I have bipolar disorder, and I had my affair while manic. That is not a reason or justification, just a fact. I was not clinically psychotic, so I am not sure if that would make a difference. But I still believe that it was a choice I made. Yes, I had all the symptoms of mania. But I was attracted to OM before that time. Something happens to the manic mind...it's hard to explain. I will say that I will NEVER be one of those who goes off meds. I don't ever want to go down that road.

Even if she is diagnosed, she will need to be willing to do a lot of work to be the kind of wife and mother she should be. It's not just about pills; it's about choices too.

If the MC can give a clinical diagnosis, this could also be used for an order of protection to stay away from the kids. Do this ONLY if you truly believe there is BPD.
My H's scumbag lawyer told him to accuse me of being unmedicated BPD in an order of protection and I had to face an inquisition from family services as a result. They saw right through it, but still, it's an abuse of the system if you don't TRULY believe the diagnosis.
Still no excuse for sociopathic behavior you're witnessing. This woman has some DEEP problems.

Just talked to lawyer. Filing for divorce ASAP before she runs off to orange county and tries to file there.

Lawyer says judge will likely see the one time in front of DS as a "discretion" but it will definitely sway custody issues. Also the fact that 3 of my DC go to school within a 1/4 mile of my house will prevent WW from running off and if she does it will be to her detriment.

MANY MANY Betrayed's show up here wondering if their spouse is mentally ill.

I did too. My wife's father was bipolar (now deceased). He had it real bad and suffered severe mania cyclically for about 5-6 months every 3 years. I wasn't until years later that the pattern revealled itself (obviously the first few times don't appear cyclical because there is no pattern...yet).

So looking at PAST behaviors is a good thing to do PRIMARILY because ALL waywards exhibit the characteristics of Bi-Polar, Narcissim and Borderline Personality Disorder. One thing to remember, all the diagnostic indicators require that you FIRST rule out substance addictions PRIOR to analyzing the criterea. Well...I consider the waywardness a psuedo-addiction. Sure, it's not a substance addiction but it sure mimics one so I don't think you can look exclusively at her behavior right now as indicating she's mentally ill..

You mentioned the high risk sexual stuff for years. What else?
Bi-polars are all unique in their manifestation of illness, but the things I saw my Father in Law do for years and what I've heard and read about the illness I thought I'd give some of my other tell-tale signs:

1. Racing - when they are manic...their thoughts race. They go off on tangents all the time. They can't stop talking and meeting up with all sorts of people to talk. Often they THINK they are networking and setting up the next big business deal...often the DEAL OF THE CENTURY. They hardly sleep at all during these periods (whereas when they cycle to depression they sleep all day and night). You'll find them writing letters to congressmen and past friends often at 3 in the morning.

2. Delusions of grandeur. They strongly believe they are the most intelligent persons in the world. The SPEND like a Rockfellar on the most stupid things (FIL rented a limo to drive him around for a month). Everything they do or make is the BEST. They invest in bogus schemes and get taken advantage of by anyone clever enough to hang around them long enough.

3. Wierd associatiions. They bring home strangers for dinner. Hire a chef to come cook dinner. You'll discover them talking for hours...seriously, with the bum on the street or even telemarketers on the phone.

4. Succesful. Bipolars have an inate drive. The mania likely has been around for years and only becomes a problem later in life when life's pressure abound. What I mean is that it's generally not a problem until it's a problem. For months leading up to full blown mania, they can work 20 hour days, 7 days a week. They can sell anything to anyone and generally make lots of money. Ted Turner is a bi-polar. So are LOTS of successful businessmen, artists and politicians. Their drive and creativity is unmatched by us lesser people. They are gregarious individuals who are and have been very dynamic people for years. They are often high respected and highly admired by others.

5. Eventually, the racing thoughts & lack of sleep reaches a boiling point where paranoia and psychosis kicks in. They detach from reality and REALLY start to go nuts. They TRY to control themselves for appearances sake to the outside world, but they will drive their family nuts (whom they will later gaslight to the outside world as the problem, not them). They will attempt to control every aspect of their spouses and kids lives. They will attempt to monopolize the family by engaging in "family conversations" which have no purpose, they will take away the family phone, barracade the door and take away everyone's keys. They always like to be in contol so they've already set the stage by having EVERYTHING in their own name so no one can complain or escape. They will deny they have a problem to the bitter end...even AFTER the mania subsides and the damage all around them financially and relationally is SOOO apparent. They LIVE in denial (men more often than women as women are MUCH more likely to medicate whereas men are much more likely to commit suicide or die an early death after a heart attack like my FIL at age 60).

