"Most BSs at least entertain the question that their WS may have been a very clever sociopath all along"

I know - I remember my H saying something similar to me more than once in those first few weeks after d-day.

My H has had a couple of serious EAs, but I never thought he was a sociopath, though. Narcissistic, maybe. I mostly thought he was mean and dumb for not admitting or realizing how his behavior affected me and the kids.

I never felt like I had been a closet sociopath all along. Maybe I didn't realize or admit what I was capable of doing, but I don't think I was purposely hiding my "real" self, or pretending to be someone else. I was just as shocked as anyone else by what I was capable of doing.

Hi KiwiJ-

Good list, but I wonder if it all boils down to:

OM's want sex on the side!

Except, now that I think about it, my H's EAs were clearly about wanting an emotional attachment and admiration, which fits with your list, I think (I can't see the list at the moment while I'm replying).

My H has a pretty strong moral core which is probably why he found himself entangled in an EA vs a PA. He had plenty of opportunity for the EA to turn PA--she would have flown to his city, or met him in a 3rd city, booked the hotel room, etc. etc. Offered to get him a secret phone.

I didn't understand how he could do what he did (still don't--I was not happy in our marriage either but I didn't get sucked into an EA) but I think if she hadn't been an old girlfriend, he wouldn't have done it. For some reason, he allowed her to contact him every so often throughout the years after their breakup and made it worse by keeping their 1-2x/year conversations a secret from me. When we were happy and our marriage was healthy, it probably wasn't an issue. The conversations were all 'how are you, how old are your kids' variety. What set it off was seeing her at a HS reunion, our marriage was in the toilet, I had emotionally withdrawn from our relationship and she just pushed every button he had and fanned the spark into a flame.

If he didn't have that moral compass, I think he would have found himself in bed with her.

When I first read the title, I thought I should stay away. The way some threads have been going, I wasn't sure where this was going to go. It's an interesting discussion. Thank you for starting it, Pep, and thank you everyone for keeping it constructive. I'm learning...

According to http://dictionary.reference.com, sociopath means:

–noun Psychiatry. a person, as a psychopathic personality, whose behavior is antisocial and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.

I am like #1, except for #1 and #4. Interesting that KiwiJ's descriptions in the other 8 could be my own.

1. No previous adultery
Incorrect. I cheated on my BF when we were living together, 2.5 years before we married. Technically not adultery to some, but it is 100% betrayal to most and to me.

2. Her adultery choice gnaws her conscience and she has difficulty reconciling her behavior with her beliefs.
Correct. 'How could I? Because H hates me. But I'm committed to H? But OM loves me. But what about the BW? But OM doesn't care about BW so why should I?'

3. Physically suffers with a guilty conscience. Difficulty sleeping, eating, concentrating.
My first ever anxiety attack (scared the crap out of me), days of stomach pain where I laid in bed, first time EVER in my life I've lost weight due to stress. Family and friends were worried. I lost lots of hair.

4. Has fallen head-over-heels "in love" with OM, which is often an old flame.
Totally immersed in my "true love" who was a co-worker and good friend for over 5 years. (Hurts just typing that.)

5. Has spiritual/religous beliefs she must ignore in order to "follow her heart".
I'd say prayers and just kind of gloss over the whole infidelity thing while talking to God. Wouldn't even ask for help because then I'd have to admit my sin. Like God didn't know it?

6. Cries frequently but privately.
Everywhere. Grocery store, car (a lot), bedroom, at my desk, unloading dishwasher, in church, in the shower (apparently a popular place), while working out, alone on the couch at all hours of the morning...

7. May turn to alcohol to numb her conscience.
Heck ya.

8. Feels powerless and overwhelmed by her feelings of desire.
Completely out of control. My life revolved around whatever FOM felt like giving to me that day and whatever I could keep from H that day.

9. Hates herself.
To the core. Still not sure how much I like me.

10. Cannot look at her husband or others who trust her without feeling worse, so begins to avoid people who love her.
I crawled way underground. I still don't socialize with my GFs like I used to because I pulled so far away from everyone due to shame.

KiwiJ -- It is scarey how word-for-word and spot-on your list of how the OM feels and treats the WW matches my FOM. It actually triggered me reading it and I'm tearing up again, because it put into words what I've come to know in my heart, but have never had to stare at -- right in my face... Your OM description is like the official manual my FOM was following during the affair, in perfect order. It disgusts me how I didn't see it -- how little the OM thought of me while filling my head with lies and how little I thought of myself. I don't know if it would have done any good while I was in the throes of it all, but I wish I would have seen this list of OM characteristics a year ago. I wish I would have pulled my head out of my backside and run to my H back then.

