It is never a burden but I do not want to post only when I am miserable or without great thought. It is too important to treat with disregard and I hate to only post when miserable. LOL, and miserable is most of the time still.

Everyone here has been through hell and back. I thought I was special for a while, nobody had hurt like me. Well, now I know. We all suffer. I used to think that and EA was nothing and that I would have been happy to have suffered "just" an EA. Now I know. Betrayal is betrayal. It stinks and no one deserves that from another human.

I really hope to sit down this afternoon or evening and put down what I have been thinking about. It may just be one small step or I may have found something that makes a huge difference. I don't know yet but I suspect it might help you some, just maybe. Let me get the time and think it through and I will put it down. It is so hard to put feelings into words and have them come out right and it is so important that they do. Maybe it is something we can both use and work out between us by adding to it. That would be nice and maybe it is something you came to a long time ago and you can tell me how it worked for you.

I am so sorry you are back to feeling bad. You were so up before. I hate that I hate that I hate that. Rollercoaster. Man it really stinks.

sss-
while i agree that betrayal is betrayal- and that the pain is immense for any kind- i do think that long term betrayal- as you and i have experienced- is so different than a ONS or one affair of 6 months- etc.

i need to rethink my entire life in a new framework that i was not aware of before- and reframe who i was and what i was doing.

what started our downward spiral was two things- 1) my H bringing up EE to discuss on our weekend away - and talking about an editorial that said she should not have written the book and become so public as it was hurting her children and 2) my husband telling me this past week that my long emotional e mails that i was sending him were too long for him to read at work and that he didnt have time.

this last one hurt alot- as it had taken forever for me to begin to express feelings to him again. now i dont feel safe again in doing that- even in an e mail.

so i wait to see if i can begin to trust him again- he has apologized, explained that he was rushed at work that day with deadlines, and promised not to do it again- yet i still dont want to be vulnerable with him yet.

i need to feel safe again before i do get expressive. has this kind of thing happened to you?

sf

Well I do know your sitch and I did look at your thread but it had been left by the time I started really looking around. Frankly, if you had been still posting to it I do not feel I have much to offer anyone who seems to have gotten far past what I am dealing with. I have little confidence that I know anything at this point that could possibly help anyone who is ahead of me in this game and am loathe to post something that is not helpful. You are one of the amazing posters who I look for and am grateful for, I feel more your student. Do you know what I mean? Do you have an active thread that I could post to? I really would like to have more communication with you.


Thank you. It was a bad time compounded by the days coming that used to be important but were now only sad reminders of the lie my life had become and I was not taking it well and GM could not respond to me but only to himself. To give him credit, he did not say a word about our anniversary on that day. He actually did what I asked, not what he wanted to do and that is HUGE. I expected one tiny "happy anniversary" no matter how I felt about it because that is what he would have done before. Nothing. For GM that was an amazing feat, he did what I needed not what he needed.


Yup, I do know that and at some point I will be ready to stop it one way or the other.

Thanks. (((Vittoria)))
I am sorry if I seemed selfish, I am/was at this point but will try to look outside my own situation more.

I need some help here with an idea. I think this works for me but it really is not MB perfect. If I understand it correctly we are not supposed to be bringing up the OW or the A and trying to move on ahead to recovery. I know that does not happen right away probably for most of us, at least not until all the shouting is over and we tire of it.

By carefully listening to all said here about GM I realize that he is a different animal. I have never had a loving marriage, really never even had a marriage to look back on or to try to work to get back. I have a chronic liar, cowardly, addiction prone taker who has no boundaries or conscience in regards to me. I have never seen him treat another breathing organism like he has treated me, therefore I know there is a good man in there but I need that good man for me too. I have someone here who has gone about his life as if I were his slave and he was independent without responsibilities. His father was just like this and had open affairs and treated GM's mother terribly. Still this is no excuse for a grown man who knows better. He made the choice as an adult to be this person to the one he was supposed to love and protect.

So far I have seen him struggle with all of that but he did struggle instead of running away or denying it all as he has in the past. He did not justify after the first few months and he has broken down many times as he has come to realize the extent of the damage he has caused me. I do not know the man I am living with now but I really like him, could love him. Yes I know he is a person of the lie but I do know that there is no way, NO WAY he could be cheating on me now. I have covered all the bases and he is only rarely away from me. We do everything, except help each other in the bathroom, together. There are many more things but it would be way too long, just let me say that he has changed and the change is good but it has been very hard for him to do.

