Some theorize that sociaopaths, NPD's, BPDs etc are all in some form of pain, primarily due to self hatred. We think of NPDs , in particular, as being overly in love with themselves. But, some fols that have researched this say that , in reality, these folks have a lot of self loathing and the behaviors we see demonstrated mask this as they seem to reflect the opposite.
I just cannot see someone that is not disordered demonstating the level of comfort with lying, etc. And, of course the type 2 described has a history of this type of thing.
If you have a type 2, I'd say it is hopless and you should run. Easier said than done, I know.

I some times wonder about FOW...

Her BH claims she is a nutcase and always had been. Since I don't know the type of person his WW was before her A with my H, I can only guess that there must have been something good about her for him to have been married to her for so many years. H was her exit A. After H dumped her, her behavior seemed like that of a type #2...sadistic and warped. But for all I know it was an act because she felt like a fool and wanted to give off the appearance she didn't care...laugh it off so to speak.

I don't care whether she is type 1 or 2; she'll always be trash to me but I do wonder how many WW's LOOK like 2 but they are really ashamed of their behavior (#1).

I almost forgot about this question of yours.

Yes, I believe they are connected. The connection is inherent in your type two list:


1. Previous adulteries or cheated on boyfriends.

Well, they do have to start somewhere, don’t they? This type of behavior, especially in young people, starts out as a follow your heart (# 5) thing but quickly becomes a control mechanism. They can’t juggle multiple intimate relationships without learning how to be in control of each one of them. In fact, you will see young people who live this way avoid or terminate a relationship they do not feel in control of. And they quickly learn how to lie to their lovers, of course.

2. Barely recognizes her conscience.

Again, they probably had one to start with, but it is highly eroded by they time they marry for the first time.

3. Works out, feels good, sleeps like a baby.

Varies, IMO.

4. Not "head-over-heels" in love, but loves the attention.

Debatable. My wife was head over heals in love with VLTA OM, but she also likes the attention. She really likes the attention. From just about anyone.

5. "Follow your heart" IS her compass in life.

As #2 conscience erodes so does their heart. It become more of a follow their nose for attention than follow their heart. But then again, my wife loved her OM and had for a decade. It seems to vary.

6. Cries for an audience, especially when caught.

Bingo. It’s part of the love for attention and need to control. It’s part of lying and an addiction to drama.

7. May drink, do drugs, but does them to heighten her sense of pleasure.

Or any comfort substance. Food, drink, drugs, work, activities. Anything to distract their thoughts, their focus, away from their reality.

8. Feels powerful and in control.

Definitely. Control is what it is all about. Control and feelings of superiority. Her VLTA was a work place affair with another senior exec. They kind of thought of it, when they bothered to think about what they were doing at all, as a power affair not that much different from daily wheeling and dealing in lowly employees lives. Executives are entitled to do whatever they want, don't you know.

9. Loves herself. Why not?

Ehh, not so sure. 1 through 8 is so they don’t have to think about this one much.

10. Can look people straight in the eye and lie her [censored] off. Then go to bed with OM(s), then come home and kiss her BH, her children, and have a good night sleep. No problem.

It is interesting to me the order in which you put 1 through 9. They are a direct linear progression to number 10. The only one I would have moved is number 2 – to right after number 5. It may take some adulteresses longer than others but they all arrive here at number 10 eventually. And once they do they never leave. It has become by this time a life sustaining reinforcement feedback loop to number 4. By now they have no empathy left at all. And empathy is not something anyone ever retrieves once it is dead and gone.

Dunno rprynne, the thought of that terrifies me...I feel so incredibly blessed that I was caught and steps were taken by Mr. W and my mom to save me from myself...

I can say this, I have long thought that you can sometimes measure the possibility of a full recovery by the wayward's family...meaning if they have a "follow your heart" and "whatever makes you happy" attitude then you aren't likely to see a huge turn around...I could certainly be wrong about that...I just know that for ME, my mom and the moral background that she had given me played a huge role in my turn around...You know "teach a child in the way they should go and when they are old they will not depart from it" deal...

Mrs. W

Still_Crazy ....

I started this thread to help forum members think about how they might best approach helping betrayed husbands. Applying the MB plans toward the "run-of-the-mill" wayward wife is usually pretty successful. On the other hand - if a betrayed husband is dealing with a betrayed wife from the second list ... that makes helping the betrayed husband a lot more difficult and (let's face it) controversial.

So - there you are ... I was trying to help our betrayed men, once again.

I think the biggest problem is actually getting WW's here, or to work with the MB pros.

