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Hold, what do you think about the idea that your issues now could be related to getting desensitized by too much stimulation in the recent past? Like SW's H, pushing her for more and more "out there" stuff because of his choice of solo activity made the stuff that they were doing not enough anymore?


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and or maybe you need a higher dose of viagra. Get some things a working for you and the others may fall into place a little easier.

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Soolee, I don't mean to chase you away with my eeyore attitude. Then again I don't intend many of the negative consequences my behavior generates.

The reason I am not motivated to get help for my depression is that I have done so many times over the decades and it has made little or no difference. At this point depression has overtaken my motivation to seek help. I am not a try try again fellow. I follow the W C Fields version "if at first you don't succeed, try again. Then quit. No use being a darned fool about it." Was on a poster in my parents' basement for many years.

I do need to get back to the gym. Been intending to for several weeks. Maybe next week. I think the lack of exercise this year may be contributing to my ED problems.

Thanks for all the encouragement. I don't deserve so much support from so many people here.


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Hold, my husband is in a similar position. He says he's "done" with the ADs, "done" with the counselors, both individual and marriage. Yet he's still clearly miserable with life. I wish I had a quick-and-easy solution to offer!

Steve Harley is working with me to get H on the phone with him. Not sure what will be accomplished once that goal is attained, but I figure, baby steps. Anyway, Steve's opinion of H's situation--not sure if any of this applies to you--is that he's like a rudderless boat in the water. He lacks the right tools to escape his situation. Perhaps some of that applies to you as well?

In any case, getting back to an exercise program can't hurt anything and will most likely help on some level. That sounds like a great idea.


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Hi dear hold.

So I've been thinking about you... Do you think it's possible that you don't feel anything not because you are so sad and miserable that you've become numb, but because you are actually furious?

I've heard it said that depression is anger turned inward. What if you are so angry that it takes every ounce of energy to keep that anger surpressed?

You really do need to work out. Forget focusing on anything else extra, but get back to working out. Maybe you can take a boxing/kickboxing class--or something that includes releasing explosive bouts of energy... maybe then it would help release some of what you cannot allow yourself to feel right now.

You need a release valve. Get out there and excercise. Punch some bags. Kick some bags. Pound it out.

ANd don't wait until next week. Do it a couple of times before this week is out.

Can you at do that at least?

(((Hold)))


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I agree with Telly. If you have not learned to show, feel, or properly express anger it can come out on your inner self and mask as depression or sadness.

HOLD If I were you, married to that woman and what she did and how she neglects you yet demands "everything", I would be sooooooooo terribly angry day and night. Could be part of the sex issues also, who could have sex with a person they were terribly angry at. I have never heard you get angry at your user wife. After all she did, you SHOULD be terribly angry and you SHOULD be venting it out somewhere.

And Telly, the same is true for you. After all your husband did to do, the hyprocacy of his teaching "marriage classes" and the terrible neglect to your needs your emotions, your personhood, your very spirit, and total 100% neglect of your sexual self, I would be TERRIBLY AND DAILY ENRAGED! Constantly angry. And justifiably so!!!!

But instead of feeling that anger, due to what he is doing to you, and the terrible neglect, you have to hide that and gulp down handfuls of antidepressants. Telly how can you stand to walk with your husband down to the store? How can you stand to be in the same house with such a man????? I am so angry for what he did to you. He is ruining your life every single day. You could have married a normal loving, easy going man and had a great life. This man you married is cruel and self centered.

IF BUT I COULD BE ANGRY FOR YOU BOTH SO YOU DID NOT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT LEARNING ALL ABOUT ANGER, HOW TO FEEL YOUR ANGER, HOW TO EXPRESS IT, THAT IT IS A VALID EMOTION LIKE ALL THE OTHERS, ETC, ETC.

Please learn about anger so you do not accidently take that anger out on your precious selves. Learn how to FEEL anger. Learn how to EXPRESS anger. Learn why you are angry. Learn why you have a right to be angry. Please learn that your inner anger is OK.