6. Depression - they come down eventually and have trouble functioning at all, bi-polar women typically tend more towards the depressive side so I'd imagine their "cycles" include much more depression.

7. Bi polar runs in families. It's genetic. I've heard through the mother but I have no idea if that is true. I've also heard some people may have it (genetically) and never exhibit the illness. I've heard it considered that there are typically triggering effects in a person's life that somehow trigger the genetic defect to manifest. Again...no idea on this one.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - Is the computer the FAMILY COMPUTER. Can you claim ownership of that computer. Surely you are allowed to keylog your own computer even if it's jointly owned?

Then you better lay low and not make this a race to the courthouse. Don't give your wife any inclination you are filing.

Also...since it's just an "indescretion", again, you may want to sit on it and see if you can get her to lie under oath about it. Then you have the indescretion AND perjury going for you.

Strategize with your attorney.

Sorry you are going through this.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - whether she is bi-polar or not...at some point, getting OM to believe she is or might be is just another burden to place upon him which accumulate until he throws in the towel. You MAY choose to hint at this when you expose more to HIS family. Nothing like his momma or daddy calling him out and asking what he's doing with this married "crazy" girl. Since she's wayward she'll certainly help by playing the part of a bi-polar so even if you are wrong, medically speaking, it won't appear that way to others.

The BPD diagnosis is all very preliminary which is why I was hesitant to bring it up. It certainly is not "extreme" as to MrW but the symptoms certainly appear to be there. For now, I'm gonna kind of ignore it until I know more.

Yes, now is the time to lie low. Staying cool until papers are officially fired then the SHTF. Pregnant WW getting served with divorce papers. She's going to freak out.

Your lawyer can order psych evals for both of you - that way there can be a diagnosis officially on the record.

��"trust your parental instincts." But she also pointed out that in young children, the frontal cortex (logic center of the brain) is still developing. Their emotional core (temporal lobe??? i forget) is fully developed.��

Do you want a bottle in front of you

or

a frontal lobotomy?

Front lube, back lobe, side lobe, top or bottom lobes. Lobes smobes!

Children can handle the truth.

Children need the truth.

Your child needs the truth to understand what is happening and why. Also who is responsible. And it�s important for a child to learn that infidelity is wrong. Develop their ability to discern right and wrong.

Tell the child that mom is a WW?

I wonder if Plan D is the right decision at this point?

I mean, this site is all about avoiding D wherever possible given the very real harm it inflicts upon families, particularly children.

What my wife did was disgusting and horrible and is difficult to forgive but what's my motivation for D? Is it to protect my children? Is it to save my marriage with the hope that the threat of D will be a 2x4? Is it to get back at the OM somehow?

I just want to make sure I'm doing the right thing for the right reasons. This is no small decision.

BTW, I told my oldest DS tonight. He gets it but didn't seem overly phased by it. I'm not sure if he's going to confront WW or not. He's pretty low on confrontation so probably not. I just hope it doesn't eat him up inside. I told him he can talk to me anytime, anywhere, no questions asked. Damn. Parenting is hard enough without all this other crap to worry about. Gonna need to keep an eye on him to make sure he's dealing ok with it.

I didn't get that impression. It was more for those of us who *want* to make our M's better.

What exactly did you tell your 11-year-old? I have a hard time believing that finding out that mommy wants to uproot you and move in with a new daddy was not unsettling.
Also, there's nothing that says you actually have to DIVORCE. Just filing for divorce protects you and your kids from WW's behavior. It creates a legal record of what is going on. It keeps her from fleeing the area with your kids in tow.

"What exactly did you tell your 11-year-old?"

Exactly!

What did you say?

You only expose one child. Doing things half-but will get you no where.

