Hi JL! This is the truth. I'm quite satisfied with my life. My life doesn't depend on temporary, or forced things like met needs. My happiness comes from within. I can assure you and everyone else here that I can't be destroyed again like I felt I was on d-day, because of what I've learned. Here, a handful of other forums, and from some very close friends, including yourself, that I've made on them over the years. I wouldn't trade my past for anything, though I won't EVER put up with an affair again - and I'm far more savvy 2 the signs than I was before d-day. I am grateful for the hand I've been dealt. It's made me stronger and wiser.


Not only no one on the horizon (I'm assuming you're talking about my horizon, but you might be referring 2 my W's) but no threats I can't handle, either.


Thanks for trying, JL. Really. It won't make a difference. ***edit****
rprynne: A friend of mine suggested I come back here and see if you want my help. Do you? I'll respect your answer, and conduct myself accordingly.

-ol' 2long

This quote is about anything but "all due respect." It's all about assumptions and labels. It's also WRONG. And you're misinforming rprynne by using your misinterpretation of my recovery as an example of what you call a "bad marriage." You understand nothing about my frame of mind.


I "take umbrage" because you are WRONG, and you can't accept that "true fact." I take umbrage because you are slandering me 2 people here and have no qualms about doing so.

I haven't melted down, though.


This is correct, you don't. So why do you keep making your assumptions?


Does he ac2ally do counseling or coaching anymore?


I'm sure all that's true. Except for the part about enabling.

-ol' 2long

[[[[yawn]]]]

How is putting up with WS's contact with OM/OW NOT enabling?

You keep handing the druggie meth and wonder why she's beating the ****edit**** out of you.

Mel,

Just a few comments and then I am going to leave this. It is truly rp's choice as to what he wants to listen to, how he evaluates what he hears, and what fits with his few of his marriage.

Personally, I wish that his marriage could be saved and he be a happy man. If I could offer him advice that would lead to that I would. He has tried the plans, she gave up the affair and came home. She has made contact again. He has some decisions to make, but they are not binary decisions. What 2L was saying was that there are other choices that "might" suit his situation depending on what it is.

You said
Inaction??? You just wish you had the money and time he spent on counseling and trying to get his W to end her affair, which apparently she sort of has. But, here is the point and actually the point of MB. Harley's number 1 reason for starting this was not to save every marriage, it was the belief that if people did not act hastily, if they tried his plans, and gave it time, many (not all) marriages could be saved and yes improved. Ask him if I have misstated this. However, if my memory serves he states that in at least one article on this site.

2L did that, but he did more. He took action reevaluated his life, decided what he wanted, how he wanted it, and what he could live with and then DID IT! That Mel is taking action. Not the one you would recommend, perhaps not even the one I would recommend, but it was definitely action from trying to save his marriage with the plans, to counseling with the Harleys, and counseling with other counselors. What he arrived at was an accomodation that suits him. His advice to RP?? Figure what suits you and then do it. Is that anti_MB? No it is not, actually it is very much inline with the reason Harley started this site and his own counseling.

I think he has stated this fact clearly. It suits him to continue to see small improvements, while withdrawn for the most part. It suits him to keep his finacial situation as it is. It suits him to do very interesting work, have interesting friends, live in his house, do things with his family and friends, and have interesting hobbies.

I don't think he came here asking for any sympathy. He simply suggested to RP that RP figure out what suits him, knowing that RP is aware of Plan A, plan B, and certainly plan D. He is saying D is not necessarily where he has to go if it does not suit him, but he will have to take action and do the work to make anything else acceptable to him. RP's call.

So can we get back to talking to RP now? I would like that very much.

RP, I apologize. You are being give a wide range of ideas, options, and approaches. You are going to have to figure out what suits you.

God Bless,

JL

JL, I am not going to belabor this because this thread is about rprynne, not 2Long, but be assured I have no issue with the way he chooses to live. I have said all along that it is his life to live. But it is not a tenant of Marriage Builders to endure a spouse who is still in contact with her OM 7 years past D-Day. For all the "action" he took, he is still in the same place; spinning his wheels. That IS maintaining the status quo. So when he tells someone not to "act hastily" and puts down others here for encouraging rprynne to take action, this is going to be pointed out. I challenged his view point and pointed out that his marriage has not even begun recovery; he doesn't like it. Tough.

Anyway, that is all I have to say on it. My apologies to RP for the threadjack. Hopefully we can get back to the issue at hand.

Having seen my own husband try to do this when he was wayward, I can totally identify with this.

I'm so sorry R.

IMO that is a lazy, lazy attitude. It's "I'll make like I'm doing the work, but I'm actually half azzing it till you give up." And it $ucks rocks, imo.

From what I've learned, YOU cannot change her mind or her actions. She will have to want to. That she hasn't womaned up yet is very scary.

