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Oh, I'm happy for you Hold. And for your daughter.

There is little that feels so good as seeing your child grow up, affirmed, validated, and prized--and to know that you provided that for her.

Congrats, and good luck in the days/weeks ahead on the home front with W.


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Mazel tov, hold! I'm very happy for you and your family. Congratulations to your daughter.


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Memo from the silver linings department:

1. Mrs. Hold came down with flu yesterday. Better yesterday than getting the flu the day before D12's big weekend.

2. Since Mrs. Hold and I are so withdrawn, we slept far apart over the weekend despite the emotionally bonding event. If we were not so withdrawn, we probably would have hugged and kissed. Then I would have caught the flu from her.


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lol - Oh Hold, you are something else. I hope she feels better.


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Hold, you are such an optimist, always looking on the bright side! smile


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Today Mrs. Hold went to the clinic and was told she has pneumonia. Not surprising given how awful she sounds (which is why I strongly suggested she go to the clinic today). They gave her a prescription. She asked me to pick it up on the way home. I refused. She got very upset, until I explained I wasn't refusing to help her, I was not enthusiastic about her waiting the many hours until I will get home to start taking her medicine. So she is going to drop the prescription off on her way home (she was adamant about not waiting in the pharmacy for the prescription to be filled - my first suggestion), and then pick it up when she picks up D12 from school in an hour. Wow, this may be our first POJA ever!

I have been doing occasional drive by honesty the past few weeks. Every so often I mention something I like sexually. Today, she said the clinic told her to take it easy for a few weeks (no gym). I said then I guess I'll be in the living room for a while longer (I have been there since Monday). We joked about how awful it will be for her to not be bothered by my snoring, bad breath, hairiness, etc. for several weeks. At one point she said "eventually you will have to move back in to our bedroom". I said "you are never getting me back into the bedroom". She asked "are you joking or serious". I said "a little of both". She asked again "are you serious?" I said "yes, partly".

That would be a major change in our relationship. If I stayed in the living room after she recovers from her illness. That would make our emotional estrangement crystal clear to the kids. And set an example I am not happy setting. We shall see what happens when she recovers.


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Shabbat Shalom, Hold!

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Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Wow, this may be our first POJA ever!


hurray

Wow, the world must be ending and h.e.double.toothpicks must be freezing over! Maybe the Aztecs and Nostradamus are right about 2012! (j/k)

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I have been doing occasional drive by honesty the past few weeks.


Again, YAY!!!

Quote:
Every so often I mention something I like sexually. Today, she said the clinic told her to take it easy for a few weeks (no gym). I said then I guess I'll be in the living room for a while. We joked about how awful it will be for her to not be bothered by my snoring, bad breath, hairiness, etc. for several weeks. At one point she said "eventually you will have to move back in to our bedroom". I said "you are never getting me back into the bedroom". She asked "are you joking or serious". I said "a little of both". She asked again "are you serious?" I said "yes, partly".

That would be a major change in our relationship. If I stayed in the living room after she recovers from her illness. That would make our emotional estrangement crystal clear to the kids. And set an example I am not happy setting. We shall see what happens when she recovers.


Ah, but wouldn't it make it more obvious to her how serious you are?

Is there a way you can avoid sleeping in the same bed as her without the kids knowing? (Dishonest to the kids, yes, but still...)


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Personally, I think it would be healthier for the kids to realize you ARE setting boundaries for a healthy marriage and abiding by those boundaries, than continuing to lie to them. If you think they don't know you have problems, you're being naive. And by not talking to them about your problems, you're teaching them it is normal.

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No way to know what is best for the kids. It is one thing to say "your mother and I are having difficulty but we are committed to working things out." I could have said that honestly 10 years ago or even 5 years ago. It is different to say "I no longer love your mother the way I used to, and I am not sure how much longer we will stay together". That may shatter their world even if you also say "I will always love YOU and that will never change". Sometimes hard for them to believe your love for them will endure when you say your love for their mother has died.

As I have said before, I don't want to get divorced while the kids live home. I don't want to pay child support while living somewhere else. I don't want Mrs. Hold living with some other guy while DD is living with her. I care more about all those things than about telling my kids the truth about their parents' marriage.

Healthy boundaries? Healthy marriage? Not in our house. You need healthy people to have a healthy marriage. Neither I nor Mrs. Hold is healthy. No way for us to set an example of healthy living. We are choosing from alternate dysfunctions.


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....

