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Thank you JL thats one of the most useful, lucid and constructive posts I've had.

Interestingly she did seek counselling help for this problem a year before the affair and the advice was that if she feels to run off she should just go and leave me behind regardless of the cost. I thought that was irresponsible of them to tell someone unstable and in a state of depression to run off on their own but hey I'm not a professional.

She feels very against getting any more help in counselling right now though which makes thing awkward but I think she might talk to the Harleys. We need to make more definite plans in this respect

She came around to see us this evening and has said that she wants to come home at the weekend. I'm even more split now.

Do I agree or would it be better for her to stay away a bit?

All further input would be gratefully received.

Thanks again,

Bob


Me 44
Her 43
Married 14 years
Relationship 26 years
1 son 24 left home 4yr ago
WS had A started in Oct 07
D-Day 05 Jul 08
Plan A for 5 months
Plan B (of sorts) happened Jan 4th ended Jan 12th
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She needs to overcome this fear and if possible you need to help her.

You say she ran away from things at home when she was younger. Did her parents smother her or not pay enough attention?


ETA: I ask only out of curiosity.

Last edited by rustyshackelford; 01/05/09 08:04 PM.

BH-me 32
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Hey Bob! I haven't had time to post here, but checked in, saw your update, and here is a very quick response. I think what your W is doing is pure bullsh!! After my H's A I knew that what I wanted if I stayed with H was to be with a man, not a little boy. Your W is playing the little girl role very well.

I am a counselor who presently am working with kids and their families. Lately I have been making this comparison with my families to this dog trainer on TV called Victoria. Ever see her? Anyhoo, Victoria will take these magnets with everyone in the family's pictures on it, including the dog. Then she asks the family who has the power? Who is the top dog? I've been asking my families the same question. Usually it's maybe a 6 or 11 year old kid who is totally running the family. Total chaos! I look at them and think, "How did this happen? How is this 11 yr old running circles around this entire family, and everyone's jumping through hoops."

So I listen to your story, including the kissing and the cuddling, and am thinking your WW is really doing a great job keeping you totally stuck. JMHO here! If you want to let her have her own space, fine, but at least have some deadline in your head. Don't let her string you along indefinitely. Personally I would not give her an option as to whether she wants therapy. I'd have it be a condition for you "MAYBE" allowing her back into your life. I don't know, whacky WSs drive me a little crazy! Even crazier is when I see nice BSs like yourself getting walked all over by their whackiness.

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Originally Posted by rustyshackelford
You say she ran away from things at home when she was younger. Did her parents smother her or not pay enough attention?
It was a very difficult childhood for her. Her Father had numerous A's and left mom at home to fend for herself with four girls. When he used to come home, there would be violent arguments and police called etc...
Didn't help that her elder sister has mental probs either. Bipolar and always in trouble with police too.
All of the sisters apart from my W ended up in care at some point.
I think our marriage was a real comfort to her as she got stability which she never had at home.


Me 44
Her 43
Married 14 years
Relationship 26 years
1 son 24 left home 4yr ago
WS had A started in Oct 07
D-Day 05 Jul 08
Plan A for 5 months
Plan B (of sorts) happened Jan 4th ended Jan 12th
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BigBob,

I like CV's comments. I have a thought for you to consider. If you think that her problem is coping mechanisms and I certainly do or I would not have posted that to you, then perhaps you need to show her what I wrote or compose something that simply asks her the questions: "Isn't there a better way to handle our problems than running away?"

You cannot educate her that is for sure, but you can plant seeds of thought that might get her thinking about alternative ways to address her problems and by definition YOUR problems. This may take awhile and require many conversations, but I think it might help her.

As for the counselor she went to, that counselor should have the license removed. "If it makes you feel better do it." is not counseling, it is enabling. I wonder if they would feel so charitable with someone feeling better if it made them feel better to burn the counselors house down? Somehow I doubt it.

