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Monc,
drop the exposure bomb, soon as you can. Even if it doesn't save your marriage, at least the family will KNOW the divorce is not exclusively (or even mostly) your fault, but hers.


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None whatesover from what you have told us. Unless you threatened her or called her repeatedly after she asked you to stop, this isn't harrassment. Sounds like someone is just pissed off because you made them look bad, which is somewhat the point.

It also isn't defamation, which is a term that is used all too loosely, and it sounds like you may hear it soon. If it's true, it's not defamatory - remember that.

-Edit: sorry I guess I wasn't on the last page like I thought.

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A reply to one of my e-mails:

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No. and no. and NO.

I want a divorce.

I want to be free.

I want you to let me go.

How is that vague?




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A therapist, whom I respect very much once told me this:

When considering a divorce, a lot of times it just doesn't happen because one person is willing to hold on to the marriage for better or for worse and even though the other person says they are done they'll usually continue on. If the other party isn't fully "in it to win it though" their sword will come back out and it will start all over again. This sometimes even results in the opposite person wanting to leave the marriage, and maybe now the other one wants to keep it going, creating a circle of bad behaviour in the marriage that may never correct itself.

There's only two ways to break the circle. Someone has to put down their sword, or you both decide to go your seperate ways.

In my opinion Monc, I'm having a hard time determining exactly what it is you are wanting to do. If you wish to persue the marraige, then persue (cautiously) - but if you are wanting to walk away, it seems like the writing is right there on the wall.


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I want the marriage.

She had an affair and now thinks I'm not "IT" because she feels more strongly about the other guy now.


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Monc,

Beware that there is a part of a BH mind which says, "I will win her back and then get rid of the cheating bit**ch on my terms."

It's a battle that really isn't worth fighting.

You're pursuing a cheating and lying woman. Why? You haven't answered that question. You say this isn't normally her. But it is. This IS who she is. She is showing you her true colors. She's a cheater who puts no value on vows or marriage or family.

If she wants a divorce, then why doesn't she file?

And move back into your house/apartment. You have as much a right to be there as she does and you'll be making a statement that you're not going to make things easy or will be going down without a fight.

And I'd confront OM. I like the idea of going to his restaurant when he's working and announcing to everyone that he's doing your wife.

Embarrass him. Humiliate him. Regardless of whether or not you keep her. Do it.

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The OM is hours away and I know not his where abouts.

Or I'd have probably kicked his [censored] by now just in frustration.


Why do I want her back? Because those vows and promises mattered to me. Even if she's broken them.

I'm a unique case. She was my first everything.

I've got a great deal of emotions tied up in her.

Letting that go...I'm trying to fight.

Though you are right about some things. She IS this person but I see that now and I want to be the one to help her be better than this.

That is what being her husband is to me... It's hard but I can only fight for her even when she doesn't want me.

Before this she wasn't a lying cheating woman.

I promised 60 years to her...

As to filing(said last night she would since I won't): She claims she was going to give me a year to work this out but now she's going to file when she has time. The year was to fence-sit and see who she wanted. If I'd please her but at the same time she was indulging in the other guy...so basically stringing me along without realizing it.


Last edited by Monc; 03/10/09 07:16 PM.

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She reminds me of my ex-fiance. I started dating him in high school; he was 3 years older than me. He was a manipulator. At one point, he said to me "I don't think you're mature enough for me. I'm going to give you 6 months. If you're not grown up enough by then, I'll just have to leave you and find someone else." Of course, I begged him not to leave me, to give me one more chance. It was the most humiliating moment of my life and I've hated myself ever since; it was so traumatic that I remember it exactly, like it was yesterday.

Don't do that to yourself.

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After calling the OM mother. The mother threatened to cut him off financially for his college.

My WW called me telling me that she would do anything I wanted down to sex slave if I would never call his mother again...that she'd not talk to him for five years to protect him.

I told her I didn't want her to be my slave, I wanted my wife.