Last edited by diamondsj; 11/20/09 03:58 PM.
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Yesterday Mrs. Hold asked me when I was moving back into the bedroom. I said not until her cough clears up, which the doctor said might be a couple of weeks. Then she is flying to Florida to visit her parents, because her father is scheduled for surgery. So we may sleep apart for what will have been almost a month by the time she gets back home.

She asked for reassurance that I will move back when she recovers. I said something like "I guess we can work something out." She said "be careful before you say something hurtful". Later she asked why I don't want to move back. I said I thought she would appreciate not having to deal with my presence, stinky breath, stinky BO, hairiness, horniness, interrupting her TV shows, etc. She repeated "why don't you want to move back?" I said "it is stressful for me to be in bed with you. I feel uncomfortable when you complain about me." She said something like "I am sorry you focus totally on the negatives. You only feel that way because you have ANTS (automatic negative thoughts) in your head."

I am pleased that we got this out into the open. It is easier to be honest (to a point) now that I am much less invested in the outcome (her reaction). She is often disappointed with the content of my statements. But I do not allow my expectations of her displeasure to control my speech. She may not like what I have to say. That is for her to deal with. Hopefully she won't decide to leave me over it.


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I believe it's healthy for you to embrace that you can be cruel and mean with intent. It's knowing you have that in you and not acting from it which helps you experience yourself as a whole person, Hold.

And I've seen you be cruel before in your marriage and to yourself. I'm not sure I've seen you justify it as you have above, though, which concerns me. I imagined your response to her thoughtful request would have been higher honesty...

"I'm rejecting you from fear you'll continue to reject me."

Instead, I heard you tell her "I'm going to DJ your response and tell myself I'm not so invested in your reaction."

She's correct that your expectation of her displeasure (which she clearly stated was being WITHOUT you in the bedroom) is one of your ANTS...and that you didn't say, "I love my ANTS", again, leaves me wondering.

How will you know when you've chosen to play games instead of stay true to your code, if you justify? Isn't that what you hated most about her LBs? Her justifying the spending, the rejection of affection, the distancing and discounting she justified doing for so many years?

You can get anything you want out in the open when you act O&H. You know that. You're pleased, I believe, because you zinged and rejected her...and were hurtful...you did her thinking for her. You hate it when she does that to you.

You don't allow your expectations of her displeasure to control your actions? Or just your speech? What does her continued, non-infectious cough have to do with your assumption she doesn't appreciate you beside her in the marital bed?

Now that the party is over...has she been spending over her allowance? Has she been LBing you in other ways?

Would you be more honest in saying you won't move back into the bedroom until she agrees to a SF and FS contract?

She asked for what she wanted...what concerned her...and you said no to her. Later, she asked for intimacy, to know your "why" behind the rejection. Sounds like she wasn't ignoring you, didn't assume you'd be moving back into the bedroom, and she chose to act from love, even though she feared. And feared some more.

She wishes you wouldn't say things she takes as hurtful. And later, she came back and asked, anyway.

You see her as making no efforts, using you, being an unhealthy, unchanging spouse...projection, maybe?

Seems to me, she's in a year of massive changes.

I don't see your honesty. You fear your presence interrupts what she wants...nice way to kick yourself in the groin, Hold and blame her.

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LA:

Let me start by saying that I am confident my wife loves me. She wishes we could be happily married. She wants to grow old together. She feels sad at the thought that our marriage is and has been unsatisfying for me.

The problem is, for me, that is not enough. If she cannot interact with me sexually in a way that is subjectively satisfying to me, then I am unhappy with our marriage no matter what else she does.

I understand that is my issue. My problem. My burden to work through. But if I have no intention of changing, then I have to deal with the reality that my marriage will continue to be unsatisfying for as long as it lasts.

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
I believe it's healthy for you to embrace that you can be cruel and mean with intent. It's knowing you have that in you and not acting from it which helps you experience yourself as a whole person, Hold.


I don't experience being a whole person, because I don't refrain from acting on it. When I do, I'll post about it here.

Quote:
I'm not sure I've seen you justify it as you have above, though, which concerns me. I imagined your response to her thoughtful request would have been higher honesty...


No, not more honesty. That might go over the "edge". Hence my statement that I am bring more honest "to a point".

Quote:
She's correct that your expectation of her displeasure (which she clearly stated was being WITHOUT you in the bedroom) is one of your ANTS...and that you didn't say, "I love my ANTS", again, leaves me wondering.