I would seek recommendations for a real counselor, and I would recommend that you interview this counselor. Do all of this before you even mention counseling to your W. There is no need for her to go unless and until she wants to address her problems. She is not there yet, she is just running.

If you can stop the running and start her thinking even if you don't like what she thinks I believe that she might then be more ameanable to counseling, IF YOU HAVE ACTUALLY FOUND A GOOD COUNSELOR.

Just thoughts. Hope they help.

God Bless,

JL

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Hi again JL / CV

Yes Im certain it's a coping mechanism too; she has always done it. Previously on her own or with friends but this time she picked a friend she was very much attracted to!

How to change that behaviour?

In brief I know I need to achieve 2 goals
1. Take control of my our situation by stopping her demands and indecisiveness.
2. Get her to understand and get help to modify these coping mechanisms.

She came round to me a short while ago today. She still says she wants to come back at the weekend. I still havent agreed to it as I'm not sure whether I should. I'm torn between trying to help her and being taken for granted / a mug.

She may well now be open to the idea of some counselling and I will approach her with your ideas JL. Also find a good counsellor in our area. The previous one was a local girl appointed by her employer. I didnt really think that she was particularly skilled and I think rather just looking out for the interests of the employer. Looking back I think she was at the tail end of seeing this counsellor when she embarked upon the A so what fantastic counselling huh?

No doubt I will talk to her at some point tomorrow and I'll mention the running as a coping mechanism to gauge a reaction. I'll see her reaction to further counselling too.

Much love to all for your concern and help.

Bob


Me 44
Her 43
Married 14 years
Relationship 26 years
1 son 24 left home 4yr ago
WS had A started in Oct 07
D-Day 05 Jul 08
Plan A for 5 months
Plan B (of sorts) happened Jan 4th ended Jan 12th
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Seeing how she has her own apartment....how do you know the OM hasn't visited?

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Hi ILF, the short answer is that I don't of course.

Why do you ask, is this of any great relevance at this point in time?


Me 44
Her 43
Married 14 years
Relationship 26 years
1 son 24 left home 4yr ago
WS had A started in Oct 07
D-Day 05 Jul 08
Plan A for 5 months
Plan B (of sorts) happened Jan 4th ended Jan 12th
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As far as cheap calling, I use yahoo instant messenger. I loaded 25 dollars on it, use my PC as a phone with a headset with mic, and it costs 1 cent a minute. International will cost a bit more, but still the cheapest route.

It seems like this may help you talk with the Harleys.

Good luck. Been in your shoes awhile myself.

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Originally Posted by bigbob1964
That she feels she needs to just run out the door and find some space to be on her own from time to time. Then when she does think about being away from home or goes out somewhere, has a craving to be back with me and our home...

Are there any WS's out there had similar feelings?
Hi, BB. I'm a FWW and yes, I've had these feelings. I don't know that I use running as a coping mechanism -- in fact I'm not known as one who will back down from a necessary confrontation. I'm more fight than flight. But when it relates to my infidelity, I want to run.

When the PA this year ended, I was all alone. FOM and I were in NC after his W found out, and I hadn't disclosed my cheating to anyone but my once-a-week IC. Everyone I looked at and everything I did reminded me of the liar and betrayer I was. It was hell. I don't deserve sympathy. Just want you to know the feelings were overwhelming. I had my first ever anxiety attack at age 42 and I was out of control. I wanted to be alone. I avoided friends, I would drive in circles around town, I would pretend to be working in my home office... I believed I was the scum of the earth and looking at people whom I knew trusted and loved me only exacerbated my self-disgust and pain. I finally asked my parents to watch our kids while H was out of town and holed up in a condo we rent for three days. It was during those days that I posted my first post on MB. Through the support of so many here, I mustered the strength and confessed everything to my H. Hardest thing I've ever done to begin healing from the worst thing I've ever done.

