thanks BC! I feel like it was too! I really feel like I can move forward, not that I haven't been doing that in regards to my recovery, but forward in a R...it's a weight that has been lifted!

((((LA))))


Thank you! You have always been good to me!

Yes, I did know that's what I was doing and felt like that was the only way I was going to figure out what was wrong.

It felt good to figure it out and I was trying to avoid it by getting away from the house, hoping that he would be gone when I got back from eating with the kids...

Today, I'm glad that he wasn't, becasue I wouldn't have figured it out.

I know that I posted that wrong, wasn't clear on that part...I told him that's what he needed to do for me when we were M'ed so that we could recover...that's what I was looking for then...not today...it was his job then, but not today...I'm responsible for that and even as difficult as last night was...I'm proud that I did it...

I did what I needed to for me...


I was thinking about this today before you posted...I was always good enough, that was his stuff that HE was dealing with...his fear of rejection perhaps, his insecurities, whatever...my part was dancing with him...and continuing to dance with him, even when it wasn't okay for me...becasue I had my own stuff...which was a result of his stuff...

He would cheat, I would feel rejected, abandoned, and hurt...I did things to "make" him love me even when I didn't want to do it, my stuff...worked for a minute, made me feel better for a minute...but then back to square one...he'd cheat again in one form or fashion and the process would repeat...

In the meantime, I became addicted to the rollercoaster but the rollercoaster didn't feel so good and when I wanted to change the dance...he didn't...no could of's, would of's, should of's...it just is...now that I have acceptance of what was and what is...I've questioned myself on forgiveness again...

Have I truely forgiven him for EVERYTHING that he's done?

in a lot of ways I think that I have...and we've talked about this on here before or maybe James' thread...I have no desire to what to hurt him...no desire to need him to feel MY pain ...that left me along time ago...

But some part of me wishes and hopes that he's not happy and won't be...part of me hopes that he one day HE TRUELY REALIZES WHAT HE HAS DONE...like the XWS's here...

Then there's that part of me today that thinks, you need to txt him with: "I forgive you!" and leave it at that BUT I can't...Even if I have, I don't know that I want to tell him that...and that's what makes me think that I haven't...or is that just me protecting me?

I'm still at peace with it all...and I think that it was a major step in the right direction...

Oh my sponsor and I are getting together today to have a little ceremony about those feelings from yesterday...

I've printed those posts and we're going to burn then...I'm done with that!

I think you had your own private little ceremony in front of the porcelin throne last night after you finished talking to him.

It's amazing to watch your progress.

I understood what you meant...what you required of him to help you heal to recover the M...

we help each other heal, over time, in our ways...married or not.

You've helped me...you've taken help from me...and so many others...it's mutuality.

Do not discount he listened last night. Doesn't mean anything but that what you asked for was answered.

And you healed a little bit more.

Now...when you do the ceremony, will you please text YOURSELF "I forgive you!"



LA

Okay, I'm going to have to be the lone naysayer.

Not to mess with your good stuff, Rin, but WHY did you call him? WHY did you let him be a part of that? You don't need him to validate you.

You continue to open yourself to his abuse. Luckily, he didn't take it this time but he could have and where would you be today? Angry, hurt, dealing with another set back to the heart.

Please stop giving him the opportunity to knock you down. Look for other options. He is not in a position to heal HIMSELF, let alone YOU.

Stop giving him the power of Rin. YOU keep the power of Rin.

Just worried for you, girl. I hope you take my comments in the spirit they are intended.

Fox

Nay, you're comments don't bother me...


I honestly thought about exactly that before I called him...and I choice to call him anyway...the fear of him moving across the street is what made me txt him...

Where I went wrong, in my eyes, was in some way I was expecting him at first to protect me from him choices...but as I spoke it became clear that I'm the one that has to protect me...not him...

He didn't then and he won't now...old stuff...that's why I'm glad that I figured out if it was today's hurts or the past...becasue I could get those feelings again...and I can recognize that it's not today's...and do something different...

