indarkness, why would you hold a decent converstation with him? He is the enemy of your marriage and the enemy of your children's family. Rather than being "decent" with the fox at the door of the henhouse, how about focusing on causing him as much conflict as possible? Being decent with him while he actively strives to destroy your family makes his job easier. This is not a decent man.

As far as telling your children, let me assure you that no person alive is ever ready to do that, but it is best for all concerned. Kids can deal with the truth, they cannot deal with lies. You are hurting your kids and your wife by not telling them. As long as your kids don't know the truth, your wife is free to manipulate them with her "version." Not to mention the fact that they will be confused about the turmoil in the house and not understand the source. Your wife is free to bring the OM around your kids if they don't understand the OM is their enemy. I would suggest you are making a huge mistake by not telling your kids, indarkness.

[I went and found an old post and edited it to address your thread...I know you aren't really at this issue yet...but it's been brought up and it's something to think about. Sorry it's a bit choppy.]



What State are you in???

If you live in a state with a solid paternity presumption, such as Alabama, California, Minnesota, North Dakota, Florida, Kentucky, Michigan, Pennsylvania or Wyoming, then IF you recover with your wife AND YOU CHOOSE to raise the child as your own...you can essentially lock out the OM. OM will have no standing by law whereupon he can compel a paternity test. The child will be yours and you can successfully BLOCK OM from ever interferring with your family (again, IF you choose this route which IMO is the best route to ensure "NO CONTACT" and thus save your marriage which is the best case scenario for ALL your children).


In these states the law remains very unclear (meaning there is no statutory framework on the books and the case law has not been finally determined):

Missouri, New York, North Carolina, Rhode Island & South Dakota


All other states do not recognize or apply the paternity presumption. In these states, OM's have the right to sue, demand a paternity test and, if established, be given some, or God forbid, all father's rights. Meaning he has to power to forever intrude upon and interfere with your family. Chances are he would only get limited visitation but he'll still be given access to the child and bring evil upon him/her and the entire family. Upside to this is that very few OM's actually sue or seek this. Most are content to disappear (or negotiate away most or all of their rights) and allow the OC to be raised by the BH regardless of what state you are in.

On the other hand, some BH's can handle and feel it's necessary to make the OM step up and accept responsibility (and consequences) for their behavior. They want OM listed as the father and if OM won't admit to such then the BH's and FWW's have the legal right everywhere to sue the OM to prove paternity. If and when the DNA match is established they are willing to give up some father's rights to OM (if he WANTS any rights), but regardless, OM has to then pay child support for the children. Presuming your wife is a stay at home mother that could be a nice chunk of change. In your case, you may feel that YOUR four children shouldn't be cheated out of resources when you have to pay for things for the OC whom is not your BIOLOGICALLY legitimate child. If that's what you want you can FORCE him to take responsibility. Some BH's raising OC's feel it's important that the OM PAY for his crime...financially. To each his own....I, personally, feel OM "fathers" are merely sperm donors that "signed" the adoption certificate the moment they left their seed behind in another man's wife. She's your wife and any child born unto her...is your flesh, regardless of where some of the original biological material came from (for example, if you and her went to a sperm bank because you were rendered infertile, would the resulting child not be yours????).

Of course, these paternity laws are ever changing and the resource I used to list these states is several years old. Also, realize that these laws typically are utilized by married men trying to escape responsibility for children that are not theirs. For example, I believe in Michigan (my state) if a married man finds out 25 months after the child is born that the kid is not his he is still presumed to be the father by law and on the hook regardless for statutorily computed child support. These laws are typically not used by OM's to establish rights as they typically don't want the financial obligation along with severly limited visitation. Further, most of these paternity presumption issues only arises IF the affair ends and you reconcile...once it's over and both parties withdraw...the fog typicallly clears on both sides of the fence, fww's AND OM's. Only a psychotic former OM would SUE for father's rights over an OC (there's a thread here about such a case in KY that is utterly disturbing). They generally realize the damage they have done and either purposely or accidentally (by avoidance) make amends by respecting the wishes (whatever they may be) of one of their biggest victims...the BH, typically NOW raising their biological child. They CHOOSE to stay away and let you live in peace (and, of course, NOT pay).