As has been said already, many/most of them are in exit affair mode and the BH probably didn't even see it coming, so he didn't even know he wasn't meeting needs, LB'ing etc.

So even if he gets religion, even if he is a real man since that's been a recent topic, it may not even matter.

So how do you stop or slow down the typical WW and convince here there is actually far more hope for the marriage than for the affair that at the moment seems so fun and exciting.

Not even Steve Harley was able to put together a plan that accomplished that, so what is the solution?

The vast majority of (non-sociopathic) WWs are Type 1.

They may "act out" some type 2 characteristics, but in quiet moments alone, they wallow in guilt and rationalization--admitted or not.

Now this thread is bumped I don't have to go looking for it.

In a similar vein there are two types of WWs (they're usually WWs) who post on MB.

Funnily enough, the ones who are the "worst" usually turn out to be the "best". Read my early, early posts. There's enough justification and fogginess to sink a ship. All the FWWs I know here (the genuine ones) were like that. LOL, Myrta, with her first post to me "F*** off".

Then there's the other sort and we've seen a few of them lately. The appeasers, the admiration seekers, the liars. That's why I choose very carefully which WW I post to. JL, who is the best WW defoggifer in the business, has been notably absent from those threads.

Enlightened Ex, Steve Harley has indeed put a plan together which addresses WSs. That's why I'm here.

It's kind of strange you ask the question "how do we get WWs to see the light" or words to that effect. You posted on a thread from a WW the other day and basically said. "NC, get over it, how simple is that".

Of course you are right. That's how simple it should be, but it isn't. My H recognised that and knew that which is why we are still married. Steve Harley recognises that - he knows about withdrawal and fogginess. That's why that WW has now gone forever. I read and read and read and printed out all the articles from the main site. The one I read over and over was how to "get over" the A.

Good for you although i do not have any idea why you are telling me this

I will leave your threads alone if it bothers you so much that you have to call me out just for voicing my opinion.

Because you must have seen the light. Few do, wouldn't you agree? I'd say for every FWW we see here, there are another 9 or 10 that show up and reject the idea that their marriage can be improved by Dr H's plan to restore romantic love, eliminate love busters, etc.

Because that OW believed that what she was doing was wrong. So she already got it, she just had to do it.

Fine, but as I said, most WON'T read and take in that material. They reject it. They either think things won't get better, etc.

More later, gotta run.

I'll spend a little more time on this this time. It may be repetitive, so bear with me please.

I don't question that MB is a fine plan. My question surrounds how many WW's embrace the plan? I worked with Steve Harley as well. He clearly said it's far more difficult to win a WW back than it is a WH.

Why is that?

As many have said, and even Dr H alludes to it, if not outright saying it, it's because she has emotionally walled off her husband. She's already emotionally divorced him, and never even told him what she was doing.

And if you read, Dr H says you can't tell her what she's doing is wrong, you can't even expect her to admit she has hurt her husband or apologize. I'm not talking during the affair either, but after recovery is well established.

Dr H clearly says for a BH to never expect an apology from the WW.

So how do you even get a WW on board with the plan if you are to never expect her to think what she did was wrong?

I don't mean beating her over the head with, "You did this to us." But rather the normal expectation one has when they are hurt by someone who loves them. If one hurts another, they should apologize as soon as they are aware they've hurt another, AND take steps to make sure it never happens again.

If there is no reasonable expectation of this apology coming, according to what Dr H says, then how many WW's are really worth letting back into the marriage?

So how do you convince the WW to return and embrace the program? I don't know. I think that those who maintain a sense of entitlement, and/or those who cannot swallow their pride and admit that their actions were hurtful and wrong will never return and try to build a marriage.

And, in the long run, that's probably good for the BH.
It really is that simple. It's not easy, but it's that simple. There is a difference between easy and simple. Sometimes, in this medium, it's not clear.

The steps to MB are pretty simple, eliminate LB's, meet EN's and romantic love returns. However, doing that is not an easy task, as folks tend to resist change. Old habits die hard, so change takes time, practice and often patience and forbearance.

How many WW's are offering their husbands patience and forbearance while they are in their affairs? None, they are giving all of that to their lovers. Every LB by the BH is magnified out of proportion, the ones by the OM are minimized. On the other side of the scale, every attempt to meet ENs by the BH is minimized, treated with suspicion, while little notes are treated as if the OM build the Taj Mahal for her.

So it really hinges on the WW believing that what she did was wrong.

KiwiJ, I believe you did that. I believe you couldn't live with what you were doing. You looked at yourself and decided that you didn't like what you saw.

AND!!!!! you did something about it.

