I haven't been able to keep up with this thread while at work, but I think that all waywards, both WWs and WHs exhibit many characteristics of both NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) and BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). I believe it is because an affair is one of the most self serving, selfish, narcissistic acts that you can commit and that only by allowing yourself to manifest those traits can you even have one.

But what I think needs to be looked at is whether or not any of those traits and tendencies existed before the affair in order to determine if there is much chance at recovery.

For what has been described as the Type I, I think a reasonable person would suggest that those traits were not always present, though they are during the affair. For a Type II, those traits really are already there and even though an affair might not have happened, the wayward is an affair looking for an affair partner. The Type II always had motive and ability but only requires opportunity in order to commit the crime.

For many who come here as a BS not much thought is actually given to whether or not the marriage should be saved. Even at its best, the marriage was highly dysfunctional because of alcohol, abuse, uncontrolled spending, drug addiction, and other selfish acts known collectively as simply Independent Behavior.

I have seen many who while dealing with a wayward spouse, usually men dealing with a wayward wife, that have been absolutely convinced that the WS was plagued by NPD or BPD. The solution seems to be to get the WS help in dealing with this disorder and THAT will fix the marriage.

But the reality is that an affair is the supreme act of selfishness and so it will contain any and/or all traits of any disorder that has at its root showing care only for oneself. What a BS has to do is look at life before the affair to see if those same things were there and if that is the case, there really isn't much that can be done because the affair is just the latest act that reflects the condition and even when the affair ends the condition will not change. Some people are simply broken beyond repair and cannot or will not change their behavior for the good of anything or anyone else since they live entirely for themselves.

But anyone CAN change, though not many do change. What we are really discussing here are probabilities of recovery and avoidance of a repeat. The Type I list speaks to the character of the person who made a mistake in a moment of weakness, probably because they did not recognize that weakness until it was too late and they were already involved.

The second list describes a person who has shown that their character is somehow defective and that the probability of them really changing is pretty small. Though anyone on either list might turn around and become a faithful and loyal spouse, there are some who have shown by their history that they will not likely change.

These are the ones whose spouses we advise to skip the drama and humiliation and go to Plan D. The problem is that seldom do they want to face the reality of who they have married and so we end up helping them fight for a marriage that really lies well outside the bounds of a normal distribution. It really becomes obvious very quickly that the marriage is doomed, but more to the point was doomed from the very beginning. And yet we fight on because we are passionate about marriage and any marriage in peril with even a remote probability of succeeding is worth the fight.

Past history means a lot. Who among us would have married the person we did if we had really known what they were capable of and yet many of us fought tooth and nail to save the marriage when it appeared that all was lost.

Type I is a person who messed up big time. Consequences of their choices cause them to become introspective and look inside for answers.

Type II is a person who has shown that they don't want to change anything about themselves. Consequences mean nothing, because life is all about them and what they want. No consequence causes any introspection at all.

Type I is a buyer that has fallen to renting.

Type II is never more that a renter and is usually nothing but a freeloader.

WoW

THIS *link* is one of my favorite examples of how someone really, really LOST and HOPELESS can change.

My XWW was definitely a type II. She had been in affairs as an OW before I met her, had bounced checks like crazy, lied to me about having a college degree.
Lying was second nature to her. I really thing that the WWs you describe as type II are personality disordered types. Since infidelity is so rampant among this type, personality disordered people are dispropotionately represented among WSs.
Look at their histories and the way they are inareas other than merely the inability(unwillingness) to remain faithful.
You'll see a history of lying, finanacial irresponsibility, verbal and emotional abuse. In general, they leave a wake of destruction.

Have you read the book

People Of The Lie by M. Scott Peck?
*link*

I think knowing about the Clustr B personality disorders can be very helpful. One is wasting one's time trying to recover a marriage after infidelity if you are dealing with the disordered. So, it helps to realize your best course of action is to get out.

Sometimes a man marries a woman with a personality disorder because it fills a need of his.

Have you considered that?

No, I will look for it. I've read a lot about these pd's. I had never heard of them before all this.

Hi Zelmo –

“One is wasting one's time trying to recover a marriage after infidelity if you are dealing with the disordered. So, it helps to realize your best course of action is to get out.”

Would the WS need to be diagnosed by a professional before the BS filed for D? What if a spouse has a disorder (or disorders), and is willing to get help, and is able to change, and his/her marriage vows included “in sickness and in health?”

Do you think there is also the possibility that everyone has a “disorder” of some kind, to some degree?

hmmmmmm.....very very intersting Pep......The rescuer syndrome perhaps???....(I've been watching this and seeing how it applies to my Mom and Dad's marriage.....)


not2fun

Hi FF -

"Rose...You are such a blessing, I hope you know that."

I just wanted to see that in print one more time. LOL. Seriously, thanks for the compliment.

“But, I think if you offer to stay and offer to get them help and it is refused and the behaviors continue, you have fulfilled your vow.”

Zelmo -

I agree. Especially after infidelity occurs. Actually, after an A, the BS doesn’t even have to do that much, come to think of it.

I was quite committed to trying to get my XWW help and to get counseling for us. Each time I was derided and insulted. This is pretty typical, from what I understand.
It all boiled down to that she would not stop cheating, would not stop bouncing checks, would not stop raging, would not stop buying things we had no use for. So, the decision became clear. Not easy, but clear.

ok, Mark, I have to admit I read dat whole damn thing because I just couldn't stop after getting to my THREE PARAGRAPH LIMIT! And I was well rewarded for my effort because that is an awesome post, ADD be damned!

I so agree with everything you said and can equate this to alcoholism. The alcoholic personality is DESCRIBED in Type 11. That is US. You know how many alcoholics ever sober up and really change from a Type 11? TEN PERCENT. That is it. I think some people are just so fundamentally screwed up that there is not much likelihood they will ever choose to change. They can change if they want to, but few want to.

Dr Harley doesn't recommend Plan A with alcoholics either. I think that is something that might be considered with Type 11's. Plan A is of no effect with an alcoholic, because they are so messed up that it is impossible to meet their needs. Nor did the affair of most Type 11s even start because of unmet needs; rather it is usually because of their character. Like you pointed out, cheating is a just a character trait of theirs.

still thinking.....

That is very sad, Zelmo, I'm sorry that happened to you.

Thanks. It is a fairly typical story involving a relatioship with a cluster B disordered person, apparently-verbal abuse, cold water dousings in the shower, emasculating remarks, overspending, lying, and, thankfully, infidelity, the one final straw that finally got me off my co-dependent [censored] and out.

HI Zelmo

i am interested to know how your w presented prior to marriage ?

Hi Pepperband

My response

There is a formula for solving problems which was taught to me by a librarian once.

She said that most issues can be addressed by the use of 3 words.They are WHAT is it WHY is it so and HOW are you going to deal with it.So far you are at first base and have identified the what of the problem very well indeed.

IMO You cannot proceed to third(HOW)base until you have dealt with the WHY factor.The WHY being an intrinsic part of the problem.In this case the behaviours are a symptom of underlying personality problems and maladaptive strategies in both type 1 and type 2 examples