Still, with all the change I can not even think of trusting it. I see it, I feel it, I need and want it but I run from it. The trust may never come back. He has written extensive EP's and goes over them many times a week. He reads them to me and if he follows them he will be the most faithful and trustworthy person BUT... those EP's are only as good as the person who has to do them. That is the big problem.

Over these months I have been encouraged by the deep pain he feels when he thinks about what he has done to me. Yes it is late. I do feel like he let himself do as he pleased for all those years and is now tired and I am the home base. Yes that pisses me off to no end. Once he has gone through all the women in the NE part of our state he is back to me right? There is nothing I can do about that just as there is nothing I can do about his future behavior. Taking care of me is going to require more than a set of EP's no matter how good they are. What I need is a man who will every day, maybe twice a day, sit down and remember what he has done. I don't want him to beat himself up with it (well kinda but not forever)but remember how he destroyed me. I need him to do this because when he does it he feels all the emotions normal people feel when they realize that they have been doing the worst things in the world. I know that if he gets past this a ways that he will begin to tire of it and eventually resent it a bit. I know that he easily puts the painful things away so well that he can forget them. I do not and can't live with him doing that this time. He has to keep it up front. He has agreed that it is a good idea. It feels like the only chance I have to make this work. Once he forgets it we are done.

Now, I need outside advice about this. Is it sound? Will it work with MB? Is it smart or am I being a bit dopey about all this? Please comment. I never thought I would make it this far but here I am. I am terrified to go any farther because of all of this. I need something and this seems to be what it is that I need.

SSS, I feel so terribly bad. I read your post to me and couldn't figure out where you were coming from, why were you feeling selfish ???
I went back and reread my post related to this one of yours.

When I wrote the first sentence, my thinking was in the second one, that I've bolded out. I meant that when ever I posted to you, you came back with concern for me, SSS being selfless despite her own pain.
I should have been more clear with this and I am so sorry that I made you feel like I was waiting for your support. That was not my intention, far, far from it.

And then you go on to write nice things, you are unbelievably kind.



I don't know, I haven't read it for a very long time. I would love to pop in here to chat with you, I like your thoughts and sense of humour.

I'm glad GM did what you needed.


I am sick about this, again I am so sorry.
You did not need this.

You concentrate on you.

This is to anyone who is reading this ..... if I have not explained myself right this time, please call me on it.

I'm not ignoring your last post SSS, but I'm not able to offer anything of benefit because I just don't know.
I can say that you sound a bit more grounded, and that is good.

Hi sss-


I think this is okay, but not if you are enforcing it. I think it's okay if it's GM's approach to making sure that he is taking care of you and what you need to recover-not the M per se-but to recover you.

It's more about restitution than beating him over the head with what he did. I think about Paul and his letters to the early churches. He constantly called himself "chief amongst sinners" and other such things. It wasn't because he was punishing himself. It was because he had been forgiven so much that he was aware of where he started and the grace he had received.

Have you read "Torn Asunder" by Dave Carder? It's another good resource for dealing with infidelity. He's a pastor who counsels couples dealing with infidelity as well. It might be helpful.

Now I feel bad for making you feel bad because I felt bad! LOL, just joking....funny how that works isn't it? NO do not feel bad, you do not need that either. Let's just pass this by. I would never want you to feel badly about anything, I just felt selfish for not venturing out into so many threads and posting although I do read most of them.

I am feeling a bit more grounded. I think if GM can remember how he has lived, and this includes much more than just our relationship, he will have a better chance of avoiding being that person in the future. Now it all depends on how long he wants that. That is where MB comes in and I try to be the wife he wants. I will not be that person if his old pattern continues. If he is able to learn patterns that make him a real husband and a decent human being then we can reinforce each other and learn new patterns for our M. For me this is easy since I never wanted to be the person I had to be to survive the M. I can just be me if I can ever get past the hurt and distrust.

Thank you so much johnstwin. This is what I was looking for. There may be others who answer differently but you stated it perfectly when you mentioned Paul and restitution. I don't want him to sit there in pain every day for the rest of his life, I just want him to be aware of where he came from and to use that knowledge to not go back. If he forgets it and puts it away he has 61 years of terrible behavior that will be his norm. His norm is not going to do it for me, he must be the new man he claims he is. If he does that he will use his EP's and those EP's will feel more important to me.

I just read your post to GM. He totally agrees. He feels like it is one of the most important things he can do because it feels to me like the most important thing he can do to heal me.

Thank you, you always say things in a better way that I ever could.

SSS,

I have not posted to you before, I don't think, but I have followed your story from the beginning and what a story it is.