But how many WW's don't look at themselves. They look only at the failings of their husbands? Since their gaze is eternally outward, they never face the fact that regardless what they feel are the failings of their husband, their affair has just escalated the Love Busting to a nuclear level. What was once a low intensity conflict just went nuclear with their decision to have an affair.



Of course Steve knows. But he also knows few WWs actually respond.

I'm glad your WW is gone forever.

But please understand that your situation is not typical. Most WWs are gone forever because they become XWW, not FWWs.

I don't believe this to be accurate. I found this link discussing apologies and there is no doubt more. Since you say he's clear about it...maybe you've got something else in mind.

Mr. W

Coping with infidelity: restoring trust

Actually, it's spelled out here:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5033b_qa.html


Also, in what you wrote, I notice Dr H. says the apology is not necessary, but makes things better.

He also couches his advice,


Why so soft? Only apologize "if possible, to override their Takers..." He doesn't say apology is a requirement for recovery like NC.

I don't think Dr Harley expects most waywards to apologize. He certainly doesn't require it, he only suggests apologies assist in recovery.

It might depend on which "Harley" you're talking about.

Only one "Harley" is a Dr. I don't think Steve has his doctorate.

I don't think I've quoted Steve's writings here.

I admit, I'm sometimes frustrated because Dr Harley seems to contradict himself from time to time.

Really, I believe a lot of it is who he believes can effectively deliver the message.

The WW in the state of withdraw is not going to "hear" or respond to her husbands requests, let alone demands for disclosure. But that same WW "may" listen to Dr H, or Steve, or Jennifer when they tell her that her unwillingness to be open and honest is in the way of getting her emotional needs met.

In the same fashion, the BH isn't going to want to hear from the WW how he failed to meet her needs and that's why she decided to have an affair. But that same BH may listen to expert counsel that explains how important it is to meet needs, etc.

So in many cases it seems contradictory because I believe Dr H advocates the counselor telling the respective parties the things they won't hear from their spouse, but will hear coming from the counselor.

But you have to get BOTH the WW and the BH to listen to the expert 3rd party, and I'm not convinced many WW's are willing to enter into that counseling relationship with Dr H or his team.

Enlightened X, when I said "plan" I probably meant the article which stood out to me when I first came to MB. It was a letter "how do I stop the A" or something like that. It really spoke to me. I came to MB before D-day and read but I didn't look at the forum area until after D-day. Actually, I did look at the forum briefly and couldn't work it out. I'd never seen an internet forum before and I didn't "get" what you were meant to do. I first googled "infidelity" just after the A ended. I was in a mess and I was looking for answers. The books I bought after the A really showed where my thinking was. They were "Relationship Rescue", "How to mend your broken heart", "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Separating Successfully". They really do sum up where I was at in my mind. Two books on "staying", one book on "leaving" and one book on "how do I stop being so foggy" (the "broken heart" one). Those books brought about d-day when my H found them.

This is really the long way of saying that I had hope that my marriage could be saved but I also didn't hold out much hope. I was too foggy and didn't think a) what I'd done was surmountable in terms of our marriage surviving and b) whether I'd ever find my way back to my H. It's also the long way of saying I was half way there which brings me to your point of "how do we get WWs to see the light". I was willing to listen and learn. I was desparate to save my marriage.

I've never asked the FWWs I know how they came to be here. I know that some are here at the request of their BH's. Others found their way here. I can only suggest that ALL of WSs who find themselves here read the articles on the main site.

I agree entirely that it's simple but not easy to become an FWS. I was just like all the other WSs we see. I blamed my H for "not being there", I even wrote in my letter to him in response to his (love) letter to me just after d-day that "he'd become old" (and more) then wondered why he was so upset by my letter.

Sorry, I'm going off on all sorts of tangents here, not really addressing what you've said, but I'm writing as it comes into my mind.

Most people here know that we had a second d-day when I reconnected with the OM after two years of NC. Something hit me last night like a sledgehammer. I think it was Pep who said something about people spending their time on MB joshing with their friends and doing everything but marriage building. When I first came to MB I spent all my time listening to advice (good advice), posting to people in my situation, giving BS's insight. After two years I thought I was a completely recovered FWW and had all but stopped reading any threads apart from my friends' threads. My boundaries were down, I was smug and self righteous. I'd forgotten why I was here.

I apologise again for the "stream of consciousness".

This is probably the best concise summary of how (MOST) WWs behave and the results that can be expected. As an xBH, I have lived it in full flower (and with immense frustration) and seen it with others' marriages multiple times.



