Far as I know we made the word up. Divide up the animals by species. So all the cats in one pile. Frogs in another. Etc. The centerpiece of each table will be a pile of animals from a single species. So there will be a puppy table, a bear table, etc.

Did a "drive by" comment about sex last night. Mrs. Hold smiled and nodded but said nothing. As bubbles said, this will take time and require skill on my part.

As long as you don't speciate in public, Hold.



I like your creativity, and was thinking of something fun to lengthen the dress...like soft pink netting, only a couple inches longer.

You're the coolest father on earth to look up a way to punk her dress a bit. IMO.

I think you make tons of love deposits with the way you meet the FC EN. I wonder if you do the same for MrsHold, too...where your verve shines to make whatever she is frustrated with less frustrating through humor, creativity and loyalty.

Did you consider my idea years and years ago to make a statement box for her as a gift? Where you type up in single sentences each thing you love liking about her...where you appreciate, celebrate, admire...and you cut them into little slips and put them in a fancy box, so she can pull one out whenever she wants?

You'd have to curb your humor impulse, though...I just flashed on you writing "I like your species."



LA

LA: Thanks for hanging in with me. I know I am not always the most cooperative "patient". My problem has never been making deposits. It is the fact that I make even bigger withdrawals by (i) desiring sex, (ii) wanting her to control her spending, and (iii) being angry - and letting it show - when she doesn't. I have the funny, smart, entertaining part down pat. It is the strong, tough, dependable, self-reliant part I need help with.

Bubbles: Did another drive by today. Mrs. Hold called to ask about party stuff. At the end I said "I was thinking reverse cowgirl, what do you think?" She replied "you'll have to educate me." I explained. She said "that is easier when one is slightly lighter." I said "well you are more than slightly lighter, you are lots lighter." Left it at that. I view that as a positive exchange. Keep it short and sweet.

Of course, I don't have any expectation of DOING reverse cowgirl anytime soon (I don't expect any sex at all anytime soon). But it seems your idea about drive by comments is working. Thanks sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much.

HOW VERY COOL of you to do these drive-bys! I was imagining how this would work in my house because I'd *love* to have had something like this during the periods of time we seemed out of touch with each other. And I can imagine H saying short, witty things like this and I can imagine myself saying almost exactly what Mrs. H said (the self-depreciating comment about being lighter, etc.)., except that I'm pretty sure H would have gotten angry, accused me of taking the fun out of what he was trying to do, missing the point of what he was trying to do and then slamming me with "I'm just trying to lighten things up a little which is what you SAY you want. But with that kind of reaction, I'll never do that again."

This is not an assumptive DJ. This type of things happens all the time when my response is not what he wanted.

So, kudos to you, Hold. I think you made a sizeable lovebank deposit and perhaps, since you weren't expecting any specific type of comment or reaction in return, her reply didn't make any withdrawal for you!

No withdrawal at all. Limitation of this medium. Written words don't convey Mrs. Hold's tone. She wasn't complaining that it wouldn't work until she gets lighter. She was happily noting that it would be easier now that she IS lighter. Or at least, that is how I chose to interpret the words.

So it was in fact a huge deposit.

Hold,

I wasn't thinking of you meeting her ENs more...or that you don't do sufficiently...

I was thinking this would be for you.

LA

You mean she would give ME compliments? Oh, well, she does that from time to time. Problem is, I don't care. I don't want compliments. I want sex. And I want her to get a job and help pay down the credit card balances.

Compliments from her are not "rocks in the river" to me. They are grains of sand in the river. They don't pile up to make a bridge. They get washed down stream.

I understand that is partly about my internal dialogue. When she gives me a compliment, my internal reaction is "yeah right". Or maybe "so what". I don't feel thankful for the compliment. I feel like it is either a lie. Or besides the point. If she really thinks I am smart or funny or a good father, then she should show her appreciation by jumping my bones. If she doesn't want to jump my bones, I don't care whether she thinks I am smart or funny or a good father.