Are you saying that I should embrace my ANTS the way I embrace my resentment? I do love my resentment. But the ANTS? I hate the ANTS. They are just about my least favorite part of myself. I am resigned to never doing anything about my ANTS. That doesn't meant I love them. Seems to me if I loved the ANTS I wouldn't feel so much resentment. If I loved myself, I wouldn't mind if Mrs. Hold rejected me. It is only because I have so much self-loathing - that Mrs. Hold was supposed to cure by accepting me unconditionally (and yes, I see the irony as regards what Mrs. Hold expected from me) - that her rejection bothers me so much.

Quote:
How will you know when you've chosen to play games instead of stay true to your code, if you justify? Isn't that what you hated most about her LBs? Her justifying the spending, the rejection of affection, the distancing and discounting she justified doing for so many years?


But dear LA, I am not staying true to my code. That is why I hate myself so much. I have never been true to my code. Early on I refrained from complaining. Hid my needs. Built up resentment. At myself as much (or more) than at Mrs. Hold. Then I started complaining and being honest. But she continued to reject me. And added other misbehaviors to the mix. Honesty and staying true to my code because too painful / costly (because it would require me to leave her). As long as I prioritize staying over all else, I can NOT be true to my code.

Or to put it differently, my code does not prioritize honesty as much as it prioritizes staying married to Mrs. Hold while the kids live with us. So if I have to jettison honesty to increase the odds (as I perceive them) that Mrs. Hold will choose to remain married to me, so be it. I don't like it. I don't like myself for doing it. But I will continue to do it nonetheless. Hence my discontent. I see my higher goal (stay married for 5.5 years) at odds with lesser goals (honesty, intimacy).

Quote:
You don't allow your expectations of her displeasure to control your actions? Or just your speech? What does her continued, non-infectious cough have to do with your assumption she doesn't appreciate you beside her in the marital bed?


I know she wants me there. I just wanted to hear her say it. She knows what I wanted. Which is why she did NOT say it.

The difference is WHY she wants me in her bed. Which she also refused to say. I suspect she wants me there because that is an outward sign I am still under her thumb. She says she wants to interact, but she doesn't. She doesn't want be to speak while we are in bed (she constantly tells me to be quiet if I comment on the show she is watching, even if my comment is positive or expresses interest in her viewpoint). She certainly doesn't want to me touch her while we are in bed. She doesn't want me too near her. She just wants me safely lying there about 1.5 feet away. Her pet.

Quote:
Would you be more honest in saying you won't move back into the bedroom until she agrees to a SF and FS contract?


But I will move back in without any agreement on her part. We all know that. I do not have the guts to trigger a confrontation. That is why, as you said, this is all game playing. I will not live up to my code. Living up to my code would require me to stay away until she agreed to a contract and performed it. Which she will not do. Which is why my living to my code requires me to leave. Which I will not do. So this is all a game.

Quote:
You see her as making no efforts, using you, being an unhealthy, unchanging spouse...projection, maybe?


Yes, of course it is projection. I have given up trying. Have given up hope for improvement. Am making no efforts. Have given up on either of us changing. I am determined to remain unhealthy.

Quote:
I don't see your honesty. You fear your presence interrupts what she wants...nice way to kick yourself in the groin, Hold and blame her.


I don't really believe she dislikes my being in bed with her. My presence does not interfere with what she wants. My presence IS what she wants. On the other hand, I massively DJ her as to WHY she wants me there. That does not mean I am wrong. Just means I should ask her to confirm it.

Of course, she would never confirm it. That would require honesty. Which neither of us is willing to contribute to our marriage.


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Then what are you still doing posting here on MB about your "going nowhere marriage"? You aren't marriage building. You are stalling, lying, DJing, and basically separating yourself from your wife. Whether she chooses to MB or not does NOT affect how you make changes in yourself. You are choosing to not change -- and it has nothing to do with remaining with your children. Call a spade a spade.

This continued "update" you give is given for what purpose hold? Any reason at all?

As you've stated, you've no intention of making the journey to a healthy life/marriage. So why continue to post about the exchanges between you and Mrs. Hold? It serves no purpose other than to continue to get people to engage you and then you can tell them how you think this about Mrs. Hold and how you think that about Mrs. Hold. But when called to task, you project -- you deflect. No matter the great insight someone gives you about what YOU are doing in your exchanges with your wife, you dismiss them as "not gonna happen cuz she did...and I won't...". You do this with your wife and you do this with your children.

