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Originally Posted by Pepperband
It is non-denominational and, best of all, non-judgmental.

redflag [/quote]

It is a pretty strange thing for a repentant WS to appreciate "best of all" in a church.

Especially for one who "constantly beats himself up".

Makes it seem as though you're only interested in APPEARING to beat yourself up.


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Originally Posted by Stellakat
GM, you would still be with the latest prostitute if your wife had not found out about it. And had the strength now, to NOT put up with it and to confront you, strength she did not have before since you kept her self esteem very low.

Why keep your (very damaged by you) wife and family? Why not stay with the prostitute who loves you. That is more your caliber. She is more on your level. She loves you regardless of how you are.

Stick with the prostitute and leave the wife to be free of you.

Buy a home for you and the prostitute to live in, pay for her food, clothing, and crack. Make sure she has enough meth to be happy. You will have a simple life and will not need to make any changes in yourself.

This option would probably be best for everyone.


Stellakat, I think GM gets your point......IMO, you're making these attacks personal......

The best option would NOT be a return back to what they have already lived through, the best option would be personal recovery for both sss and GM.




Last edited by tst; 03/09/09 03:09 PM. Reason: added




Recovery began 10/07;

Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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I agree w/ Stella.

I think the kindest thing GM could do for his W is to give her her freedom.

Remove himself entirely from her life.

Quote
The best option would NOT be a return back to what they have already lived through, the best option would be personal recovery for both sss and GM.

I don't believe either one can personally recover TOGETHER.


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I am not being judgemental here. (well maybe a little)

I am however a realist. People, we human beings, hang out long term with other people who are the same caliber that we are. We hang out with people we have things in common with. We hang out with people we can communicate with. This is just what human beings do.

Why fight nature. If GM felt comfortable around prostitutes for over 26 years straight, then that is the type of woman he feels comfortable around, the type he can communicate with, the type he likes to be around, and the type he was around the majority of his married life.

There is no easy way to change this now, unless he gets a brain, psche, and heart transplant.

It is who he is.

He has chosen to spend his time, his life energy, and his money on these women for 26 years. He loves being around these types of women MORE than he loved being married. It has been his choice of who he likes to be around. It is who he prefers to be around. It is his nature to prefer these types of woman and by his actions (for years) he showed this.

Let him go and be with those who he prefers being around. That is all I am saying.




Last edited by Stellakat; 03/09/09 03:52 PM.
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It is evident to me that sadsosad is investing in Marriage coaching w/ Steve Harley & investing in going to the MB weekend the end of March WITH GM.

sss & GM currently want to reconcile their marriage and both need help in making that work. It's evident to me that this is the reason they are on the forums. Telling them to go their seperate ways may seem to make some that are posting feel better about themselves, but how is that helping them in the decision they have made to attempt recovery? (rhetorical)


Gun slinging MB style is fine if it's helping them with their stated goals. Otherwise, what's the point, other than personal attacks...





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Quote
There is no easy way to change this now, unless he gets a brain, psche, and heart transplant.


I don't disagree. I would just prefer to see it written out,
"There is no way to change this without GOD, unless he gets a brain, psche, and heart transplant".

Dunno, Just a thought.....





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Why don't we all just agree that he is pond scum, a hopeless psycopath, and belongs in jail?

Then we can get on with giving him positive advice.

I don't know, I may be stupid, but my WH knew about MB, but never cared enough to post here. And to this day, he wants to get back together, but can't be bothered to post here.

So let's support those who come here as best we can.

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Originally Posted by tst
Originally Posted by Stellakat
GM, you would still be with the latest prostitute if your wife had not found out about it. And had the strength now, to NOT put up with it and to confront you, strength she did not have before since you kept her self esteem very low.

Why keep your (very damaged by you) wife and family? Why not stay with the prostitute who loves you. That is more your caliber. She is more on your level. She loves you regardless of how you are.

Stick with the prostitute and leave the wife to be free of you.

Buy a home for you and the prostitute to live in, pay for her food, clothing, and crack. Make sure she has enough meth to be happy. You will have a simple life and will not need to make any changes in yourself.

This option would probably be best for everyone.


Stellakat, I think GM gets your point......IMO, you're making these attacks personal......

The best option would NOT be a return back to what they have already lived through, the best option would be personal recovery for both sss and GM.

Back after a day out of town with SSS.