After all, plenty of people here and at work think I am smart and funny, but that still leaves me watching Cinemax in the living room at 1:00 am.

I'm rewriting the rest of your reply (and no, wasn't about her giving you compliments, btw) as if your W were saying what you said about sex:


LA

Wow, LA, that "flip" of Hold's comments makes a lot of sense... at least to me...

Hold...question for you...have you figured out how much it might cost you if your wife DID work? Just wondering. I'm speaking in terms of actual cost. I'm not saying she shouldn't, but it was often a topic of conversation when I was working at a place with a lot of young women, many quitting after they had their first child.

For instance:

1) Would it possibly put you in a different tax bracket?
2) Would she need to keep her wardrobe updated?
3) Would she be brown bagging it or not?
4) Gas and car maintenance?
5) Childcare?
6) Would she be expected to take time off work if one of the children got sick, or would you be willing to share that duty? What would you do with your children during the summer?
7) Would it end up where you did all of the housework versus what you're doing now?
8) After all of that is subtracted from her paycheck, would what is left be worth not being home with the kids?

Just some things to consider. Like I said, I realize she has a lot that she needs to do to redeem herself, but wondering if you've thought it through completely.

LA:

I can easily see how this might be Mrs. Hold's internal dialogue.

That is why we are stuck. The implication of your rewrite is that I "should show his appreciation by telling me, talking to me, giving me the feeling we are allies instead of enemies". No way I am going to do that. BTDT. Tried to be her ally for 8 years. Got nothing out of it. Felt like a chump. A doormat. A fool. I am not going back there. Even if it means there is no chance of our marriage improving (which is what I think / feel / predict).

We are not allies. Each of us wants what the other cannot or will not give. Neither of us considers the other person's discomfort is sufficient motivation to stop asking for what we want.

This is why I am twisting myself into a pretzel. This is what I continue to search for. A way to convince myself that I do NOT want to have sex with her. Because she feels used and like an object. I am searching for a way to justify to myself that I can stop asking for sex. Stop even wanting to ask for sex. Without feeling like I have abandoned my personal integrity. Without feeling like a chump and a doormat and a fool.

So I convince myself she is an unrecovered victim. And that I should not have sex with her until we can talk about it. Knowing she won't talk about it. HOPING she won't talk about it. Because that gets me to a place where I can do the right thing. Maybe for the wrong reasons (mental game playing with myself rather than out of love and concern for her feelings). But the right thing nonetheless.

If I cannot be her ally. If I cannot be safe. If I do use her and objectify her. Then however I can get myself to a place where I stop asking for sex. Is a good thing. Not good for our marriage - because I will never be happy with our marriage while the lack of sex continues. But good for not using her. Good for not pressuring her. Good for not allowing my objectification of her to drive my behavior.

I am afraid. I do not have the courage to become a man she would be attracted to. That would be the best answer. Talk honestly. Share our feelings. Use her lack of attraction to motivate me to become a better man. I am never going to do that. I am too afraid / pessimistic. I am always going to choose to stay how I am. Weak. Fearful. I am never going to get to the place where we could share our true selves and she would find me sexually attractive. Given that. We cannot aim for a satisfying marriage. We can only aim for the least amount of pain.

Which is why I am still in the same place 12 years after starting MC and 7 years after arriving here. I know what I would have to do to actually resolve our problem. Become a man. And I am not going to do it. Because I fear I can't. And trying and failing would be even more crushing than rationalizing to myself that she should appreciate what I have to offer anyway. Even though deep down I know she shouldn't.

Soolee:

You make good points. I am sure that her working full time would require changes in our lifestyle. Not all of them welcome.

I also know that she did work part time for a year or 2 and she did clear more money than she spent on clothes / gas / lunch. And that our latest round of debt happened when she stopped working and she kept spending despite the lack of income.

So if she worked, it would lead to a positive cash flow after taxes and expenses. Which would take some of the pressure off me financially.

