How do you know its time? I have done Dr. Harley's program and have been seeing a therapist who uses the program in marriage counseling. My husband isnt interested in doing either. He did some of the program when we seperated for 3 months after he left our family for another woman. He came back home and seemed sincere about wanting to work things out. This has been 1 1/2 ago and things arent getting in better. He is an alcoholic but is in denial. I love him very much, but it is like we arent even there. He does his own thing and drinks. He has no interest in us at all. I still think he has moments when he talks to the other woman and sees her. My children are older, one is about to start her own family. I dont know why I am still here. I feel no love, just that he is here out of guilt. I am trying to wait.......but my love bank is completely empty. I find myself lonely and confused.

payrollmom ,

I don't know that anyone can really answer that for you. You have to make sure you are open and honest with yourself about what you are willing to forgive, and how much of the load you are willing to take.

I would recommend that you start your own thread over in General Questions II. You will get more responses over there from people who know more about affairs.

So I asked her (in email) if her 'thanks' response was sarcastic or not. I didn't want to assume anything.

Her reply was, "Just meant thanks for the reply". I suppose I should have clarifed and asked whether or not she was ok or unhappy with my reply. So do I follow up and ask her what I really want to know? Or should I just let it go since I'm either making a bigger deal then it is to her, is content to just keep it to herself and resent me for it, or she doesn't think it should be expected of me to pay.

I'm beginning to think that I am making a big deal out of this...I just want to make it something since I actually held my ground this time.

Just let your actions speak for themselves. You only look weak if you keep at it.

I agree. She asked, you answered, she said 'thanks'.

As they say on TV "asked and answered"!

Thanks ladies. I was leaning towards the opposite. I know what I will say if she addresses me about it, and I suppose that's all I need to do.

edit: and Cat, you are also dead-on about having it only make me look weak. That has happened way too many times already.

I suspect that perhaps that one of the things that's keeping her away from me, so to speak, is that she doesn't see me as very confident, and thus attractive, right now.

thanks for your advice. I am new to the forum, wasnt quite sure where to post.

The money incident from Monday is still on my mind, but it has not come up, so I am content to leave it there.

So Tuesday night I took my 4 year old to soccer practice. I also get the kids on Wednesday nights, and my 8 year-old step son usually opts to stay with mom...unless I can promise him something super exciting, or a toy bribe. As well, S8 had a baseball game at 6:30. I considered going to the game, but S4 and D2 were my responsibility. Bedtime is between 7:30 and 8, so I opted to skip this game. I would certainly miss bedtime after driving home and bath, plus getting them back to mom's. Plus, I would end up watching them on the playground instead of watching baseball. It also occurred to me that I could just keep the kids overnight, which I've never done on a week day before. I told W and she was fine with that, but said that I didn't have to do that, and admittedly I did mention that I thought it would be easier for her. I also wanted to see them in the morning.

But it just occurred to me that my real reason, that I didn't even want to admit to myself, was that I didn't want to wait for W to pickup kids after the baseball game. I hate waiting. I would get frustrated and I would starting thinking the W was running to late, and not thinking about the kids needs to get to bed, or of being on time with me. Totally nuts I know about but that's my trained reaction. I wanted to avoid all that frustration, not have a conflict with the W, and a little bit of...give W some stress free time with S8.

Now why the heck couldn't I just say that from the beginning? I feel like I could tell W that, but probably unnecessary.

Also, S8 called me after the game, to tell me he got the game ball for getting hit hard by a line drive, but still got the guy out at 1st. So proud. And I feel so lucky that he wanted to call me.

So to continue, I took my too little ones to daycare this morning. This is the first time I've done that since the separation, and both kids didn't really like me dropping me off. Lots of clinging and tears. That really sucked.

As it turned out, W was dropping off S8 at the same time (he stays there till elem school starts). I saw her in the lobby I was checking the kids in(already brought them to their classes), and she was basically on her way out. We said hi, and then I had to concentrate on the computer check-in. When I turned around, she was walking to her car. By the time I got out there she was pulling out. She gave a tentative wave.