Good deal, Rin. I'm glad it turned out well. Ephiphanies can come from the oddest of circumstances.

Fox

I'm trying to get what you are saying here...


I guess I don't get it becasue I wasn't looking for him to "get it", not even looking for him to understand where I was coming from...just me speaking up and saying what I needed to...not for him but for me...

And you are right, he could have taken the opportunity I gave him and kicked me with it...but I didn't think about that part...my exact thoughts were..."Are you giving away your power?" and I thought no...

But I guess I need a refresher on what exactly is giving my power away?

Let him know that I was triggered by him being across the street from old stuff not new stuff...

The thought did cross my mind to txt him back after I threw up and let him know that I did that and that I felt better...

Thing is I don't feel the need to let him know that I feel better...none of his business...just like whether I forgive him or not...none of his business...That to me is giving my power away...

LOL...wait until he find out that I fired my lawyer...then he will think that I'm trying to get back at him for whatever he thinks I am trying to get back at him for...

This is closest.


What WERE you looking for?

Be honest with yourself......


Why did you need to say it TO HIM? Why not a journal, a counselor, a friend, or just yourself.

What are you looking for him to give to you? Or are you trying to prove something to him?

IDK, Rin.

I just feel, like me with WxH, you are waiting for something from him or continuing trying to prove that you are just FINE without him.

You give him power when you call him. You are telling him that what he does gets to you, worries you, and gets a rise out of you.


Let him know........ Again, why does he need to know?



Again...WHY!?

Do you want him to hold your hair? Or let him know that talking to him makes you sick?

I ask these things, Rin, so you look closer. Just as I still need to do. I still feel the need to prove to him that he is wrong. I fight myself on that often.

It's hard to truly let it be and not keep bringing them into our inner circle of feelings. It SHOULD mean something to them, but it doesn't.

Fox

When I first txt...when I thought oh God, what if he moves across the street...I was fearful of facing dealing with him every day and OW in front of my face...

When I called...I was looking for protection...but as I mention in the conversation he didn't protect me when we were M'ed...so I knew better...I said that I couldn't make him stop doing what he was doing and I know that I can't today...

The only thing that I know that I can change is how I response...

part of this...I do get satification that he knows that I'm doing better without him, but I don't have to tell him that...all he has to do is look at me...the house...the car...the job...I don't RUB it in his face...I just don't feel the need...

...and this...

ANd part of me, like I think of any BS is wanting a truely remorseful, not a flesh apology one day...

Now, do I expect to get that, like protection, and wanting him to do the right thing? NO, not by a long shot...

and I'm sure that you can realate to this one: I want him to own up to his responsiblities...but I can handle that in court...it would get great if he did it on his own...so what can I control there? Pushing it in court like you are...

Thing is those little parts that want those few things...that's all fantasy...just like the thought about calling him after I got sick talking to him...that's fantasy...and I'm not going there...

Sure, it would have been nice to be cared for...but that's the part that I know is not going to happen...

so I guess should I ever feel that way again...I can post...especailly if it's midnight...I just didn't think that posting would do the trick and I had to speak my peace...

I don't think that would ahve done the trick...TBH...

PM! LA! I missed your posts today!

PM...yea I did, I actually didn't make it to the bathroom...I was outside so I danced under the moon! LOL...right there in the flower bed...poor flowers... they needed the fertiziler!


LA- AH, yea I have to forgive myself before I can forgive him...just like you ahve to love yourself before you can give that love away...I'm okay with me...I'm cool...I did the best that I could with what I had at the time...I AM forgiven and POWS is forgiven...I don't NEED to tell him that...I ahve to do that for myself, not for him...just like I had to do for my SD for all the things that he did to me...it was a lot harder forgiving my SD then it was POWS.

And my sponsor and I had our little burn party...I printed the posts from last night, today, and the one other...I read them to her, we talked about it, and then went to the BBQ grill...the only part I teared up on was when I read to her that I'm a healthier mom for my precious boys...