Thanks, TST. We are here because it is Marriage Builders. It is something we both want. We re-live the agony for a large portion of every day and probably will for years. I know that I will until the day I die. It isn't necessary to make me suffer more than I am. I think Stellakat is letting her own anger out. It is likely feeling good for her to do that, but there is an unflattering term for people who inflict pain for their own pleasure or to better themselves. I really don't believe Stellakat is wanting to do that consciously, so I will leave it at that. But there must be some issues there that go beyond wanting to protect SSS. TST, I do want to email you and will set that up later.

I have read all the many posts since we have been gone today, and there are only a couple of things I want to clear up.

First was Marshmallow's comment that I should do the right thing and "set SSS free" in her words. SSS found that quite offensive. She does not need me to "set her free". She is quite capabable of doing that all by herself and will, if it ends up seeming to be the best choice for her. She is a grown woman.

Second was the more emotionally charged question about religion and church. To answer that, SSS and I have been to that church once, since all this happened. She chose it, because she has friends there, and by "non-judgmental" it means that it is dedicated to social equality and includes gays and other groups that have been discriminated against. SSS is very involved in rights organizations. It does not mean that it believes that people are free of moral structure, can sin without repercussions, or does not follow the tenets of Christianity. She grew up with a religious background. She merely does not like churches particularly and finds many of them quarrelsome and divisive. She feels like she can communicate with God without going to a particular building and sitting with a group of like minded people. That's all.

As for me, I grew up without any allegiance to religion, and part of my problem has been the lack of a moral code or fear of retribution in an afterlife. I had a childhood with a bad marriage and a lot of yelling and shouting, and I found the books of Alan Watts, who taught comparative religion and was an expert in the Eastern Religions when I was 20. The Buddhist concept of God was a relief to me and helped me adjust to my childhood and meet the challenges of adulthood...or so I thought. But the lack of a moral code with defined consequences was the worst possible thing for me when it came to marriage, especially after knowing only the awful marriage that I grew up in. In a way, Alan Watts was a contributing factor in my reprehensible behavior. After all, if everyone is God, then it doesn't really matter what you do, right? I now understand that this is a prescription for chaos and sorrow. Though both of my parents were non practicing Jews, I find now that the teachings of Jesus are the most meaningful, and the best, guide for personal and social behavior for me. I do not believe in evangelism and think it is wrong for people to try to get other to believe the same way they do. My beliefs do not make me a Christian in the sense that I worship the birth and death of Jesus as divine events, though I can't exclude the possibility, but I very much believe that following his teachings can lead me, and everyone else, out of the darkness. If I had followed that, I would not be in the situation I find myself in, and I would not have committed such terrible sins against SSS and against myself. So, I want to go to that church more often. I believe that a sense of redemption and self-discovery and healing lies there.

So, the answer regarding spirituality is YES. That is the key I believe to my recovery and growth as a human being.

I know in my heart that I have undergone a transformation, and that I can follow the MB principles and incorporate them into myself. If I were a betting man, and didn't know anything but the history of who I have been, I wouldn't give a plug nickle for my chances or for the safety of SSS. I can see why Stellakat and and everyone would agree that I am simply a bad bet and that SSS is better off getting rid of me. But here is the thing: I do know who I am and what is in my heart, and I would take that bet in a heartbeat. But I feel enormous pain, and it is not necessary to rub it in. The real question is whether SSS can grow to accept me as a different person and somehow look around what I have done and been all these years. Can SHE deal with the past and trust me for the future enough to make that bet along with me? If MB can help us stay together and find love and redemption and trust, wouldn't that be something? People should be pulling for us, not trying to discourage us. That is all I have to say, I guess.




FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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Originally Posted by believer
I don't know, I may be stupid, but my WH knew about MB, but never cared enough to post here. And to this day, he wants to get back together, but can't be bothered to post here.

It's a pity your H won't come here, Believer.

While I don't know everything about your sitch, I don't think your XH had multiple A's.

In GM's case, this isn't a one time mistake, it was a way of life for him....for 26 years.

GM reminds me of my dear sister's XH.

In almost every way.

And while I love happy endings and rejoice whenever someone truly repents, I don't believe MB will help this couple...GM's character flaws go too deep.


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Originally Posted by GreenMile
The real question is whether SSS can grow to accept me as a different person and somehow look around what I have done and been all these years.

This says it all.

Quote
Can SHE deal with the past

You want your wife to be the one who deals with the past? You seem to WANT to sincerely make the effort, but...frankly she has every right to run and not look back...


