These sentences are kind of inconsistent. If Monc were to call Dr. Harley (or Steve and Jennifer) they would gladly help him too (and his chances of success are 100 times better than Zen and Coho since the good doctor is clear that he's had close to no success with counseling affairages whereas he's helped and saved countless kid-less marriages). If you'll help Zen and Coho because "Dr. Harley himself" would try...why wouldn't you apply the same standard to Monc's situation even though the odds are long as well?



The point is that IF your wife ran off with an OM and married him...you can be sure that Mrs. W and I wouldn't have helped you AND then helped them save thei affairage on MB. The point expands out to the many other people we have helped (or tried to help) on these boards, some still here and some now gone, that still struggle with ex-ws's married to their OP's, that are long awaiting the karma bus to come around full circle and smack their former WS's. Whether it's healthy to wish for that or not...many divorced betrayed's that visit these boards WANT the affair to end...WANT remorse...WANT an apology and, perhaps, mostly WANT their x's spouse (the OP) FAR and AWAY from their kids. If Zen or Coho were my neighbors IRL...I wouldn't hesitate to assist them as much as I could (though even the professional finds helping affairages fleeting, at best)...but I'd do so IN PRIVATE. I'd NEVER invite them here for help and betray those legitimate marriages that I tried to promote and protect with my years invested here. Just as I'd never send a rapist to a public recovery program for rape victims.


My wife was worth it. Kid or not. I said so in the beginning and mean it to this day. I did not fight, nor save my marriage FOR my daughter. I did what I did for US/her. I am not a "save all marriages" guy/poster either (we've got to have a name for the "end all marriages crew"...maybe DAC's or Divorce at All Costs"...lol). Rather, I respect the process. Monc is processing. I don't think it's unhealthy for him to try to save his marriage. He's not damaging himself or his worth but undertaking a noble effort...even if it's likely a matyr's mission. If it works...great. If not...he'll come around to divorcing and doing what's likely/maybe best for him and moving on. He'll regret, like some of you guys seemingly do, the time he wasted TRYING...but there's really no sense crying over spilt milk. In the grand scheme it's not that much time "wasted". The end result is the same and you guys are better and stronger because of it. The process seasoned you. However, I think those that want to try and don't will likely have bigger regrets wondering "what if". Anyone with THAT regret can never get over it. They can never go back and get a do-over so instead they will spend years trying to convince themselves (and others) that booting their WS to the curb was the best decision they ever made. However late at night while they lay in bed alone (or with their current temporary conquest) they so often have to question whether they really handled their life properly. When you take shortcuts in life you'll never what opportunities you missed if you'd have just stayed on the highway. I don't know...it's all so convoluted...but I do know that each person has to figure this out on their own in their own time.


My wifes remorse & repentence took months. She was still worth it. Monc's wife MAY be worth it to him. Please note...I'm not telling you NOT to post your opinion or that your opinion has no merit...rather I am attempting to balance your opinion out with another experience. IMO...I think we should let Monc figure this out and support him along the way with the techniques for "trying" provided by this website. We can also be there for him as emotional support if and when such attempts fail (as we were for you).

Mr. Wondering

Well... I got her to make an appointment with Dr. Harley.

I had to trade my new home address so she can serve me papers for divorce. My address for an appointment.

She bit. So...hopefully it helps some how. If she had no intentions of trying remotely, why on earth would she make the appointment? As my letter to her was about having never sought real help in our marriage.

I'm actually confused a great deal because she still talks to me with a hard angry edge.

Anger means she is still emotionally invested in the relationship (whether for good or for bad). The opposite of love is indifference - not hate.

The opposite of Love is not indifference - it is Hate.

Think of indifference as a neutral point between the 2.

Opposite of positive feelings are negative feelings.

That logic works on Bohr's model of the atom and also in general electricity. How many peopl, after a few years, truly hate their ex-spouse? Most simply no longer care. Hate is part of the rationalization process to fall out of love. It is a systemic and systematic process of removing love.

I agree most no longer care. However the opposite of good or bad feelings is still bad or good feelings - neither of which is desirable - so the middle position indifference is what to strive for.

So then, by your logic, you're saying Monc's marriage is done and dusted?

Not at all Pio.

What precludes her from canceling this appointment? You don't have many bargaining chips left.

