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The carrot and the stick thread is just down about 1/2 way on the thread title page. It's by Pepperband. 105 views if that helps find it.

Read it and read it and read it again. Printing it out is a good idea.

I agree, as I said before too, your WH has a serious addiction. I believe you need more help than what you will get here. This is not a typical A.

Good suggestions so far. Good luck.


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I read THE Carrot and THE Stick of Plan A. It helped clarify a lot of this for me.

I have written down everything that I have discovered. I haven't brought it up again since the initial confrontation. I am taking everyone's advice and finding out everything (or everything that I can) before I do anything else. Snoop, Snoop, Snoop.

And I am starting to create a plan. I think I need to wait before I have all of the facts before I can establish exactly what my boundaries are, right? I don't want to sit down and set my boundaries and my rules, and then find something else, and keep amending my boundaries.

But how do I figure everything out if he won't admit it? I have dug and dug all I can, and can't find anything else so far. I am waiting for our phone records to come back, too. But how do I do that? Do I just call every single number on there that I do not recognize? That doesn't make any sense..

Sometimes I feel like if we didn't have kids, I would leave. Is that wrong? I mean, I DO love him. But when I sit and think about that statement, it seems like I am ONLY staying in it for the kids. And that's not true.


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What more do you need to start a plan?
You have A LOT of damaging, vile, and disrespectful information already.

Set your boundaries now. They are not set in cement. Tell WH that boundaries may change with new revelations.
You need to act now. Doing nothing but stewing will get you nothing in return but worse nerves than you already have.

You can look phone records up on line and get up to date calls.
Don't call all the #'s, use reverse look up on the net. There is a free one, don't be paying for this. This should help to minimize the ones that do need a call.
Some of these #'s you may be able to recognize from the site, you will just have to figure it out. It will take time.

Your emotions will be all over the place, a different one for every minute, hour etc.
This is why it is advised to not make any rash decisions about D at this time.

Again, phone the Harley's. It will be cheaper than Plan B in the long run.


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I went through every phone record for the time period during which I KNOW he had memberships. There are quite a few numbers that I do not recognize. But I don't know if it is an OW or just a friend of his whose phone number I do not know.. The reverse phone number things only work with landlines. Or at least the ones I have found that are free. With cell phones, it just will tell me who the Provider is. That doesn't help much..

I am not making any decisions about D yet. Period. Even if he requests one. I told him I won't grant him one. At least not until the initial shock is over and a genuine effort has been attempted. We have been "working on things" for a couple months, yeah. But all the while, he was elsewhere, emotionally. So I don't qualify that as an attempt.

I guess I will sit down tonight after the kids go to bed and I have a moment to think alone and devise a real Plan A. I will look into a call to the Harley's. From what everyone says on here, my A is "different" because it is more than just an A. It is an addiction to porn and/or sex.

The minutes seem to creep by slower than they ever have before. It feels like time has almost come to a stop. I feel like the exposing has backfired. I am getting completely conflicting views on either side of the fence.


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KDew,

I feel for you, I really do.

You won't go wrong with calling them. You will actually feel some relief because they will know how to handle this the best way for any success.


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So last night was the hardest night for me, so far.

H didn't get home from work until after 8p. He usually is home by about 4p, maybe 5p on a late day. I didn't question. I am trying to be nice and not LB or DJ by accusing him of things if I don't have any proof. So I am taking his word for it that he had to work late, for now.

I tried to do it all. I tried to fill his ENs. I tried to talk to him, just about daily things. But I couldn't. I haven't even been able to look him in the eyes a single time in the last 72 hours since discovery. All I see when I do is someone else. It's like he is not here. All I think about is all the things I read and saw. I literally had to excuse myself twice to go to the RR. And I know he knew why.

And this was all only in an hour's time.

I tried to initiate conversations. Simple questions. "How was your day?" "Would you like dinner or did you already eat?" I never got more than simple answers. Nothing on which to build further conversation.

As for the official Plan A implementation -- I am waiting until Saturday. We are both off of work then. I don't want to ambush him in the 15 minutes we have between off work and bedtime during the work week. Plus I don't want to do it in front of the kids. I'm going to take them to my sister's for a couple hours on Saturday and take my H somewhere calm and address it all. Hopefully without tears or raised voices.

Any suggestions on how to bring it all up without sounding like I am giving ultimatums or demands? I mean, that is basically what my boundaries are, but I don't want it to sound belittling or demeaning. As much as I am hurting, I realize that screaming and yelling and threatening is only going to give him further reasons to continue this fantasy A.