She said she'd do anything and any list could be written except divorce was absolute...

She said I had finally broken her.

She said she'd go to her family and tell them how much of a "whore" she was.

What the hell?

She's an amazing actor by the way. Although I try to believe her at all times.

The OM who I being a emotional/intellectual person myself, am sympathizing with him. I don't want to destroy his future career. Is Exposure basically coercion or is it meant to just break their fantasy down?

Last edited by Monc; 03/10/09 08:42 PM.

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is it meant to just break their fantasy down?

That's its primary use...

Fantasies don't like daylight...

Or truth...

Or reality...

All of which exposure brings to the fight.

She's going to want to negotiate some way to keep OM in the loop. The only thing you can live with is total unconditional surrender. Nothing less will stand a chance of real recovery.

Hold out for "Whatever it takes for as long as it takes." The "I'll do anything if...(if you don't interfere with my affair)" line is still quite a ways off from what you need from her to know she is ready to work with you at recovery. And you certainly don't want to trade for anything you might get from her for a divorce unless YOU are ready to divorce her and want to just take everything in the process. In that case just write everything down for her and have her sign it over to you.

She's willing right now to do ALMOST anything to get you to stop interfering with her fantasy. You now have to wait for her to end the fantasy and be ready to give you whatever you need to stay married to her if you want to recover your marriage. Raise THAT bar as high as you can dream...Do NOT settle for the sake of peace...

Oh, and the divorce thingy?

All WWs say that when exposure happens. "I was gonna work this out with you but NOW you've blown any chance you might have had." or "I was thinking about trying to work on our marriage but after what you did I could never forgive you..." (as if what they did was not wrong and therefor requires no forgiveness) or "There's no way I could ever trust you again..." (I really like that one. The WW can't trust her BH because he fought for her instead of letting her ruin his life and hers as well.)

Ignore all of it, Monc. It's all just the babbling of an insane person.

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Originally Posted by Monc
I'm a unique case. She was my first everything.

I've got a great deal of emotions tied up in her.

This shows why you want to fight so badly. Trust me, she's disposeable. You just don't know any better. You've been driving a Pinto this whole time. There's lots of Mercedes and Ferraris out in the world. You don't know any better because you've been with just a Pinto this whole time.

Originally Posted by Monc
Though you are right about some things. She IS this person but I see that now and I want to be the one to help her be better than this.

This is where you're very mistaken. YOU can't do a darn thing to change her. Not one single thing. SHE can change her.

Originally Posted by Monc
Before this she wasn't a lying cheating woman.

She was. You just didn't know it. Now OM is in the picture. He'll get cheated on too. And then the next guy. She'll likely marry several times.

Originally Posted by Monc
As to filing(said last night she would since I won't): She claims she was going to give me a year to work this out but now she's going to file when she has time. The year was to fence-sit and see who she wanted. If I'd please her but at the same time she was indulging in the other guy...so basically stringing me along without realizing it.

So lawyer up and be absolutely merciless. Leave her with nothing.

You don't understand that you're in a way and will be fleeced if you don't prepare.

And what she said to you is pretty standard wayward garbage.

Keep exposing. Move back into your apartment or wherever you lived before with her. It's your home as well. Force her to get papers. If she leaves, then file for abandonment.

Seriously, you don't know better. It's mainly your age. There's a wonderful world of women who you could start with a clean slate and who have morals and who won't cheat.

Believe me, if she came back you'd always wonder about her. You won't love her the same way she did before unless she really, really changed and that's no guarantee. Many a BS on these boards can't get past the cheating.

They go through predictable stages in recovery. First it's the elation of the return. Resentment and anger kick in afterwards when reality hits. Even SH says that the biggest threat to a marriage in recovery is the BS.

It's happening to Krazy on this board, who is 3 years into recovery and just can't get past the cheating.

And she broke her vows and gave you one of the few biblically justifiable excuses to divorce.

