Mr. W, you'd have to know my WW to understand this. This is not in defense of her actions, but it is the way she is. I have learned that my WW talking, helping, doing something for, or calling back is no indication of her feelings for them.


Yes. But, I have concerns that because of the way the A started, the type of person OM is, and the above that we will never be able to make our M "safe". That weighs on my decisions about things.

Yeah, you got it.

I don't think contact is fine. I think the point that 2long was making is sometimes WS don't go NC right away, or they do, but later resume contact.

No.

Mr. W, you'd have to know my WW to understand this. This is not in defense of her actions, but it is the way she is. I have learned that my WW talking, helping, doing something for, or calling back is no indication of her feelings for them.

Ah, but it is a clear indication of her LACK of feelings for you. Either that or you are merely an obstacle to her sainthood. She is NOT a nice person right now. She hasn't been for 5 years now. She CAN change...but she has CHOOSEN not to.



Yes. But, I have concerns that because of the way the A started, the type of person OM is, and the above that we will never be able to make our M "safe". That weighs on my decisions about things.

You've been "weighing" this all for an aweful long time...2long even [haha]. Unlike ole 2long (whom I believe just suffered/endured another breach of no contact in September or so of this year ... 7 years after d-day)...you don't have NEAR the enmeshment to bear this. You don't have to settle for mediocrity. You've got a relatively short marriage, no kids, etc. In fact, remember the poster Heartsore? He's divorced, happily remarried and, I think, expecting a child with his new wife soon all WITHIN these last five years you've been here. At this point, an OK marriage just isn't worth it. Waiting any longer isn't worth it...the risk of resentment is just too much. I think having kids with your wife is likely too risky as well as marriage gets HARDER at that point and she can't even handle it now when it's just the two of you. I so want you to be a success story here. Mortarman took YEARS to recover his marriage too, I haven't gotten an update lately) but last I heard he's doing well (but he also had 3 kids with his WW so a lot more was at stake). If you want to give her one last chance...that's your perogative, but make it/require it to be one darn good effort on her part. RAISE THE BAR...don't lower it so she can merely begrudgingly skip over it. YOU MATTER.

I wanted to add...of course, divorce doesn't guarantee happiness either. But at some point you've got to determine that the likihood is BETTER taking that route. She doesn't seem to REALLY care about you and she's demonstrated that time and time again. People CAN change...but only THEY can do it...she should be strongly, dare I say, AGGRESSIVELY encouraged to head down the "change" path post haste.

Working on it.

Well, what I feel like doing is giving her one more chance. But to be blunt, I'm not so sure that is the right thing to do.

I'm at a total loss as to what a plan for giving her one more chance looks like. Requiring the MB weekend is probably a good start.

She got rid of the cell phone. She sent a NC letter to OM. Told him if he did contact her again she would seek a restraining order. She copied me on e-mails to the people she's consulting for asking the IT department to block OM's e-mail address and telling the secrataries not to give out her number to OM (or anyone) and not to connect his calls. The consulting job is over this week. I verified the OM's address, so it should have gotten to him.

Aside from that, I'm not sure what else to require at this time. Other than your basic concepts.

In understand your points MrW

All the discussion aside, my gut just doesn't feel right about any of this.

What is WW's demeanor towards you at this time?

What are you sensing?

Any of what? B, D or R?

Apologetic and remorseful.

Folks,

I will say that I know 2Long personally. We have had many discussions over the years about many things including the status of his marriage. I have read his comments and frankly he is NOT advocating anything but what Kimmy quoted. You do what you need to do "when you feel like it." Read the quote below.
2Long is in fact espousing just that and telling him it is not bad to take his time to make this decision. 2Long did not say he was happy with his marriage, he said he was happy with his life on the whole. He has never claimed he found what has gone on to his liking, but rather the consequences of ending were even less to his liking and why hurry if there is no one on the horizon.

Mel, I know you don't care for 2Long, but you need to actually listen to the man, he is NOT against MB or the plans here. He was simply explaining his choices based on advice given to him and RP by one of the very best marriage counselors in the country, Steve Harley. So you can argue dogma all you want, but you cannot argue away the advice given by Steve Harley.

Now if you want to argue with me, have a nice day. I am a strong believer in the MB approach and have been here a long time, learning many things. I am a reasonably bright man, and I still find I learn new things on this site even now. Are you learning anything new? I hope so.

God Bless,

JL

That deep down her goal is to convince me to decide we are just not compatible. Not so she can see OM or anything like that, but just so I'll divorce her and leave the M feeling like we tried.

The comments about what she posted here make me feel that way. She never mentioned anything like that to me. She's been told by any and everyone that she's got to bring that stuff up. So much so, that it is impossible to conclude that she doesn't get that.

The latest developments with my WW.

I haven't read this thread in it's entirety, but what I have read leads me to believe that she is still actively in A with the OM. Ans has convinced herself that you and she are just not "compatible" and THAT'S the reason the M won't ever work- not the A with the OM.....

Which is backwards logic. Are you sure she isn't currently seeing the OM behind your back?

Well, you can never be 100% sure of anything. But yeah, I'm pretty sure this is not a continuous thing. I won't say that I've caught everything since d-day, but one thing I have learned in all of this is that unless you put the blinders on, they can't keep it secret for long.

JL, with all due respect, the way 2Long chooses to live his life is his own business, but when it comes to encouraging others along his path of inaction, of defending the status quo year after year, its very important for the receiver of that advice to understand his frame of mind.

If he makes no apologies for tolerating the true fact that his WW is still in touch with her OM 7 years after D-Day and that his idea of recovery is living in a state of "withdrawal" then others should know that. [his explanation is this is just a "long recovery" because this was a LTA - of course long means never when contact never ends because recovery never starts] I see no reason why he would take umbrage at this being pointed out unless he is embarrassed by the truth. If there is nothing wrong with living like that, as he says there is NOT, then there is no reason to have a melt down when it is pointed out.

I have no idea what SH told 2Long 2 years ago when he counseled with him a few times; that is just hearsay, but I know very well what Dr. Harley, the best marriage counselor in the US, the founder of Marriage Builders, and the trainer of Steve Harley, does say. I know what his idea of a good marriage is and I know he doesn't believe it can be found in enabling a wayward spouse for years on end. I don't believe for a second that this is Steve's idea of "recovery" either.

Nor do I think that is the solution rprynne seeks given his expression of sorrow and disappointment.


Yes, I do. And that is why I have a great marriage today. The proof is in the pudding. I learn more and more each year I am on this board. Have you ever asked 2Long this question? Has he learned anything new here?

Are you saying that she doesn't want to be married and just doesn't want to say it? Is she posting here?

rprynne, the question I would ask is if YOU want to remain married? What do you want to do with your life? Will she openly and honestly commit to repairing the marriage? Is she doing enough to keep you in the marriage?

Did you check out the article I linked earlier about When to Call it Quits?

When to Call it Quits