It definitely seemed that she was avoiding me.

About 10 minutes later, I get an email from her saying thanks again for taking the kids last night. Seemed to me that although she didn't want to talk, she didn't want to start a conflict either. I replied back that she didn't have to thank me, it made things easier for me too.

Lately, I've been rather unemotional and business like around her. I haven't raised issues where I typically would, and I don't kid around with her when I typically would, if that makes any sense. I limit contact as much as possible. I don't tell her she looks good anymore.

Enforcing boundaries is hard, but I need to do it. I don't know where all this is taking me, but I'm sure that it's better then where I am right now.

Sounds like you're doing the best you can under the circumstances.

Ok, so I am considering writing a letter (or email) to my W. I've been thinking about it for a while now (pretty much since OH's letter), although my purpose would be a bit different.

The reason I want to write the letter from a broad sense is to be open and honest. I don't want who I am or why I'm doing what I'm doing to be misunderstood. I also want to show that I have some clue as to what's going on with her. We are headed towards divorce, and I don't want to happen based on any misunderstandings.

I want to tell her how I feel about her, mentioning some of the specific things about her that I admire. I want to tell her what I enjoy in life right now, and what I want to do with my life going forward.

I want to tell her that I do not want a divorce, that I want to start over and build a new life with her. I also want to be clear that I do not want things to be the way they were. I don't want to be the person I was or feel the way I felt. And I don't want to be with her or anyone else who doesn't want to be with me. I respect her wishes to divorce, where she wants to go with her life, and her opinions about me and our marriage. I don't want her to stay married out of any morality or obligation.

From here, I also wanted to say something about boundaries. I want to explain that even though I may want to do something to show how I feel, I don't always feel safe in doing so. I understand that she feels the same way and has through much of our marriage. I want to say that I don't like myself when I don't have good boundaries, that I don't think I'm a very respectable person, and I have to be realistic in prepare for a future without her.

I want to end with saying that I'll cherish the time we've spent together, and I'm thanking for being her husband and learning so much from her.



So, am I saying too much? Should I be letting my actions speak? Does it seem like I'm trying to be controlling or anything like that? I want to avoid DJs, but should I mention any ENs or LBs?

dkd, I think there could well be a lot more than you are doing right now, to bring this to a quick resolution. I just now saw your kids are 8, 4, 2. They would really really benefit from having such a great father living in the home with them. How would you feel about calling the Harleys?

I'm open to suggestions of things I could do. I'm constantly trying to learn as much as I can here, and working on myself.

As far as calling the Harleys, I don't know. The money isn't an issue really, I just don't see that it would benefit too much. I honestly have been thinking about seeing the marriage counselor again, but I try to save that for when I don't know where to turn next.

Well, from here I think your family would be best served by you moving back in, but IIRC there were reasons that you were not enthusiastic about that, though I don't remember what they are. I think the Harleys would help your family troubleshoot through that to get you back home more effectively and much more quickly than an MC would. The Harleys are very action oriented, which makes sense, because it's far easier to choose new actions than new thought patterns. And then new actions reshape the thought processes.

If you are dead set against the Harleys, I encourage you to call out to LA. She also focuses on choosing the honest actions that get the thought processes back in place. I don't remember why you two are separated, but if it's to "think things through" for example, she could think a lot better with you in the home doing the child rearing, house keeping, and finances together instead of on one set of shoulders.

be strong. Relationships would really have the ups and downs. this life can give us too much but it's always true that they'll pass. surely if you wait reasonably things can still be patched up.

ears,

My wife and I separate a year ago, and I never wanted to do it. What kept me away at first is that I was hoping it was going to be a week or so only. After that point, she had threatened that if I moved back in, she would move out with the kids to her parents house. At that time, I wanted to avoid conflict, moving in didn't appear to help us, and didn't want my kids to have to suffer at all. My wife was not working at that time.