As I mentioned, I agree with others that running is her coping mechanism and she needs professional help addressing this reaction for all areas of her life. From my vantage point, I can see where even though you hopefully know everything, you still represent her ultimate guilt. In my case, my H does know everything and therefore unfortunately represents bad and good. His presence alone reminds me of what I did, how low I sunk, how bad I can be, my deception, and everything I may still lose if we don't make it. One can feel bad only so long until they turn it around, give up, or get away. There are still days, 7+ months since the PA ended and almost 3 months past d-day, that I am compelled to run. But H represents good too, which thankfully wins out in the end. His response to my confession has been undeservedly amazing and he now represents safety, affection, SF, comfort, strength, our family, financial security, the love I want, and more.

So yes, I can understand her conflict here, even though it's not my own personal MO.

I think you're a good man, BB, to want to do anything for this woman whom you still love and want to stay with. Take advice from the vets on here -- they rock. My only advice for you is to make sure you have boundaries. What those boundaries are need to be determimned by you (others here may guide you) and it'll be up to you to enforce them.

I wish you only the best.


Me (FWW): 45
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Confessed: 10/08
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Hey L4 thank you for your post. It's really quite good to hear from someone who has has experienced something similar. Perhaps gives me an insight to my WW's way of thinking. I know you said that you are not looking for sympathy but i think you deserve a little. All of us make mistakes and you clearly recognise what happened was just that. It is also clear that you are a sensible person who has a good loving family - you deserve some peace and bliss.

As for me, I think I am going to see where this takes us and set a date in about a week when we can go out to talk. Mention that in that talk we can discuss whether she should come home or not (ie set the boundaries and make a target). I was thinking maybe go for to a restaurant and sit and chat about the way forward after 7 days. In the meantime she can continue to experience her life as a single person (but knowing that I do still love her) and I can research the counselors in the area and see if we can give her some options at that time.

All of this is clearly tearing her to pieces, especially if she is going through all of the same emotions as L4. The frustrating thing is that as much as I would like to just help her through this I feel some of it is a journey she needs to do on her own. All I can do is be there as an example of the strength she needs.

As for whether the A is continuing only time will tell but hopefully being on her own for this time will help her see where she wants to be.

Lets see how we get on later today...


Me 44
Her 43
Married 14 years
Relationship 26 years
1 son 24 left home 4yr ago
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D-Day 05 Jul 08
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Hi all,

Sorry its taken a little while to post but life has been busy and lots has happened.

Last week we had a chat as I said I would and I sowed her a copy of the msg from L4. She read that and said apart from the fact that OM hadnt gone back to his W, the situation was pretty much exactly as described. That was a pretty accurate description of her feelings (tyvm L4 :o) ) She also agreed to some counselling in principal and also to let me find that counsellor for her.

That day she went back to the appt on her own (by mutual agreement) and we arranged to go out on the following Saturday to have a chat and perhaps make a fun night of it.

On Saturday she met me at home and we went off to a restaurant for a meal then after went to see a movie. We had a really good time and done a lot of talking about us but also had a lot of laughs too.

On the serious side I told her that it was decision time; that she had to make up her mind. She could either come home and do all the things I had asked to start a repair process or remain living away from home but this time I wanted no contact with her until she either wanted to come back or wanted a D. I told her that I loved her and really wanted her home but I wanted all or nothing and the procrastinating has to end. I asked her to think about it and talk to me the following day (Sunday) when she was coming round to take the dog out.

Sunday came and when she came round she had very little to say. She was clearly very tired (having already told me she had not slept for thinking about our situation) and just sat in silence then while I was busy making dinner, she fell asleep on the sofa. I woke her and told her to go and have a proper sleep on the bed which she did and I was pleased to see her catch up on her sleep in a settled way. Later in the evening I woke her again toeat and told her that I needed to know where we are and that she needed to decide so that she could either go back to her appt or be sure about our future. She didnt answer and decided to just get up and go back to the appt. I was disappointed but not particularly surprised.

