With what, SC, my confusion??!

Sugar, I find it works best for me if I can figure out what a person's strengths are (weakness too) and then approach the situation considering those things.

If you are asking me why I picked out the "run-of-the-mill" phrase, I suppose I did because that is the type of adulterous WW the Harley's plan seems to be most effective for.

If a woman (WW) has the "follow your heart" philosophy as her moral compass, and always has, I myself have a hard time helping her. In part, because we do not share common values, but also because her feelings cannot be trumped by other values.
You know what I mean?

I would bet dollars to donuts this type was once an OW. Sometimes I run across a poster that you can "hear" the entitlement in their posts and the childishness response to other posters suggestions. Most OW I have run across are 15 year old girls in a woman's body.

FF, "follow your heart" gets people into trouble while "follow your values" might not feel as good, but "following core values" is not the road to perdition. Following feelings can be.

Don't necessary believe that the "run-of-the-mil" WW cries, turns to alcohol, or has any physical signs of internal conflict. If anything I think is't just the opposite since it appears most WW are in exit As and are already emotionally divorced from the BH. I doubt H's FOW had any guilt at all. H was her exit A. I think a bigger distinction is if the WS is a cake eater vs a WAS.

Interesting.

However, I prefer to use this thread to try and consider the best way to help a WW here on MB - and not use this thread to figure out what the OW is doing and why. OW's were not my concern when I began this thread. I don't try to help OWs.

Thanks.

You could be your head against a wall bloody and still not help the "follow your heart" type.

What worked for me as your "run of the mill" WW?

Although I thought I "loved" OM, I longed for my H's attention. I couldn't look myself in the mirror, in fact still couldn't after the A ended UNTIL my H was finally told the truth.

Since my H did not know about the A, what helped me was a combination of

1. Dr. Laura
2. Listening to Christian radio
3. A book I picked up at our neighbors house while H and them studied the Bible. It was called "Running the Red Lights". No idea the author. I also picked up a book called "His Needs/Her Needs" at their house. H and I read that one together.
4. Listening peripherally to their Bible Study. Watching my neighbor behavior toward her H. (respect, submission to his leadership etc)

I think that these considerations are vital.

Ah, but that's what I'm questioning. That is the type of adulterous WW that the Harley plan seems to me to be designed for, but its effectiveness seems to be weak with a WW who has completely altered her values. I suppose I'm agreeing with the view often expressed by BHs here, that WWs are a tougher animal to kill than WHs.

Type 1 shifts her values to engage in the adultery. If she is discovered before this shift has gone too far she can be won back to the marriage. If discovery comes after a long time, and especially if OM is prepared to take her on, she has altered her values so far as to no longer see her marriage as legitimate. Recovery is then almost impossible. How does that sound?

Yes I think I do, but perhaps her values can be trumped by bitter experience.

Type 2 gets used over and over again. Men are only too happy to provide her with flattery, attention and even a few gifts. None, however, is prepared to take her on, and especially not if they have a loving, self-respecting W at home, who has not lowered her dignity and neglected her children the way his AP has. She eventually learns that she disrepects herself by her own behaviour and she stops. How does that sound?

Of course, I'm describing my H's OW in the second case!

Type I is also more prone to the EA. It sums up my husband pretty well. AP was an old girlfriend and it wasn't physical (not that it hurt any one damn bit less).

Did the fact that it was his old girlfriend make the affair easier or harder to break? Did he have deep feelings for her?

PS: are we officially talking about men too, now?

Me personally i think the difference between WWs and WHs are simply just a difference in men and women regarding relationships in general.

My guess would be that 99% of WWs had already "left the marriage" prior to their As, because most women have to be EMOTIONALLY invovled in a relationship prior to being PHYSICAL.

Most men start out with the PHYSICAL aspect and then it turns into something EMOTIONAL.

That is IMHO of course.

Just that there is more to all of this than meets the eye (which is what i took from your post) and that we are both confused i guess .

I tend to agree with this as well.

I do not agree, i think it is in the people not their gender.

Me too. Why is that I wonder aloud.

Can I go with both versions of WW suck?

#1's problem is she is weak, but the biggest plus is that she does struggle with the wrong she is doing.

#2's problem is she is an emotionally defective person, but the biggest plus is that she may be strong enough to put her foot down and break the cycle if she wants better for herself.

Maybe the WW starts out like #1 and then turns into #2 (pun intended) gets arrogant thinking she's da bomb, believes she has OM wrapped around her finger and laughs at her BH and BW for either being clueless or doormats.

My head hurts. lol

Agreed. FOW's H turned her into road kill.

Of course they both suck ! But don't you think that MBers trying to reach the "mill" WW could approach appealing to her core values while that approach would do NOTHING to impact a "non-mill" WW??

I think the "non-mill" WW needs to feel tremendous and impressive consequences before she'd consider making any changes in her lifestyle.

LOL (Here , take a tylenol for your headache)

I think it made it harder. It started weirdly and ended weirdly but it really did end.

I agree but then I think about if she is hopelessly weak and can't even keep NC...

I dunno. Trying to make sense of a wayward mind is like playing PONG, back and forth, back and forth.