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Thank you Holyheart-- I think this is just what I needed to hear! I think I will print it up and carry it with me!
I will stay dark, post often, know that I cannot let my memory of H color my reality of WH.
I have to focus on recovering me-- if the marriage ever recovers that's fine, but I think I finally realized that I can't work ok both right now...
((((hh))))


Me:BS40
WXH:42
DD15; DS13; DD6
D-day:6/30/08 & 10/25/08
WH moved out 9/15/08
D: 1/15/10

"So take that look out of here, it doesn't fit you, because it's happened, doesn't mean you've been discarded." -- Big Country from "In a Big Country."
"Keep calm and carry on." -- Winston Churchill
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Originally Posted by bestfriend439
Ok, below is the latest response from WH about an email I sent him through the IM. The IM removed a lot of the original email, but the following is his responses to a couple of my statements. I won't be responding to him as I have worked to go darker and darker.
I want to respond to it here, just because I need to vent to some of this. Also, I would love feedback: is this still 'fog' on any level or is this what and how people talk about the end of relationships. I feel like he constantly has me tagged as the one not in reality and it gets so confusing.
So here it is (my original email statements are in red; his in blue):

From Mr. WH:

Unfortunately I don't see how else to respond but point by point. Sorry for the formality-this is not how I want to communicate-via email with an intermediary neither of us has ever met (sorry IM).
It upsets me when you talk to me that way on the phone....
BS, the last thing I want to feel or express with you is anger and frustration. This is my recollection of how the apprx 5 minute call went: When I called last night you answered and I asked to speak with the kids, as I always do since you have asked to have no direct contact with me. DD13 came on the phone and was being goofy for a moment talking about 'bunny ranches', she was very cute. I asked her if she got the $5 I gave DS12 to give her for her track banquet-she said she did. I then asked if she had any thoughts on what to get her grandma for her birthday. She said 'wait a minute' and I then heard you say in the background "Why doesn't he ask OW" and something about why I was even asking. Then she got back on the phone and said 'why don't you ask OW'. I said I was asking her because it's her grandma's birthday. She then said sharply "I don't know, she's your mom", essentially reflecting the attitude and words you were saying the background. At that point I became very frustrated. I then told DD13 that I was only asking because my mom is her grandma and she had recently spent a weekend with her grandma and might have some ideas, but since she didn't I told her I would ask DS12 and for her to put him on the phone. You then got on the phone, which was not what I expected (or for that matter what you have requested-direct contact-at this time). I was angry with you and frustrated and I didn't want to talk with you. I told you why I was asking DD13 her opinion, that I thought it was inappropriate and not ok for you to tell her to say what she did and I interrupted your response and asked to speak to Henry (you said he wasn't there) and then DD4 (you said she wasn't there). I said fine that I would call back and talk with them later (I did twice between 8:30 and 8:45 and no one answered) and hung up abruptly on you. I did not want to speak with you beyond what I said and you definitely heard me speak angrily. But I did not berate you, I didn't call you names, I didn't accuse you of anything I didn't hear with my own ears. I was also angry because I felt like this is another example of the kids being involved inappropriately-similar to how you asked DS12 to lie to me.
...I am also upset because you expressed concern for my health, yet you were rude to me on the phone. I don't like it when you disrespect me this way. This is one of the reasons I cannot have direct contact with you.
I do have a lot of concern for your health and it bothers me tremendously that you have serious health issues going on and yet all I know is you had to have emergency (I presume it was emergency) outpatient surgery to address Wednesday and needed me to have the kids overnight. You're someone I love and care deeply about and despite everything else that's happened-the mistake I made, the choice I made about not being with you anymore-I still care about you and want you to be well-much more than you realize.