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I feel plenty of anger. The constant mantra inside my head when I am not distracted is "FYB, FYB, FYB". But as you say, I do not show it externally as anger. Externally I am sometimes pleasant. Often depressed. Rarely angry.

During marriage counselling, I sometimes expressed my anger. The rest of that session, and frequently the bulk of the next session, was then devoted to my expressions of anger. Not the lack of sex. Not the overspending. My anger. My anger was seen as justification for Mrs. Hold not having sex with me. This occurred with several different MCs over several years. So I learned not to express my anger.

No wonder I am so depressed! Now, what do I do about it? I think Telly's idea of kick boxing is a good start. I think Mrs. Hold has a Tae Bo tape stashed somewhere.


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Hold -

See if there's a Krav Maga studio anywhere in your area. There was nothing like it for venting my aggression before my knee wouldn't let me do it anymore.

I also have battled depression for a long time, and can relate to many of your statements. I add my voice to the chorus encouraging you to seek help. The new AD's work so much better than what I was on 10 years ago, combined with IC, it's made a world of difference for me and my outlook.

Best of luck to you!
TAC


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HOld, let me know how the tae bo thing goes--and then you should check out a real kickboxing class at your gum.

Well, I don't actually take anti-depressants, and I am learning to deal with my anger.

On Sunday, my H and I had an iI did have an interaction that left me very angry. I walked away from the situation, and left him with the girls while I tried to calm down. I journalled, and tried to give voice to the feelings I had inside.

I was getting close, talking about how angry I was, but I couldn't get the anger to ebb. Finally, I tapped into what I really wanted to say in that moment... It was "Ignore this, A-h--e" with a big punch at the end of it.

As I imagined that exchange, the anger actually faded.

I think we have to acknowledge our anger in the deepest, and most REAL place possible. We can't let of our anger unless we give it a voice, a place, and let it breathe. Then it can quiet again.

Anyway, I was able to completely calm down, the anger ebbed, I went back and we worked through the issue.

There are other ways to get it out--that's why I think the kickboxing is a good option.


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Telly, I really do agree with you on this. I think that part of Hold's problem is that in the process of keeping his anger under wraps, maybe he never found a healthy way to get rid of it and maybe even thought it wasn't necessary. So he buried it, and it developed into depression.

I think it's important to note that it simply is not enough to hold it in, just because it seems like the easiest and most noble thing to do to avoid outside problems with others. We avoid or eat certain foods to keep our bodies from suffering. Why, then, don't we treat our emotional health with equal care?


Sooly

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"The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you."

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Originally Posted By: Telly
She could love you fiercely, and never have any more interest in sex than she does now. SHe could love you more than she has ever loved anyone in her life, and it simply never stimulate her sexually. Ever. And that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with you.

When we first got married, my husband was excited about sex. For about 3 months. Then I saw the decline--and I soon realized how he was able to stay celibate for so long. He simply doesn't feel desire with anything near the frequency that I do. I mean it can be months and months and months (we are, after all, averaging 1 time of intercourse every 2 1/2 years) before he is aroused. And he has no interest in arousing me in any way other than sex, and only when he is interested which, as I said is seldom.

I have spent years thinking that it was me. That I had done something to kill his interest in this area. Or there was some way he was wounded that inhibits him.

I didn't. There isn't.

He just isn't interested.

How do we live with that? How do we make our lives full and complete and wonderful when we are living with someone who chooses not to engage us sexually? I have a vivid and active imagination. I have so many ideas for things that would be fun and interesting... But even without doing anything extra, I am just happy to touch and be touched, and have it culminate in SF!


Telly, Hold said this didn't apply to his situation, but I'm SO glad you posted it, because I think it applies to mine. Thank you.


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Originally Posted By: Bubbles4U
I would like to weigh in here. I had the low libido husband. He insisted it was "just the way he was" and had nothing to do with me.

1. It took me three years to believe him
2. Another few years to work the problem out
3. We had to both LOVE each other enough to fight thru it.