(((((((R)))))))

No, she is not posting now. Yes, that is close to what I'm saying. Maybe a bit more like divorce is just a such a viable option to her.

It's like her quiting smoking. She has quit several times, but I always get the sense that resuming smoking is her "backup plan." So as soon as the not smoking starts to get difficult, she starts up again. She would view that is she tried to quit smoking. I view it as not trying. (meaning, how can one claim they tried, when the first time they really wanted a smoke they smoked). It's like her goal is to proove she tried to quit, but not neccessarily to actually quit.


That's a big list of questions. Yes, I want to remain married, but not in a marriage like this. With my life, I'd like to work, have a family and one day retire. I don't know if she will committ to repairing. Much like I'm saying above, she will committ to prooving she has tried what is required to repair the M. Yes, she does enough to keep me in the M, when she is in this mode, but ultimately she quits doing it and then it's not enough.

I know that doesn't make a lot of sense. But it's like once I asked you what made you change your approach to M and you answered it was sort of a leap of faith.


Yes, I did.


Of course. I want everybody's input. I can handle contradictory opinions, and I did not take your post as advocating any specific course of action other than to do what I think is best for me.

I actually prefer the debate. As it helps me clarify my thoughts.

2long, I understand your POV. My question to you is how long are you willing to wait for her to never have contact with OM. For me, I am clearly a ticking time bomb. As MrW rightfully pointed out, resentment is building. (At times, I'm not even sure if that can be undone). It's not that the other parts of my life are unsatisfactory, but I do clearly believe that I have not lived a full life.


No need to apologize.

JL, Mel, 2Long, MrW, SC, Pep and others. Look, clearly I'm confused right now. What helps unconfuse me is your opinions. You are the only people I have to talk to about this stuff. I don't know if there's anymore to be said or not. I'll have to process things and decide what I want to do. I know that can be frustrating to people who feel like it's obvious what I should do and clearly just want what's best for me.

***edit***

Kimmy:

I think all WSs do what rp described. What I'm trying 2 get at is that she may get 2 a point where she realizes that this goal of hers won't give her the absolution that she currently imagines it will. But it is a realization that only she can make.

Hopefully, that won't take so long that rp has lost interested in recovery long before, but it might.

-ol' 2long

>But it is a realization that only she can make.


Exactly.

Only RP can decide how much longer he can wait for that to happen and if that waiting coincides with HIS life's goals.

IMO you sound more afraid and wishful than confused.

Hugs and prayers to you ryprynne...none of this is easy.

rprynne:


And I enjoy a good debate, but that wasn't going on here.


It's concepts like this that I'm trying 2 get at, here. How long am I willing? A bit longer, probably. But the bomb is definitely ticking. Last contact I'm aware of was a birthday wish email (hb in subject line, no content in email) a 2ple months ago. Bigger, more significant contact was in March. She didn't know I knew what was said then, but RM had tried 2 entice her in2 resuming the A, and she tore him a new one.

The significance of these steps is she never did anything like this before, and she did it all without my knowledge, so far as she knew. I could have TOLD her that this is what I needed (I've done so many times in the past 7 years), but even if she complied, I'd forever wonder whether she would give in 2 temptation because it wasn't her decision 2 begin with 2 end it. And, of course it's easy as pie for someone who wants 2, 2 go underground even deeper (requiring the BS 2 hone their ability 2 sense when things aren't right).



Resentment for me has come and gone, like the rollercoaster ups and downs after d-day. But it's not gone, and I know why you're concerned. It continues 2 be an exercise where I consider what I've done (for example, am I satisfied I've done all I can do?), and how our family life is going (e.g., is what I know of what she's doing enough, and is there progress?). But I think resentment can be undone, if you do all you can. It may or may not require plan D, though.


Here's where I am reminded of something I said 2 my W shortly after d-day: "If I'd known about the A within a year or 2 of it first starting, I could have started over with a new family by now" 2 which she responded "I know" (with deep furrows of concern on her forehead).

I was only 38 at the time, but we already had 2 kids. If we had no kids, I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't be married 2 her now.

I honestly both envy, and don't envy your current position. Because I don't see this as so simple, because you'd tried 2 start a family and she lost the child, and THAT experience and her inappropriate reaction 2 it has 2 be dealt with by someone (her certainly, but you 2).

And I do recall many times where I've contemplated life alone, like WAT and I talked about when I met him and his new SO for dinner a 2ple years ago, that I've done so with a sort of goosebumpy eagerness, rather than trepidation.

-ol' 2long

I don't pretend to know the answers that will make the path you need to take obvious and clear for you. The fork in the road where you stand has no easy choice.

HOW you chose is really the more important thing, I think. More important than which path.

I hope that if I keep asking questions, you'll come up with the choice/path for yourself.

Having said that, this popped out at me:


... like she is "renting" becoming a non-smoker. She'd check into a "non-smoking" hotel room, but won't commit to a non-smoking home.