Mr. Wondering

p.s - A Married FOM with children is MUCH MUCH MUCH more likely to sign off and/or walk away from an OC. His wife will make him. The LAST thing she wants is HER money going to your wife (the OW to her). In fact, you said they were thinking of leaving the state....avoiding child support MAY be one big reason for them to do so. You'll have to hunt him down if YOU choose to make him accept paternity and pay and in many states, you'll have a limited window of opportunity to do so (2 years in Michigan).

indarkness: Are you still checking in? How are things going?

I understand your concerns about telling your children, but they really do need to know. Kids are very perceptive and they probably already know something bad is going on. Better that they know the truth instead of letting their imaginations run wild. Kids are very strong. They can deal with things, but they have to know what it is that they are dealing with.

I actually was told by my bishop not to tell my kids. Even after I discovered that I was pregnant with the OM's baby, my bishop suggested I lie and tell my kids that the baby was my H's. And my kids were teenagers and knew very well that my H had had a vasectomy over 10 years ago! Bishops mean well, but they aren't trained counselors and they don't always understand the best ways to deal with these kinds of situations.

As far as the OC being a constant reminder, I know it might seem that way right now, but it won't always be like that. My H and I are raising my OC. She is an absolute joy! My H loves her as his own. For all intents and purposes, we are a very normal, happy family now. We didn't get here in the most conventional of ways, but we have made it work for us. Neither of us could imagine our lives without our beautiful daughter, and to us, she really is OUR daughter. The OM is not involved in her life at all.

How is your wife doing? How is the pregnancy going? Please check in and let us know how things are going.

>I lie and tell my kids that the baby was my H's

Guess what Writer? The baby IS your husbands. DNA aside, that child is HIS! So you didn't have to lie to your children!

Just because he's a Bishop doesn't mean he's wise on this issue.

ID, the OCs are in our custody now. They are MY kids...*I* am the one who dropped them off their first day, I am the one at doc appointments, I dispell their bickering and teach them to color in the lines.

THAT is what makes a parent. The OCs are INDIVIDUALS, little human beings that are wholly themselves. They are NOT defined by their begetting because it is not something they had a hand in.

Dealan-de: I agree. The baby is my H's. But our Bishop wanted us to lie and not tell the kids anything about the A at all and let everyone believe the baby was my H's biologically as well. I just wasn't comfortable with that. My kids were older, 14-18, and I thought they deserved to know the truth. I also think my OC deserves to know the truth about her biology when she is old enough to understand.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but isn't there some Big Rule that was handed to Moses that mentioned something about lying?

Um...like NOT to do it?

When a man of the cloth - no matter what cloth it is - ENCOURAGES sinnin' and damnin' oneself, well I think it's time to take a good hard look at that man's leadership abilities.

Don't think there is anything in the Good Book...ANY Good Book that says it's okay in CERTAIN situations to fudge a bit.

writer1, yes, I'm still here. My WW doesn't give me much time alone so I can't check in all the time. However, I *really* appreciate your perspective. My wife has changed so very much in the past 7 weeks that it's hard for me to see the good in her. Hearing your perspective helps a lot.

I've read SAA, I've read most of the articles on this site and I figured I was prepared for most anything but it's still shocking how completely evil the Waywards become. Lies, deception, hate, anger - it's all they know at this point. Right now, I cannot trust my wife, AT ALL. It's so depressing.

We are going to see a Marriage Counselor tonight. She agreed but reluctantly. My WW currently has absolutely no plans or interest whatsoever in fixing the marriage - I think she just wants someone to vent to. It'll probably be therapeutic.

She already broke the "NC" briefly. I intercepted some e-mails (she was using my address) before they could be deleted and it sounds like OM is trying to stick to it. They have no idea I know, so I got a completely open view. However, I think they are scheming. There are plans in place that I don't know about yet. She is trying to kick me out of the house, but I won't leave unless I'm dragged out by the police. No way I'm leaving the home open to the OM.

Also, Dealan-de, try to remember that an LDS Bishop is just like any other member of the Church. He has no formal training and is doing his best to protect the welfare of the family and the children especially. I think the knee-jerk reaction of any caring individual is to try to spare the kids the heartache. I get your point about lying but he didn't do it maliciously, I'm sure. But yes, I agree, the kids can take it. I'm just not sure how my WW is going to react...

