I would not look at your list as describing two different WW's, but more like the same individual, at different stages. The first list, the WW after the initial foray into infidelity. The second list, the same WW after a period of time. I also think there are characteristics of WW's that are unique to stages that would come before and after what you have listed.

Assuming we are ignoring the pure sociopaths that are out there, I sometimes think it is better to define the WW in terms of "where" they are in their A. As an example, to me, your second list describes the WW at the peak of their fantasy.

I suppose one could theorize that WW's go through many stages and some stages are harder for the BH to deal with than others. In some stages the WW is "run of the mill" where in others, they are not.

Like this ~~~> :crosseyedcrazy:

I deal with waywards in real life. Men and women, but more women than men. (I've done hundreds of pap/STD exams every year for 29 years) And I pay attention to what women say and how they say things. There is no sense to nonsense, but there is understanding what motivates certain types of people. That's why people are so interesting, they are motivated on several planes at once. Some motives are primative, and some are more elevated and lofty. And that conflict in values and desires is where MBers can put a crowbar to apply pressure in the right place.

Boy, the NOT-so-run-of-the-mill WW is the OW in my situation TO A TEE!! In fact, with this description alone, someone could pick her out of a lineup!

I've thought about this too. A continuum process. This theory appeals to me, however, it does not match my observations.

rprynne - can you think of a few examples of the continuum theory? Past WW's from this forum perhaps? I'd like to explore that a little bit more.

(like I said, this theory is attractive to me, but I don't recall seeing any examples on MB)

Agreed. And I agree with rprynne and both SCs and everyone else. So there lol

I don't think this can be true: characteristic 1 of type 2 is "Previous adulteries or cheated on boyfriends." Type 1 surely goes deeper into her affair with ONE MAN, rather than having many affairs. This cannot be the same person on a continuum.

Characteristic 4 is "Not "head-over-heels" in love, but loves the attention." However, surely Type 1 falls deeper "in love" with this one man as the affair progresses; she does not love him less with time. So again, there is no contiuum.

I think can we cannot ignore the sociopaths, because they are type 2. People who do not recognise normal moral values and do not care whether they breech them or not are sociopaths. People who are married (to people who have normal marriage values, not to swingers or polygamists) and yet see nothing wrong with having sex with other people, ARE sociopaths. I agree with Pep that it would be hard, and perhaps impossible, to appeal to the moral values of a spouse who thinks it okay to tom around while married.


I don't agree that the WW at the peak of her fantasy with OM, whom she by then "loves", displays the charactistic "Not "head-over-heels" in love, but loves the attention." I think she alters her moral values and mentally leaves the marriage when she is at the peak of her fantasy.

Sorry Pep, I only do abstracts

Ok, in all seriousness, I would imagine it is hard to see pure examples of this because people are notoriously bad witnesses. Their current state influences their observations of previous states. But I do see this continuem in some of Mrs. W's posts. (Specifically around the time Mr. W decided it was over). I'm not sure of her name, but I think the thread on inside the wayward mind also gives some insight on this. Essentially, one can group many of those steps into stages or states of minds that would describe the WW and indicate certain behaviors.

For me, their is likely an unhappy/trigger stage, (i'm unhappy or an old flame e-mailed me), a exploratory/experiment stage (i'm going to sign up on a dating site and see what happens), an evaluation stage (how am I feeling - start/stop/continue/escalate?), an execution stage (I've made my choice), and a review stage (how'd it work out).

Many times, I think this comes down to situational vs. dispositional attributes to behavior. (The two best known experiments on this are the Stanford Prison Experiment and the Milgram (I think) experiment). Most people are appalled by the concept of situational attributes to behavior, but I tend to think it gets proven over and over IRL.

I consider myself a pretty typical WW based on this list:

1. No previous adultery
Never, never crossed my mind that I would ever have an affair.

2. Her adultery choice knaws her conscience and she has difficulty reconciling her behavior with her beliefs.
I began therapy, medication for depression, journaling, just trying to make sense of what was happening, of what I was doing to myself

3. Physically suffers with a guilty conscience. Difficulty sleeping, eating, concentrating.
I literally developed wounds on my legs that would not heal, and exacerbation of a manageable skin condition, but it went wild during my A.