If my rudeness on the phone felt disrespectful, I'm truly sorry. But frankly, it feels like being rude, angry, frustrated or disrespectful is only something you're allowed to feel. Please don't be surprised if I get angry, frustrated or rude when such things happen and I feel as though you're encouraging them to only see things as 'Erica or them'. This is clearly your perspective because I have in fact chosen not to be with you and, at the same time, I've chosen to be with Erica. But the choice is not the same with the children. In fact it's not the same at all except I now have another home and I've done everything I can to make it plain that I am always going to be there Dad, even if I don't live in the same house with you, and that I'm not going anywhere. They are and will remain my children, my priority. Unfortunately, however, it's fairly clear that all they hear from you, directly or indirectly, is "he's chosen her over us". The central choice I've made is not to be with you, so whether I was with OW or not I wouldn't return to you or move back in. It saddens me beyond belief that the perspective they're fed day in and day out is that this is all driven by my being with OW. That somehow if I wasn't with OW this would all be different. But it wouldn't-I don't expect you to accept that-but that is something (I think quite obviously) I need to work on with the kids. Not to have them 'get' or agree with my choice, but at the very least to understand and know without a doubt how much I love and care for them, no matter who I'm with or if I have another home for them. Yet, you clearly want them to believe otherwise and what also saddens me is you apparently aren't seeing the long-term damage that's doing to my relationship with them (on top of the obvious damage my choices have caused, I take responsibility for and am trying my hardest to work on).

I don't recall ever hearing you treat a woman that way and it hurts me when you do this. I cannot help feeling the way I feel about your choice to hurt our family this way.
The implication of this statement is deeply offensive and implies that I'm behaving like an abuser because I was frustrated and rude with you in reaction to the conversation and what you were saying. Again, apparently I have no right to get frustrated or angry and you're forever the victim... This feels like either a blatant mischaracterization of me or you really have lost touch with who I was, am and continue to be.
The kids realize that you have picked OW over them, this is a conclusion that they came to on their own.... I simply hope you are spending some time in counseling looking at why you cannot commit where you are needed and not how to get the kids to "get" why you did what you did. They don't care.
The kids obviously have a lot of sympathy for you, as they should. I also think this means they're more prone to feeling the way you do. It may be that this is their 'conclusion', but it's one you clearly reinforce and one which doesn't relfect the fact that I'm picking not to be with you and regardless of who else I choose to be with, I will never pick anyone 'over them'. I have no interest or desire to get them to see things 'my way' because ultimately I think the consequence is that could hurtful toward you and harm their relationship with you. I've been very cautious about what I say to them in this regard because I respect the fact that you're they're the mom and they need you. I wish you could find the same respect for me at some point and help our children learn forgiveness, even if you're unable. I can't imagine how pushing me out of their lives, even if unintentionally, by reinforcing this view is helpful to them. In fact I think it's harming them since I so clearly want to be a major part of their lives and will forever see them as my priority. They have a loving parent who wants nothing more than to continue to be this. Yet they're being told, or at least aren't being dissuaded from believing, that I'm 'choosing' an adult partner over them. Even if they see it this way without prompting from you, it's not the reality-I love them, I want to see them much more than I see them now and be much more involved in their daily lives again, as soon as possible. At the same time I'm choosing to be with a person I love and want to be with, who despite her mistakes and like me, is also a good and loving person. I'm not going to be untruthful about or deny my feelings, as I've said to DD13. But I also have no intention of trying to force the kids to accept my relationship with OW, or to force them to see OW differently. Over time I only hope that they'll gradually begin to see things differently, based on behavior and choices going forward. I have no illusion that this will be anything but a very long road and there will always be pain and some level of resentment. I have spent many hours in counseling talking about these issues, my relationship with the kids, with you, what it means to be a loving parent, and the commitment and choices I'm making. I hope you're doing the same with your counselor. As for the kids, again, I believe they need to see a neutral counselor as soon as possible, one that can also include me given that your counselor can't (and shouldn't). I just don't believe seeing two counselors is helpful or that they'd agree. I'm asking again that you ask your counselor for her advise regarding this and let me know. I've also discussed this with my lawyer and would like to discuss more as we talk through things with our attorneys.

I want to go back to what you originally requested-you asked that we only communicate issues related to parenting or finances through the IM. I agreed and still agree. However, your email doesn't suggest you want to do this. As you know I really want to be able to talk about these things in a healthy, healing way with you-but I believe it's much better to do so with a counselor, when and if you're ever ready. I don't think exchanges like this are helpful. I think they feel cold and impersonal-it's just the nature of it-and it's not a dialogue. You don't hear my feelings and I don't hear yours. I think we need to have a dialogue and heal together-as I thought we agreed before-but not this way. I responded 'point-by-point' (which frankly just feels stupid) because I felt like I had to respond in kind. I don't want to continue this. Please let me know if and when you're ready to see a counselor or just meet face to face and please don't use the IM in this way, per what you originally asked.

bestfriend, have you considered using Marriage Builders principles, most especially PLAN B? My suggestion would be to try PLAN B.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by Lexxxy
Good grief -- who is your IM???