The majority of A's fall into the "oops I made a big mistake" category when the WS's fog clears. GM's does not fall into that category. His A's were the result of who he was and how he lived. It was a choice he made a long time ago and it became a habit. And we all know habits are hard to break.

Normally I would not advise trying to keep the A in the forefront of his mind and yours, but slowly working towards normalcy. I can't advise that in your situation. This was not one mistake, but a way of life and he must keep it in the forefront of his thoughts always or he will slip back into bad habit and behaviors over the next several years. But the problem lies in that HE has to be the one to keep his focus and not let it be locked away where he can easily let it go. If YOU keep the reminders in place then not only will you not R yourself, but you will LB enough that resentment will build because it will forever feel like punishment. And you seem to know that. So where does that leave you?

I'm sure you have established or are trying to establish good boundaries concerning the future. Have you locked them in place? Do you have one or two particular boundaries that deal directly with not only other infidelities, but certain behaviors as well? Those boundaries are what will protect you. Those boundaries are what you have control over.

GM should know what those boundaries are so HE can keep up the EPs that he must. It is his job. It has to be his job. Your job is to maintain your boundaries. So if you see him slipping you will have already sorted out what you will not stand for and you will act on it. Don't make it any harder for you to R. Just have those boundaries solid.

(((((SSS))))))

This is exactly the problem I was having. I could not let things be too happy and seem too good because he would totally forget what he has done and what his inclinations (habits) were. It was holding me back and stopped my desire to even work the program. He as much as said to me that when things were good it seemed like none of the other stuff had happened. It was his way of life from the time he was tiny, he was never held accountable. In fact his parents thought his horrible behavior was funny and they used it as funny family stories. It was reinforced constantly and added to the fact that his father was just like GM had become. That has to go away. He now is aware that no one else thought it was funny, he has been told by mothers of his old childhood friends that they hated when he was around because of the destruction that usually meant and the total neglect of accountability by his parents. So, it is a huge thing for him to overcome. I am not certain that if it was my problem I would even want to consider taking it on. I have to respect that he is trying but still remain very cautious, perhaps for the rest of my life.


Yes I do. My bottom line 2 are that there be no more infidelity of any kind and that he respect me and our marriage as the most important things in his life. If he does those two things he will have changed the entire tenor of our M. Cross them and I am done with him. Pretty much he set his own boundaries so completely in his EP's (several pages long) that I can just use them. I have a few others I am mulling but the two main ones cover most of them so I don't know if I need to put them down as separate or just include them under the banner of respect. He does have several that require me to spot certain addictive behaviors that would lead to his risky behavior. I am very familiar with them and have called him on them once since we started this. He was grateful that I saw them and addressed what was causing the stress that would lead him to look around for other relief. I do NOT want to be his parole officer or his mommy but I think I can do that for him since it is pretty new at this point. In the future he has to learn to control all of it himself. I have enough of my own work to do


Thank you. I do need to write them down so they are more solid. It is time, it has been long enough for me to have them figured out, at least the one's I need now at this point. I do also need to make some sort of plan for myself if it does not work. I saw Pepperband talking about this with sunflower and I think it is a very good idea, if nothing else it will solidify my respect for myself (and that is pretty low still) and my ability to take care of myself (always been very high, I know that I can).

Thank you for taking the time to write all of this and to plod through this disgusting story. I have a hard time justifying my desire to make this work. Part of it is sheer stubborness but the majority is knowing that this is in some ways a sickness that he has been dealing with, long established patterns. He has said that he never really questioned that it was not within his rights to do what he did. Some of that is plain entitlement, he is too old to not have known better and the rest was a pattern established long ago. His addiction habit was started by his parents with additions of either stimulants or narcotics in his baby bottle. He really has a lot to deal with on his very own. I will support him in that as long as he keeps our M and it's health front and center where it always should have been.

Right back to you! Again, thank you.

Johnstwin's post reminded me of this passage

2Cor 12:7-9
7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.



New International Version (NIV)

I agree that he needs to not compartmentalize or "forget" what he has done. Not to torture himself or you but to not slip. He is too good at living a life full of independent behavior while being cruel to the one he promised to cherish.

Is he any closer to finding a relationship with God?

That is an excellent passage. It took me several reads to get it. I read it to GM.


He thought marriage was no more than a legal piece of paper and that it did not mean he had to change one single thing about his life. Well, it did have the extra added benefit of having his own personal broodmare and scullery girl. To quote GM's father at my table..."Wench come and serve me!" complete with slamming of the silverware and a grinning GM getting to see his wife being treated the way he thought she should be. :twobyfour: He was more independent than most independent people I have ever known.


That you will have to ask him.