4. Has fallen head-over-heels "in love" with OM, which is often an old flame.
First love, soul mate, the man I should have always been with

5. Has spiritual/religous beliefs she must ignore in order to "follow her heart".
I talked to a preacher and multiple therapists, looking for guidance. Oddly, the preacher told me that my marriage had been dead for a long time and my plan to leave my H was OK (and yes, he knew about the EA)

6. Cries frequently but privately.
Yes, mowing the lawn was time for me to have a good cry, plus in the shower and while kids were napping

7. May turn to alcohol to numb her conscience.
I managed to stay sober during the A, but did use antidepressants and antipsychotics prescribed by a MD

8. Feels powerless and overwhelmed by her feelings of desire.
It was just mad, mad, obsession

9. Hates herself.
Unbelievable self-loathing

10. Cannot look at her husband or others who trust her without feeling worse, so begins to avoid people who love her.
I may be a little atypical here. My BH knew every step of the EA, first contact, knew of daily contact, knew of first meeting. He knew when I tried to break it off and he knew when contact started back up. And, I must be surrounded by morally corrupt people, but everyone who knew about, seemed happy that I was finally leaving the marriage. I guess they were just trying to be supportive, but I wish they had warned me about the spiritual bottom that was heading my way

I looked at the list as a whole instead of line item by line item. I think the over riding theme on the list is around guilt and conscience.

While many think dealing with guilt is matter of one's morals, I tend to think more often it is a matter of consideration. Meaning if you don't think about it, it doesn't bother you.

It's this "consideration" of guilt that I see change in a FWS that suggests this list describes one WW at different times. As many will say I knew it was wrong, but I did not care.

I don't understand this. There are TWO lists. The characteristics of the WW on the first are the opposite of the characteristics of the WW on the second. The first list shows a WW with a conscience and the second, one without. They are opposites. How can they be on a continuum?

I would disagree. See my comment on situational attributes to behaviors. Which in a nutshell means non sociopaths can behave like socipaths in certain situations.

I think you are right to a DEGREE, but she is describing a starting point, not a way station. I read Type 11 and I clearly see my own father, a serial cheater who was married and divorced 8 times. He was not a sociopath, but he had killed his conscience at a young age and simply "followed his heart." He had no values whatsoever, other than do whatever feels good.

He did not recognize any system of right and wrong. The MB program would have been worthless with my father. Exposure would have had no effect, because he had no shame. He would never have done POJA because his middle name was FREE LOADER. He only did what felt good at the time and everyone else could go to hell.

This is very interesting and makes me wonder how effective MB can be with someone who does not know right from wrong. And I do wonder sometimes if my dad wasn't mentally ill.

BTW, exposure would have been a POWERFUL tool against my adultery.

Not necessarily true. I did "love" OM less over time as my eyes were opened to his true character and the disaster I was making of my life (not to mention my children's lives)

I believe a WW who has a ONS may initially exhibit a majority (not all) of the behaviors on the first list. Were she to continue the contact with the AP and continue to escalate the A, over time she would start to exhibit a majority of the behaviors on the second list. Opposites exist on a contiuem, just they exist on opposit ends.

WHICH is WHY I choose to fight for my marriage.....

FWIW, the "run-of-the-mill" applied to both my WH and COW......except that they were not former flames...

the absolute guilt and shame on his face EVERY time he came around was crushing to watch.....

I only know that it also applies to COW because of her emails......
while I would rather her be the second one, because that one seem more callous and pathetic, its not. Between her emails on the guilt, them going to he77 for this, and what her H told me, it applies....


not2fun

Surely someone who has "no values whatsoever...did not recognise any system of right or wrong...had no shame..someone who does not know right from wrong" is a sociopath?

Have I misunderstood the meaning of "sociopath"?

No time to look it up now; got to get the supper on! Someone look it up for me, please!

FF,

I am not sure that I realized you were a WW and a BW? Could you give me a quick time line of the A's. I struggle with forgiving myself and is this my karma and this is really all my fault and would love to have someone to bounce stuff off of.

Not specific to your post, but I use sociopath as a catch all term for any number of mental disorders. I'm no expert, but I believe not knowing right from wrong is asocial personality disorder, and yes, I don't think MB works for people with mental disorders.