Mr. Wondering,

I read the Harley link you provided but you must also admit that he also talks about "just compensation" from the WS as well. I find it hard to accept that the WS has little to no obligation to take responsibility and repent of their A, at some point. How could any couple heal without it ALL being brought out of the shadows (on BOTH sides)?

I understand the Giver & Taker concepts and why the "taker" wants apologies and responsibility from their spouse without offering it themselves. It strikes me as the same Biblical concept as "removing the log in your own eye first before complaining about the speck in your brother's..." Dr. Gary Chapman talks similarly about "tearing down your own (emotional) wall first..."

On a personal note (and perhaps this explains my perspective), I DID ALL THIS--the accepting ownership for the preconditions of neglect that brought our "crisis" to head, including sincerity, remorse, honesty, apology, humility, genuine repentance, attempting to meet ENs, etc. I did it literally DOZENS of times in every forum possible, including in front of counselors, friends, and family on both sides. I got virtually nothing in terms of reciprocation from my WW (at the time)...only spite, scorn, and deceit. She was about as close-minded, hard-hearted, and coldly unresponsive as anyone ever has been.

Unless the A has ended (and my WW's affair was in full progress w/o my knowledge at the time), it is a waste of time. NO ONE WAS LISTENING. You simply can't restore love and and "solve" marital problems while a 3rd party is in the picture. And, whatever the BS's failings before, he/she is NOT responsible for the A! The WS CHOSE that and had other choices all along the way.

My point was that WWs tend to see their "new relationship" (the A) as the saving replacement for what they feel was a failing/failed marriage and a neglectful H. The OM is "so much better for them" than their BH. My WW told me how "it was so much better" with OM because of (insert usual foggy scapegoatings & fantasy justifications here).

I know that you (or virtually any WW) didn't wake up one morning and conciously decide "to go have an affair today". But, in effect, you DID by making yourself emotionally open to someone else when he came into striking distance.



Thus reinforcing my earlier point (thanks for the correction). If the OM hadn't dumped you, my guess is that you would very likely be an xWW now instead of a fWW.

LOL, did I leave out "is".

I don't know about that - being an xWW if the OM hadn't dumped me. By the time that happened (the dumping) I hadn't been physical in any way whatsoever with the OM since September 2002. The dumping occured in June 2003 when I hadn't seen the OM since about January 2003. Believe it or not, the whole A was killing me. I was a complete mess. Even foggy me knew that the OM was not "the man of my dreams". It was so easy to give him qualities he didn't have when I only saw him once or twice a month. I knew the reality of a relationship with the OM wouldn't stand up to the cold light of day.

My H and I finish each other's sentences, we laugh at the same stuff, we have the same outlook on life. It beats me what the OM had. I mean that seriously, I have no idea what the attraction was.

SC,

I believe the vast majority of WWs are the "type 1" that Pepperband alluded to. It is VERY hard to break up a Romantic Affair (RA) involving a WW....unless the OM dumps them, it usually has to run its course which can take years sadly. It is so emotionally rooted (and women are highly emotionally-driven creatures) That they feel compelled to "follow their heart" and believe that "how could it be wrong if it FEELS so right?". Their female friends/family/cohorts will usually echo and reinforce these sentiments to them.

Logic is a waste of time on them. They will not listen. Dr. Pittman advises BSs to simply "say your peace (to a WS involved in a RA) and then go away and do whatever you have to do to keep yourself together during this time..." This is basically Plans A & B that MB talks about. Supplicating to them, attending to them, guilting them, reasoning with them -- all completely futile.

I am sorry you are hurting so badly right now and have lived your pain and frustration and sense of "powerless-ness". Here is a link on women's infidelity that explains this issue pretty clearly:

http://www.womensinfidelity.com/

Thanks for the link...Went to amazon to buy the book , they wanted $159.00 for a used $17.00 paperbook....who would have know it would be in such demand!!!! (sure it's a typo)

Facts are Facts.....Hope my WW proves you wrong.... wouldn't bet on it though.......

Maybe Steve H. will pull a rabbit out of his hat that my WW likes before I have to pull out the plan B letter.....


She is so typical in that she has it all figured out....Has her soulmate.....thinks she can balance OM and BS and everyone will be happy..... Steve H. finds it intresting the level of disconect in a outherwise logical mind....


Don't mean to interupt your thread with my stuff....the discussion has been helpful for me.....thanks for the insite...

I will say the answer isn't in the BH convincing the WW to embrace the program. It's the WW convincing themselves.

I sometimes think the mistake that BH's make with the more difficult WW's is presenting the whole "recovered M using MB" right from the get go. "Mistake" is probably the wrong word, but it sort of creates this do or die approach, that is entirely opposite of how the WW got where they are.

Most concede that the WW didn't just wake up one day and cheat on their BH, but then are stumped when they don't just wake up another day and decide they want a recovered M.

I think that point gets missed. D-day doesn't make a WW want a recovered M.

Correct! Usually it takes the WW getting dumped by OM ... which is why EXPOSURE to OM's BW is such a great tool.

Mr Pep dumped OW immediately when I discovered the A, not the other way around. Most married OM do not really want the OW as their wife.

Mr. MF did the same thing when I found out (albeit the second time), and I also agree with the second part of this sentence.