One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger

I will not spend my life this way.
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Originally Posted by GreenMile
The real question is whether SSS can grow to accept me as a different person and somehow look around what I have done and been all these years. Can SHE deal with the past and trust me for the future enough to make that bet along with me?

Talk is cheap....you can talk all you want BUT can you walk the walk of a changed man? Can you be the changed man? Can you make that sort of life change? Can you accept the fact that it may take a very long time until your faithful wife can see you in a new light? Can you give her a reason to see you differently?

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GM-


Are you willing to spend the rest of your life showing SSS that you have changed-even if she never does completely trust you?

If you can, then I'd say you have a chance.


johnstwin-

"I may not know what the future holds, but I know who holds my future." -Martin Luther

Remarried my FXH 25 years to the day of our first M. God is so good-and sometimes so unexpected!

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Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Originally Posted by believer
I don't know, I may be stupid, but my WH knew about MB, but never cared enough to post here. And to this day, he wants to get back together, but can't be bothered to post here.

It's a pity your H won't come here, Believer.

While I don't know everything about your sitch, I don't think your XH had multiple A's.

In GM's case, this isn't a one time mistake, it was a way of life for him....for 26 years.

GM reminds me of my dear sister's XH.

In almost every way.

And while I love happy endings and rejoice whenever someone truly repents, I don't believe MB will help this couple...GM's character flaws go too deep.

I hope you are wrong. It was a sad, and sick substitute for a cold marriage that I had created. I had a prior marriage that lasted almost 10 years. We were together for 8 years, from 1970-1978, then separated for two years for her career. Finally It ended in a career move for her to NYC in 1980 after she finished veterinary medical school. Never once was there infidelity in that relationship until the separation. Cheating with sex workers is not part of a compulsive personality disorder for me. The dynamics of what happened are far more complicated than you know. I was still angry about the first marriage ending, because my first wife chose grad school in small animal medicine in New York City, rather than re-uniting with me. It was immature, but I was angry. The anger spilled over into my marriage with SSS. When I became domineering and unloving, the more she cut me off, and then the angrier I got. Still, I had every opportunity to fix it in counseling, and I never did. I was afraid to face my own demons. I squandered several chances to fix our marriage, the first time with a world renowned marriage counselor, and chose instead to cheat with a prostitute. It seemed much "easier" than actually dealing with my anger and allowing SSS into my heart. It is a very sad story all the way around. And completely unnecessary. All those many years, all I had to do was treat her with respect as an equal and meet her emotional needs, and cease my independent behavior and none of this would have happened. None of it. It is 100% my fault, but I am not a psychopath or a compulsive sex addict. That is why I believe that MB can still save our marriage. It is far more likely to succeed than anyone here realizes. I believe it is greater than 50:50. The question is really whether that much injury can be healed enough to allow a loving marriage to develop. It will be easy for me not to cheat. Easy. It is not a compulsion or something that I have no control over. The fact that SSS and I are so compatible together is very important, I think. We really do enjoy being with and doing things together. And she is the sweetest person on earth. It also is true that she has a tremendous libido that I had conveniently convinced myself had shut down. Boy, was I wrong! The truth is that she had to be cold to me to protect herself. I understand that now. I would have done the same thing to me if I had been her. I was an a**hole. Pure and simple. It would have been insane for her to have sex with me the way I treated her.

I have not told that story yet. It is not a rationalization or some form of protecting myself. It is what happened. SSS would agree. I was very messed up, but not in the way you think. Now that my anger is long gone, and I am learning about the way love is built and works, I understand that I had placed a governor on my emotions practically the day we got married. I simply would not let SSS put deposits in my love bank early on. She tried everything to make me happy, but I was not open to it. And I mistreated her. She responded by putting up a wall to protect herself. God, I wish I could go back and fix it. It would have all turned out differently. This is the story that must be understood in order to know what our chances of recovery really are.

Last edited by GreenMile; 03/10/09 01:02 AM.

FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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Originally Posted by cinderella
Originally Posted by GreenMile
The real question is whether SSS can grow to accept me as a different person and somehow look around what I have done and been all these years. Can SHE deal with the past and trust me for the future enough to make that bet along with me?

Talk is cheap....you can talk all you want BUT can you walk the walk of a changed man? Can you be the changed man? Can you make that sort of life change? Can you accept the fact that it may take a very long time until your faithful wife can see you in a new light? Can you give her a reason to see you differently?