I decided to get some lighter fluid to heat him up since he has heated me up so much in the past and told him goodbye...up in ashes in a minute...gone!

She gave me a huge, long hug and told me how proud she was on me...all of the footwork...firing my lawyer...and how much joy it has given her to watch me grow...she even teared up...

In all that talking there was only one thing that stood out in my mind that she said: "Eventually I'll stop taking HIS inventory becasue it just won't matter!"

That tells me there is work left to be done...because she's right!

OKay, after having thought about it really hard and reading up on abandonment/engulfment...recognizing a pattern in my life SINCE I've left XH...

It is not that I want/need something from XH...it is my own stuff that I need to deal with...

I don't need acceptance or approval from him...I accept/approve of myself!

I don't need him to help me heal...I can heal myself!

I have proven that I don't need him for anything...I need myself!

I am capable of taking care of myself...I AM!

FOX, I think that you being the naysayer was right in one instance...I have been rejected by him so many times that I could have been rejected by him again and could have been hurt, once again...this is me doing this to myself!

So, I have to stop that...very seldom have I talked to him about the stuff that he has done to me becasue I know that it's not going to change anything...like I said it's my responsible to heal from that...

On another note, I feel that I do have abandonment issues...which is the root of trust issues...that I ahve to overcome...remember I wrote something about waiting for the shoe to drop when I'm talking to someone...

If I like them then I'm waiting on them to "get board with me and leave" and if they like me more than I like them...I feel pressured or "engulfed"...and go the other direction...I have to find my balance in life...turn those fears into courage...

I have found a good website to help me with that...the thing is that I never realized that I had this issue...I can't call it a problem...it's just something else that I have to overcome...like breaking the addiction from XH...I have done tremendous work on myself and I just have to work on me some more...that's ok!

Had I not gone through that experience the other night/day I would not have realized what was going on with me and would have kept doing the same thing over again...

So I see where I am struggling at with dating...

Everyone has a basic need to be appreciated, valued, and loved.

When you are rejected, it sucks at you. Continuously. If you were raised to have complete confidence in yourself, you might be able to laugh it off (though not likely).

If you're like the rest of us, it eats at you all the time. Whether you see it or not. Triggering when he's across the street, IMO, is you:

• hating yourself for not being good enough
  
• wondering why someone over there is 'better' than you
• wanting to hate him for you hating yourself but 'knowing' that it's you, not him
  
• desperate to prove to HIM that you deserve better than what he did to you
  
• mad at yourself for needing to prove to him
  
• etc.
  

You may feel like you're ahead of the game, but it's pretty obvious on this side that you're not there yet. It's going to take a while to become ok with yourself, to get over your abandonment issues, shame issues, self-esteem issues.

You can do it, but don't kid yourself that you're that far improved yet.

I don't say that to make you feel bad. I just don't want you to reach a plateau and figure that, since the view is pretty good from here, you can stop digging.

When the day comes that he parks right in front of your house with his current ho, and you can look at him and say 'wow, what a lot of years I wasted on that' - THEN you'll have gotten somewhere.

ITA

I certainly don't hate myself becasue I wasn't good enough for him...I'm amazing...educated, beautiful, talents, a great mother, a hard-worker, confident, great with money, and I could go on...the fact that I wasn't good enough for him so not about me...that's about him...he's not going to find someone like me and he knows it...he's even admitted it...


She's not and will never be, nor anyone else that he choices to hook up with...

Now, I can say at one point in time, I use to think that he was healthier than me...I was completely wrong in that thinking...I haven't thought like that in years...


I really don't get this one...but here's my shot...I don't want to hate him...it's useless...a complete waste of my energy besides this does not help in creating an environment that is supportive to my kids...I made my fair share of mistakes...so be it...he did too...we just couldn't come together to work on the marriage...I was working on my stuff for years and he never thought he had a problem...it takes two!


I DO deserve better than him, any minute of the day...and I will have better than him...I do have something to prove but it's not necessarily to him...I didn't have to prove to my SD that I was going to do better than he did...I just did it...

