"WhY?"

That is what every BS wants to know. "Why did she/he do this to me?" "Why were vows so easily broken?" And the best of all "Why didn't I see this coming?"

Grunzburg suggests that even asking the question "Why?" is a waste of time and effort. When a BS asks the question what they seek is something that will somehow explain it so that they can accept it. The problem is that nothing can be an acceptable answer because there are no acceptable answers as to why someone would do such a thing.

This from Grunzburg.:
• Some people cheat because they aren’t getting their needs met within the marriage and are under the deluded notion that going outside the marriage to get them met is a legitimate answer. It isn’t.
• In some cases people cheat because they have never learned to honor boundaries. They know the boundaries are there, but do not hesitate to step over them.
• Some, usually men, think that they are not real men if they turn down an invitation from someone attractive.
• Some people are thrill seekers who just can’t pass up the opportunity to get a thrill. The very fact that they are doing something that is considered taboo compels them to engage in an affair.
• Some may cheat because they have low self esteem. They get a sense of self worth from finding someone who is attracted to them and cares about them.
• In some cases, a person may have a sexual fetish that their partner is not willing to meet, so they go outside of their marriage in order to have these selfish desires fulfilled.
• A very common theme is that people cheat because their spouse no longer makes them feel special. These people go outside the marriage thinking that someone else might fill this gap.

Whatever the reasons, cheaters cheat because they have the mistaken notion that going outside their marriage will solve their problems or fulfill some unmet need or complete some aspect of their character.

And this from a post on my Musings thread:


And from the same post:

And I concluded with this:

Now I don't usually quote myself very often, but I wrote this some time ago and I think it applies to this issue. And since I'm basically lazy, I didn't feel like rewriting what I had already said before.

But I think "Why?" is way over rated when it comes to adultery. It's a question that might be relevant but has no ramifications as far as recovery goes. Not knowing why we do something does not mean we are helpless to prevent ourselves from repeating it again.

As an example, Dr Harley points out that annoying habits are love busters. These are little things we do without thinking at all. These are things like taking our shoes off and leaving them in the middle of the floor, or dropping our dirty clothes beside the hamper instead of in it or maybe belching at the dinner table...

We don't need to understand why someone does those things. And the person who does them doesn't have to comprehend the reasons that they do them. They only have to modify their behavior and stop doing them.

You see, in our society folks are always looking for why someone acts inappropriately in order to let them off the hook for their responsibility in committing a wrongful act. We blame mothers for making their sons into serial killers and fathers for making their daughters frigid marriage partners. We blame lack of opportunity for a gang-banger who shoots three 6 year old children while shooting at someone who might or might not be a member of a rival gang (he's not a very good shot either) and we think that if we could just get a handle on "WHY" these things are happening we could fix them...

The problem is that the people who are acting in a wrong or hurtful way are the ones that need fixing and we can't fix them at all. They have to fix themselves.

As it applies to marriage, we don't have to know why the marriage is broken to rebuild it into one that can last. Just like you don't really have to understand why the foundation on the house cracked if you can identify what was done wrong the first time and how to prevent it from happening again. In some cases the existing house can be repaired but in many if not most the house needs to be torn down and built right from scratch.

And this is the real why to infidelity. We allowed our relationship to fall into disrepair and maybe didn't have the right foundation to begin with. When the weakness of the basis of the marriage was revealed by a crack in the walls of the marriage, we put a coat of paint over things and assumed that it would be alright all by itself...
Until the day the house fell down and then we asked "Why did this happen?" This happened because "WE didn't do things right. If we do things right it won't happen again. If we do things the way we always did them, WHY bother putting it back together at all.

For the BS:
How did I let my marriage get this way?
What can I do to make sure I never show such neglect again?
As for "why?" I'll never understand it anyway.

For the WS:
How did I reach a decision that cheating was right or acceptable?
What can I do from this day on to make sure I never repeat those actions again?
"Why did I do this?" Because I didn't do anything to stop myself from doing it/I'm selfish at my basic core (as are ALL people)/I failed to protect my marriage from my evil desires.

Some couples remain together till one of them dies of old age and are perfectly happy without ever knowing why a wayward spouse cheats. They simply build their marriage in such a way that neither of them cheats.