Exposure makes a WS go wild. Ignore her, change the subject. Exposure is the wind that drives the fog. Exposures need to be done in one large explosion. And without her knowledge so that she cannot twist the facts.

Remember, the kids have been betrayed too. It needs to be explained at their level of understanding.

A question:

Through my WW's actions and the level of exposure she has lost all support from past friends - there is not a single person who is currently supporting her - I know this for a fact. I can tell that this is taking a severe toll on her, particularly with her pseudo-NC in place. She's not too interested in talking to me right now .

My WW is a very social person and needs friends. I have considered encouraging her friends to approach her and try to reach out to her but I'm worried that just may, either directly or indirectly, encourage her. Or may just lead to more cake eating.

Is it better to leave my WW alone to suffer for a bit or should I encourage her friends to begin talking to her again?

I'd suggest you get friends that are supportive of the marriage to talk to her. They don't have to be judgemental. They can say, "I want to be your friend. You have made some mistakes, but we all do. What you do from here on is what defines your character." Then, if WW tries to normalize her A, they can say, "I am a friend to you and to your marriage. I will NOT ever be a friend to a homewrecking lowlife like your OM."
Oh, and BTW,
I don't think you've exposed enough. If the M ends, you'll never look back and say, "Gee, I guess I shouldn't have exposed so much." You'll kick yourself for not fighting harder.

I don't know that psychologically it is good for anyone to be completely and totally isolated. I think there is something to be said for "love the sinner, but not the sin." I know it's difficult for you to see right now, but your WW is still the woman that you fell in love with. She may not look or act like that woman much at the moment, but she is still in there. It really helps if you keep in mind that an A is an addiction. It clouds the mind just like any drug and makes clear thinking almost impossible.

Your WW is very confused right now. I wouldn't put too much faith in anything she says at the moment. An A completely messes up your thinking. The wayward has no idea what they really feel or think.

You are at the most difficult stage of all this right now. I don't envy you. It isn't a place I would ever want to return to. But you can make it through this. I can't guarantee how things will work out for you, but I can share what happened with me and my M. I was certain that I could never love my H again. I was certain that I wanted to end my M and be with the OM. I was certain that I was in love with the OM. None of this was clear, realistic, logical thinking, but I couldn't see that at the time. My love for the OM felt real, and my feelings for my H, who I had once loved very much, were muted and very far away.

It took a long time for me to slowly realize what was happening. We didn't know anything about MB at the time, but my H essentially instigated a Plan A without realizing it. He just determined to love me no matter what. Even when I told him I didn't have any feelings for him anymore and wanted a D, he still loved me. He never stopped, and now, I am so glad that he didn't. I eventually realized how much my H loved me (something I didn't truly believe before) and, for me, that changed everything. I finally realized that I had something in my M worth saving.

It hasn't been an easy road, but it does get easier everyday. For now, I would advise you to stick with Plan A for as long as you can. Meet your WW's EN's. Tell her you love her, even though it might seem as though she doesn't want to hear it. Stay centered and focused. Don't forget to take care of yourself and children too. I know it's scary, but I would seriously consider telling your children as soon as possible, in terms that they can understand. "Mommy is making some bad choices. That doesn't make her a bad person, but she is making bad decisions right now. Mommy has a boyfriend, and married people aren't supposed to have boyfriends or girlfriends." They likely already know that something very bad is happening in their family, and it will be so much easier for them to deal with it if they know what that bad thing is.

And no, I don't think my bishop acted maliciously in any way. I love my bishop very much. He has stood by me through a lot of things, and I am very grateful for that. Bishops are only human, and they do the best they can. They don't have any specialized training in counseling these types of situations, so I'm sure he was simply offering the best advice that he could. In the end, I knew that honesty was the best option. It was the most difficult thing I ever had to do, telling my kids about my A. It helped that my H and I had already decided to try and save our M and that we told them together.

I will keep you and your family in my thoughts and prayers. Let us know how things are going.

writer1:

So at what point did you decide you wanted to fix the M? Did you initiate NC or did the A just die a natural death? Sorry if I'm being intrusive, I don't know your story.