I feel that if a person marries you and claims to love you, they will and should do everything, whatever is needed....to try and make you happy.


Wow, Bubbles, thank you. As I just commented on Telly's post, I really benefitted from what you wrote, even though it was directed to Hold.


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Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
These days, I wish there was some way to reach me.

It is the ultimate irony. She was more loving this past weekend than at any time I can remember. But I am now unmoved by her gestures. Too little too late. I have become so messed up inside my head that even though I can intellectually see that her actions are intended to be loving, and that I would have felt loved if she had done then earlier, I don't feel loved now.

Before the reunion, she asked why I was going. I think she feared that I was hoping to reconnect with an old flame. I told her (truthfully) that there were no old flames to rekindle. I never dated anyone from my high school class. I only dated 2 or 3 girls, all very briefly. A couple who went to different schools. And then a sophomore when I was a senior. So there were no "rivals" at the reunion. She was surprised. I guess she never realized how alone I was during high school. When I said I did not date during high school, she didn't realize I meant I LITERALLY never dated any of my classmates.

She seemed to be very compassionate when I admitted that it felt good, in a wierd way, to see that I really did not have any close friends in high school. That it meant I wasn't totally psychotic. That the isolation and alienation I felt at the time were at least partly real.

She expressed worry that our son is the same way. Many acquaintances but no close friends. She is worried that he will end up like me. I told her not to worry. He often gets invited to parties, and goes. He has gone to more parties in the first 3 months of freshman year than I did all 4 years of high school combined. Very different. She felt reassured about S15. And worse for me.

Obviously her reaching out to stroke me and have sex with me yesterday were meant to be healing. Not totally her fault that I have twisted myself to the point that even sex with her is now a negative experience. That I cannot perform even with pharmacological assistance.

The scariest part is that I don't even feel suicidal. There was a time when ED would have made me anxious and despondent. Now I am just numb. I failed. So what. What else is new? BTDT. I don't need to kill myself to make the pain stop. I already don't feel anything.

Except tremendous rage at myself for throwing my life away. But I figure that dedicating myself to continued failure is appropriate punishment for that.


Hello Hold,

It's been a while since I visited the board, and I see this thread is still quite active.

So, wow, she offered sex -- how often is that?
And you pretty much are not into it with her anymore, I can understand that since you've pretty much convinced yourself you're stuck in a sexless marriage and actually accepting that life for the kids.

As for me, I've been in Hormone Replacement Therapy since my T-levels are quite low. It's helping a bit as far me not being in that depressive mood / mode of thinking.

I just had my doze up'ped yesterday because my last blood test was still low. I've been doing diligent strength building in the gym, but need to do more cardio to lose weight. I actually stopped going to the gym for the past 3 weeks due to flu and upper respiratory infection. So I got my work cut out ahead in this area.

As for sex, the feelings are not as bad as before, and I can handle it fine. I've been doing the No More Mr Nice Guy approach ever since I got a hold of the book.

I've pretty much eliminated my passive-aggressive behaviors. I express how I feel more directly without fear, be that I am sad, angry, or mad.

Good luck and take care of yourself.


-- Still JM --

Met `82, Steady May`86, Married Jul`95. D12, S9, D3. MB`ing since Apr`02 to fall back "in love."

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Sorry, I have nothing helpful to add; just a question:

Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
I feel plenty of anger. The constant mantra inside my head when I am not distracted is "FYB, FYB, FYB". But as you say, I do not show it externally as anger. Externally I am sometimes pleasant. Often depressed. Rarely angry.


Can you please teach me to be externally pleasant (even sometimes) in spite of a similar mantra?


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Hold...is there any chance that you misunderstood the counselor or took it upon yourself to twist the advice a bit? Did the counselor say to withhold angry outbursts, or withhold anger altogether?

Just wondering...because here's a counselor who couldn't help you as a couple - Are you so sure that their advice to you as an individual wouldn't be off the mark as well?

Can you recall that conversation? Just wondering.

Last edited by Soolee; 12/02/09 05:29 AM.