I don't have to understand what takes place in the brain of an alcoholic that causes them to be addicted in order to stop drinking. I don't need to know what nicotine does in the way of blocking or triggering certain neuro-receptors in order to stop smoking. And I don't have to understand the way I became selfish enough to become an adulterer in order to stop the adultery. And as a BS I don't have to know what I did wrong to make sure I do things right in the future because I wasn't the reason the affair happened. The choice wasn't mine and I don't have to prevent it, my WS does.

Mark

myopia, I don't want to t/j. Suffice to say it was pretty much the standard masking technique used by NPD/BPDs during courtship. A very physically attractive package and very nice personality. Pretended to love me and my kids from a prior matrriage.
The mask came off in short order, after marriage nad pregnanacy(enmeshment ) and , soon, she was acting crazy and abusive. It was a horror show.

I guess maybe we have a different definition of "why" because to me the things i put in red above are the "WHY".

Well, in a word, no.

True, most people will not change, but also some people cannot change.

This everyone can change stuff is a like a medieval superstition. We now know some people’s brains are damaged. We now know some people’s thinking is damaged. Beyond repair.

Many actions and conditions at one time ascribed to demonic possession are now known to be scientifically induced. Evil may someday be thought similarly. That was what Peck was trying to do, in fact. Develop a psychology of evil.

There are known mental diseases that impel people to actions beyond their ability to resist. It is only a matter of time until science reveals the underlying programmatic inevitability of some people’s evil.

Mark,

While I agree with the "why" from the BS asking point of view, I disagree with your assessment of "why" from a recovery point of view. In my opinion, until the WS knows "why" they did what they did, and can take actions to address it, there really is little chance of recovery. Why? Because the BS has no hope of trusting the WS until the Ws takes actions based on "why" to establish and protect boundaries.

However, in decision of the the types of WW or WS, the type II is unlikely to ever ask themselves Why?, thus they are unlikely to ever change or develop the ability to protect the marriage. Ap's comments about change are dead on in my opinion, I do believe people can change, but I also believe that a variety of issues can present themselves so that the person has no interest in changing or simply cannot address the issue of change. It is their pathology to not change.

JL

Sweet.


This may just reiterate what Mark posted, but I think it helps because the BH needs to discover the true nature of the WW. In the back of my mind, I have always thought of exposure, plan A, plan B, the 180 plan, etc. as "tests" to determine the true nature of the WW. Essentially we are "testing" whether the behaviors can be atrributed to the situation of the WW or the disposition of the WW. We do that by changing the situation. If the WW's behaviors do not change in response to that, then we can conclude their actions are more driven by their disposition, rather than their situation.

IMHO, everybody's behavior is driven by a "mix" of their disposition and their situation. (This is at the core of Harley's we are all capable of cheating). Many people hate that conclusion (both for themselves and their WW's), yet accept it as matter of fact in so many other areas of life.


I guess I will somewhat disagree. This not to say that I think there is a "why" that makes it right. But there is a "why" that makes it acceptable. (As in, I can accept that reason).

For me, I see it as a pretty basic model. Person is in pain (irrelevent as to whether it is real, imagined, has merit or is self created). Person seeks to reduce pain. Person chooses between options based on what they assume will have maximum effect for minimal (or proportional) effort, regardless of "morality."

I put morality in quotes because in IMHO, people will constrain themselves by their internal moral code so long as it allows effective options. Once it does not, they will expand that code. Usually to legal limits, and usually only to the extent of potential punishment. (and even then, they will expand beyond that, if those limits constrain effective options).

I think where BH's struggle with "accepting" this is because they hold onto their illusions of uniqueness and justice. By uniqueness I mean they operate under the assumption that this model does not apply to their spouse and further, even if it did, they themselves are so unique that their spouse would suspend this model for them. By justice, I mean assuming that "bad" things do not happen to "good" people. These illusions culminate in the "How could YOU, do this to ME? I don't DESERVE it."

Which is essentially saying "Can you explain this behavior, given that you are special, I am special, and people get what they deserve?" Strip out the conditionals (i.e. you are not special, they are not special, and deserve's got nothing to do with it), and it's pretty basic.

I think people spend a lot of time raging against this reality.


We also know that brains can be "un-damaged".

I agree completely. 100%. This fits right in with the Harley MB behavioral psychology approach to adultery where people are mere helpless automations responding to externally applied stimuli (i.e. ENs). It’s a type of system identification. Hit the circuit with an impulse and see how it rings. Give the WS a kick in the pants and see how they respond. A very good way to identify their higher level control circuitry and what type of adulterer they really are.

