I'm willing to wait it out and work to re-earn my place. That's why I'm here because I want to learn the best way to do that.

And taking the dog out starts a fight because it apparently shows that he has to think of everything and be the "adult" (even though I'm the one who remembered lol!)

Ruth,

I get the impression, though I might be wrong, that your H does not think he is as attractive a person as you are. Not saying that would be correct or even how you would feel, but taking into account some of the earlier posts I see a man with low self-esteem pre-affair.

NJ

JL,

Thank you so much for your reply. You are so spot on with most of the things you said.


I don't mean to list those things I've done for him as though they were sacrifices. I love doing things for him and making him happy. One of his recurring questions to me since the A has been: "what have you done for me to try and make me happy?" And one example he would give is surprising him with things, like tickets to events. He also really values his friendship with his close friends he grew up with and so I try to support those friendships. These are things I've done in response to complaints he has had. So I do feel like they should be valued because they were suggested as things I could do to make him feel special. But I get your point that I can't buy back his love. I just want to show him that I am willing to put in the effort to make him happy.

However, I do feel like I'm his slave and I've felt that way for a very long time. I've developed a fear of enforcing my boundaries with him because I've consistently been told that I deserve ocassional mistreatment for one reason or another (because of sacrifices he's made for me). I am also afraid that if I stand up to him it will set him off (as it has in the past) and I don't want to rock the boat. Honestly, I don't believe I know how to be his partner. I need help with this.



I know his #1 EN is SF but maybe that one is beyond repair? He tells me he's not interested in that anymore and that he just feels bad when we do. He rejects my attempts most of the time. This is a very difficult one for me to because I developed an aversion long before the A because it became a very negative thing in our relationship from early on. H tells me I am spoiled and that I expect a fantasy in order to enjoy SF. He says that most girls would have a great sexual relationship with him if he'd sacrificed for them like he did for me. He doesn't understand how his AOs that don't happen very often could decrease my desire for SF. He says that is not normal and that most ppl have fights and then can have SF with no problem ("make up sex").

As to his other ENs, I thought I was trying to meet them by going to movies with him (recreation), engaging him about how his day at work went and asking him about things that interest him (conversation), telling him I'm proud of him and complimenting him on his progress with exercise. I think physical attractiveness is also important to him but it's very hard to dress up and look cute because 1) he is very impatient about waiting on me to get ready (he actually stands at the door and jingles the keys, although its supposed to be a joke) and 2) if I wear cute shoes and can't keep up when we're walking around he gets very upset and just wants to go home. I also make the majority of the contribution to the family finances and do 90% of the chores. I don't think affection is very high on his list and as to O&H, I certainly failed at that in the past but since the A, I have been very open about all details of the A and all details of my life and try to be honest about my thoughts and feelings (unless we're in an argument, I usually shut down then).


My husband is an incredibly kind, generous, caring, moral, funny, and smart person. I'm so proud of everything he's accomplished and all the hard work he's done to get where he is. I can't imagine life without him. (I have a funny way of showing it, huh?) I know it's incumbent on him to deal with the hurt and work on his contributions, the problem is he says his only fault is that "he's a jerk sometimes."


Agreed. I have a pretty good idea what the contributing factors were. A lot of them were things that were fixed by virtue of change in situation.


I just set up an appointment. I am going tomorrow at lunchtime. I do suspect he is looking for someone to tell him it's ok to leave but I hope that changes.


I completely agree. It has very much become that way. I don't know how to become part of it again. I feel like I screwed up the one little window I had last summer and because of that, I can never get back in. The resentment seems too great.




Is it a good idea to mix the home study course with counseling?


I have learned a lifetime's worth already from this experience and am definitely more aware of my limitations and my weaknesses. I am one of those people, I'm sure like most, who thought they were never in a million years capable of such a thing. I am prepared to protect against my weaknesses now.

He readily admits that he feels this way, although those feelings are driven by self-esteeem issues rather than reality, like you say.

RuthGL,

I have a lot of work to do, but I thought I must respond to your post to me.