At 4am I was sitting in bed unable to sleep when there was a knock at the door. It was her and she came in crying. She said that she wanted to come home and knew where her head and her heart was - that she knew it is me she loves. I said that this can only happen if she is sure and wanted to be here and that it was going to take a lot of work. She said she agreed to all I had asked and just wanted to be home with me. We went to bed and both slept well in each others arms.

Since Monday morning we have both been very busy and not had a chance to talk much further but I know there is a lot of ground rules we need to agree on. I will probably do this on Friday this week as we will both be off work. What we have spoken about is the fact that we are both determined to make our marriage work but not quite sure how to take the next steps. She also knows that she needs to get some counselling but not sure the best way to go about this. I was going to speak to my counsellor and see if he has any recommendations - it would clearly not be healthy to be seeing the same chap as me!

My question to you all now is how best to proceed from here? Do I get her to look at the rules from HNHN now? Do I wait until after she has had counselling? Maybe it is best to contact the Harleys right now (even tho it will be expensive).

I am certain she means our M to work for us now but not sure what or how to go about things if indeed we need to do anything other than just give each other time.


Me 44
Her 43
Married 14 years
Relationship 26 years
1 son 24 left home 4yr ago
WS had A started in Oct 07
D-Day 05 Jul 08
Plan A for 5 months
Plan B (of sorts) happened Jan 4th ended Jan 12th
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Buuuuuuuump grin


Me 44
Her 43
Married 14 years
Relationship 26 years
1 son 24 left home 4yr ago
WS had A started in Oct 07
D-Day 05 Jul 08
Plan A for 5 months
Plan B (of sorts) happened Jan 4th ended Jan 12th
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Hi Bigbob,

I haven't read your thread before, and I haven't read anything yet except your last post - but as soon as I have a chance, I intend to read the whole thing, and I'll probably have more to say that's on point then. I did want you to know that somebody's read your latest.

I think it sounds fantastic that your wife decided to come home! Congratulations! laugh

As for the next step... I think that talking to the Harleys (Steve or Jennifer) is always a sound move... although I understand it is expensive, they can help you both come up with a recovery plan to restore the love and rebuild the marriage.

HNHN is a good book, I also recommend Love Busters.

I guess I'll have more to say after I read your thread.


Me: 41, INFP
Her: 46, ESFJ
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tyvm cc smile

Sry for the bump, I don't mean to be a pain but was hoping to get some feedback before we get to chat later today.

I've got HNHN and SAA and read both but she's not much of a reader crazy

Still working on the counselling thing but not got very far yet.


Me 44
Her 43
Married 14 years
Relationship 26 years
1 son 24 left home 4yr ago
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D-Day 05 Jul 08
Plan A for 5 months
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Hi again!

Took me a minute to figure out what "tyvm" meant. I haven't seen that acronym before!

I like what Just Learning said about coping mechanisms. Have you brought that up with your wife?

I'm hoping you'll have good luck finding a counselor. I didn't realize before you were in England, so I can see how calling Harleys would be expensive... but I still think it may be worth it, at least once. But it sounds like you are also wanting her to get individual counseling - just make sure that it is good individual counseling.

I usually recommend the book "Love Busters", as I mentioned, because in most cases you get a bigger payoff by eliminating LBs before you put too much effort into meeting ENs. I like to use the analogy of a barrel... think of trying to fill your wife's love bank as akin to filling a barrel with water. Love Busters are like kicking holes in the barrel, and as long as there are holes in it, it won't ever fill up. HNHN has a chapter on love busters, so you've still got some info on them in what you've already got... but "Love Busters" goes into greater detail.

Apart from that, I've not got any specific suggestions, but I am very happy for you that your wife has chosen to reconcile instead of run. I hope she'll make the most of this chance to recover your marriage. I know you will.



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Her: 46, ESFJ
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Hi everyone, it's me again!