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Monc, I for one give up.
I can't fathom at this point why you haven't done the same.

When do you say enought=!!! And move on?

Why not wipe the slate clean and start again. Admit that you made a horrible choice for a W and leave it at that?

All Blessings,
Jerry


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Mark:

Quote
She's willing right now to do ALMOST anything to get you to stop interfering with her fantasy. You now have to wait for her to end the fantasy and be ready to give you whatever you need to stay married to her if you want to recover your marriage. Raise THAT bar as high as you can dream...Do NOT settle for the sake of peace...

So your saying I have to wait for her to beg to stay in the marriage? And raise the bar she has to obtain to appease me?


Shine, you give good advice and berate often. You're useful and fracking annoying.

Why I don't wipe the slate? As I joked with a friend...I'd have to learn how to date like a 16 year old but only be 26. Seriously though. I. Made. A. Promise. To. Her. That is who I am.

Others, not naming is not thanking you too.

Baron, I've loved your advice entirely all the way through.

I'm just...I love my pinto, what can I say? See...if I can recover this I'm fairly sure I can prevent a cheating again because this site will prepare me with important tools I wish I had at the beginning. And if she does, well I know what to do right away to stomp it into the dirt again.

Marriage should also require "TRUE" marriage counseling. Not that [censored] they gave us about compatibility. They need to teach how to change with each other like this site does.

Not blaming myself(skeptical):She wanted more excitement in her life but I was boring, a computer geek. I could have gone dancing once in a while or do something crazy and I think she'd have been good.



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But what do I do with this "Desperation" from her?

She will bring it up again and I can only dodge so many times. I don't know what to answer her with.

Because right now it looks like she's "anchoring" into him.

Last edited by Monc; 03/10/09 09:58 PM.

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So your saying I have to wait for her to beg to stay in the marriage? And raise the bar she has to obtain to appease me?
I'm saying that right now she isn't worth wasting time on and if she does decide she wants to return to you you need to get a marriage out of it that is above reproach, beyond suspicion and she needs to become your dream spouse.

Minimum: counseling with a pro marriage counselor, better still Steve or Jennifer, a MB weekend, an agreement to follow all MB concepts for the rest of your lives together and maybe a post-nup agreement that says that if she ever cheats again you get every marital asset and she gets 50% of the bills as a minimum.

She won't likely ever agree to such things, but that has to be your starting point. If you begin at perfect and negotiate from there you might get something of value in the end. If you settle for her crawling back to you because she is out of options and let her treat you like second best, you will just be biding time until the next OM comes along to make her panties damp...

What I'm suggesting to you is that if I were you I would follow JL's advice anyway and find someone real, committed and faithful. Baring that, only accept forever faithful from your WW.

You will know when she is remorseful and repentant. She won't have to say it because it will be her actions that show it to be true. If she says "I'm sorry but..."(Fill in the blank with anything other than "I'm a cheating lying sl^t and not worth spit") and the remorse is only for getting caught. Broken people act broken. Any remaining self serving actions (or language) mean they aren't broken, just sorry they got caught.

Too many BHs take their WW back just because she agrees to come home. They sulk and cry over OM, withhold sex, whine about their lot in life and spend their time making their husbands wish they had let them go.

Aim at the moon and you might not hit it. Aim at a hole in the ground, you'll hit it every time (unless you're using a putter) :RollieEyes: , but it will never shine like the moon...

Don't accept a mud hole for fear of never reaching the moon...

OH, in case you need reminding, none of this applies now. You don't tell her that while she is still running away. Considering your lack of following advice so far I thought I might need to add that... skeptical

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Let me see if I understand this, she'll do anything you want just as long as you keep quite until she's able to divorce you? Nope, sorry!

Sounds like you hit a nerve with OM mother. She's going to cut him off finically? The dude is probably ready to bail thinking that this isn't worth it. Or he told his mom that he ended it and their keeping their relationship DEEP underground from her. If you get wind that he's still seeing her and you tell Mom, not only is her "little boy" still sleeping with a married woman she was also lied to. She's try to keep you quite.