You have it exactly, Cinderella. The answer is yes. I am absolutely certain. And I can accept that could take many, many years before SSS can totally trust me again. No one knows me better than her. She has known me for 30 years. If you ask her, she will tell you honestly that I am not the same person I was. She sees the change in me. But I learned to be such a great liar over the years that in order to protect herself, she simply must mistrust me now, even though she sees the transformation in me. The trust will take a long time, and it may never be absolute. But I am not away at work during the day, and I have given up my most of my organizations and activities, and I am easing out of the rest of them as quickly as possible. I have abandoned independent behavior, and I am with her ALL the time. She accompanies me whenever I must go anywhere. That is the way it should have always been. It seems odd to us right now, but that is the way a real marriage should be. Yes, I can give her many reasons to see me differently. That is my job to make sure that is always the case.


FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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Originally Posted by karmasrose
Originally Posted by GreenMile
The real question is whether SSS can grow to accept me as a different person and somehow look around what I have done and been all these years.

This says it all.

Quote
Can SHE deal with the past

You want your wife to be the one who deals with the past? You seem to WANT to sincerely make the effort, but...frankly she has every right to run and not look back...

Those are her words. She told me that. I know I can do what needs to be done. But even if I do everything right and become the perfect husband, if she cannot deal with the past and what I did to injure her, then it is over. Of course she has every right to run and not look back. There is not a person on earth who would tell her otherwise, including me. No need to be frank about it. That is like saying, "I'll be frank about it. Water is wet." I'll tell you how I feel. I feel like I am racing against the clock. I have to keep ahead of her decision to run. I have to work this program and be so good at it, that she cannot pull the trigger on that decision. The rate of my success must exceed the rate at which she loses patience.
If I slow down to look back, its the ballgame. I have this one opportunity to win back the love of my life, the person who was always there for me when I was always lying and never there for her. Its do or die for me. This is the two minute drill. I am four points down with 1:30 on the clock and 85 yards to go.


FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by GreenMile
I am trying to change who I have been. Yes, I don't like to think about who that was. I guess that is running from it in a way, because it is uncomfortable. Somehow, I don't see that avoidance as aberrant. Under a microscope, if you place a little vinegar on one end of the slide, an amoeba will move away from it, because it is uncomfortable. But that mirror is everywhere I go. I look in it and see someone who had some very bad characteristics that have been catastrophic for my marriage and to SSS. I see some other characteristics that have been very good for a career in medicine. Empathy, honesty to a fault (except in my marriage), ethical, except in my marriage, persistence, determination, hard work ethic, humor, and a great analytical ability, except for analyzing myself. Everyone loved and respected me. In 24 years of practice, I was never sued, which is almost unheard of. I was great at what I did. People came to me for the answers. But in my private life, it was Jeckyll and Hyde. These days, 7 years removed from my career, I mostly see the horrible things in the mirror, and I want to go back and change myself. I want a mulligan. Like in the Shawshank Redemption, when Red told the parole board, "I want to go back there talk some sense into that young man, but I can't. He is long gone. And all there is left is this tired old man." I wish I could go back. I really do. But I have the capacity to remake myself...and to compensate SSS, and to take care of her and make her safe. That is what I intend to do.

Pre-A days this would have rolled off me but post A it just screams sympathy. Perhaps you didn't mean it that way or perhaps as a BS I'm now hypersensitive. My FWH would tell me things like this too and guess what...I didn't care.

So you have a hard work ethic...yippie...your treated your wife like dirt. So you are honest with others...yippie...you lied to your wife like a dog. So everyone loved and respected you...yippie...do they even KNOW the real you and the bs your wife lived with?

Were you all bad GM? Probably not. Having a strong work ethic or a good sense of humor are good qualities but is irrelevant when you mistreat someone. You should remake yourself. You should make yourself into the man that you'd want your sons to be... not only for sss but for yourself.

Yes. All true. I do get this.


FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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Originally Posted by johnstwin
GM-


Are you willing to spend the rest of your life showing SSS that you have changed-even if she never does completely trust you?

If you can, then I'd say you have a chance.

Thanks, JT. That is very encouraging, because that is exactly how I see it, and the answer is yes. That is why I also think we have a chance. I know the challenge and the frustration that lies ahead as far as the eye can see.


FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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GM -

I posted this to the Mrs. and am posting it to you now -

SSS -

Have you checked out the RecoveryNation spouses' site?