I refused to let anyone kick me and keep me down...I will overcome...I have already overcome so much in my life...I started working on my issues in college...ACTUALLY before that...I was in IC at 12...

The only thing that I did wrong in regard to XH was pick him...I didn't get that when the IC told me that...but I do now...I actually thought that she was crazy...asking myself WHAT does she means? I know now...I get it...XH was emotionally unavailable to me from day one...didn't stop me from being with him...didn't stop me from my choices...I have no boundaries which was a result of my childhood...but as I grew I developed boundaries...one by one...things that were okay at one point in time were no longer okay for me...and I changed...this created chaos in my marriage...but I wasn't going back to where I came from...once you figure something out, there s no going back...

he wanted the person I once was and I was unwilling to BE that PERSON...that's okay...XH has a right to live his life anyway that he wants...I just don't have to be a part of it becasue I have a right to be happy and live mine the way I want...


I don't have to prove ANYTHING to him directly...he sees...he knows...he's made comments...it's just like I don't have to talk bad about XH to the kids...they are capable of making up their own mind with NO HELP from me...they see, they know, and if they don't they will...


The only thing that I agree with in this...is that I have an abandonment issue...I know where it started, age 3, I know when it was done again, age 9, and I can tell you the ways that it has been repeated during my life...when I chose XH, I set myself up for failure...okay, so I made a bad choice...wasn't my first and won't be my last...it's how we learn...

I get the opportunity to not repeat the same mistake...not pick someone who is emotional unavailable to me in the future...someone who cares for me...I just ahve to be careful not to self-sabotage...that's where I have been making my mistake...My plan...slow things down...when I experience that fear that someone is going to leave me or get bored with me...reassure myself that it's just a fantasy feeling...not real...and if they do then it wasn't meant to be anyway...they were wrong for me...

I have the MB principles and have a clear line of what I want in my future and I'm not settling until I get it...I have always been ambitious...the abuse in my childhood, led me to college, where I worked on me...the state of my M, led me to here and to Al-anon, where I worked on me...why becasue I'm worth it!!! I will never graduate from learning about myself, working on myself...

XH may have had a hold on me at some point in time, a really strong hold, but I have determination...I broke away from my SD and I have XH too...I WILL NOT REPEAT!


And I would never say that...that would mean that my kids are a mistake...the experiences that I lived were for nothing...this degrades MY life and not all of it was bad...I got alot out of it in fact...IMHO, more than he did...but that's my truth...not his...

I'm not in a hurry to figure this all out...I have my whole life to learn and grow...there opportunity around every corner...I just have to decide what to do with it...

S4B, if all that's true, then why did you become nearly obsessive over him staying across the street for 6 hours? First you say you can barely function for stressing out hour after hour of him being over there, yet here you say you're a happy, confident, self-loving person who doesn't need anyone's approval.

I don't see how those can be in the same person.

I did not say that...look on the previous page...and start reading the post over...

Barely function...OMG, no...I said that I had a heaviness in my chest...a feeling that I couldn't figure out...nothing like you are trying to describe.

personally, I felt there were some DJ in your previous post...

I apologize, I meant no disrespect, but it sure seemed like a lot more than heaviness and a feeling. I only brought it up because today you sound all chipper and great, but if you were that devastated yesterday, it's highly impossible that you cured yourself of all of it in one evening. In other words, it's still there, but buried. JMHO. Sorry to upset you.

Anyway, what I read:
The longer I sit here the more pissed off I get that he is doing his own thing and spending money here and there and not taking care of his kids...(mad at him)

My living room faces the street and even with the blinds closed I can still see their cars... (so you're looking out the window to see if you can see him)

I have a heaviness in my chest and I'm trying to figure out exactly how I feel at this moment...