Most of the people you've talked to state that they don't want to be involved. Well, people are curious by nature. Their gonna ask her what's going on. She probably spun up this evil image of you and now they're seeing a different side of the story. AND they can SEE that she seeing someone else. Who's more believable now?

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The advice I give you is based on the very hard lessons I've learned at 36. I was an idiot when it came to women when I was growing up, but the worst was in my 20s. I fell madly in love with all the wrong kind of women. I had "White Knight Syndrome" and saw myself as the romantic Knight in Shining armor with a need to save the damsels in distress. The first really serious girlfriend I had was hung up on an ex of hers who was in jail and (unbeknownst to me) was trying to quit drugs cold turkey. I had no idea.

I at least had the presence of mind to let her go.

The next woman I met was seeing me and another guy at the same time. I didn't know. She went on to marry the other guy. I was MADLY in love with this woman and thought she was "The One".

She later contacted me after marrying this other guy and we had an emotional affair for a while afterwards. I was still in love with her when she contacted me and her unhappiness was something I hung on to and I had restored hope that she would leave this man and go with who she was originally intended to be with. I seen now how wrong it was for us to talk, but my romantic notions overrode everything else at that time.

The next woman I got serious with was really attractive, but a mental case. She was bipolar. She was very exciting and I wanted to marry her. I'm soooooo glad I didn't. She's on her fourth husband right now and is in her early 30s and about to split from the fourth.

Then came my now exww. She seemed normal at first. She was young, though, which in hindsight was probably our greatest problem. I am 7 years older than her and was well past the need to go to clubs and dancing, etc. She has a very strong need for attention and really needs a man who will be at her side all the time because she has anxiety attacks on a regular basis and it is very normal for her to suffer from one massive medical scare a year which usually turns out to be not as serious as originally thought. When we were married she thought she had skin cancer, breast cancer, IBS, Krohn's Disease, and dozens of anxiety attacks. All of them were taken seriously by me and they were nerve wracking each time, but a sense of "Cry Wolf" started creeping in.

She cheated on me when I was deployed for war and went out with 5 guys in the two weeks before I came home.

My "sins" as a husband sound similar to yours. Wasn't romantic enough. Didn't like to go dancing. Let my mom express her opinion too much.

The faults are easy for her to focus on. She overlooks the times I gave up flights and the career sacrifices I made to be at her side during all her medical scares. And there is absolutely no way she can say I wasn't an involved father. I helped in every aspect of taking care of the kids and would often stay with them and watch them while she "ran errands".

I had my moments when she was sick where I would ask myself, "Why did I marry someone who can't handle stress or is so sick all the time?"

But I'd always remind myself of "For better or for worse".

I too wanted to forgive her infidelity and restore our marriage nor did I see my alleged sins as a husband as things that couldn't be addressed, but the reality is that I wasn't the one that was broken. She was and still is and still has that "woe is me" victim mentality.

I've already heard the stories of the guy she's with who does the same exact stuff I use to do. I've heard how he helps her out of bed and down the stairs because of her latest ailment (back pain from a car accident that her boyfriend was in as well).

I was even told by people who know them both that he's a good guy, but they feel sorry for him and think she'll leave him before he leaves her.

All I care about is that he treats the kids well, which is good.

In the course of my healing I've learned hard lessons about women and see very clearly now that I settled in every single relationship I was in. I didn't seek women who were mature and sought women who had emotional voids. I felt good about filling the emotional voids for them and patted myself on the back for it and for "being a good guy".

What I've learned is that settling is not an option. I've learned that women in their 30s are awesome to date because most of the ones I've met are mature. I've learned that if you end it with one, you can easily find someone else after some time.