First impression given what you have said, I want an honest answer from you. Why do you think he is a good candidate for marriage? Let's forget your A for a moment. Given his constant statements about HIS sacrifices and how you are suppposed to Kow tow to him because of them, this man has NO CLUE what a relationship and a marriage is. Now hopefully, the counselor will see this and address it. But YOU need to really think about this.

I know you are the one that had the A, and frankly you have no clue what a poor decision that was. It will haunt you for the rest of your life, even if you two divorce and you actually find a man worthy of marriage. You messed up big time on this one.

But, having said this, given your age, his age, no children, and the state of the marriage, why do you want to remain in this marriage??? Blackmail is NOT a good way to work a marriage.

Ok, let's address some of what you said. There is nothing wrong with you making him happy. But, I will say this to you, people make themselves happy. People learn to value themselves (something neither of you understood before). You can make people feel they are important in your life, enjoyed by you, appreciated by you. I think both of you have failed at that.

You said So how has that been workin fer ya?" To quote Dr. Phil. This is not a good idea. You need to enforce your boundaries and if he cannot handle this without anger and mistreating you, then he needs to be gone. Am I clear enough for you. You cannot repair, fix, address your marriage while face down in the mud. Stand up woman and be someone worthy of respect.

Next thing you said OK, so you are having sex with him now although you don't want to. That is just great. This is going to harm the both of you. He will and probably does feel that he is getting charity and that he does not compare to OM. This will not do. You don't feel like SF because you didn't before, and now he has problems with it as well. Boy, do you two need some serious counseling on this topic alone.

Ok, in two paragraphs you say two things that are very contradictory. You said

So you bring in most of the money. And most of the household chores. Do you respect him? You say you do, but how do you respect someone that is "a jerk sometimes", who is not contributing what you are, and who feels no need to show you affection, respect, and discusses all of the "sacrifices" he has made for you? Don't you see blackmail in this? I do. The boy is not only insecure, he is incompetent. You are not much more competent because you method of handling stress is to have an affair.

Please think about this. YOu are living in a fairy tale setting if you think he is so great except that he intimidates you, is a self-proclaimed jerk sometimes, doesn't like affection, but wants sex on demand. Oh, and he is not the major breadwinner and is not helpful. Wow!!!

RuthGL, it may seem like I am telling you to dump the guy. Oddly I am not. It wouldn't bother me if you decided to do that, given age, young marriage, and no children. In fact, if things don't improve DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN WITH HIM. But, for you to make credible changes to yourself, how you view yourself, how you view marriages you MUST see reality within yourself and your H. He has much to change to make this marriage work, and so do you. Your affair added on to the complexity of this mess and gives him an excuse to NOT address very real issues. As you are seeing it was a foolish thing to do on many levels.

Nevertheless, in my humble opinion, this marriage only makes it if YOU both start to see, discuss, and address reality in your marriage. You don't have make him the bad guy, but you will never get where you need to be without realizing he isn't prince charming either. He is going to have to do the same.

You are right you have a lot to learn, but the biggest thing to learn is that you must be a woman to be respected by yourself and others. That starts now. Your H has alot to learn and frankly if he does not learn it, you should be gone from this marriage, but you will learn alot by your efforts to make this marriage better and trying to save it. Those efforts will NOT be wasted no matter the outcome of this mess.

All I have say in conclusion is don't accept mediocre either on your part or your H's part.

God Bless,

JL

Ruth,

I think I understand what your husband is getting at. You seek to control the situation, instead of doing what your husband asks. Is there a possibility that your husband is trying to see if you will just do as he asks you to do. You're use to getting your own way aren't you? Your husband makes a simple request "to find someone local". You are worried about the outcome, rather then the process of healing. You think you know better then him. Do you? Did you think you knew better then him when you had an affair behind his back? Maybe he wants to see if you will put your interests on the back burner and trust him. Apparently he trusted you, up until the time you drove a stake through his heart. This may be a bit of a 2x4 for you. The more you fight him on this. The more he sees that you haven't changed.