Right now, I just don't see my WW voluntarily starting NC or doing anything other than D. She's threatened it several times but has made no motions in that direction. She's completely in the "we're soul mates and this is so right" mode. Bah - it's like watching two confused teenagers.

As I said in a previous post, I've got a sufficient supply of energy and patience, at least right now, that I feel like I can get through at least a 3-month Plan A. But I've told her that if we are married at the time the baby is born that I have full custody (we're in CA). This might push her into D, I don't know. Still, in CA, divorce is, at a minimum, a 6-month process. She's due sometime in June 2010, but she's always early, so probably May. If she's going to file for D in time to avoid the complexities of custody, she's going to have to do it soon.

She's going to fight me to the death about telling the kids...

My A lasted 6 months. It was mostly long-distance. I met OM at a residency for my MFA program. We are both writers. We would spend 2 weeks every 6 months on campus at our college in Vermont. We were friends for a year before our A began. It began during a summer residency, continued long distance over the next 6 months, and resumed at the next winter residency. When I went to the winter residency, I was already having serious doubts about continuing the A. I went to the residency determined not to rekindle the A, since at that point, I was leaning toward working on my M. However, I was weak and caved in to the temptation. In hindsight, I realize now that going back for that residency in such an emotionally fragile state was the worst thing I ever could have done.

When I returned from the residency, I told OM that I wanted to focus on my M. Two weeks later, I found out I was pregnant. My H knew about the A from the very beginning. I told him the day after it started, so he suffered through my pendulum of emotions for the entire 6 months I was involved in the A. When I told him I was pregnant, he immediately said that he still wanted to work on our M and that he wanted to raise the baby as his. My H is a very incredible man. I don't think a lot of men would have done what he did.

I stayed in contact (long distance, since he lives in New Hampshire and I live in CA) until my OC was 11 months old. I thought I had no choice, since we had a child together. At first, OM wanted to play a small role in OC's life. I would send him email updates about my prenatal visits, and later the baby's checkups. He has never seen her. In spite of his initial desire to be a part of her life, I put my H's name on the birth certificate and gave her my H's last name. Eventually, OM decided he did not want to be a part of OC's life. We have been completely NC since the beginning of September.

Lots of waywards threaten D. It is classic wayward behavior. So is taking absolutely no action towards actually getting a D. I threatened D many times. I never filed. I never even contacted a lawyer. I wouldn't worry about the threats too much. If she was serious, she would do something about it. The fact that she hasn't is a good sign.

I'm glad you are in my state, because I know something about the paternity laws here because of what we went through. In CA, the H is presumed to be the father of any child conceived during the M. That means that, according to CA state law, you are already the presumed father of your wife's OC. You were married when the child was conceived, so for all intents and purposes, you are that baby's father in every legal sense of the word. The only way this could change is if a paternity test were performed. If the OM wants a paternity test, he would have to petition the court for one and you could fight it. You would very likely win, especially if your WW snaps out of her fog and decides that she wants to save her M. If both you and your wife decide to stay together and raise this child as your own, there will likely be very little the OM will be able to do about it.

As far as telling the kids, if your wife isn't onboard, tell them yourself. There's nothing like the slap-in-the-face of a little child asking mommy why she's hurting daddy by dating another man to jerk her back into reality. The more people you expose to, the more the fluffy fantasy world your WW is living in will be blown to pieces. This might be a very important step in helping your WW to realize that she isn't merely going to be able to D you and M OM and live happily ever after. She needs to realize that none of the people who care about her and love her - her children, her family, her friends - will ever accept her relationship with the OM. Since a pregnancy is involved, the sooner this A blows up in her face, the better. You and your WW will be on much stronger ground legally with this child the sooner the both of you get on the same page regarding the direction of your M.

I'm wondering... Does your WW know about MB? Would she be willing to come on here? Has she read any of Dr. Harley's books? I think "Surviving an Affair" would be especially helpful. I was amazed by how textbook my A was when I read the stories in SAA. Before that, I thought my relationship with the OM was so different, so much more 'special' than the typical A. Turns out, I was just like every other foggy wayward. The book was a real eye-opener for me.

She is not aware of MB. I was thinking of having her just read the opening story of SAA since it is *so* much like her affair, minus the pregnancy (which of course is not a minor detail). Don't know if she will, however. She's a stubborn beast.