Is mommy's tummy starting to show yet? How ya gonna address that one? Come on! Go all in, or don't go at all. You've probably just confused the boy is all. Make him feel SAFE with you. Make him aware that mommie is not to be trusted right now.

I think the people on here urging you to go Plan D are doing so to protect you and your COM's if your WW should happen to file for D first, or attempt to just take the children and leave. Some of them have been burned in similar situations and don't want to see that happen to you.

Only you can decide which is the best way for you to go. My H didn't attempt to protect himself at all during my A. He didn't contact a lawyer or threaten to file for D. In fact, he even said on a number of occasions that he would move out and let me have the house if that was what I really wanted. From a legal standpoint, his actions may not have been wise, but in our case, it worked. The more he showed me unconditional love, the more I doubted what I was doing. I firmly believe that it was this total and complete show of love that brought me back. It couldn't have been easy for him, especially when I was begging him to let me go back East to see the OM. He bought my plane ticket. He drove me to the airport. I have no idea how he found the strength to keep loving me through everything I did.

There are no guarantees in any of this. I can't tell you that your WW is going to come back like I did. It is a huge gamble if you decide to throw everything into saving your M. There is a lot at stake. Only you are in a position to decide what is best for you and your COM's. Pray about it. Pray very hard.

You should file and protect yourself. The statistics are way way against the approach that writer's H took. Most marriages with an A end, I bet the D stats with an OC are ridiculously high.

You don't have to be a jerk about it but you need to take the approach that you are going to keep you and the children safe.

6yearsleft: I'm sure the statistics don't look good. But, there are others on here whose M's have survived, even with an OC. I said it was a gamble. Sometimes gambles pay off. Sometimes they don't. I'm sure if my H had found this site while I was involved in my A, he would have gotten much the same advice, and our story might have turned out differently.

Really, only indarkness can make this decision. He's the one who is there, in his home, so he's probably in the best position to get a feel for which direction this seems to be going. This is his family.

I'm not saying he shouldn't file for D and I'm not saying he should. All I said was that he should take some time to think about it and pray about it before he makes a decision. This is a big step, and one that shouldn't be taken lightly or jumped into without a lot of careful consideration.

Writer, did you have sex with the OM in front of one of your children? I didn't think so. This one is a lot further gone than you were.

Imanothernone: No, I didn't. But then, at the time of my A, my youngest child was 13, so that would have been far and beyond inappropriate, don't you think?

I don't know how far gone indarkness's WW is. Neither do you. He's in a much better place to judge that than you or I.

I am only urging him to think things through and carefully consider the situation and pray about it before he makes a decision. I'm not telling him what to do - though others seem to have no problem with that.

Indarkness: Have you talked to your bishop lately? Our bishop was a great help and support to my H (and even to me) during my A. Even if your WW doesn't want to talk to him, you should. No matter what you decide, it is important to get support for you and your children right now, and the church can be a great source of support. You may want to have your son talk to him as well. Often, kids will open up more to a trusted adult who is not their parent. It would be good for your son to have someone to talk to. You should probably talk to your 8 year-old daughter soon too, especially since you suspected that your WW might be involving her somehow. I think I remember you mentioning that. Dr. Harley recommends telling kids over 7 about the A, using age-appropriate terms, of course.

Writer1, your BH is a clear, clear exception to the rule. Most men will NOT accept a situation where they're bringing up an OM's child, i.e. one that was conceived while their WW was being unfaithful to them. It's almost a primitive biological imperative to not do so. You should thank your lucky stars every day that you have a BH like you do, one who's willing to accept a situation like that. It does not happen very often at all.

writer, I agree that you and your H are extremely lucky that both of you were able to work through this. Perhaps because you were both betrayed and wayward, you could understand the situation better.
Indarkness has never been wayward, nor has his wife ever been betrayed. Therefore, Indarkness's WW does not have as much perspective as you.
Also, she's uneducated, about to be kicked out of her church, shunned by all around her, with no marketable skills. Not exactly the makings of someone who will be making rational decisions anytime soon.
I think your perspective is great, given that you can offer hope of how good it could get, but please, please know that yours is a very, very, VERY rare exception, for many reasons. I think Indarkness is doing himself a disservice if he thinks that his wife is coming to her senses any time soon. Nothing she's done has shown him that.