And the best thing that has happened to me in my personal life is that I've met a woman who is emotionally stable and who supports herself completely and puts zero pressure on me about anything. We're both nerds and revel in our nerdness. She watches Battlestar Galactica and has discussions with me about who she thinks is a Cylon and where the plots are headed.

She is my lobster. smile

But I suffered a lot of heartache to find her.

So what I'm saying to you in my advice comes from a long history of dating the wrong kind of women. Your wife is just that kind. She married young, which is a very common thing to find in wayward wives on these boards. So she wants to find what's out there and what she thinks she's missing out on. You're lucky you have no kids with her. What you're likely to learn is that there's better and more compatible women for you out in the world, but you're stuck loving your Pinto.

This isn't to minimize the pain you feel. It's very real. It hurts worse than anything short of the death of a child. But you WILL get past it and will be grateful you're not with her anymore. Trust me on that.

I was just as madly in love with my "lost love" when I was 26. Crazy mad in love with romantic notions. Never thought I'd love like that again. The truth is that I haven't loved like that again, but that's because I'm older now and see that romantic notions can cover up reality. So instead of images of rainbows and butterflies flying with bunnies playing on grassy fields while holding hands, I focus more on important stuff like "what do I have in common with her?" and "does she support herself" and "is she a drama queen or not"?

She was your first everything. I get that. I completely understand the intesity of that emotion.

But I can say, with near certainty, that you'll be glad to have let her go and will see her, after some time, for who she really is once you've had time to heal.

You have nothing to lose by going to a Plan B after you're done exposing. Nothing to lose at all since you're on the path to divorce right now as it is. There's no more powerful a motivator as the fact that there is nothing left to lose. The fact is that she is lost. You have nothing to lose by following the advice you're given here which seems counter-intuitive, but you won't regret having done it when you look back.

You will look back and be glad you exposed and did it properly, regardless of her return. You should be talking to a lawyer right now about an Alienation of Affection lawsuit to bring against OM and possibly a Civil Suit for damages caused by adultery (heard about this being possible in Texas).

Cliches have truth to them, and there is no more truth than "there's plenty of fish in the sea".

So let this one go. Heal. Then go find your lobster.

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Monc, you can clearly see exposure is having an effect. It IS working. Her reaction to it is evidence that you have hit the target and caused damage to her fantasy. Awesome! But there's more work to do here.

She's still looking for a way to keep the OM without destroying everything else in her life. If you cave in now, she's just going to take her A even further underground. It's not so much waiting for her to beg to come back. It's more about showing her what her choices are, and allowing HER to make them. Through exposure and plan A, the better choice will clearly be the M. But be forewarned, waywards don't often make the better choice. Either way, it MUST be her choice or she will never be fully committed to the M - she'll always be looking for a way to keep the OM (this one or another one) around only this time she'll be craftier and better at keeping info away from you.

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Originally Posted by Monc
After calling the OM mother. The mother threatened to cut him off financially for his college.

The Exposure Bomb seems to be working. See how the response had changed after the exposure has had some time to sink in? I suggest that it would have been even more effective if done earlier.


Originally Posted by Monc
Is Exposure basically coercion or is it meant to just break their fantasy down?

It's a means to end the fantasy.

BTW - you are NOT responsible for the consequences suffered by the OM! It was his choice to engage in an A with your WW that led to this situation and the possible damage to his career.

Also, you should get into the habit of recording those conversations with your WW. Start a journal about your interactions as well. And protect your finances. Remember, while she is in wayward mode, your WW is an ENEMY to your M, and WILL take steps to destroy the M, and YOU, if she thinks it's to her benefit.



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Worth repeating and committing to memory:
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BTW - you are NOT responsible for the consequences suffered by the OM! It was his choice to engage in an A with your WW that led to this situation and the possible damage to his career.

Everyone, can you give him a list of demands he needs to put in effect? For starters, you need to MOVE BACK INTO YOUR HOME!

TODAY!

You have GOT to get that control back.


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