I really think hubby may be a SA.

A lot of addicts find themselves as addicts because they've lost a control component in their life and they find SOMETHING that they CAN control and fixate on it. A person who suffers emotional/physical abuse WILL usually try to find something that they CAN control and because they want to overcompensate for the pain, the abuse; whatever it is that gives them relief. Food, sex, drugs, alcohol etc. When someone is hurt and in pain, the human being in them wants to find a fix. And alot of times its not a 'healthy' fix. How many times have you heard of a bulimic who suffered 'other' abuse and felt so out of control, they found that food is something they can control. And control it, they do!

Us humans have a desire to stay in control and fix our pains. When control is 'taken' from us or someone 'hurts' us, even as a child, we seek out comfort. And sometimes the brain disconnects and self-preservation is paramount and our comfort fix is destructive. And we set 'patterns' that follow us for a life.

Id say that somewhere, somehow and to some degree, GM has suffered some pain/loss of control at some point in his life. Probably when he was young and didnt have the tools to 'fix' whatever issue it was. Maybe an over controlling parent. An absent parent (emotionally/physically)Maybe he witnessed violence or abuse. Or was victimized himself. He learned to 'fix' himself thru self-gratification. And when a stressor pops up in life, he reverts to his old comforts.

When an alcoholic is feeling down-they reach for a drink. When a drug addict is feeling bad-they reach for their drug. When a sex addict is feeling down, they reach for their fix. They dont want to reach for their destructive fix but its the ONLY way they know to solve their feelings. And their issue is finding NEW and healthy ways to comfort themselves.

Ive dealt with an addict. Eventually, hopefully you can separate the addict from his addiction. You will never be able to fix an addict---but you CAN help fix a person that SUFFERS from an addiction. When a person can learn to fix THEMSELVES, the addiction can be solved. Focus on the PERSON who needs fixing. GM will have to find a way to fix HIMSELF and the addiction can be controlled. His BRAIN is the part that needs the fixing and the rest can fall into place. Also, I found that getting mad at the addiction was more productive than getting mad at the person! GM may feel like we're attacking HIM when itd be better if we attacked his PROBLEM. Attack the sex addiction, not GM personally.

Of course, I STILL don't have my psychiatry credentials.

HUGS to you and GM.




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It isn't addiction to sex. It is really addiction to control. I don't like to be out of control or have situations that I cannot control. I am realizing that my life has been ruined by that need to control or manipulate the world to be advantageous to me and be the leader in interpersonal relationships. To be the "decider", as Bush would say. I think that is what all those hookers and the affair were about. Basically, I called the shots in those situations. I could decide. In my marriage, it was clear that SSS was not going to go along with me controlling the marriage or circumstances. She wanted a real partnership. But I think you may be right. It is kind of an addiction. Even when I used drugs, it was to control my mood or state of mind. That is almost certainly the demon that has taken down my marriage and caused so much risky behavior and destruction to SSS. I have always been most uncomfortable in situations over which I had no control. Not like a mean despot or dictator, but just "in control". I need help to overcome this and it is also very harmful to recovery, because I am no longer in control. I thought I had given up all semblance of controlling behavior, but I still have this remnant of wanting to control the recovery, wanting to MAKE SSS heal, wanting to manipulate the world I live in so that we can be happy, and so that my feelings of helplessness and overwhelming remorse can be made to GO AWAY.

But alas. I have no control over all of that. It will never go away. All I can do is be someone who SSS can believe in and be a partner with and who dedicates his every waking moment to healing her. I cannot do that and be in control of the situation. I am beginning to understand that I simply have to give up that craving to be on top of every situation. Faith in a higher power and surrendering control is the only door open, and it is closing fast. It is nothing less than the death of ego, itself.

Huge hugs back at ya, Believer. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for pulling for the both of us.

Last edited by GreenMile; 03/14/09 06:23 PM.

FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
Joined: Nov 2007
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Originally Posted by GreenMile
....It is really addiction to control. I don't like to be out of control or have situations that I cannot control. I am realizing that my life has been ruined by that need to control or manipulate the world to be advantageous to me and be the leader in interpersonal relationships. To be the "decider", as Bush would say.

...... Even when I used drugs, it was to control my mood or state of mind.

...... I have always been most uncomfortable in situations over which I had no control. Not like a mean despot or dictator, but just "in control".


Sounds like a perfect description of a typical addict.






Recovery began 10/07;

Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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