Maybe if you went to him and gave him three choices regarding counselors, he may leave the choice up to you. But that would be something out of your control, wouldn't it? Maybe you should tell him that you're afraid that the counselor will see that you're not contrite. Maybe you should confess your fear that a counselor that is out of your control may end up saying that you're not worth the hassle (a ridiculous thought). Maybe you should crawl up on your husbands chest tonight, bury your face in it and tell him all those fears. Maybe you should tell him that you are going to trust in his love, instead of trying to manipulate the outcome. Maybe if you tell him with tears running down your face, that you are sorry for not trusting him enough to tell him what is going on in your heart before, during and after the affair. Maybe if you ask him for his forgiveness, instead of saying I'm sorry (asking for forgiveness is giving him the power, and is a risk that he might say no. Where saying I'm sorry is you keeping the power but doesn't even include his feelings).

Why don't you step completely out of character and just let go. If he's half the man that you claim he is (and has already shown himself to be) you are disrespecting him as your husband and as a person. The same way you disrespected him when you slept with the other man. I ask you what's the difference? In either case you are telling him he isn't worth the respect. Take a risk. It may do more for your marriage then any counselor could.

Why do you think this is?

In your other thread you said that SF was one of his top EN's, but it was a big hurdle for you. Why?

Did you ever refuse SF to the OM?

JL,

Thank you so much again for taking the time to comment on my situation and offer advice. You have great insight and your post has left me with much to consider.


I know it sounds contradictory the way I've described things and I guess I should just reiterate that 90% of the time, he really is my perfect mate. We complement each other so well, we understand each other's sense of humor, we enjoy each other's company. He exhibits all the wonderful qualities I described. I wanted to and still want to be married to my H because 90% of the time, things are really good. It's the other 10% of the time that the major problems arise. However, that 10% is still part of who he is and I realize that.


I agree with you 100% in principle. It's just hard in the situation to do. I mean when we have a discussion/argument, I always start out trying to enforce my boundaries and asking him not to be disrespectful when he is but the guilt just gets overwhelming as the conversation progresses. The judgments, the telling me how I feel over my protestations and saying that my actions belie my feelings so he's just going to look at the facts, the sneers as he asks "what's so hard for YOU to deal with, this is the worst you have to endure and you're going to complain about THIS?" the condescension, the telling me he views me as a child and that he has no respect for me, the reminders of how selfish I was pre-A. He asks me questions like "explain THIS to me" but he rejects any explanation I give. He demands that I tell him all the sacrifices I've made for him and the things I've done to try to make things better for him but anytime I give an example he says "no I'm talking about ...." and makes the question more limited so that I can't possibly give a satisfactory answer. These episodes aren't about resolving issues, they are about emotional release. So I guess it's just hard to stand up and be someone worthy of respect when that's the exact opposite of how I feel. I feel like I owe it to him to let him vent but in the process I end up feeling like total s**t. I guess those are the repercussions.


Agreed. This is long standing issue. The thing is that I desperately WANT to want to have a good relationship with him in this way. I've told him that it's very hard for me to be "in the mood" when he blows up at me (even if it's not often) and that if he were affectionate toward me a little it would help a lot. He said he's not going to meet my needs just so that his needs can get met and that me giving him SF even when I don't want to is a sacrifice I can make for him after what I've done. However, when I do that then of course he can tell and he gets mad about that too. The bottom line is that whole topic causes me great anxiety and is generally not enjoyable for me in the slightest.


I don't respect him when he blows up at me no, but the majority of the time I do. I don't think the A was an outlet for stress though. I will never pin that horrible decision on him. Neither he nor the way he treated me caused me to make that choice.


I have most definitely realized how foolish and selfish my A was and it hasn't escaped me that it's given him an out to address serious pre-A problems we had. He thinks he's done all the changing he needs to do because he's controlling his temper better and not yelling at me as much. Like I said, he thinks being a jerk on occasion is his only issue and reducing (not eliminating) the frequency of those occurrences is the only change he needs to make. If I even suggest that more needs to be done not only does he get incredibly angry, he says I expect perfection.