None of this should have come through ANY direction -- not from you to him...and not from him to you...

This is a MESS.

BF, do you have an IM? If so, does she not know that the whole point of an IM is to prevent this kind of bullcrap from coming through? The IM is supposed to be a SPAM FILTER who only passes on VITAL information about finances/visitation. This should never have reached you.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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ouch, ML! I was excited to see that you posted to me, but now a bit confused. Are you being sincere or sarcastic? I know I need to be in very dark b, I have failed in that. I understand Texans to be straight-shooters. If you are being genuine, thanks, plan b is what I need. If you are being sarcastic, that doesn't help, that hurts,

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bf, I am serious, have you considered Plan B?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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theoretically, I've been on B since november 08. What's probably confusing you is the completely weak attempt I have made of this MB principal. I think what I realized today is that I have been torn between recovering me or the marriage. I think my only goal can be to recover myself. I hope that keeps me focused enough-- otherwise it feels like any contact with WH kills off another little bit of me.
I'm glad you were serious....


Me:BS40
WXH:42
DD15; DS13; DD6
D-day:6/30/08 & 10/25/08
WH moved out 9/15/08
D: 1/15/10

"So take that look out of here, it doesn't fit you, because it's happened, doesn't mean you've been discarded." -- Big Country from "In a Big Country."
"Keep calm and carry on." -- Winston Churchill
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bf, what you are doing is not Plan B. What you are doing is more likely to PREVENT marital recovery than aide it.

Plan B works in 2 ways. First off, it protects you from your H's emotional abuse and protects the remaining love you have for him. Secondly, it often has the effect of pulling a WS off the fence when he cannot get a FIX from you. What a WS wants is to get his needs met in TWO PLACES. When you go completely DARK, he quickly realizes that the OP cannot meet the needs you were meeting. This realization causes conflict in the affair and when you are not around to lovebust, they only have each other to lovebust.

What that means is that your continued contact with him has ENABLED his affair. As long as he can continue to get his FIX from you, he can continue his affair.

In order for Plan B to be effective, it has to be completely DARK. What you have been doing is essentially PLAN A with a cold shoulder. This defeats the purpose entirely.

Plan B is ALL DARK, not a little dark, in order to WORK.

Do you have Surviving an Affair and His Needs, Her Needs? The infidelity chapter in HNHN gives a pretty good description of why and how Plan B works.

Do you want some help to do this right?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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p.s. the letter is pure de fogbabble and should have never been read.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
p.s. the letter is pure de fogbabble and should have never been read.
1. I will read that chapter in HNHN.
2. I will ask my IM to let nothing through either way, except kids/ finances-- I am not strong enough (right now) to make those decisions.
Thanks a bunch...


Me:BS40
WXH:42
DD15; DS13; DD6
D-day:6/30/08 & 10/25/08
WH moved out 9/15/08
D: 1/15/10

"So take that look out of here, it doesn't fit you, because it's happened, doesn't mean you've been discarded." -- Big Country from "In a Big Country."
"Keep calm and carry on." -- Winston Churchill
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bf, if your IM needs help determining what should or shouldn't come through, please have her email me at ohmelodylane@aol.com. I will coach her through it. She should also not be sending his actual comments about finances, kids. Rather, she needs to put it in her OWN WORDS.

Have you also changed the locks so he can't barge in during child pick ups/drop offs? Does he know not to come to the door?

Are there any other ways he is getting through? Or ways he could? Have all those holes been plugged?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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locks were changed last year. I'll let charlotte know to contact you. I think my WH is typical, but sooooo "nice," it throws people off.
The other big breaches are the kids, but all I can do is buffer what I say and limit their knowledge of what I do.
Thanks again, ml -- it's been a long day and I'm hitting the hay!
BF439


Me:BS40
WXH:42
DD15; DS13; DD6
D-day:6/30/08 & 10/25/08
WH moved out 9/15/08
D: 1/15/10

"So take that look out of here, it doesn't fit you, because it's happened, doesn't mean you've been discarded." -- Big Country from "In a Big Country."
"Keep calm and carry on." -- Winston Churchill
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Y'all may as well yell at me. I am the one who put it through. I slept on it for two days, believe me, it wasn't a decision I made lightly. I gave it a LOT of thought. I prayed about it a LOT.