Hindsight is truly 20/20.

Thanks again, ladies, for the open and honest discussion.

My FWW cheated on me prior to us getting M'd. Does that count?



I never got the impression that it "knawed at her conscience". More like she justified what she was doing because she was tired doing things for other people and she wanted to do something that felt good for herself instead.



I noticed none of the above.



Last OM was a co-worker that started working with her about a year before the A started.



I thought that my FWW was more "spiritual" and "religous" than I was. Post-A, she told me differently. And her explanation of how the A happened was not suggestive of someone "following her heart", but more of someone engaging in something because it felt good.



If she did that, I rarely saw it.



Nope.



Concerning feeling "powerless", I never got that impression from her during her A. Just the opposite in fact. She appeared to be much more sure of herself than usual. More confident. As for her being "overwhelmed by feelings of desire", I can only deduce that some of the things she chose to do with the OM (sex at the office with the OM, sex at home with the OM while I was at the office, the other places she chose to do it) do suggest that at times she was "overwhelmed". I think generally though that wasn't the case - otherwise sex with the OM during their A would have occured a lot more often.



Never got that impression from my FWW.



Never got that impression either. Nothing noticeable changed in our interaction that would suggest she was avoiding me because she was feeling worse.

BTW - I looked over the Type II list and found that much of them could not describe my FWW either. I think she's somewhere between the two.

Yes, indeed.

You might be interested to know that I think a lot of this has to do with brain function. The neurotransmitters that stimulate the pleasure/emotion/bonding parts of the brain are probably overwhelmed and flooded during adultery. And when the effect of those neuro chemicals wears off, that's when the despair and the cravings kick in. Your rational mind is not in control.

I'd love to see a PET scan of a brain during adultery and compare that to a brain during drug addiction. The HIGH and the CRASH are probably very similar.

And there is a difference between male and female brains. (and I'm NOT refering to size, so don't even go there)

I'm sorry I don't have a PET scan to share, but I do have a little neurotransmitter experience that you may find interesting.

During the long distance EA portion of my A, I was in therapy and seeing a psychiatrist. I started on regular antidepressants. Prior to finding "first love" OM, I was suffering from some post partum depression and then 9/11 sent me into a tail spin.

So after the EA started, the OCD kicked in and the obsessive thinking was out of control. I was started on antipsychotics, two different ones were tried. From my understanding, they were meant to control dopamine surges.

Something I recall from my journaling at the time. While I was taking the antipsychotics, my obsessive thinking about OM (who was still a long distance EA) slowed down considerably.

I recall writing that since the antipsychotics were keeping thoughts of OM away, it must mean that he is psychotic!

Intesesting info regarding sociopathy from Wiki:

Sociopathy:

When selecting "Antisocial personality disorder", you will find this:



I have bolded what I believe are common to most WS's in affairs. Deceitfulness and lying are the backbone to adultery. That a wayward risks their children and family is blatant disregard for themselves and others. And I believe the last statement about rationalizing hurt and mistreatment of another describes the wayward fog pretty well.

In addition to these common features, many WS's exhibit the others as well. For example, my WstbxH certainly exhibited impulsivity and failure to plan ahead, irritability and aggressiveness (not to the extent of physical threat but increased rages any time I didn't agree to go along with his plan to boot me out and bring her in), and consistant irresponsibility with respect to financial obligations. I'm sure other BS's here can see additional traits in their WS's.

Now, he certainly wasn't sociopathic before the A and never exhibited any one of these diagnostic criteria before. So what happened?

Looking at it clinically like this reinforces my belief that adultery is due some type of mental disease that can be "picked up" or "developed" over time. This along with the spooky similarities between everyone's stories about the behavior of their WS's.

I do remember hearing something on the radio once about sociopaths, that they may be more prevalent that previously thought (Wiki says 3% of men, 1% of women) but that a number of them are more functional sociopaths. Depending on a number of variables (education, socioeconomic status etc), a sociopath can actually be very successful in life without ever being "caught". Though their behavior is not affected by any conscience or morals, avoiding negative consequences and/or achieving positive rewards will motivate them. The show suggested that may successful businessmen and politians actually have undiagnosed antisocial personality disorder and that their lack of conscience contributes to this success. I wish I had a link for this in case I completely misinterpreted it or my memory has been skewed, but it certainly seems plausable.