So, unfortunately, unlike your situation, the OM is quite near which makes NC difficult. She has not had any "awakening" of any kind and is thoroughly convinced that she and the OM are "soul mates" and that what they are doing is absolutely the right thing. The OM claims he has "prayed about it and had confirmation that he's on the right path" - what a crock. The spirit is gone, all he feels are his own feelings. Very frustrating. I'm praying for an Alma the Younger moment...

Hi indarkness,
Most here won't understand the BOM quotes but as I'm in SLC I do.
Sorry you are here and let me know if I can help anyway.

Even if you could get her to read the opening story of SAA, that might help. I was surprised how much of myself I saw in that story.

The OM prayed about it and received confirmation that he was doing the right thing? Hmmm.... I'd have to wonder who he is praying to and receiving confirmation from? It certainly couldn't be the God of any Christian religion. I don't recall the Bible or any of the other scriptures containing any stories where A was condoned. This just goes to show how deeply foggy and messed up wayward thinking can become.

I don't know how others handle NC when they live close to the AP. I have heard that moving is often recommended. If your M has any chance at all of surviving, I would imagine that a move would be necessary, especially if the OM is in your ward.

How long has your WW's A been going on? I didn't get pregnant until 6 mos. into my A, so by then, the A was already beginning to die a natural death. Almost all A's eventually die. The timeline seems to vary. I've heard anywhere from 6 mos. to 2 years. I'm glad mine was on the shorter side. I don't think I could have survived 2 years of that.

Also, I don't recall if you said whether or not the OM is married. If he is, does OM's wife and/or children know about the A? What is the status of his M?

Good...California...a solid paternity presumption state.

As far as bringing your wife here...I wouldn't until she's actually in "no contact". You need this place to strategize and get support in private.

As an alternative, I often recommend going to the following link for the free edocument "31 Reasons to Stop an Affair". I further recommend that you print the document and just leave it laying around for your WW to find and read on her own. WW's do not take kindly to being taught by their BH's. If you hand it to her as an assignment of sorts, she WON'T read it past the first sentence. However, if she just finds the document and thinks you've read it (which I recommend you do and even place a few notes and scribbles around the document for your wife's benefit to make it clear you've read it and further entice her to read it) she'll read it in an attempt to figure out what "crap" you are reading and to figure out what your comments in the margins relate to. She likely won't agree with the document but she can't "unplant" the seeds once they are absorbed. Planting seeds is the most you can hope to accomplish at this point.

Here's the link - 31 Reasons to Stop an Affair

As an added bonus...you'll be throwing her off the MB trial should she snoop around to figure out where you are reading and, perhaps, posting about the situation. Because the document is from another infidelity website she'll be over there looking for you and not here.

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - You don't have to get her agreement to expose to the kids...just do it and then mildly apologize for it after the fact. As in "ooops, my bad". Once the cats out of the bag she can't put it back in. The sooner you do this the better. Also beware of common strategies WW's use to FORCE men out the home. Restraining orders and claims of abuse are a common tactic of the desperate WW. Having a recorder handy can be a beneficial tool to disprove fictional abuse stories. But regardless, be careful and whatever you do ... respect the cops if they are ever to appear at your doorstep. If you don't respect the cops...the courts will never respect you as they are on the same team.

You don't need WW permission to expose the affair and OC to the kids.

Have you exposed WW parents and her siblings?

The A has been going on for about 10 weeks now and she is about 7 weeks pregnant.

OM was married, OMW definitely knows and is moving w/kids to Utah. Don't know if OM is going to allow that or not. For now, says he will allow it but WW says he is ready to file for legal separation, possibly to get kids back??? Don't know.

WW parents know and are on my side, same with her siblings. Basically, the only people who don't know are people that wouldn't care, so no point in exposing to them. Oh, and my kids. Yes, I know, they need to know - yikes, that's scary.

WW and OM have agreed to take 2-month "break". Primary reason, they claim, is obedience to bishop, counselor, stake president, etc. WW doesn't care and would run away in a heartbeat but seems to be going along with it for OM sake. I do not expect either to get through it successfully, particular with OM wife going to Utah.