I thought it was important that she knows that he IS feeling her pain.

Charlotte


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That is not Plan B, Charlotte. She should not be sending him any emails about her feelings and she should not be getting emails from him. That defeats the whole purpose.

If she is going to recieve fogbabble emails from her WS and she is going to email him her "feelings", then he might as well just email her directly. GEtting fogbabble emails from her WS completely defeats the purpose of Plan B and destroys her credibilty. When she says "no contact" she either means it or she doesn't. When she doesn't mean it, he knows she has no credibility. Nor does she have any protection whatsoever from his abusive ongoing affair when she is subjected to this fogbabble.

This is not Plan B.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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As I said, it wasn't a decision made lightly.

Charlotte

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bf,

I'm so very sorry you've had this set-back. You have been so strong and made so many strides to make a good life for yourself and the kids over these past months, despite his hurtful antics. You staunchly remained dark through some very tough times, but nobody's perfect. Please don't beat yourself up.

Now that the divorce is imminent, you are hitting another deep low on the roller coaster, and I know it HURTS. Kills off the hope, and you are desperate for one last try.

I think Charlotte was too. I know you don't blame her; she cares so much for you. I believe her when she said she struggled hard to decide what to do. Maybe she saw hope; I certainly held out hope for you until recently, until it seemed he has enough waywardness to outlast your sanity. None of us can know when (or whether) a wayward will see the light. It's looking more and more like yours won't until the karma bus finds him. And I believe it will. And it will probably be too late. I know you don't WANT it to be too late. That was always my biggest fear. How I prayed that I could hold out till he "got it!" I think we all understand that pushing yourself. Most of us pushed ourselves past our limit at some point. I know I did. Forgive yourself for that.

Your WH is still enveloped in a thick coating of fog and self justification. You're right, he DOESN'T get what he did to you, or the kids, and maybe he never will. He has hardened his heart. Your best defense now is to try to harden your own heart to him. See him as the lost soul he is, by his choice, and don't let him drag you down into heII with his selfishness. HE deserves to pay the price--YOU DON'T!

Go back to darkness with the grace that you have shown almost every day since your nightmare began. You haven't done it perfectly, but you have done it well, and better than many. You have found peace in darkness before...let it protect you now.

And allow yourself your humanity. Forgive yourself for trying too hard, too long. Hold your head high. I know you gave it everything you had. You know it too. Rest now.

((((bf))))

RHW

Last edited by rightherewaiting; 05/18/09 07:12 PM.

Me BS 61
Him FWS 63
Married 40 years
D-Day 6/30/06
Still can't believe it.
6/08 Recovering nicely. Anything is possible!
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Pssst...BF...Mel also scolded me about not doing a real Plan B. And she was right. I did a kindof, sortof, morphed version. I credit my resistance to my own fog. But, with time and determination and the D in the works, Plan B is really Plan Blessing.



M 25 yrs, 3 teens
Dday 12/07
5ish False Recoveries (all in 2008)
12/08 WH moves in w/OW, her kids
Plan B/D/FU -- depending on the day
He files 1/09; D final 12/2012
"I'm moving on"
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I realize its hard to be an intermediary, but its even harder for a embattled BS to have NERVOUS BREAKDOWN because she won't go into Plan B. Plan A was never meant to be a way of life. Exchanging emails with a WS is about as wise as negotiating with a terrorist. Contacting him after he has been told "no contact" does not reflect well on one's true committment to Plan B. Especially after you have just told him "no contact." Contact not only gives the WS a "FIX" he needs to continue his affair, but keeps the BS enmeshed in the sick, abusive triangle, which is bound to have ramfications on her mental and physical health.

This contact completely DEFEATS the purpose of Plan B and cannot be defended rationally.

bestfriend, if you need help with this, please just email me. This is too serious to play around with. I am terribly concerned that you have been exposed to this abuse for such a very long time. I am concerned about you!