Why do you think this is different for WWs??? From these boards it appears that MOST WHs never wanted the OW to be their wife, but why is it different for WWs?

The nature of men ... if one is good, two is better.

Ewwwww...gross.

Most WH's don't want a replacement wife - whereas, I think, most (?) or many (?) WW want a replacement husband.

This is very true about WH's, mine included.

It's so interesting to me that WWs and WHs are both the same AND different in their affairs.

That is the MOTTO of any self respecting alcoholic....

Pep, that observation brings me back to recovery strategies for the type 1 and type 2 WW.

I don't have time to re-read the thread from the beginning just now, but my understanding is that you were suggesting that MB techniques stand far more chance of working with type 1 than type 2 WWs. Despite the fact that there are often overlaps in the characteristics, type 1s have put aside their normally high moral standards to have the affair. These standards can be re-invoked by the BH with some chance of success. Type 2s see nothing wrong with their lifestyle choice and so are likely to repeat the offence.

However, there has been much agreement here with the suggestion that type 1s are harder to break because in order to have the affair, they mentally leave the marriage. Your statement above supports that view. WWs are a harder case to deal with than WHs.WW are more likely to be in a romantic affair, which is often unstoppable.

So, if a type 1 is deeply enmeshed in her affair when her WH comes here, why don't you tell him to abandon all hope, grab the kids and assets and get out? Why do you think that MB techniques might be successful with this WW?

Okay, I'll reply to myself while I wait for you Californians to get out of bed.

Type 1s are often deep into the affair, feel that they are in love and want to leave the marriage.How can MB work on these WWs? What can persuade the woman who has mentally left her marriage to stay and work on recovery?

I have a feeling that very few WWs give up an OM with whom they are in love and with whom they want to leave. I think that most of the time, the OM dumps them, either upon exposure or when WW forces OM to make a choice.

If OM is married, he is very likely to be a cake-eater. However much he told WW that he loved her and wanted to be with her for the rest of his life, when exposed or forced to make a choice, he dumps her. He never wanted to leave his marriage - your H and mine, Pep. Mine dumped OW about 5 times over 3.5 years when either her H or I found out about the affair and she urged my H to run away with her. Contact finally ended when I exposed to her H and my H again told her that he would not leave his marriage, ever.

My impression is that a lot of OM in the marriages here are married, and they dump the WW, although like my H, they might start up the affair again when the dust dies down, which is why exposure is vital.

If OM is single, it is likely that he is having fun with an often older married woman and has no intention of taking on her and her children. He is like RaRa boy, or pool boy, or many others; wildly unsuitable and, unlike WW, never took the affair seriously.

We have had discussions here about the usefulness or futility of Plan A. Some argue that it leaves the BH in a worse financial, custody and emotional position than if he had issued an ultimatum on D Day, and followed through with divorce. When BHs first come here, they are given the ‘Plan A followed by Plan B’ advice by many, but a minority gives advice to issue an ultimatum and go straight to divorce if the WW does not unequivocally choose the marriage. The BH is urged to take advantage of the WW’s ‘leave it all behind’ mentality, which is temporary.

Perhaps, however, the BH's decision should depend on the results not of an ultimatum but of exposure, since ultimatums must be followed through, and could be the source of regret.

If a BH feels able to do the ‘carrot’ part of Plan A along with the ‘stick’ then they should, but a BH who cannot countenance meeting WW’s emotional needs while ‘negotiating the end of the affair’ (while she sneaks around maintaining contact, often sexual) should expose immediately and see whether OM dumps WW.

He might, of course, dump her, only for contact to resume later. The goal would be to stop WW participating in contact by pointing out the implications of OM’s behaviour to date. If she has a shred of sense left she will see how she is allowing herself to be degraded by an OM who will not take her on, but will continue to have sex with her.

I would have to say that in my sitch, my FWH did not leave the OW after i discovered the A.

As a matter of fact he left me and moved in with the other woman. Even though it was only for a weekend when i gave him the ultimatum of me or her, he chose her.

To this day (even though he says no other things that he said leads me to believe differently) i still believe that the OW did not want my H once she had him and she would not let him stay with her. It was just the thrill of the chase for her and that is the only reason he came home.

So i still think that WHs and WWs are very much alike in all respects and the differences are simply gender differences in how men and women look at "relationships" in general it has nothing to do with being wayward.

Sorry Pep i could not resist.

SC, I don't understand what you mean by "the differences are simply gender differences in how men and women look at "relationships" in general".

Surely that difference validates Pep's theory. The different ways that men and women look at relationships affects the wayward relationship as well. Hence, there will be differences in how men and women enter into affairs, and how and whether they end the affair or the marriage.

The wayward H is more likely to be a cake-eater looking for "more" while the wayward W is more likely to be a Romantic, looking for "true love". That is a very crude generalisation about men and women in normal relationships, and if it carries on over into affairs, then there will be a gender difference in affairs.

Of course some men leave their wives and some women just want the thrill, but do you think that this has been the trend for most affairs here? I would say that the opposite is true - men = cake eaters, women = Romantics.

And that is my point, in relationships in general, men are out for sex and women are in it for the emotional aspect.

So why would it be any different in an A relationship than it would be in any other relationship?

And as far as the BH/WW versus BW/WH goes i would not know for sure, there are plenty of posters on here who's husband's left them for the OW plenty, plenty, plenty.