I don't think shame is a "flaw" when one is doing something they should be ashamed of. She should feel ashamed, adultery is shameful. It would be a serious "flaw" if she did not feel appropriate shame when she committed shameful actions; then we would be discussing characters like Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, etc. The fact that she HAS shame tells me she at least has a conscience. SHAME is our conscience's warning system that we are in violation of our conscience.

She is running from the consequences of her actions just like a typical self centered wayward who is also a coward. It is easier to run than face the pain and misery of your rape victim. This is nothing more than a typical wayward stunt of picking a fight with your victim, and then when they REACT, run off, get drunk, and call up your adultery partner for consolation.

Shame is not toxic and flawed; ADULTERY IS toxic and flawed. The only thing normal about any of this is her shame.

I agree she needs to be allowed to fall. That will be the only thing that changes her; facing the consequences of her actions. With an alcoholic, for example, the only thing that will motivate him to change is PAIN.

Mel, the point is that she apparently has been doing this her whole life. Her whole life is wrapped around hating herself, and therefore looking for ways to 'self-medicate' (affairs, booze) to (1) escape the hate or (2) justify the hate.

Getting someone to agree they shouldn't have an affair is pointless if they are bound and determined to ruin their life and anyone else's who hangs on to them.

She is very much like an alcoholic who is nothing more than SELF WILL RUN RIOT. She is profoundly selfish and continually looks for ways to FEEL GOOD even though she knows how badly it hurts others. She hates herself because of her behavior. Unfortunately, selfishness and pleasure seeking always lead to a life of shame of degradation. [shameful behavior causes shame, as it should] The answer is to let her hit bottom just as you suggested.

I hated myself too when I acted like a scumbag. Funny how that all changed when I started acting in ways that didn't warrant hate and disgust. feelings follow actions, feelings follow actions, feelings follow actions.....

Yes, I know. I keep trying to save her. I can't.

Mel, I know you don't believe in therapy, and I do. So we'll just have to agree to disagree.

And when she reaches HER bottom, not OURS, G-d will be there to give her the answers on how to dig out. It's so hard to watch someone go down in life, but it's her journey, not ours and we can only be there when she truly wants help. My experience is to get in her way would prolonge the destructive journey.

No Zen, you can't save her. She can only save herself. But you can pray for her. And you can decide whether you will be there for her when she is DONE and wants to come out of the hole she is digging.

BINGO!

I understand this. Will I be there for her? Well, I'll be moving on with my life. I've been paralyzed by this for 5 months now, and I won't keep letting it go on. I suppose if she could make some huge turn-around and somehow demonstrate the change - after quite some time - I won't rush out and marry someone else. My life is no longer one hold though.

I remember someone posing this question somewhere: Do the BSs who put their foot down immediatly fair better than the ones who are too afraid to lose everything and just keep moving their boundaries? I think it's probably true. It's tough to say because I think her progress has been a little more sincere each time during our FRs, but it has also made the stupid affair this thing of destiny for the affair partners. Who knows. I guess the last 5 months have been so I could look back and say I gave it my all and then even more.

Z: I remember having this same conversation with you many weeks ago...talking about giving it our all, running a marathon and not a sprint. Working on US and not being able to change the WWs.

You have worked your tail off Zen. You have become a better person, a better father and a better husband. For FIVE long months you have endured the pain and suffering that an affair inflicts on a betrayed spouse.

And for what? Because you love her and want to protect your family. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, what you have done is the most noble and honorable thing a human being can do! Congrats to you for hanging in there for such a long time.

Zen, we are here for you! We support you in any decision you make. I know I've flip-flopped my opinion of Coho several times. I'm sorry I haven't been a more consistent voice on this thread. There are times when I think you can work this out and have a successful marraige. And there are others times when I see how much you are GIVING and how much she is TAKING and how horribly she is treating you...and I'm sad. I know, I absolutely KNOW you are going to do the right thing for Zen. And for your kiddos.

Do what's right for *you* and your family.

Strenght my friend. Strength.

Thanks DNU1. Yes, we've had this identical conversation at least once, probably several times. I will do what's right. I just need to be away from her. I will ask her to leave. I hope there's some tiny honorable bit of her in there that will agree, but I fear she'll just hunker down at home and continue the affair. The worst possible scenario! I am getting my ducks in a row.

Zen,

If your wife refuses to leave, she could become very Belligerent, especially if she is drinking. She may become very bitter if you don't give her another chance. Not that she would do anything different, even if you did. What kind of environment will that be for the kids? Even if she moved in with the OM it would be better then having her around the kids that way. She is very self destructive but that can turn on you very quickly, in fact it most likely will. Because if she blame shifts and makes you the bad guy it will allow her to not focus on her problems.

Oh yes, I totally fear this. I hope she stays decent, but who knows at this point.

Hi, Zen. I read this and wonder...

Why are you living in fear and hope?

What are you doing this very moment? I understand if you don't want to share what your plan is, knowing Coho is probably reading this. But what is your plan -- even if it's just to get through this evening?

What is your plan for tomorrow?

Don't let fear and hope control what you do. Be smart. Look at what you know. Look at all that you have before you, look at all of your options, and take whatever action is right for you. Enforce previously set boundaries. Make new boundaries. Establish your living situation. Go grocery shopping. Make Easter eggs. Call a friend who can help. DO something.

It's time to be pro-active, Zen, not reactive.

Thinking of you...

-L4

you cannot expect her to try and hurt you less. She will do what selfish people do. She will think of what she wants. Not whats best for you or your kids. She said she will give up and leave if you want her to. I guess now is the time to find out. At least if she did that, there would be some hope that she has an ounce of moral fiber. After she called him and you found out and cried. She will now give up on trying to go without seeing him. She will figure why not, I already ruined things again. Then she will fall and come back asking for you to forgive her again. JUST SAY NO THIS TIME. AND GO PLAN B OR D. Its time.

Yes, that's what I'm doing.

when she does come back, please do one thing before you listen to anything she has to say. Read your posts on your thread. We're all pulling for you.

Please follow former advice, print out this thread and have the mods remove it. Same for Coho's thread. You posted that she promised to sign anything. If you feel she's going to backtrack now, you need to protect yourself.

You can always start a new thread.