The no children thing should not be a problem. He has already made very clear to me he does not want children with me. The majority of our relationship he told me he didn't want children. Now, he wants them but just not with me.

Thanks for your response ouch. I hadn't thought of it as trying to control the situation or not respect his wishes. I was more concerned about finding someone who will help us rather than set us back and the known (counseling with SH) vs. the unknown. I was under the belief that major decisions should be POJA'd. However, I do appreciate that it's important to show my H that I will do whatever it takes to help our recovery. I did make an appointment with a local counselor yesterday and have an appointment today.

Because he's withdrawn from me emotionally.


Because whenever he has an issue with it, he criticizes me and tells me how abnormal I am and honestly I've just come to have very negative associations about it.

Yes.

How is that not control? Why is it only YOUR job to find someone? If you truly want him to see you extending an olive branch, you will defer to him in everything reasonable. Ask HIM to pick someone and go with what HE wants. Can you?

This is going to sound awful, and I doubt anyone will agree with me, but the best thing my FWW could've done for me, two years ago, would've been to initiate an amicable divorce and follow through with it.

If she really loved me, she could've spared me all that pain and done what I didn't have the guts to do myself.

Ok fair enough. expressing concerns = control. I haven't told him I won't go to a local counselor. In fact, I'm going to one in about an hour. And he told me I need to take the initiative and get something set up, so yes it is my job only. So I have deferred to him because I do think it's reasonable, I simply had concerns, which I've put to the side.

Krazy, I have followed your story and your perspective really resonates with me because I can imagine almost everything you say coming from my H. It helps me understand the true devastation I've caused (not that I can ever fully comprehend it). That being said, I hope that my relationship with my H CAN be salvaged and that he isn't just trying to push me away so that I will be the one to leave him. I have to believe that there is something I can do to not only repair our relationship, but make it better. This site gives me hope that that can be accomplished. Even if it can't, I will continue to act with that as my goal.

I wish you luck. Every situation is different, as are the people involved.

Thanks Krazy, I really appreciate that. I wish you the best of luck too.

RuthGL,

I have been reading along with your thread and just wanted to let you know of a website that helps you find pro-marriage counselors. MB doesnt have recommended couselors for every state, so I thought this might be of interest to you.

http://www.marriagefriendlytherapists.com/

Take care

So I just got back from my first session with the counselor. It went well. She seemed very insightful and I liked her personality. I'm really glad she met with us individually at first because the last counselor we went to had us meet together the first time and it was a pretty frustrating experience. The time went way too fast though. I felt like I only got out like 2% of the things needed to paint a complete picture of our story!

Before the appointment I picked H up from the mechanic and took him back to work. It's always nice to see him in the middle of the day. I brought him a really nice homemade lunch and he really appreciated it. He is in a much better mood today so I think he's coming out of the mood he's been in the last few days.

Thanks for that recommendation. I actually stumbled on that site when I was searching for local counselor's last week. Unfortunately there was only one counselor in our area but it was a pretty far drive and his credentials were a little sketchy. The counselor I saw today seems promising though.

I thought things were on the upswing yesterday but I'm beginning to realize that any semblance of marital happiness right now = me being 100% perfect + the luck of what mood he's in.

warning: vent about something stupid coming...

Backtrack to saturday when the most recent multiday fight started. Earlier that day when things were going well he was doing fake karate (as he often does to both of our amusements). Anyway he did a kick toward me and I reached out to block it and my finger went *crack.* It REALLY hurt. No big deal though, it was an accident.

Last night we're sitting at dinner and I mentioned that my finger still hurts and I hope nothing's wrong with it. His response is essentially, that I'm trying to make him feel abusive. No conern for me (I know, just a stupid finger). I just so desperately want to feel a glimmer of connection, some shred of hope that I can work with.

I know this all seems so minute and inconsequential, but unfortunately, these kinds of interactions are incredibly common for us. Just feeling pretty down today that something like this can throw us off track. Shows how fragile things are right now.