For the next 24 hours until I lay out my boundaries, I am doing all of the "carrot" parts of Plan A. However, I am building up so much anger and frustration as I am doing these, because I feel as if I am being taken advantage of here. It's like I am rewarding him for getting caught. In this sense, it's like screaming "Hey! Have an A every day, because this is what you'll come home to when you do! Clean house. Happy wife. Laundry done. Dinner on the table. Kids in bed. Fantasy land!"

Any insight?? Anyone??


Me BS .. XH WS

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KDew,

To be honest, I have no idea how to deal with WH's addictions.
Unless someone comes along who feels confident dealing with this, you will get nowhere.
Why don't you ask the mods. to move this thread to GQII ?

You said you were going to call the Harley's .... have you ??


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Have you gone back and cancelled all his memberships? To stop having to pay for them?

Remember, Plan A isn't about letting him do whatever he wants. It's holding up your standards AND meeting his needs.

Does he have any close friends or cousins? You should have exposed to them by now.

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You know, it’s probably going to come across as ultimatums and demands to him no matter how you bring it up. All I can tell you is to do it in a calm, rational, resolute voice. I really wouldn’t expect him to just agree with your perspective and come around. He will probably get angry and defensive and try to shift the blame back to you. If he does this, just calmly tell him that you admit that you’ve made mistakes but that you refuse to accept the blame for his poor choices.

I wish I could tell you that I felt good about your chances of reaching him, but to be honest I don’t see much hope until he gets help for his addictions and the 1st thing he has to do is admit that they are addictions and that they are problems. Unfortunately, it appears that his family just enables his behavior. That being said, you still need to establish boundaries to protect yourself. No one will protect you or your children if you don’t do it.

Be sure that you are committed to follow through if he doesn’t respect your boundaries. Realize that you will be better of divorced than living in an abusive marriage with a husband who will continue to hurt you with no thought or remorse for what he’s doing to you and his children.

I really wish I could offer you more, but unfortunately most of us are ill prepared to handle issues of addictive behavior. That’s why it would be well worth a call to the Harleys. We can only comment from our own experiences and most of us have no experience with addiction. My perspective is that of a husband with a WW in a “traditional” affair. There are people on here who have dealt with addiction and maybe they will stop by to help. If you get the mods to move this to GQ II there is much more traffic.

I really do feel for you and wish you the best. But PLEASE call the Harleys. It will be well worth the cost.

The info on this site is fantastic, but it will not work if there is an active addiction. The addiction must be dealt with first so again please call the professionals.


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I called the MC we dealt with before marriage. He is the one who was going to marry us, but there was a schedule conflict with dates and such.. We still went through him for pre-marital counseling. He knows our situation and my H's family well, and is willing to do this all for free for me. So I am going to see if I can get anything accomplished with him first.

This is my other thought -- H's father, who was once a WS for the better part of two decades, is like a template for my H. He was a sex addict. (Or I guess "is", in the talk of Addicts. I am a child of two addicts [both drug/alcohol related], so I am well informed on how addictions are addressed, sadly. They address being an Addict as something you always are, for the rest of your life, regardless of whether or not you are exhibiting addictive behaviors.) But back to what I was saying.. My FIL is a sex addict, a former wayward, and an ex-abuser. My husband has never hit me, but he is VERY verbally abusive. So, basically, they are definitely like father, like son. However, my FIL hit rock bottom just before my H and I met, and came clean of everything and is now completely in recovery of everything. Should I maybe talk to him personally? To see if maybe he can sa or do something to get through to my H? Or should I talk to him WITH my H? My MIL is the one who is the enabler. My FIL never has been. Will that maybe help? I mean, in AA, some of the best mentors are former addicts themselves.. See where I'm going here??

Ugh. I am just a wreck. Tomorrow will be the official start of Plan A. I just don't know if my H is thinking clearly enough to even hear me. I think he is already divorced and single in his mind. Well, obviously some part of him thinks he is single...


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Originally Posted By: KDew
I called the MC we dealt with before marriage. He is the one who was going to marry us, but there was a schedule conflict with dates and such.. We still went through him for pre-marital counseling. He knows our situation and my H's family well, and is willing to do this all for free for me. So I am going to see if I can get anything accomplished with him first.

