach those goals. Fill out the EN's and have her fill one out too, and that way you both know what you want as well as what the other wants. Give you both the chance to be what the other needs.

That's just my two cents.

I have told her many times what I want to do, a vision of a marriage that should have been all along.

There has yet to be a sign from her that she is going to commit to work on anything. There is no working together of any kind. None.

I can only do a limited number of things, and most of them I did before.

Just waiting for the changes everyone tells me will come.

Well I don't think anyone can promise you anything. Because it depends on the people and the situation. I have told my husband what I want and have been waiting a long time for him to change. And I know he loves me, but he doesn't do what I need, he only does what he wants and it rarely has anything to do with me. But I don't think he ever will, so I either have to live with it and be a very lonely wife, or I have to stop trying to change him and start changing myself. In changing myself I do what is best for me and my son. I don't know if that means that I will stay in this marriage or if I will leave, only time will tell.

But the point I am trying to make is that maybe its time to start working on yourself. Doing things that make you happy. And when she sees you happy she will either want to be a part of it, or not. But at least you are smiling more, and you will then be strong enough to handle whatever happens.

Things took a bad turn last night, and I did it.

This has turned me into a very suspicious person.

I told you how I confronted the OM and taped the conversation the other day. The deacon that has come into the loop, I called him and told him I had had a talk with OM so he would not be in the dark when he spoke to him. I mentioned I had taped it. Deacon mentioned it to OM, so I knew he knew.

Like I said, I have become very untrusting. I needed to know for sure if NC was on. I put the recorder in my wife's car last night. She went out to pick up daughter from youth group and came home. After she went upstairs, I went to get the recorder to see if it worked correctly. It wasn't there. This only meant on thing, that they had spoken and he warned her about me recording. I was furious. I went up and confronted her, she acted like she didn't know what I was talking about. I told her I knew she found it, what that meant, I wasn't a fool, and if she was going to continue this contact that I wanted her to get out..

She was adamant she had no idea what I was talking about. We went to the car and found the recorder where it had slid to.

Obviously, she was enraged. Nothing I said makes any difference now. Any little progress has be set back to less that zero.

She said that she would get a court order to get me out of the house if I don't leave. I expect that will come.

I don't think I have enough sense to do this.

It probably is irretrievably broken now.

LOL - on what grounds???

Don't believe anything a WW says. It's what she does that counts. Don't let her bully you with threats into leaving your own home.

So you slipped up last night. If I was in your shoes, I would have simply not mentioned the recorder at all to her. But no use crying over spilled milk.

The unfortunate result of this is now she knows you're spying on her to that level. This can cause her to go even deeper underground with contact.