How about researching other 'case histories' of people who have managed to exceed this spot, and achieve something else? It would give you something to talk about, and just might give her some food for thought, as in 'hmmm, you know it would be nice if dkd and I were like best friends. I could live with that.'

Cat, I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that I should declare that we are best friend and be ok with that, even though I want more? Maybe just see how comfortable she is with the way things are going?

Where could I find case studies? I like that point though, as I really don't know how people who have divorced get remarried (similar to my case I guess).

This seems like an impossible situation to me, then again, it just goes to show that I'v lived most of my life trying to control what happens, instead of just letting things happen. She fell in love with me in the first place, so why do I believe that can't happen again, unless I do something to make it so?

No, I kind of mean saying something like, 'You know, I despair sometimes because all I ever wanted was to be best friends with you and your partner for life, and I see you don't want that. So I go through days when I just wish I could find a happy medium. I did hear about this one couple who split up, but then they realized that they had more fun raising their horses together, so they found an arrangement that let them do that, without any strings attached. I wish we could find something like that. Because I really do enjoy being around you.'

Bingo. With this approach, you're opening the way for something 'more' than just acquaintances, but you're not actually suggesting it, just letting her hear it and hoping she'll come up with it on her own; if she doesn't, you can always take it a step further and make a suggestion of some sort. You never know, if you're doing it in a safe way, she just may take you up on it. But she has to be sure you're not being pushy, or she WILL back off.

Weird. I don't know that I can say that, then again, I think I say and act on the same thing all the time. As far as activities together, we do a lot of coordinating for the kids activities. Sports mostly, but we even planned the kids birthday party together, and are all going out for dinner on DS4's birthday. Depending on how that goes, I'll try and get another family dinner going. I'll try and think of something else we could maybe do together, especially after school is out.

Bingo. With this approach, you're opening the way for something 'more' than just acquaintances, but you're not actually suggesting it, just letting her hear it and hoping she'll come up with it on her own; if she doesn't, you can always take it a step further and make a suggestion of some sort. You never know, if you're doing it in a safe way, she just may take you up on it. But she has to be sure you're not being pushy, or she WILL back off.

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Right. My fear is that it will seem that this is what I want, this is what I'm ok with. Truth is, I need more. As well, a part of me says that without a little pressure, she'll never take that step, because it's too comfortable where she is now.

It's funny, but if we had no history together, I would show interest, ask her out, and if she said no, I would be done. No issues. Amazing how that just isn't acceptable to me anymore.

Funny, yesterday I asked for tension, and today I got it. I was screwing around on the comupter this morning and got on twitter, I ended up following my wife...neither one of us really use it, but I figured it was a minor way of breaking walls so to speak.

We are also both on facebook, but not friends. At the time, I was pretty low on confidence, and she was somewhat in a "freedom phase" if that makes any sense. I didn't think I could take it nor anything good come from it.

Well, I emailed her this morning and let her know about twitter, and that we could be friends on facebook if she wanted. She said no.

Some background, as I don't think I've talked about this much before, but one of the things that came between us towards the end was mutual friends we had on the internet. They were mostly guy friends that I had, talking about sports, that she became friends with as well. Eventually, it lead to some flirting that was suppossed to be innocent, she was just one of the guys. I did tell her that it upset me, but she didn't want to back-off, and I honestly lacked the confidence to stick to my guns. I didn't want conflict with her, nor did I want to give up my friends.

Last summer, that all came crashing down, as one of these guys took things too far and she realized that she couldn't be one of the guys. She asked that both of us leave the message board where we knew these people from, and that these friends weren't good for either of us. She apologies to me for the flirting, but was also incident that she was getting her ENs met, and I wasn't do that...which I agree with, and that this was not an EA.

Well, her reason for not wanting to be friends on Facebook was that she was talking to some of these guys there and she knew that bothered me. She didn't want the tension.

Of course, this really bothers me. I am angry, though not at her. I responded "ok. I get the feeling there is still alot of miscommunication about all of that. Maybe some day we can talk about it.".

I'm having a hard time discerning exactly how I feel about this. I know that it bothers me that I am not trusted with the truth, and I know that I cannot be very good friends with her if I'm not trusted. I'll never know what she's doing that might hurt me, she just doens't want me to know to avoid tension. If that is the case, then I have to keep her at a distance, that's boundaries. On the same time, I know that she doesn't want to be judged, she doesn't want to be told she's a bad person, or to feel guilty. I don't want that either. She expects a DJ whether I give it or not.