BTW, I think 99.99999% of all adulterers are Pep’s Type II. Very, very few, a tiny, tiny minority, are Type I. Although, many of those II’s are very good at camouflage and misdirection.


We do? News to me. Perhaps you should tell this to the doctors treating the guy I read about who lost something like a 1/8 of his brain in a car accident. He can barely speak and he cannot see vertical lines. But he can write better than he could before. Oh, and he is now a SA – when he wasn’t before the accident.

"BTW, I think 99.99999% of all adulterers are Pep’s Type II."

More tosh.

What makes you think that, Aph? The implications of that, if true, are that WS's are essentially irredeemable (mostly by their own choice) and that most BS's should really just start D proceedings soon as they learn about the affair (after some plan A'ing, including exposure, to see if it stops the affair of course).

I don't think he would agree with the "helpless" part. Nor would I. As I posted in my next paragraph, people's behaviors can be attributed to a mix of situational attributes and dispositional attributes. You have tended to argue that it is all dispositional, i.e. people are who they are and act irregardless of situation. I believe you may be trying to discredit Harley (perhaps I am misreading your post) by claiming he argues that people's behaviors are completely situational. I don't think he agrees with that.


I used the "We" in response to you. You implied that people can not change because they are damaged, that this damage is irreversible, and that "we" know that. This is not my area of expertise, but I am aware that many findings suggest the brain changes throughout our life times (where previously it was thought that it stopped at adult hood). I am also aware of people who suffer head injuries are capable of accessing different parts of the brain to accomplish tasks. People aren't hard wired, they are wet wired. So while physical damage may be irreversable, their are ways to continue to function. Which is why I said "un-damage". I lacked a better word at the tip of my tongue, since it is clearly not a repair or replacement.

*Pep Quote...Mrs. W answers in red...


______________________________________________________________


Okay, first, rprynne, YOU DAWG, you were talking about ME while we were on VACATION...gaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh!!! :twobyfour:

We're back now, soooooo...

Secondly, can you please 'splain what you meant? (Btw, Mr. W never verbalized any "deciding it was over" to me...)

Mrs. W

It may be that Aph is expieriencing what I did, a completley remorseless, disordered, cheating spouse. The temptation for me is to extrapolate and assign these qualities to most cheaters. I think I might view things differently if I'd had some signs of contrition or acceptance of responsibility like some other BSs have.
Initially, I viewed most WSs as disordered(type IIs) simply by virtue of their having cheated. But, I can see now that some are just really messed up but not neccessarily personality disordered.
But, really, if your Ws is displaying type II stuff, examine how they are in other areas with an eye for discovering a personality disorder.

AP,

While I do know of people with seemingly no feedback circuits, I do think that most WS do have them and in fact use them. I think the pulse you are taking about not only helps to identify what type of WS they are, but given that they have a "feedback circuit" as I would claim most Cat 1's do, then in fact recovery is possible and it "ain't necessarily so" that once a cheater always a cheater.

I know your personal experience is far different from mine other than the fact that the woman I was engaged to that cheated on me, went on to end up murdered by one of the men she selected. I do feel she was definitely a category II. However, I have known more than a few folks that have recovered their marriage after an affair.

In fact, some of those folks still reside and post here.

The lack of a feedback loop (conscience and the ability to learn from mistakes) does exist, but most people stay potty trained, most learn not to repeatedly put their hand in a fire, most learn not to pick on people bigger, meaner, better armed than they are, most learn even that drunk driving is bad for them.

In short, most people can learn, do learn, and will learn IF the motivation is sufficiently strong. I'll go even farther, and point out that we train men to kill when it is against their nature, they go to combat kill people, come back and turn into civilians and never kill again, although life being what it is who has not thought of "dusting someone", especially if that someone cheated on them.

So I submit, people can learn and that means that "once a cheater always a cheater" is NOT set in stone.

JL

First off, you guys vacation a lot.

On the deciding it was over, maybe I am remembering someone else, but I thought Mr. W once posted that he got to a point in time (coincidently, I think prior to a vacation you were taking) where he decided that it was hopeless and that he was just going to enjoy the "last" remaining time together.

On 'splaining, Pep presented two lists to describe two different types of WW's. I theorized that, in general, the two lists could represent the same WW at different times during the A. (I use the "in general" qualifier, because I do not think it applies to every bullet point on the list). Pep asked for examples of WW's that demonstrated this possibility. I suggested that you are one.