Interesting that you mention that. Although H's EA didn't happen until 2005, I always mark 9/11 as the beginning of the downward spiral of our marriage. It sent him into a severe depression. Then he got pneumonia--which I'm convinced also had something to do with being run down and depressed from 9/11. In early 2002, he lost his job.

So Pep,

My superficial impression(without going back and counting properly) is that most WWs spoken about on this thread fit your "run-of-the-mill" classification. However, some are not easy to place, and there is some agreement with rprynne's "continuum" observations. Rose55 saw herself on both lists at different times:

I think I must agree with the theory of overlap or continuum. Whilst the lack of consideration for others, justifying one's own actions and referring to an usual value system is probably mandatory for serial cheaters and gourmet cake-eaters, it also a mindset that non-serial, non-promiscuous WSs must develop to some degree during the affair. Even when they develop boils and warts (or whatever), the affair must make them happy in some way, so this agony cannot be permanent. Also, they do succeed in appearing to be contented to the H, some if not all of the time. They are able to text the words "I love you" to OM and then go out for their wedding anniversary dinner the same evening, having given H a card with the same words written on it - and perhaps be sexually active that night. There must be some degree of compartmentalising in order for that to happen.

Do you still feel that there might be two different types of WW? If so, how would you tailor the advice you would give to BHs?

Compartmentalizing is the ONLY way a somewhat decent person (normally) could live a double life. I don't believe I was/am capable of the absolute cruelty of the "in your face" affair. I was deeply ashamed of what I was doing but at the same time getting EN's met by OM felt good. It took me quite a while for the guilt and shame to outweigh the "positives" of the A.

I actually think there are more than 2 types ! The 3rd type is a woman with a bonafide life long mental illness. The 4th type is an addict.

Myself, I do find looking at the lists I made up yesterday very helpful. The more important question is #1 on each list. Would you agree?

I do agree (although I think that more discussion here can easily sway me!). Perhaps the only relevant distinction is between WWs whose adultery is out of character and those who for whom it is, or has become, normal.

Do you think that these "number 1" characteristics, if you could be sure about them, would affect your advice?

I don't think so, I know so. It's one of the first questions I ask.

YES !

This is practically an ADVERTISEMENT for why exposure works for type 1 WWs.

Increase the negative as much as possible.

I am just observing that we often cite a changing of the WW's value system (their morals) as an enabler to an A. If that were the case, then they would feel no guilt about the A.

Since many FWW's claim they felt guilty the whole time, yet continued to the have an A, I'm theorizing that at least for some, their value system did not change, they simply chose to not think about what they were doing (which reduced/removed the guilt).

If you are saying that choosing to not think about what you are doing is an immorral act, I won't argue with you about that.

Yes. I think it is huge evidence that the A was not an abherration of character, but status quo.


I would also argue that it is the best course of action for the "type 2". Your last sentence I what I think most BH's miss. For whatever reason, they assume that the way to entice the WW back is increase the positive in the M. To proove they are the better man. It seldom works. The BH can't bring themselves up to the fantasy level, but you can bring the A down to the real life level.

Yes! For me, if my H had truly not listened to my claims that we were "just friends" and had comes across as a strong male, the leader of our home and really taken the reigns out of my hands I am certain the A would have ended much sooner and with his self respect intact. I can see looking back that I had very little respect for my H back then (and obviously for myself). In fact when my H saw what I had done to our finances during that time (I was very careless about our bills during my A), he really did "man up" and my respect for him began to return. I hope this makes sense, I am in the midst of PMS right now.

Hi faithful follower –

“if my H had truly not listened to my claims that we were "just friends” and had comes across as a strong male, the leader of our home and really taken the reigns out of my hands I am certain the A would have ended much sooner and with his self respect intact.”

Do you mean before or after he found out about your A?

Do you believe your H has to be responsible for (or control) everything you do? I’m not sure I understand what you mean. It seems to me that the A can’t really stop (NC, getting through withdrawal) until the WS takes control of her/his behavior. I can see that the BS can take steps to squelch the A (exposure, “bringing the A down to real life level”), but in the end, the WS is the only one who can make the WS stop.

Lol. I’m not sure my post makes sense either...

Rose