I've not given her the address yet.

I don't know...I just hope she'll keep it?

This is something I say often. IMO, most people - in America's society anyway - have no business marrying before they are at least 25. They are not done changing yet. What they THINK they want at 21 will be vastly different from what they finally realize they want at 30. Best to not drag kids into such a relationship that, if not doomed to fail, is at least doomed to be not so great - and produce not so great kids.

Wow, I'm glad I didn't read something like this when I was newly married at 19. Our "doomed to fail" marriage produced four great kids who turned out to be wonderful adults.

I disagree that it's an age thing. Look how many people married very young way back when and STAYED married for years and years.

Age only applies to any of this because at middle 20s a person who is considering the hassle of trying to save and rebuild a marriage has time to start over with his/her life. Age has nothing to do with success of a marriage.

Growing up is not what causes marriages to fail but failing to grow up. Grown up people accept responsibility for the choices they have made.

It wasn't until the 20th century that people waited to get married until they were older than about 16. Men were typically in the military at about age 14 and had served their time by 17 or 18, assuming they survived till then. By 40 many were dead, that left a 20 year period in which to have a family and provided for their continuation once you were gone.

It is a 20th century notion that marriage is for the purpose of fulfillment. It isn't growing up that ends marriages; it's living independently. Marriages don't end because folks were too young when they met, they end because one or both did not provide extraordinary care for their partner. They sought personal fulfillment (they felt entitled) over provision for their spouse.

People fall out of love because they don't build compatibility by meeting each others EN and avoiding love busters. They end up resenting each other because they don't deal with conflict but seek to avoid it. If being older, wiser and knowing more about what to expect from marriage made a difference then second marriages should last longer than first marriages. They don't because the second ones end for the same reasons as the first and age is not what ends marriages.

Marriages end over selfishness, not maturity.

Mark

Can't edit so I'll add it here...

What makes for a stable, fulfilling and happy marriage is adapting to changes. Waiting till you are older does not mean people won't change, it really only means they will be more set in their independent ways and have to adapt even more.

The key to marital success is compatibility. Compatibility is not a condition you simply find yourself in, it is created by hard work. You aren't born compatible, you become compatible by adapting to each other and to changing conditions.

Mark

You will notice I said in America's society. That's because our treadmill is filled with the better car, the better condo, the pool, the private school, the $200 tennis shoes, the $600 video game...

And this is what today's youth is being brought up to honor, thanks to media, 300 channels on tv, and all their accompanying ads.

There was a story on NPR Friday about schools having to bring in athletes to primary schools, to teach kids how to get off their butts and play during recess, rather than just sitting around talking and listening to iPods. The officials said that recess is typically the only time each day that kids today ever get any physical activity any more.

More and more stories about 20-somethings in the workforce who expect to be promoted in a year, running the business in 5. They're so used to having everything handed to them that when reality hits them in the job, they just quit. So companies are having to come up with 'perks' to keep them from leaving, like having monthly 'praise' meetings to stroke their egos.

You seriously think these 20 year olds are ready to understand and commit to a marriage, babies, and sacrifice?

Most people posting here are at least in their 30s, if not 40s to 60s. Totally different mindset.

Not ALL of today's youth are being brought up like this. I personally know of a whole group of 19-20 somethings that have no such mindset. I do agree however, that they are probably the exception. These kids have been brought up right. They DON'T honor "things". They value relationships, their parents, others.

Media is not totally to blame. There is an "off" button on these things that parents are free to use. LOL

When I was at the juvenile detention center for my nephew's hearing, there were two mothers there discussing what they were going to do when their daughters were released.

Mom1: "Well, the Judge said the monitor her cell phone and Internet use. But I just can't do that to her. She would feel like she was living in a prison!"

Mom2: "Oh, I know what you mean. What do we do to make sure that they're not abusing their privileges? I can't be there 24/7! I have a life!"

Me: I have a suggestion.

Mom1: Yes?

Me: That computer? Unplug it and move it out of her room. The cell phone? Turn it off.

Mom1: Whaaattt??? She would be so angry with me....

Me: And you care because?..... You're her mom, not her buddy. Hello?? If you want the same things happening over and over again then just keep doing the same things you've been doing.

They just looked at me like I had two heads.