A third thought is her statement that "I wish that we had been different". I have a hard time believing in that statement when it feels like when it comes time to make the hard choices to be different, a differnt path is chosen. Maybe that is too harsh. Maybe that statement means that she believes everything should have been easy, we should have been more of a natural fit, but we weren't and I wish that they had been.

Regardless, I feel like I shouldn't compromise on this. Or maybe 'not ignore' is a better term. I don't know that there is disagreement, but there certainly isn't enough communication to know for sure. And I am not comfortable with the current level of relationship, our friendship, when there is distrust like this.

Dkd, are you moving from State of Withdrawal, where you are withdrawn to the point that you don’t really want your W to meet needs, to the State od Conflict, where you do want your wife to meet your ENs? Did you tell your wife that this was an “Ouch” for you? Would you be willing to call the Harleys, even if it breaks your heart to get your hopes up again, if in the end you will know that you have done everything you can do?

NED (Ears), not exactly, but I your analysis is pretty brilliant. You got me to go back and look at those three states in Basic Concepts. I think I've been waffling back and forth between withdrawl and conflict. I'm in conflict now, that for sure, but I know that I have pretty good control over my Taker.

What I think this is through, is that I'm trying to pull her from Withdrawl to Conflict. I see her no response as some semblence of conflict, so I'm jumping all over that. I don't want to DJ or AO her, I want to show some understanding of her feelings, some respect for myself, and POJA the problem.

There is no doubt that this situation is a conflict that would need to be resolved if there ever is intimacy again.

Thanks so much NED, I was feeling a little confused and now things appear much clearer. I've got some more thinking to do, but I know what I want now.

As far as calling the Harley's, sure, why not. I am not afraid of getting hurt again. I feel pretty confident that I can avoid LBs, keep boundaries, and still be O&H.

I was thinking about writing something like this, or saying something like this:

MsDKD,

Miscommunication isn't the right word. Really, "things have changed" would be more accurate. I don't have any issues with people at XXX. In fact, I still am friends with several of the XXX guys, although I haven't had a conversation with any of them in several months.. No I don't want to think about some of the things that happened there, nor would I want to go back and act like the person I was back then, but the people are fine with me. I have read a few threads here and there, but haven't been drawn to rejoin or anything. You said before that XXX wasn't good for me, and I think that holds true for the most part even now.

Also I think it's fair to say that I have thicker skin then before, or atleast know how to handle conflict better. I was very weak confidence wise, and things hurt me rather easily. I was jealous of attention that others gave you, because I knew how detached we were, and felt threatened. Maybe I was right to think so, although I certainly didn't respond in a useful way. If I'm hurt today, I don't whine about it, nor pretend it doesn't hurt. I just deal with it honestly, and avoid those situations if that's what I need to do. Before, I didn't have the strength to do that, I needed the people that hurt me, indirectly or otherwise, and was afraid of what would happen if they left. Funny how your fears come true when you base your actions on them.

So yes, if we were "facebook friends" there could be some tension. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. And honestly, it doesn't make much difference to me in and of itself. What bothers me the most is that I don't want to be treated as a weak person anymore, and I want to be trusted. I know those things are earned and I can't hold it against you if you see me as weak, or untrustworthy, but I want to be honest about what I want.

I don't get it. What did YOU do wrong? Why are YOU apologizing?

I didn't realize that I was, but looking at it again, I can see an apologetic tone, especially in the 2nd paragraph.

I was trying to compare my past behavior to my current behavior, but I can see where it looks like I'm taking blame for her behavior. I probably could leave the whole 2nd paragraph out?

MsDKD,

Miscommunication isn't the right word. Really, "things have changed" would be more accurate. I don't have any issues with people at XXX. In fact, I still am friends with several of the XXX guys, although I haven't had a conversation with any of them in several months.. No I don't want to think about some of the things that happened there, nor would I want to go back and act like the person I was back then, but the people are fine with me. I have read a few threads here and there, but haven't been drawn to rejoin or anything. You said before that XXX wasn't good for me, and I think that holds true for the most part even now.