The two are not mutually exclusive even while you want to believe it. Your children see and hear more than you know. They also are smart and intuitive. Give them credit for knowing more than what little you have told them. Of the parties involved, I feel most for your children because of the lies being "told" to them. What about that are you going to change? They didn't choose to be put in this position, but they sure deserve a parent willing to help them understand it.


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I am here because this is part of how I medicate my angst from continually making stupid choices.

This is going to impact my kids no matter what. No way to insulate them. I am aiming for "by the time you guys divorced, we wished you had done it sooner". From what I have read of the studies of divorce and children, that tends to produce marginally better outcomes than the kids who wished their parents had stayed together. Still, it is a crap shoot no matter what you do. No way to predict how divorce will impact any particular child.

Look, in a tiny corner of me I still hold out hope that Mrs. Hold and I will reconnect. I am not willing to make any effort in that direction today. But maybe tomorrow I will be. Every year my sex drive declines. Maybe at some point it will fall so low that I stop wanting sex. Maybe then I will be able to let go of the resentment. Who knows.

If I were forced to make a move today, it would be to Plan D. Hence I refuse to move off the fence. Maybe some day I will choose to Plan A again. Maybe some day when the kids are closer to leaving I will be willing to have an honest talk with Mrs. Hold about what it would take for me to re-engage. For now, I do not feel safe entering into negotiations because I am unwilling to walk away. I need to be wiling to leave. Otherwise my negotiating position is fatally compromised.

Hopefully, she will put up with my withdrawal until then. If not, I will probably regret not doing more at this time. Then again, I have so many regrets I may not even notice another.


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Hold...have you ever considered seeing a lawyer about your chances of primary custody or just to get your ducks in a row and see what would be in store for you if you did divorce her?

Have you ever considered that perhaps your wife has more sense than to get mixed up with someone who would hurt your children? How about you? Any guarantees that in the event of a divorce you would not get mixed up with someone worse than your wife? Or someone who is a detriment to your children in some way?

Life holds no guarantees.

How would you feel if everyone here stopped posting to you? Would you get really really bored and finally do something? Just wondering?


Sooly

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"The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you."

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Hold...I'm just wondering because if what we say to you makes no difference in your situation, maybe we are wasting YOUR time.

Maybe we're enabling your stagnation.

Last edited by Soolee; 11/23/09 06:34 PM.

Sooly

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Quote:
The difference is WHY she wants me in her bed. Which she also refused to say. I suspect she wants me there because that is an outward sign I am still under her thumb. She says she wants to interact, but she doesn't. She doesn't want be to speak while we are in bed (she constantly tells me to be quiet if I comment on the show she is watching, even if my comment is positive or expresses interest in her viewpoint). She certainly doesn't want to me touch her while we are in bed. She doesn't want me too near her. She just wants me safely lying there about 1.5 feet away. Her pet.
I dare you to cut and paste this in an email to her.

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Originally Posted By: Soolee
Hold...have you ever considered seeing a lawyer about your chances of primary custody or just to get your ducks in a row and see what would be in store for you if you did divorce her?


Have talked to lawyers. My chances of getting primary physical custody are zero if Mrs. Hold also wants it. Financially, I have a pretty good idea where we end up given our relatively minimal assets. Neither of us can live as we desire on a portion of what I make. Either we move outside the school district or big downward mobility or both. Most likely both.

Quote:
Have you ever considered that perhaps your wife has more sense than to get mixed up with someone who would hurt your children? How about you? Any guarantees that in the event of a divorce you would not get mixed up with someone worse than your wife? Or someone who is a detriment to your children in some way?


I know it could be worse. I know in my present condition I would only be attractive to predators. That is why I stay married. To keep the predators away from my kids.

I am not saying my wife would AIM for someone who would harm our kids. She would not. It is precisely because I fear that other imperatives would push her to strongly desire a relationship with someone who can offer FS that I fear she might be an unsuspecting victim. I am confident Mrs. Hold would dump any guy who made moves on our daughter (if she didn't rend him limb from limb). Not so sure she would detect it before it happened.

As I say, in our current states we are both vulnerable and thus most attractive to predators. Hence prudence dictates we stick together.

Quote:
How would you feel if everyone here stopped posting to you? Would you get really really bored and finally do something? Just wondering?


I would miss it. But not be motivated to take action. I took a break here for a few months. Made no difference in my activity or motivation level. I would just find another way to distract myself. At least this place keeps throwing good advice in my face. Perhaps some day I will be receptive to it.


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