I've thought about taking the kids and going grab something to eat just to get out of the house go I don't have to see them still there...(it bothers you that he's still there, so it's obviously been a while since you got home)

Why is this bothering me...is there hurt still left or is it just because he's not holding up to his responsiblities? Is it becasue he's with a new OW? Because the thougth did cross my mind I wish she knew what he did to me and that he will do it to her...(still wanting to punish someone)

For the first time in a long time I thought about my first screenname here: NeedingComfort (sounds stressed out to me)

I know that LA has said that feeling don't change...when they are called up that they can feel just the same as they have in the past...for a split second I thought I want him to hurt the way I have hurted...but that didn't seem right to me...

POWS has been there since we got home and a friend stopped by to show me his new car...he knows POWS and we talked about what's been going on in our lives...he works offshore so he touches base with me from time to time and I told him what POWS has been up too...T recognized the truck across the street...and I told T I'm so happy that I D'ed POWS...see what I would be getting...(if you're happy, why is he still taking up space in your brain?)

But I still can't pinpoint what I'm feeling right now...it's not overwhelming...usually I can identify my feelings with no trouble...this is more like how I use to feel when I was with him...it's not anxiety...and I'm not mad...it's like I'm running through all of them, not really sticking to one...it's certainly not jealousy...the fact that he's with yet another woman doesn't bother me...

What's abandonment feel like? Empty? Because POWS has certinaly done that...yea, cause I really hate him for that...that's it becasue my eyes are tearing up...I'm pissed that we've been abandoned...for someone who cares about his kids SOOOO much that he can run the roads, doing whatever he wants and we're left with ME taking care of all their needs...on my income...we're last again...selfish..good thing I am who I am...and I will not stop fighting to take care of these boys...

I use to get so mad becasue I had to take care of the boys on my own...they were with me 24/7...while he did whatever he wanted too...something don't change...

WEll, last night was a rough one but I made it through! I did end up taking the kids to go eat with the gift certs. that my mom had given them for Vday but when we got back POWS was still there...

So, I read on abandonment and what that is like...talk about having a spiritual awakening...that was the main feeling in my M for me...This internet/porn use...looking for OW on the net and hooking up with them left me in a constant state of feeling abandoned and rejected all the time...of course, this led to a drop in my self esteem which led to clinginess, which led to anger and resentment...always wondering why I was never good enough for him...

POWS stayed there until after midnight (which you know because you've been checking to see when he leaves)...I tried to go to sleep and then the thought hit me...what if he's moved over there? There's an apartment behind the neighbors house...of course this threw me into more turmoil and I txtd him...asking what was he doing? He replied with nothing why...I asked if he was just visiting and he said yea that he was fixing to leave...

Then he txtd asking what I was doing and I replied wondering if you ever consider my feelings...he asked what I meant and I said that he had no idea the hurt that he still caused me...he said that he was just trying to live his life and he was really sorry...

I said rite? If that was true then he would do something differently and that I get that part, I'm okay with that part...he asked what would I have him do differently, try me

So I called and he listened...told me that NEW OW is neighbor's good friend, that's how they met...So, I talked...and I admitted that everytime he was on the internet looking for OW I felt rejected and abandoned, that he had left us, that this was old feelings and him being over there for 6 hours brought all those feeling back up...it was a good conversation for me and he didn't get defensive, no anger, no justifications...even asked what was he suppose to do when nieghbor had invited him over for BBQ? I didn't have an answer but said that when we were M'ed he was suppose to protect me and he didn't...and I couldn't make him stop doing what he was doing...I didn't know what he was suppose to do now, but felt that admitting me feelings to him would help me...I told him that he never helped me heal from all of his crap that he did becasue he didn't listen...I told him how often I felt empty, alone, which made me anger and resentful...THIS conversation WASN'T FOR HIM but FOR ME...I didn't expect anything on his part...it was me speaking up about my stuff...I told him that I needed to admit it to him becasue I had no problems admitting it to OP...

And that was his job to help me heal...I even told him that I still didn't get why I was never god enough for him?...it was a brief conversation to be honest...it was GOOD FOR ME...he apologized again...I just said that I hear him and good nite...

After I got off the phone, to my surprise I ended up throwing up...AND AFTER I did that, I felt SOOOOO much better...like I was cleansed from all of the cr@p...after that I was able to go to bed and fall asleep...