Well, I haven't posted for a long long while. Things have been rather hectic and as you may guess lots has happened.

Our lives have gone through all sorts of stresses and strains but in brief, she stayed home for a bit. After Christmas, she left and went back to her appt. She said it was to be alone and try to re-awaken her feelings for me but I suspected it was to spend some time with OM. I was of course correct and she did have him stay at the appt at least some nights.

In January we had a deja-vu where she promised it was all over and she came home. Told me that she wanted us to be good again blah blah blah...

In March it all went pear shaped again (am I seeing a pattern here d'ya think??) and she said that she was going to give up on us. By this time OM had found a place to live and she moved into his appt.

At that time I was weak, vulnerable and lonely. I met someone and was starting to see them on and off as a friend. I guess I was alone in the house and needed that - this person was very kind and understanding and helped me through. One weekend I went to stay with her at her place which is a few hours drive away. My W found out about me seeing this person and she went crazy. Accused me of not caring and tried to kill herself. I raced back from where I was to try and sort it all out and ended up in the ER at her side looking after her. Maybe it should have been OM looking after her but he told her that he needed to go to work and had disappeared.

Anyway, since then she has come home and told me she knows that its not OM she wants to be with and that she knows now that I am the person that she wants in her life. That he is history and she won't be seeing him again. Things had been real good. She was being more attentive and loving and I was respoinding. We were talking, spending time together, making plans for the future and generally starting to restart all of the things that we planned before the A.

However, the other day she was making dinner and said she was going out for some bread. I made like I wasn't paying too much notice and just said "fine honey, see you in a minute" but was suspicious. So I let her go, waited a few minutes then hopped into my car and drove round to OM's workplace. Well, there they were sitting in her car hugging. So I walked up and tapped on the window. She screamed at me to go away so I walked round to his window and spoke to him, asked him to wind down the window so we could talk. He just sat there stoney faced looking straight ahead. Refused to even look at me.

She started the car and tried to turn the car round. I stood in front and told her not to drive off so we could just all talk it through and sort things out there and then. At that point she drove her car into me and over me to get away. I managed to get back into my car and just drove home. She came back about a half hour later. She was crying and said that she only went there to arrange to pick up some belongings that were still at his appt. At that point I didn't even want to listen.

I wasn't badly hurt, just badly bruised and more upset. I thought the incident had given me a clear message that she was perfectly happy to run me down to protect him and her sordid little affair. Even now, so many months on she is still lying, still trying to perpetuate the situation and willing to risk my life to do so.

For her part, she says that it really wasn't anything and that although she is still friendly with him there is no physical or emotional relationship going on. That in any case, it was only a "one-off" meeting for practical purposes.

But I am not happy with this. I have told her that I love her and want things to be right between us and if she felt real love for me she would be able to remove this person from her life completely and totally. I really don't know if it really is a one-off meeting or whether she has been seeing him continually. I want to believe her but I don't!

Right now, I have an opportunity to move into another place. I know that I cannot put up with her having any future contact with this person. I could not deal with that at all.

My question is whether I just leave right now?
Do I accept this one incident as a one off and a bad experience then continue to work on things with her?
Should I just leave to give a real signal that I won't put up with it and serious about ending us if she won't do this for us?


Me 44
Her 43
Married 14 years
Relationship 26 years
1 son 24 left home 4yr ago
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D-Day 05 Jul 08
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If this were a one-off incident as she said it was, she wouldn't have committed a felony trying to run you over with the car to escape. That was a fear/flight response.

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get the he77 away from her. Move out. This time don't go back. She could have killed you. I think you have done all that could be asked of you. She is a nut. And if you stay any longer, I would be concerned about your sanity.

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My God Bob, do you have to die before you realize this woman doesn't care for anyone but herself?

You know what to do. Will you do it?

Or maybe you are here in hopes of finding one person tell you to stick it out so you can justify it?

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