Daughter to Mom1 was released. Mom hands her her cell phone. Daughter is on the phone, laughing and giggling before they get out the door.

Mr.W, you're in a small small group on these boards who have actually saved their marriage and had an eventually repentant WW.

Would I have taken back my exww? If she had acted in time, yes. But those feelings are now totally gone and have been replaced with the realization that no woman, no matter how attractive, smart, etc, NONE, is worth the pain of recovery when there are no children involved. There are plenty of very awesome, attractive, smart, and moral women out there to replace her with.

Children in the equation changes things a bit. Now there is a family to fight for and save and the temporary insanity of one of the partners is worth trying to forgive and attempt the recovery.

But, as the thread I started before stated, what is the cost of having a WW return? It's years of suspicion, pain, rebuilding, and then what? Short of a massive change on her part, there is always that lingering doubt of, "will she do it again?"

Perhaps that is not a concern for you anymore, and that's great. But you see someone like Krazy and the idea of his wife with another man is simply one he can't get past.

If Zen and Coho didn't have 4 chidlren I'd be telling Zen to run in the other direction, apologize to the former BH, and count his blessings that there are no kids.

But, regardless of whether or not Zen and Coho are an affairage, they have 4 innocent victims of their original sin. So it would be great, for their children, if they can save their affairage.

That's not an endorsement of affairages. It's an endorsement of preserving a family for children or at least making the attempt.

Your WW had the capacity to learn. There's a chance both Zen and Coho could learn as well and straighten out. The fact that their marriage was born out of a heinous act doesn't mean that they can't change as individuals and see the light.

I don't buy into the MB poster's philosophy that affairages are something to seek pleasure in their destruction and dissolution.

Am I happy when affairages crash and burn? You bet. First one to laugh at the Karma bus. But I do feel for any kids caught in the drama. So my goal is that there is stability for the children and the hopes that the new affairage doesn't produce more innocent victims in the form of new children.

Zen and Coho have four such innocent victims. The only victim in Monc's case is Monc. It's tragic and it sucks, but Monc has the ability to say, "I deserve better and she's not worth my tears."

She's not. No woman is.

No cheating man is.

There's too many available and single wonderful women for him to get stuck on this cheater he married.

If she came back tomorrow and was remorseful and committed to changing and had the will to make it happen then that's a different story. But she shows no signs of this and I've seen men like Monc wait for years for the WW to return.

It's my opinion that doing so is a waste of youth and time.

Too many better women out there than to get hung up on this one.

But I will agree with you that it is a process. There would be something wrong with Monc if this was easy for him and he had no feelings over the loss of his wife.

But his wife is dead. The WW is what's left and a WW isn't worth a darn. Not worth a breath. Not worth a tear. Not worth a thought.

The second any woman ever sets foot in wayward territory with me is the second I will be emotionally dead to her. Will be tossed away like a dirty kleenex. It's a lesson I've learned through hard experience.

My challenge is to make sure I meet her EN's so she's not wayward at all. That's where my responsibility comes in.

But for Monc to be hung up on her is just not worth his youth or his time.

But he'll eventually realize this on his own.

One thing to consider in all of this is that when Monc first got here the advice he first received was to let his WW go and move on. He decided that to him his wife IS worth the fight and so that is where the advice has headed since those initial posts.

But as to whether or not his wife is worth fighting for and is really worth the effort is HIS decision to make. Once that decision has been made those wishing to help him can and should focus their attention on that goal. If he had decided to end the marriage and move on with life, then it would be pointless to continue to instruct him in the finer points of Plan A, since Plan A is designed to save a marriage from an active affair.

And that is what gets missed in the discussion of whether or not to use Plan A on an active cheater. Plan A is ONLTY for an active cheater. If the affair ends and the WS is instantly repentant, then there is no need for a Plan A, since recovery can begin and Plan A has NOTHING to do with recovery. Plan A is only for those who have decided to fight for their marriage in spite of an ongoing affair.

You are right, Baron, in saying that few marriages have recovered from an affair when the WS will not end the affair at once. Mr W IS the exception rather than the rule. That is not an indictment of Plan A but rather an indication of how difficult the process really is. It also points to the character of Mr W and his perseverance in the face of nearly overwhelming odds.