It also occurred to be that his behavior at the end was a result of his own fear of abandonment...the complusive behaviors, the violent behavior...it just kind of all clicked together for me...

I lived in rejection with him...not just with him and his OW, of course, I'm sure that was the behavior that led to the other behaviors...THING IS I'M GREAT TODAY...I'M okay with yesterday becasue now I know why seeing him with OW bothers me...it's not today's stuff...so if those feeling come up in the future, I can recognize that IT IS old stuff and go about my happy way...knowing that I have healed from it...on my own...and in future R's I know a little bit better what to look for should I start pushing someone away or if I start feeling liek I did with POWS, it will be a HUGE red flag and I will be able to get out...

Rin, I agree with much of what cat is saying. I feel those crazy urges at times to contact WxH - it seems to be an urge from my soul, from the strength of it.

SOMETHING in me still needs SOMETHING from him to let this go. I don't know what it is or whether it can actually ever happen, but I'll be damned if I ask him while he is still a wayward. I know I am not yet healed - and really, I might never be completely healed. I was hurt - and there is no ignoring it.

I can guarantee you it would drive me nuts if WxH was across the street with Babs and there was a possiblity they could move there.

It's okay for it to bother you - I think it would bother alot of us.

I just don't think it is wise to call him. You have to figure out how to get past those urges to seek him out.

Throwing up after you talked to him shows how wound up you were.

I think you are trying really hard to "fake it till you make it" and that's okay, too.

You're doing just fine, Rin. Personal recovery is a marathon, too.

Fox

Rin, honestly... from the outside looking in, I don't see POWS rejecting you. I see him being the same from the very beginning and YOU gradually pulling away. YOU have rejected him and all that he offers (or not). YOU are not the rejected one. You are the rejector.

Try thinking about it that way next time this comes up. You REJECT all the negative stuff that comes with being involved with POWS in any way. When you HAVE to have contact, it goes against your grain now.

So, next time you see him. Remember, "I reject that. See ya."

I hear you Cat...I was trying to identify what I was feeling at the moment...it was how I use to feel when I was with him...that's not how I feel today...

Our brains can call up old feelings and they don't change in the intensity...I KNEW that's not how I really felt...but couldn't identify the feeling...and I had to know what feeling it was...if I didn't figure it out then what would happen if I experienced that feeling again...

The wake up was being about to say THIS IS HOW I FELT...that was the WOW for me...I still have defects in my character that need to be fixed...hurts to heal...I know I'm not COMPLETELY better

FOX like you said I don't know that I will ever be either...and like I mentioned I know that THAT feeling is why I have been having trouble with dating...

He's not rejecting me TODAY...MOF, he would love to come back IF "I" let him...but that's not happening...

PM, I did reject him...I had the last say...his behavior was no longer okay and STILL isn't in my book...

What I learned from the experience was that I have abandonment issues...and it's a result of those experiences with him...I'm trying to move forward in my life...but have been having some difficulty...

I didn't say that I was cured in one night...I feel at peace with what I learned...I accept that I have a kink that I'm going to have to look out for...like I said I still have work to be done...

Fox, when you have to talk to XH, do you keep it to just the kids or finances? I do and even that is limited...but I do see what you are saying on contact and in that instance...


THIS is SOO true...like having first right to refusal and finding out that he put the kids at the sitter this past Sat to be with OW...I had to call to ENFORCE my boundaries...I simply stated that it was called to my attention that that I would appreciate it if he didn't make up my mind on whether or not I could watch the kids for him...that they missed a b-day party that day...and asked him to call me in the future...I asked if I had to pay the sitter for that and when was I going to get some CS...

I couldn't make a big deal of it becasue I failed to follow through on the first right back in Dec...which he knew about...so I simply stated that I would apprecaite it if he didn't make up my mind for me and I would do the same for him...

Lesson with that one was...stick to the agreement in the court paperwork for me...I can't exactly call my lawyer and say well he did this if I did it...