I think this is a good idea if WH is willing to go and this MC has experience with WH addictions.
Does he suggest WH go by himself? If he does, I would go along for the drive and wait in the waiting room.

If you feel FIL would support you, I would definitely tell him without WH being present. If WH freaks out, which he very well might, you say you are just telling the truth and need support for your M.
WH and his father's conversations are their own after that.
Speak to FIL without MIL present. She has maybe already said some things to him, but they may not be accurate.

As far as plan A, do the best you can, I know it's hard. Follow the carrot and the stick. Work on your half of making the M the best if can be and work on making you a better you.

Pat yourself on the back for sticking with it.

Post back with updates.

Take care.


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So I kinda broke from the original plan..

When H got off of work today, both of the kids happened to be taking a nap. So here we were. Silent. Neither one of us knowing what to say to one another. I was trying to just "act naturally" or whatever. But I couldn't. So Plan A went into effect, more or less, today.

We talked. About everything. He acknowledged that he has a problem. He wouldn't use the word "addiction", but would call it a "problem". So I guess that is a decent start. Like I said, I hadn't mentioned anything since initial confrontation (which was just basically "I know something is up"). He did not deny a single finding. He admitted to everything I accused. (Well, it was accusing, but I had facts to back up everything. He just didn't know that.)

The part I am finding hard to deal with is this though --

He says everything I asked him or accused him of is all there is to it. He seems sincere in this. He has apologized a number of times today. But he never outright "told" me anything. He only "told" me things if it was me asking him if such-and-such was true, and he would either confirm or deny it. I just find it hard to believe that I found EVERYTHING there was to find. I mean, I only looked two days. He says he did email multiple people, but that there were never any responses. And, honestly, there are no signs of any responses anywhere to be found. And my H never thought I would catch on. I mean, he had never even deleted HIS sent emails, so I don't know why he would have deleted any OW's emails.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't know how to prove or disprove that everything to be known is known. How do I get to a point that I trust him? I want to believe that I know everything that there is to know. But, on that same note, I would like to think that everything I know is a horrible nightmare. So am I being dumb and naive to believe him? Or is that all there really is to know??

Not all of Plan A is done though. Not by a long shot. I haven't sat him down yet to establish boundaries. Kids woke up too soon for us to get that far. So I am still gonna take them to my sister's for a while tomorrow while we do that.

I told him that I wanted to discuss boundaries with him tomorrow. However, I also told him that if there are any boundaries he wants to discuss with me, that would be fine as well. Was that a good thing to do? Or should we just focus on the A right now? I mean, I know I am responsible for creating the climate in which the A (or attempted A, whatever it may be) occurred. So should we discuss boundaries on both sides?? Or should that be reserved for a later date??


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So yesterday was a good day. Plan A was (I think) officially completed. That is, unless there is a part out there that I am missing..

We had a good couple hours away without the kids, during which I asked just about every possible question and scenario. I laid out my "boundaries". I told H what I expect of him, should we choose to continue this M. However, I was reluctant to actually ask him "Do you want to try and work things out or no?" I told him give it a week. No decisions until then. I won't ask him. He won't ask me. We're just gonna see how things go for a week, knowing that we are both "trying".

But this is where things fall short.

When I was asking him questions, there were so many "I don't know" or "I don't remember" responses.. My H truly does have one horrible memory. But I just don't know how far I can go on with those answers. It would be something like "I read an email that you sent to so-and-so that said such-and-such.. Who was that girl?" And he would say that he doesn't remember. Now, I realize that he was on so many different sites that he was overwhelmed with potential A's.. But how do I know that "I don't know" or "I don't remember" isn't just a way of trying to "protect me" from the truth?

He swears up and down that if he knew, he would tell me. He says that he understands that it is going to be hard for me to ever get complete closure with so many unknowns. I explained to him that I am scared that maybe there is an "I don't know" about a physical encounter that he is either hiding from me, or that his mind has chosen to block out. From cell phone records and email history, there really claims to be no sign of contact. But there is literally NO trust here..

I feel like until I accept that THIS is all there is to know, I cannot move forward. I can't start to rebuild, only to keep going back to DDay. I don't want to relive this cycle day after day.

And another thing..

Why do I feel like things are backwards?? I mean, H strayed. H hurt ME. H betrayed ME. H lied to ME. Why do I feel like I am begging HIM for forgiveness? Like I am begging HIM to stay?

Like I said before, I almost feel like I am telling him "Go out and have A's everyday, and you get to come home to this picture perfect W and life."