KWIM?

Yeah, coaching the Super Bowl from the comfort of our couch is fun.

I'm not frustrated with you. I have empathy for you.

Yesterday, my H said something to the effect that he felt he was being "assaulted" when a situation occurred between us that involved our adult son. Honestly, this is the BIGGEST area of conflict in our marriage at this time. I was taken aback with his choice of word, "assault". Later, after we had resolved the situation, I told him that he might have felt "assaulted" but when in comparison to a wife actually assaulting the marriage, your situation (I gave a brief explanation), I felt H's choice of words was too strong.

It's often a matter of perspective.

Agree with Kimmy. Only you can decide RP. It's an incredibly hard thing to do.

I know you have thought of this but I'll throw it into the mix here. You aren't getting any younger RP! I'm the same age as you so I feel safe saying that. The proverbial 'biological clock' is ticking. If you want to have a family I really think that you need to make some life decisions reasonably soon. You would be hard pressed to go another 5 years before deciding it worn't work with WW. At 40, you are realistically going to date women that are in their mid 30's and older (not a guideline set in stone of course, but you know what I mean). Many of them will be getting to the end of their safe child-bearing years soon. Of course, there is always adoption, etc. But, if you want to have biological children it's definitely something to throw into your timeline for making a decision with regards to WW.

Like I said, I'm sure this is already a variable that is part of the life equation you are trying to solve. Sometimes I just hate math!!!

Best of luck to you in your very difficult situation.

Mindshare

I want to point out something I think hasn't really been addressed.

What you describe here is a very very deep personality trait. That of 'going through the motions and if it works, great, if it doesn't, look for something else that's not as hard and see if I can get that to work.'

Instead of what others would do: 'decide what I'm going to accomplish and do whatever it takes to accomplish it.'

It is a sign of weakness in many people, who somehow develop the characteristic of least resistance.

So, I would ask, what exactly is your attraction to her? Is it strong enough that you can handle supporting such a person for the rest of your life? Because that's what it will be. She'll move from one 'too hard' to another.

If you love her enough to overlook it, and make up the difference, fine. If you don't, this would be a good time to cut your losses.

No, it does make perfect sense and I would agree with your assessment. This is exactly what I thought when I posted to her a couple a months ago. Her committment was not to the marriage, but to her independent lifestyle. Like you said, she does enough to get by and when that doesn't produce immediate results, she gives up. She brings the body for a short while and when the mind doesn't follow right away she gives up. Of course the solution is keep trying long enough for change to occur.

This is why I think you should give Dr. Harley a try. He will root out this tactic rather quickly, I predict. They will speak to her directly. And if he believes there is no hope, he will tell you so you aren't wasting your time anymore. If you enroll in that program, they assign you a coach, either Sandy or Kim and then you have access to Dr Harley every day on the weekend forum so it is consistent coverage with WEEKLY GOALS and weekly followup. This can't fall through the cracks anymore.

And yes, Dr Harley does still counsel in addition to overseeing Steve and Jennifer's cases. He is active every day on the weekend board and with MB clients. [right now he has his hands full with otter. Better him than us! ]

I feel like if we had kids, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be married right now. Of course, I'm sure it changes when you actually have kids.

I do know what you mean.


I know. And just so you know, while I may not always post an answer, I do always ask myself the question.


Yes, this is very spot on.


I don't know if it's about love or overlooking. I guess it's about the nature and magnitude of how this issue manifests itself. If this is a downward trend, then no, I won't be willing to make up the difference.

I'll try to explain it like this. Soon after we married I realized my WW would lie to me. It was about little stuff. "Honey did you mail that payment?" She said yes, when she hadn't then mail it the next day. Now, I know this is not good and a M shouldn't be that way, but if that was her coping mechanism and as long as the payment did get mailed, no big deal. But then, it got to where the payment wasn't getting mailed at all. And then it wasn't lies about little stuff, but big stuff, i.e. living with someone else. So when you ask, am I willing to make up the difference. Yeah, I can be happy even if my wife lies to me occassionally about little stuff. But I can't if lying becomes the solution to everything.


Yes. Correct. But I would change it a bit in that it's not that she is committed to either one (the independent lifestyle or the marriage). She's committed to the "squeaky wheel", so to speak. That helps.


I think you are right. You've been to a weekend? I may ask you some questions about it.

Anyway, thanks everyone for your help. I'm off for a weeklong vacation.

Please do. We went to the weekend in Florida back in 2007. What surprised me is how much value we got out of it even after being here for years. Dr Harley just has an amazing, uncanny ability to cut through the crap and get to the crux of the problem. Feel free to ask me anything about it. Some of the very best marriages here are that way as a result of the weekend.


Have a great weekend, friend!

rprynne hope you had a wonderful vacation and holiday.

How are things?