But filing for divorce and really just moving on with your life is a valid one and one that probably should be the one made many times if not in most cases; it does not lead to recovery from an affair and does NOT save the marriage. If the goal of the BS is to accomplish those things, then moving on can’t gain what they want.

Plan A doesn’t work most of the time, but because most affairs do in fact end within a couple of years Dr Harley recommends Plan B, which only marginally works at ending the affair and simply allows a healing and reconstruction of life for the BS to wait to see if the WS ever wakes up and desires to reconcile. At that point it is still up to the BS to decide if recovery is even possible. For most at that point I would think that it no longer is much of an option since so much garbage is present it would take years to sort through and recover from.

But Plan A is only for a BS who does not have a repentant WS. There is no need to Plan A a repentant WS. And as much as it would be my choice to just move on with my life if I was under 30, had no children and not much in marital assets, Monc has decided to fight for his marriage and his wife. Though even divorce does not mean the ultimate end of the relationship, just letting the divorce happen and finding someone else is not what he has chosen. He has chosen to fight and until he has exhausted that option he really can’t move on because until he knows that he has done all he can do there will forever be a lingering doubt in his mind as to what else he might have done to save what he feels is of enough value to fight for.

Plan A as it applies to the WS is only for those who do NOT repent at once and for the BS it only applies to those who choose to not just move on. If the WS repents, no Plan A is needed. If the BS decides to move on, no Plan A is needed.

Mark

Quick last TJ: PM, you and I are completely on the same side. That's how I raised my D18. She knows better. She includes us in activities with her friends. Her only rule, lol, is that we're not to go to the mall with her on a Friday night. That's embarrassing, apparently.

But we wrestle every day with all the kids she deals with whose parents just aren't interested in working that way with their kids. I see mothers of 1 year olds just turn the tv on and leave the room to go do their own thing. Her former best friend used our house (and our D18) to bring her boyfriend over to do the deed; when D18 called her out on it, she launched a smear campaign to ruin our daughter! One of D18's male gay friends had a nosebleed Saturday night and just left his coke can - WITH his blood-soaked kleenex on top of it - on my coffee table, for me to clean up! Her best friend got shipped off to live in Peru for a year with grandma when her mom had a baby with her new husband, so she wouldn't interfere. The first week of school D18 had a phone AND a camera stolen. The kids were warned not to go near a certain park this weekend, as it was going to be gang initiation, and any girl there would be 'targeted.'

And this is in the upscale school in our district, where the parents are supposed to be the involved ones. The stories from the 'poor' school are even worse.

And it's not about the kids, really - it's about the parents who have let raising their kids go, so they themselves can do what THEY want, leaving these kids to learn their rights and wrongs from society and media.

This kid with the nosebleed - he brought a movie to watch about two young white boys (about 18) who proceed to torture and murder a family, and then go on to the next family; this kid tells us that this movie is amazing! That he 'so gets it' - what these boys are trying to say, and he 'gets' why they don't see anything wrong with killing people if it's what they 'need' to do.

I later told D18 he's not allowed at our house without my permission any more. *sigh*

I'm not saying all kids are like that. I'm saying you're safer assuming they have some aspect of this in them or in their culture. Whether they climb out of it or avoid it altogether really depends on their parents. JMHO

You can't Plan A a woman that doesn't live with you. You can only Plan B her.

Otherwise, all you are is a doormat that she seeks out when she wants EN's met. I've seen it here.

The WW goes on dates with BH. BH gets his hopes up. WW gets her jollies with BH. BH sees signs things could be better.

All the while WW is with OM1, 2, and 3.

BH becomes a doormat.

If you don't want to divorce, then take the interim step of going to Plan B.

Nothing to lose by doing that and the calmness and separation can bring clarity of thought to the BH.

But I ultimately feel the realization will be the same at the end of the day. NO ONE is worth this.

Kids make it worth the effort.

To me a BH hanging on to the idea of a WW returning when there are no kids in the equation is the same as a beggar sitting next to a buffet table waiting for the meal he wants versus the awesome mean he could have if he just opened his eyes.

That buffet table (the awesome women out in the world) beckons but he's stuck waiting for the crappy meal he's had before.

Makes no sense.

But it is a process. All I want is for Monc to not be stuck waiting for this WW for years, like I've seen happen on these boards to several men.

It's a waste of life and youth.