I don't think it is a mental disease.

Freud called it the id, ego and super ego. Some call it the child, parent, and adult. Others call it the conscious, sub-conscious and pre-conscious. Harley uses giver and taker. Some call it the devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other.

Whatever its called, all people have an element of themselves that seeks to feel good regardless of consequences. They also have an element of themselves that seeks to always be moral. Finally, they have an element that negotiates the conflicts between the two. When this third element is no longer "operating", (or siding with the first one too often), irresponsible behavior occurs.

I think this is rarely a disease state. It is a situational state.

I think that really troubles a lot of people.

I'm so happy you are contributing to this thread.

Before, cuz he didn't officially "know" about the A until 8 years later.

No, I don't mean control at all. What I mean is I really didn't think he cared about me, our M or anything else. I falsly thought he was aware of my A but didn't care. Some of this thinking was probably used to "justify" what I was doing but the longer he bought into my excuses the more I believed it to be true. Later when he found our finances is such a mess he really stepped up. He took my credit cards away (rightfully so) and took over the bills. He got us out of the mess I made. My respect for him grew. He was beginning to look like a man to me and not just a room mate. During this time we got pregnant with our youngest DS. H was so amazingly strong and encouraging during a really tough birth. I fell head over heels in love with him.

You see I needed someone strong, not someone that let me do whatever I wanted.

As for this making it easier to end the A? I don't mean my BH was responsible for my actions, I meant that the stick would have been more effective than the carrot.

FF-

OIC!

“if my H had truly not listened to my claims that we were "just friends” and had comes across as a strong male, the leader of our home and really taken the reigns out of my hands I am certain the A would have ended much sooner and with his self respect intact.”

I was just thinking that it makes sense he wouldn't have done those things before knowing about your A, because he wouldn't have had a reason not to trust you.

I understand what you're saying about thinking he knew about the A and just didn't care. I convinced myself of things like that during my A, too.

"You see I needed someone strong, not someone that let me do whatever I wanted."

I think what you're saying is that you wish he wouldn't have accepted your independent behavior. As an aside, though, why would letting a wife do whatever she wants to do (within reason - not have an A, of course) mean a H is not strong?

Rose

My FWH and I read through this thread and have found it very interesting. Usually, I don't ask him to read particular threads unless there is something I think might be pertinent to us. In this case, we both identified the OW as more of a "not run of the mill WW". Recently, he admitted to "wondering how WW" was doing. He says he did not want to contact her, but was thinking about the context of the result of the A. In any case, this thread was a good venue for discussion about her character and additional reasons about why he does not need to be concerned about "how she is doing and whether she is ok" - not worth his time or interest. So perfect timing for me.

I have been troubled by the several BHs here that seem to have the "deer in the headlights" paralysis. I think maybe the carrot and the stick of plan A might have some gender differences, i.e. for WHs, more carrot, not so much stick and for WWs less carrot and more stick. I don't know really.... I certainly delivered a hefty dose of stick in my situation.

Thank you for this thread.

AM

You were including all of us in that, weren't you?

It sounds more than likely to be too little, too late. For a self-respecting BH, that is.


From what I have seen the past several years on MB, garden variety adultery is pretty much where the recovery successes, such as they are, lie. I cannot recall even one successful LTA, VLTA or serial adultery recovery.

Yes

I think the problem that I would have had with this line of thinking is that it makes a BS feel as if the WS has to be forced to love him and forced to behave as they promised.
Many BH's are already being accused of being "controlling", "jealous", "paranoid" etc. To have to confront and take measures to force your spouse to show you respect and love feels demeaning. And with the accustaions about control flying, you back off.

Getting back to how it's possible to be eaten up with guilt and suffer health problems and STILL continue with the A, I found the payoff from the high of the A countered those feelings. I tried to compartmentalise but couldn't. The A took over my life. My family were very aware "something" was wrong but never considered an A. They all thought it was work related and I used "work stress" as my excuse for my unusual behaviour.