I wholeheartedly agree with the last sentence. Although equally loathesome, a WH is FAR more likely to incautiously venture into an A with little/no intention of leaving his marriage; a WW is far more likely to indulge an A an escape & exit from hers and see it as "the answer" to her problems. [Dr. Frank Pittmam -- Private Lies]. It rare indeed for any previously-decent woman to abandon her home and marriage UNTIL and UNLESS there already is another man in her life to run to. It isn't about being "strong and independent" as so many of them claim. It is rare for ANY WS to voluntarily give up a romantic affair, but it is exceedingly unlikely for a WW to do so--they are enslaved by their emotions and can see nothing else.





Yes, she considers her marriage "dead" (often with little effort on her part to communicate her discontents previously). Let's face it, in most cases a WH has "more to lose" financially than a WW who sees her OM as "a rescuer". A WW also has a greater social stigma (even in this age) and therefore a greater motivation to make the A "work" and legitimize it rather than return to her BH.


This phenomenom appalls me even though I know it to be true. It seems that WWs have a tremendous sense of selfish self-entitlement in a romantic affair. That fact, stubbornness, and the above-mentioned stigma all contribute to her difficulty in admiting fault and "saying sorry". I have lived this to the fullest and doubt I will EVER hear a sincere admission and any genuine remorse from my xWW, despite her role in destroying 2 marriages and devastating children forever. She just thinks that "God wanted me to be happy" and that everyone else just needs to "get over it".



There is NO way to get her "on board". With very rare exception, she doesn't even consider this until she hits "rock bottom" -- i.e., the OM dumps her or her A-relationship becomes miserably unfulfilling and burdensome for her. I applaud fWWs, like KiwiJen, who "saw the light" on their own, but they are VERY UNCOMMON.




IMO, no WS, man or woman, is worth "letting back" without sincere repentence--they haven't learned anything without it.


I agree entirely...it's either rock bottom or hit the highway.




Most WWs don't give a hoot about "how to get over the A" because they don't want to! They don't listen to warnings about the "divorce trap" & how affairs (and affair-marriages) rarely lead to long-term compatible, blissful relationships. They brush that stuff off as "desperation" and "not understanding" on the part of the BH and firmly believe that their A is "different" and "special" and "the exception". Logic and rationality are utterly a waste of time.

My xWW called me last summer (13 months post-D and 7 months post affair-age) to tell me that she "had been so hard-headed", "had taken (me) for granted too", and "was sorry for so many things". Why, I do not not know. Maybe she was feeling a burst of guilt and shame. Maybe she had a brief moment of mental clarity. Maybe she wanted to see some validation from me. Maybe she was feeling needy after a fight/falling-out with the OM/H#2. Who knows....it meant nothing as she promptly skipped back to her "new life" and hasn't been heard from since.



Been there, done that....

You guys are depressing me......Still in the thick of it...Working with Steve and not seeing any hope yet out of my delusional WW.....see's got it all figured out and is your Type I to a tee !!!!


Great discussion just hope my WW dosen't end up being typical

Now that the quotes have been sorted out for me I'll address them properly.



I read an article on infidelity that said if a man hasn't left his spouse for the OW within 6 months they are very unlikely to. I think men can cake eat with impunity. They are better at compartmentalising and they see the A as an "addition" to marriage and not a "replacement". As a woman myself, I thought to be doing what I was doing it must have been "meant to be", "fate" etc etc blah blah


Answer to problems? No - definitely not. I was not looking for complications in my life. Quite the opposite. I wasn't actually "looking" for anything, definitely not an A. But yes, once the A became a very emotionally charged A I was completely enslaved by my emotions. It seems ridiculous now - I used to listen to music and become all teary about how star crossed it all was. Now, when I hear some of those songs I think "are you KIDDING me?".



Yes, I did this but only AFTER the A began.



No, I didn't think my marriage was "dead". Honestly, I just didn't THINK. I just FELT.


During the A, EVERYONE told me what I was doing was wrong. After d-day I CERTAINLY admitted I'd hurt my H and I apologised. Seeing his hurt was one of the worst experiences of my life. Not because of how I felt but because of what I'd done to him.


Yes, during an A WWs certainly do have a sense of self-entitlement. You say xWW. EVERY single genuine FWW on this board has made a sincere admission of remorse. Even at my foggiest I never wanted to destroy 2 marriages or devastate children (grown up children BTW). The sensible part of me that was still functioning knew I would never and could never do that.




I fear this true. The OM dumped me BTW.




Where there's life there's hope. I've seen some amazing stories here of recovery and yes, some real disappointments (including my own).