This is not to say that you actually demonstrated any of the behaviors on the second list, it was to point out that you, in general, seem less fearful of discussing how you actually felt during different times during your A, so you would be a good person to comment. The reason I consider it important for the person discussing this to be less fearful is that answering the question truthfully requires an authenticity that most people are not capable of. Sometimes they are not capable of it due to deceitful purposes, but most times it's because we can't help that our "present" tends to color our intrepretation of the "past."

For example, many FWS's will say they felt guilty the whole time during their A. This could be an incorrect intrepretation of what their feelings were, based on the fact they have chosen recovery. One could argue that what they actually felt during some part of their A was pity, not guilt.

LOL that we vacation a lot rprynne...We wish! I can see where it seems that way though...we do have a good bit of freedom since we are the bosses and all...

And ahhhhhhhh, okay, I get what you are saying, Mr. Detail-Oriented!

Yes, it's true that I will say EXACTLY what I'm thinking or thought (as best I can) - sometimes to my detriment around here, but NEVER to my detriment at home...The credit for that goes to Mr. W...He is very calm and unemotional - That's not to say that he has no emotions - just that there is nothing off-limits in discussion with him...He's an excellent listener and helped me work through TONS of stuff...

I suppose I didn't fully elaborate on Pep's first list...Guilt? Yes, all the time, but sure it was mixed with other things as well...If guilt was the only thing I felt, I suppose I wouldn't have done what I did, no? I don't think "pity" was something I felt - "self pity" for sure - I had the typical wayward mentality after all...I was incredibly conflicted, which is why Xanax seemed like such a great idea - ugh...turns out that was a bad plan, who knew? I think it's likely impossible to describe every "feeling" that a WW has - they change with the wind...at least mine did...

As for the second list...I'll give it a shot...


So there ya go...I'd still say that the first list applies to me the most - as would Mr. W...

Mrs. W

ETA:
You are sorta correct...no vacation - just summer...I wouldn't say he thought it was "hopeless" - just that if I didn't "get it" in rather short order he would not wait around while I continued to be a giant pain in the patootie...He did not verbalize those plans to me however, but getting to that place certainly brought about a change in the way he was towards me...He became his old confident self again and I got on board rather quickly when that happened...THANKFULLY....

Fair enough.

I wonder for those that consider themselves type I, if they had not been "caught" and ended their A, if they think eventually more of the characteristics of type II would apply.

My premise being when people are doing something "wrong", it creates conflict and they can only sustain it for so long. (This is Type I). They either "get right" with the wrong (type II) or they cease doing the "wrong", and thus are not actively wayward.

This is just speculation. But, I cannot see how a type 1 morphs into a type2. IMO, the type 2 you describe is some sort of sociopath and folks don't become one of those over time.
I wonder what is the overriding flaw in type 1's?

Ok. Are you saying this doesn't apply to WW's or people in general. I mean plenty of politicions, movie stars, professional athletes, business leaders, etc. seem to make this transformation.

May be a chicken and the egg argument. But, I think it is pretty well accepted that personality disorders do not develop in adulthood. They are longstanding.
The characteristics you describe,rp, seem pretty much in line with the cluster B disorders. The history of cheating, the remorselessness, the facility for lying, the blameshifting. All these are PD characteristics.
If there are a lot of PD's in the professions you mention, I suspect it is because PD folks are drawn to them as they provide a source of narcissistic supply. I don't think a healthy person entering those professions gets transformed. And, I'm not sure PD's are more hightly represented in those professions. It may be they are just more visible and identifiable in these public professions.
In any case, really take a hard look at what you describe as a Type 2 WW(and this could easily apply to a WH, as well). These are folks with a history of this, without remorse, essentially inveterate liars and manipulators. No way cheating alone causes someone to become this many standard deviations from normal.

If WW is in an exit A or looking for attention, she could start off as type #1 and struggles with the deception. When she turns into #2 is the question. Has the A gone on so long that her deceptive behavior becomes second nature? Is she defective and honestly doesn't see anything wrong with what she did? Is she type #2 because she's been hurt in life and takes an attitude of she'll screw you over before some else does? Even then is she a sociopath or does she only look like a sociopath because she hates herself and doesn't want to admit it or let others see it?