Am I as confident that she would be happier working for a little money than staying home with slightly less money? No. I assume she prefers to stay home. Which is why she is not hitting the pavement looking for a job right now.

Do I care if she is less happy working? No. I understand that is a very un-MB answer. I am supposed to care. I am not supposed to want to gain at her expense. Well, at this point I don't mind if I do. I understand wanting to gain at her expense is not good for our marriage. So what? Our marriage stinks as it is. It is going to stink whether she works or not. So if we are not going to be happily married, she might as well help pay down our debts.

Wow. That is as honest as I have been here at MB in a long while. Lately, I find myself censoring myself because of how my statements would look during our divorce. But really there is no point in posting here if I am not going to be honest.

Would she help pay down the debts, Hold, or would she consider it license or rationale to spend more? What plan would you have in place to insure yourselves that a spending habit isn't perpetuated or worsened by her working? Would whatever allowance she gets now, be then taken from her paycheck? Have you discussed this with her?

I have discussed working and how much of her paycheck she would get to keep and how much should be devoted to family needs. We have discussed what would be a fair split, but partly that depends on how much she earns. She has never stated it explicitly, but I imagine part of what de-motivates her from working is that she cannot spend all the money she earns on new stuff. Well, that and the negative impact on her divorce settlement.

As for steps in place, we are back to her not having any credit cards and living on a cash allowance. She gets a deposit every other week, same day my paychecks arrive. If she started working, I would reduce the automatic transfer to her account by whatever amount we agreed.

As you know, Mrs. Hold has lost over 40 pounds this year. She looks great. She goes to the gym almost every day and is in great shape.

Funny, I find it much easier to refrain from sex these days. The pull is much less, even though she is more physically attractive. Don't know if I am getting old. Or if I have trained myself not to want sex with her. But I do not find it difficult to resist whatever urges arise.

I still hold it against her that we don't have much sex. But I don't find it as hard to resist her as it used to be. Wierd.

That's because you have lost all your love for her. You stayed married too long, and your lovebank is not depleted, it's ripped to shreds and burned in efigy (sp?).

You waited too long to take action, and now you'll probably never get that love back.

She needs to know that.

The ONLY way I see it is if she once again fears you divorcing her, and gets her rear in gear and works on herself.

But she'll never do that unless you tell her you no longer love her and want to leave. (probably a dozen or so times might sink in to her head)

Hmm, I think there is a second f.

Well, then I guess I was correct all those years ago when I warned her to be careful about wishing for the day when I would stop wanting her sexually. Somehow, feels like a rather hollow "victory". Seems I would have preferred to be married than to be right.

It means nothing if a spouse improves thier looks or health. It means everything what is inside thier heart.

She still does not love you anymore
She is still overspending after all her problems with that
She is still disrespecting you
She is not sorry for spending you into the poorhouse of debt
Nor is she sorry for wanting to spend even more
She will not even think of working or contributing in any way
She demands a HK even though she has "nothing to do" and could clean house.

It would be hard to live with a woman like that much less have sex with her.

No one could trust her. No one.

Any man's instincts would tell him to protect himself from her and RUN if he knew the true personality of your wife:

These words would come to mind:

Herpes
Lies
Spender
selfish
Needs housekeeper
More money needed
Comfortable with debt
Dislikes sex

You, or anyone else who knew her, would have to be crazy to ever want sex with her again or trust her again with money, getting a job, paying off debt, paying you back the 112K she stole, or your heart.

You got a huge millstone around your neck even though the millstone is about 40 lbs lighter.

Bubbles, you know I love you, but please tone down the attacks on Mrs. Hold. Thank you.


You mean no one healthy or sane. I have lived with her for over 18 years. I have had sex with her for 18 years. I trusted her for many years after I found out about the overspending.

You are correct that no one should accept such behavior and expect to be happy. Or to stay sane. Lord knows I haven't been able to. But it is clearly possible to live this way. After all, someone has.

Moreover, I don't think it has been a picnic to live with a pessimistic negative non-self-respecting person like me, either.