I smoke and I know what it's doing to me but I also continue to smoke. The payoff (though I've no idea what that is - I just love having a permanent cough and a wheeze and stinky breath ) must make it possible.

I didn't really even look at the #2 WW, but after Rose's comment that she fitted that description in the throes of the A I'll revisit it.

Happy to participate. It's an interesting thread.

One other thing I wanted to say about your list.

It reminds me of when I was talking to my IC.

He said 90% of the people he sees come to him because they know they have something wrong. They are getting by, but whatevers wrong is starting to be more of a problem.

The other 10% come to him and say they feel fine. They are there because for some odd reason, nobody can stand them.

He said he usually has very good results with the first group and usually completely fails with the second. It's just very difficult when someone thinks they are fine and everyone else is messed up.

So, it makes me think (whether it is two types of WW's or one WW at different stages), that I would add on your list, type 1 views the A as a problem. Type II views the A as a solution.

I think this is the disitnction between folks that have problems and those that are disordered. From what i have read and from talking to my therapist, it seems the disordered simply refuse or are unable to see that their fundamental view of life is off kilter. It is always someone else's fault. And, they sincerely believe this. So, it is really tough to help them.

It comes down to that old saw "if you think you're mad, you're probably not."

Oh man,

rpynne said

Then Zelmo rephrased it

Then consider Ap's thoughts on VLTA's and I think we have a WINNER.

I have always thought, that Dr. Harley thought, that many folks marriages could be saved...BUT NOT ALL OF THEM. Harley actually says this but as far as I have read he sort of limited this to people with addictions as not salvageable unless the addition was addressed. Now if the above quotes have merit and Ap's thinking has merit (which I do agree with as well), what is being said is that there is a class of folks for which the concepts of Love Banks, Needs, meeting NEEDS, respect, and self-respect really have no or very little meaning. If that is so, then the MB approach offers very little leverage with regard to ending the affair and rebuilding the marriage.


Interesting, very interesting.

Good Thread Pep, interesting and insightful comments everywhere, I LOVE IT.

God Bless,

JL

I saw this thread the other day and wanted to make a post but didn't have time.

After reading most of it I think my WW is in the same catagory as BC's.

Has some of both characteristics but overall is in catagory 2.



Interesting thread with a lot of neat points.

I have encountered here LTA and serial adultery spouses who describe their marriages as recovered. I suspect that you would not accept their definitions of "recovered". I suspect, though, that you would not accept most people's definitions of "recovered".

Your saying "where the recovery successes, such as they are lie" suggests that you believe that recovery is a very rare thing, and that most people are settling for the best they can get in a bad situation. They cannot admit that and instead kid themselves that their marriage has recovered.

Rose, I am not sure if I am clear enough. I knew instinctively that independent behavior from either of us was not good for the M. Not to excuse my A, cuz there is no excuse, but I tried so hard to get his attention. It was always elsewhere. I begged him to spend his energy on our family, not strangers. I really think some of this was my acting out because he wasn't paying attention to me. The longer he allowed me to go off and do whatever I wanted without question (independent behavior) the more I questioned his committment to me. I was not asking for a parent or a babysitter, I wanted to feel wanted, liked etc. Arrgh, I am not explaining myself well. For me, personally, I want my H to be someone who is not afraid to say no to me. I have that today. We are a team. We discuss almost to the point of POJA. He is not afraid to tell me "no or not now". I LIKE that. If I wanted to be a single parent, I would not have gotten married.

Zelmo, I think THAT is one of the problems with many BH's around here. They FEAR their WW so much, once she yells the word "controlling" they back off.

I am telling you from my POV, the stick would have been the most effective on me.

HI FF -

"I want my H to be someone who is not afraid to say no to me. I have that today. We are a team. We discuss almost to the point of POJA."

You explained it well - I get what you mean. I didn't mean to give you a hard time, I was just wondering. Thanks.

Rose