Here are Dr. Harley's comments about WHY a BS should go into Plan B, and bestfriend, the next time you feel tempted to contact your H or to READ any of his emails, please remember this:

Dr. Bill Harley: "When a WS refuses to leave the lover, there are no good options for the BS. At first, plan A is recommended because there is a slim hope (15%) that, with encouragement, a WS will make the decision to leave the lover. But 85% don't do that, even when plan A is implemented perfectly. That leaves two other choices which are both bad. The first is to continue plan A indefinitely, trying to encourage the WS to leave the lover, and the second is to initiate plan B, which is to completely separate from the WS. The problem with a coninuation of plan A is that it usually leads to severe emotional symptoms, including years of post-traumatic stress disorder, even when the WS eventually returns. Many women that I've counseled actually have nervous breakdowns in their effort to draw their WS back to them. Instead of making the BS attractive to the WS, plan A actually makes these poor women so unattractive that it completely eliminates all hope of reconciliation. And 95% of all affairs eventually "die a natural death." If you do absolutely nothing, they usually end.

So I've recommended plan B rather early in the effort to separate the WS from his lover."



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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BF, I wanted to point out a few key things in your emails to him:

Quote
It upsets me when you talk to me that way on the phone....

...I am also upset because you expressed concern for my health, yet you were rude to me on the phone. I don't like it when you disrespect me this way. This is one of the reasons I cannot have direct contact with you.

Have you actually sent him a Plan B letter that says no contact?

Quote
The kids realize that you have picked OW over them, this is a conclusion that they came to on their own.... I simply hope you are spending some time in counseling looking at why you cannot commit where you are needed and not how to get the kids to "get" why you did what you did. They don't care.

This is the kind of comment that leaves a bad taste in a WS' mouth because it is lovebusting. When you lovebust a WS who is in an affair, they compare your behavior to the OP, who is NOT lovebusting, which only serves to make the OP look better. So, when you really do go dark, being lectured and badgered and judged is the last thing he will remember. That is why it is important to NOT lovebust before you go dark.

bf, which MB books have you read about Plan B?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I read SAA, but I think I need to read it again. I know I have broken contact and for the most part it hase been to lovebust. My fog still tells me if I point out one more time how he's hurting us, he'll stop. Nope.
I think in this past month, though, there have been enough examples of my behavior that I found scary that I am afraid of losing myself. I don't think R of the M is more important than my sanity.
Sitting and reading his last email and crying uncontrollably again is not where I hoped to be nearly a year from D-day.

And I know he feels pain, but its clear to me that he feels it less intensely and it primarily about how others are viewing him -- not about what he's losing. From his perspective, he's gaining everything he's ever wanted -- he just has to get through this rough patch.

So, no contact will mean no contact. I've asked my IM to stop me if I send anything that should not go through and to block all but the most vital responses. BTW, I KNOW Charlotte has my best interests at heart and I think its just time to step up buffering bestfriend because I have a hardtime doing it myself. This is where I ask for help, which I don't always do when I need to.
When he called last night I just walked away. I didn't ask the kids anything about it. I sent a message to him through the IM about finances and asking him to take the kids two nights this weekend since its a holiday. I am going out of town with a friend and stay in a yurt in the woods. As much as I want to be with my kids, its time I "let" them be with him as much as possible so I can work on myself.


Me:BS40
WXH:42
DD15; DS13; DD6
D-day:6/30/08 & 10/25/08
WH moved out 9/15/08
D: 1/15/10

"So take that look out of here, it doesn't fit you, because it's happened, doesn't mean you've been discarded." -- Big Country from "In a Big Country."
"Keep calm and carry on." -- Winston Churchill
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Originally Posted by Dancing_Machine
As I said, it wasn't a decision made lightly.

Charlotte

((((((((Charlotte)))))))
I know, Charlotte, and please know I would truly be insane already if you weren't here!!
"Shields Up! Romulan Bird of Prey incoming!!" wink
BF439


Me:BS40
WXH:42
DD15; DS13; DD6
D-day:6/30/08 & 10/25/08
WH moved out 9/15/08
D: 1/15/10

"So take that look out of here, it doesn't fit you, because it's happened, doesn't mean you've been discarded." -- Big Country from "In a Big Country."
"Keep calm and carry on." -- Winston Churchill
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