Also I think it's fair to say that I have thicker skin then before, or atleast know how to handle conflict better. I was very weak confidence wise, and things hurt me rather easily. I was jealous of attention that others gave you, because I knew how detached we were, and felt threatened. Maybe I was right to think so, although I certainly didn't respond in a useful way. If I'm hurt today, I don't whine about it, nor pretend it doesn't hurt. I just deal with it honestly, and avoid those situations if that's what I need to do. Before, I didn't have the strength to do that, I needed the people that hurt me, indirectly or otherwise, and was afraid of what would happen if they left. Funny how your fears come true when you base your actions on them.

So yes, if we were "facebook friends" there could be some tension. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. And honestly, it doesn't make much difference to me in and of itself. What bothers me the most is that I don't want to be treated as a weak person anymore, and I want to be trusted. I know those things are earned and I can't hold it against you if you see me as weak, or untrustworthy, but I want to be honest about what I want.

Well, I ended up having a phone conversation instead of a letter. Very glad I did.

After work I had to rush to make it to soccer practice (for DS4) at 5. DS8 had swim practice at 4, so W had to bring DS4 to practice instead of me just picking him up from the house. Before, W would just drop off DS4, but she hung around, which was nice. We talked a bit after practice, then went separate ways.

I called her later to address this whole facebook thing, and honestly that part of the conversation didn't go too great. I don't think I communicated things too well, but there was no DJs are AOs, so it wasn't a negative. Plus, it lead in to a different conversation that I think was rather positive.

I asked her directly to tell me what she didn't like about me, what wasn't it that couldn't change that she could not live with. Was I too tall? Too whatever? I wanted something concrete. Her answer was that we weren't compatable, we didn't have enough in common. She said that she never felt close to me, that there was always a wall between us. She also said that many of those walls were made by us. She went over some incidences in our past where we didn't connect, and I agree with her that those were bad times.

Funny thing is, we talked for another 15 minutes about different, common friends and things like that. A little ironic. As well, no DJs anywhere in the conversation, and I felt a little closer to her, more able to speak my mind and be myself. She even said that conversation was nice and glad we talked.

At some point soon, I want to ask that question again. I want to repeat back to her what she said, and ask her if she felt we were close and connected when we were dating. If not what was the motivation for getting married? I tell her again that I can accept that there could be things about me that she just can't handle. Maybe I don't make enough money, or too much, something like that. I also want to remind of some of the times in the marriage where we were closes, things that she has told me about in the past as a time when she felt connected. For myself at the least, I want to make a list of the things we do have in common.

Maybe this is semantics, but the terms 'walls' and 'incompatable' don't go together in my mind. Walls are put up by people, to block what is already there. Too many walls doesn't mean that there isn't compatablity, but too much effort is needed to tear down those walls to get there. Incompatability means not enough bridges.

Anyway, what Ears said yesterday regarding the states of conflict and withdrawl makes so much sense now. My W's states about not feeling connected and compatable makes sense, and doesn't hurt to hear, considering the probability that she's in a state of withdrawl.

So I have some hope in staying the course. I can be patient, I can avoid DJs and AOs, and push for POJA. Conflict is ok, necessary even. I can tear down walls and build some bridges. Looking forward to it even.

Dkd, it sounds like you want to talk her into thinking that things are possible between the two of you. Asking what particular things it was, so that you can prove to her that you are addressing them. She was clear, that you two were not connected. If you reread the article Why Women Leave Men, they don’t leave because you were too tall or whatever, it’s because she felt shut out of your life. And it describes how a woman who is “invited into every room of your house” doesn’t leave. I’m glad the 3 States of Mind article helped you with perspective. It helps me too, remember that withdrawal and conflict are just temporary, that it’s okay to share O&H and let it go.

Another factor is that there may be others who she didn’t feel shut out with. On GQII they will tell you how highly unlikely it is that she left unless she has a replacement in mind. I’m not saying that IS the case, just that you may want to consider making sure you have all bases covered.

It doesn’t matter really whether it’s too much wall or not enough bridge, does it? Like you said, you are building bridges. Are you dating, courting her? The walls only come up when she’s angry, so that will fade into the background over time. By the time she gets to State of Intimacy, when she gets angry, it will be with the situation at hand, not directed at you anymore.