Did anyone else ever feel like this? Or am I doing something wrong?


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I think it's a combination of a male not wanting to be in the dog house with a female (based on upbringing with Mom) and the fog not allowing him to think clearly. Be patient.

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Quote:
I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't know how to prove or disprove that everything to be known is known. How do I get to a point that I trust him? I want to believe that I know everything that there is to know. But, on that same note, I would like to think that everything I know is a horrible nightmare. So am I being dumb and naive to believe him? Or is that all there really is to know??


I think your instincts are right on. They've gotten you this far. Sometimes around here a polygraph is suggested. Just the thought that a polygraph has been scheduled is sometimes the "push" that is needed to get the whole truth out.

But if you ask for this, follow through. Don't make it an idle threat.


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Hi,

I found my wife of 5 years to have had 2 affairs last year, they started with facebook and further e-mail's and text's then eventually ended in sex, the second affair was with a freind that i play football with. i know the hurt that you are going through right now belief me. When i found out about the affair it ended there and then all communication has been stopped and i now monitor everything phone, computer with a secret keylogger etc. i never wanted to feel paranoid or jelous but the trust has gone out of our relationship. all i can say is that you need to find out everything no matter how good or bad or you will make yourself ill thinking about what he may have been up to. you need some hard evidence but be careful on how you get it, i now have the keylogger which showed my so called friend trying to contact my wife after i found out that they had had an affair through an e-mail that he sent, when you know the truth then you can make a decision on what you need to do next, i am with my wife although she has hurt me beyond belief because i love her, i feel so lost and out of control that everyday it hurts me to think of what she has done, we have a 3 year old son and she has done this horrible thing to us but at least i know exactlly what she has done, where and who with. for me you need to know so that you can move on either with your husband or without him. i feel for you.

Russell.x

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Russell,

Thanks for the response. I was beginning to think no one was listening anymore.

I have dug and dug, and have found nothing new. So I guess that's all there is to find. My H stopped getting on the computer, and he has been with us every day since discovery, so I know there is no way he is talking to anyone.

The part that hurts is that since there is no evidence of him actually contacting anyone, there is really no need to establish a NC. That being said, I feel like we really aren't fixing anything, we are just avoiding it.

I don't want to live paranoid the rest of my life. I don't want to snoop. I don't want to have to ask "Who was that?" every time he gets a call or text message. I know that it would drive me crazy if he did that to me everytime I talked to someone. But on that same note, I know he would never have a reason to doubt me.

I don't want to nag him to death and drive him away further. But I also don't want to just act like it is nothing and be too nice, allowing him to take advantage of me again..

Ugh. It's such a difficult situation. I wish there was a right answer to all of my questions..


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KDew,

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned the idea of a polygraph? Maybe you could approach H with it as an idea to put (current) suspicion to rest. Also, has he looked into sex addict (SA) recovery websites?


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I haven't been in your shoes, but logic tells me that the best way to go about this would be to just make a vow to be completely honest with him from now on, about your feelings, your fears, your needs. Any time a doubt crops up, tell him - in a non-threatening way - how you're feeling. Get to the point where BOTH of you can become best friends with each other, share everything. Get so close that you can tell if things start going south again.

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Part of what I am worried about is this::

I mentioned before his father had multiple A's over the course of 17 years.. And his parents, in the end, decided to stay together..

But I see the way their relationship is today, and I think "I could never live that way".

My MIL constantly announces that my FIL was an adulterer, to any stranger who will listen, even though it has been YEARS. To this day, my FIL is not allowed to talk to ANYONE of the opposite sex. Even people like my little sister or my mom or the lady ringing up his groceries. He is strictly forbidden from ANY talk with females. She constantly accuses him of things. He must give any and all receipts to her the second he walks in the door. Everything is monitored. He is not allowed to get on the computer without her by his side. He is not allowed to make private phone calls.

And like I said, it has been at least 8 years since their D Day.

I don't want to live like that. I would never let my H do that to me. So why would I ever do that to him?

I realize that it has only been a week since my discovery, and that I have a right to question things. But I don't want him to compare me to what his mom does to his dad..

I want trust again. But I don't want to just give it out so quickly, and end up right back here again, saying "Well, he did it again.."

I guess what I am asking is this: Is it really possible to get over everything without any doubts? Or will it always be there?


Me BS .. XH WS

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Big D Final 01.2010
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