In hindsight, I realize that it was a big mistake for me to leave. So the question is, why don't I move back in now? Well, I still want to avoid conflict, although that shouldn't be reason alone. We are in the process of getting a divorce and one of the things I have promised her is that she would have the oppurtunity to buy the house. A couple months ago, I tried to put a timeline on getting that done, and it was a huge disaster. It took days to even get her to talk to me about what upset her and resolve the miscommunication. So anyway, moving back in would give the appearance that I am going back on my word, then I'm being vindictive. Atleast to the point that that's what she would chose to believe. Although she would see it as a sign of strength should would see it as selfishness and a sign that I don't really care.

Beside that, although my kids are suffering with me not living there, every attempt is made to get their needs met. I am seeing them way beyond the typical every other weekend.

My wife originally wanted the separation as a chance for her to see what life was like without me. To see if she missed me. A month or so later, she made the decision to divorce has never reconsidered, not to my knowledge anyway.

That's not to say that things have not changed between us. Looking back, the first month or so I did most things wrong, I was pretty much in a kind of a fog. I then moved on focusing on ENs and that really didn't go very well. When I started focusing on boundaries and eliminating LBs (especially DJs), things started changing. She started removing LBs as well.

I believe my wife is the kind that although things will get better, she won't see it as a possibility that things could work out until it's overwhelming, if at all. She'll ignore the elephant in the room so to speak.

I guess I'm feeling that although strong actions are needed, I also need to be patient. She has come to see things differently in her own time. She is concerned about DJs and manipulation, and doesn't really feel very drawn to me right now. That's kind of why I want to send a letter. I want to give a strong front and show confidence, but at the same time show some respect and understanding of where she is at right now. I want her to feel safe with me.

Just as an example, my 4 year old has soccer practice at 5 on tuesday's. Since I'm the coach I usually pick him up at around 4:30. My W lost track of time and was running late, and really wasn't going to get to the house till 5. Since I was the coach, I had to be there at 5 and couldn't wait. When she called to tell me she was running late, she felt horrible and was very apologetic. In the past, I would typically be upset with her and that's what she was expecting. I wasn't at all upset, not evening thinking that way. She was so releaved. In fact I was impressed that she really tried to get him to practice as quick as possible, and I told her what a good mom she was for that.

I want more oppurtunities like that.

I guess I didn't answer the question about counseling. One reason why I'd consider my MC over the Harley's is that I can do it face to face and my MC knows me and my W pretty well. I wouldn't have to spend time filling in gaps...and he would probably catch me if I had the wrong view on things.

The 2nd reason is, I don't want to go full 100% working towards marriage. If I do that, I will lose patience and am more likely to slip up. I am likely to appear desparate and weak. And honestly, that's going to hurt a heck of a lot more then it does right now.

As it stands right now, I can take it ok when she doesn't hug me goodbye. I can accept that she's uncomfortable with it and have confidence that I can hug her when I really want to, and not feel bad when she looks away or something. I can take it or leave it with no regrets.

If I put all my hope in her, in us, I can't handle it.

Dkd, thanks for the recap, that's what I had thought from what I'd remembered, but wasn't sure. I understand that over time she will see who you are again, and I trust your judgment on this. I also see that you've been a very involved father.


See, this is where I think Steve would help you, with framing this, so that she'd know, even if she thought you were dead wrong, exactly why you were making movements to come home. You do not owe it to your wife to keep a promise at the expense of your kids. I have said this before and I am saying it again there is nothing in MB about promises besides the "Oh, no, but you promised..." article, and you may remember how that one turned out. We daily get new information and I think POJA includes using this new information, too.

I don't say any of this to give you advice. Clearly you are making progress, and comfortable with the current course with the addition of the email. I pray that your message softens her heart and wakes her up that you have a drastically different situation today then at first. Have you read that Why Women Leave Men? What do you think, would something like that be relevant, that you want a marriage where you both will be happy, that will reflect what is special and meaningful and significant for both of you?