Speaking from a perspective of a woman ready to leave, I have to say I agree with the 'shut out' explanation, though that's not necessarily what's happened in my case. However, as I posted on the other thread, it's a tough go for men, because studies have shown that when women make the decision to leave, they are usually done. Not to say you can't reverse the course, but women tend to give it all they've got and then-some, before they separate.

Is this wrong? Is this manipulation?


Yes and No. I partially want to know for myself if there is nothing that can be done, and to have her know for sure that there is or isn't anything that can be done. I know that that is how she feels, what she believes, but I don't think that is the true. Thinking about, I need to make sure that by asking her about what's wrong, I don't fail to acknowledge what she is saying.


Yes, I'm aware of that, but I just don't see that as synonmous with 'incompatable' or unfixable. And your right about it. W specifically said that she couldn't believe that I thought we were best friends, because she didn't feel that we were, and I understand why she feels that way.

And I realized last night that I could do a better job of being more open. Talking about us somehow made me freed me up a bit, and I was able to speak more freely, even telling her that I loved her. I find that very hard to do normally, since it's not reciprocated, I feel rather foolish and unprotected, if that makes sense.


A part of says that I need to avoid conflict, but it's reassurring to me to know that we would have to go through conflict to get to intimacy.


I think this is the case to an extent. She has told me that she has been asked out, and that she has receive compliments through Facebook (one of the reasons why she doesn't want me on there). In some sense there is an EA there. Once she first started working she became very good friends with a single mother, and I think that gave her some comfort. She also has well off parents who can provide for her in many ways. I realize I'm up against these things. They are subtle, so it is difficult to Plan A them so to speak. I see them as things that have to be addressed before intimacy can be reached, but when she wouldn't be willing to listen. That being said, I have told her that I thought internet friends was an EA of sorts, and that it hurt us, and I have told her that I felt that I had to compete with her parents.

I have waffled between conflict and withdrawl, so yes and no. I would say last night, I was definitely courting her. And I feel more confident about proceeding with that. Regarding walls, the come up when she feels threatened. I can almost see them when it happens. lately though, I feel like I can avoid butting up against it, she stops feeling threatend and comes down a bit. Last night her walls came up when I asked about Facebook, but came down some when she realized I wasn't going to blame her or judge her.

to take a line from the movie Dumb and Dumber, "so you're saying I have a chance!"

If I were her, I wouldn't want you on my Facebook either. Not right now. Give her space. Focus on yourself. Work on yourself. Take care of things you always put aside. Learn, read, grow, go back to school, whatever it takes to make you happy with YOU. Do that first. And let her do the same.

IMO, the best chance for a relationship is when two people are friends. Those two friends WANT to share everything together, cos it's better that way.

She is not at that point yet, and you shouldn't be either. You just want her back because she isn't here. Step back and let both of you breathe. You've got the rest of your lives to work on relationships, and if there is love there, focusing on yourself will make you more attractive to her. Needy is NOT attractive.

Ok?

Yes, I get that, which was part of the reason I had a hard time talking about it with her. I wasn't looking to invade space, or suggest that there was something wrong with not wanting me there. I got the impression that she wanted me out because she didn't feel like she could be herself around me, and that's what I wanted to address. I don't care about facebook, other then it would make sending pics back and forth a little easier.


She has some rather religious friends who have told her she needs to work it out with me for religious reasons. I've found myself telling her that I wouldn't want to be with her because God said so, I wanted to be wanted. And yes, I want to be friends first, but I also want to keep the door open and be ready to act when it's time.


Yes, I understand that too, and probably need to focus on that a little more. Again though, I want to be ready, I don't want to drift too far away.

Well you have the kids to keep you in contact, right? Focus on that for now.

fwiw, the person who looks the most desirable is the one who doesn't need you.

That's exactly how I would feel if I were her.

That seems like such a fine line to me.



Well, she said that wasn't the case, but regardless how do you move to being where you can be yourself? Don't you have to take baby steps and test that boundary every once in a while? A couple months ago, she would barely talk to me, and yesterday she said we were friends. I have stepped out of her comfort zone, for sure, but I've done what I can to make her feel like she was still safe.


edit: I feel like I'm coming off as being rather stubburn. I am listen and taking everything to heart, even if it doesn't appear that way.