Sooly

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Hold, I want to recommend to you a book.

I don't remember the author, but it's called "I know I'm in there somewhere".

I read it, and it's been really helping me to deal with my anger. It isn't enough just to say in your head "fyb" and to KNOW that you are angry.

Your anger has to have a place. Otherwise, all you are doing is holding back the dam. Sure, you know there is anger behind the dam, and some of it spills over on you--but the energy it takes to hold that dam back can prevent you from having any other emotion.

I would venture that you have anger not just towards your wife, but towards your parents and other situations in your life. It's a lot easier to say "Oh I'm JUST angry at myself and my wife", while holding up the dam.

That isn't enough. You have to let it out. You have to let it have a voice... I don't mean unleashing it on your wife. I mean, letting it have a voice within YOU. Letting it teach you about yourself and your needs...

In any case, the book is really good--it isn't just about anger. It's kind of about finding yourself. It was very helpful for me, and I am still doing some of the things I learned about in there.


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Hi Hold . . . it has been a while.

I don't have a lot to say that you havent heard, as we have both been at this for a long time. It does occur to me that perhaps you are reaching a new stage in the marriage . . . indifference.

I see others think you have suppressed anger and you agree to a certain extent: but really, who doesn't have some anger and resentment about their partner, the state of the marriage, where they are in their career, etc. ad nauseam? Anger is just an emotion.

I think indifference may bring you a new perspective. Detachment isnt a four-letter word. Sometimes it is the smartest way to be. You certainly aren't begging for crumbs as you once were; that is progress of a sort. You arent looking to your wife for happiness and that is a good thing. Happiness has to come from an internal source and I cant tell you how to find it . . . just where not to look. But you really should keep looking. Life is short and none of us are getting any younger. Life doesnt have to be misery.

If nothing else, I can say that you have endurance . . . you are not a quitter and you know how to suffer. For some reason what pops into mind is something Hermann Hesse wrote in Siddhartha. A merchant asked Siddhartha what is his worth, what he can do? And Siddhartha said I can think, I can wait, I can fast. Perhaps that is enough sometimes, just to be able to think and wait. There will be a time for doing. You will know when that time is ripe.


As Always,

Comfortably Numb


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Took me nearly 24 hours to figure out what "fyb" means (I think I figured it out)...

was stuck on "for your buttons" for awhile

for your benefit

for your benevolence

I felt really slow and left out...

Then it hit me what it may well mean and I shocked myself.

No biggee...happens a lot.

smile

I think your belief you failed is the core of your anger.

You failed today to change someone else...to change their choices, their past choices, their future choices.

To me, that's an awesome, wonderful thing to fail at...and to realize you failed at it...because it wasn't real to begin with.

You can only fail today...one day at a time. God is looking out for you, insuring you fail at what wasn't within your power to begin with...that's how he doesn't fail you.

LA

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Originally Posted By: jayne241
Can you please teach me to be externally pleasant (even sometimes) in spite of a similar mantra?


No, and I don't think it would be a good idea to do it even if I could.

I can behave this way because I am sufficiently broken. Have sufficiently low self-esteem. Sufficiently little pride. That I am willing simply to TAKE IT. Even when I know I shouldn't. I can be pleasant because I do not respect myself enough to act upon my anger.

I don't think you want me to teach you how to be this way.

Originally Posted By: Soolee
is there any chance that you misunderstood the counselor or took it upon yourself to twist the advice a bit? Did the counselor say to withhold angry outbursts, or withhold anger altogether?


No, was fairly clear. Message was "we cannot work on her sexual rejection until you stop expressing so much anger." Nothing along the lines of "it is understandable that you may BE angry but you need to learn to express that anger in a more productive manner". None of the MCs turned to Mrs. Hold and said anything like "I know it hurts to have Hold express such anger toward you, but can you understand how much it hurts him when you reject him sexually? Can you understand how hard it is for him to control his anger in the face of continual rejection?" I got the message loud and clear. Do not overtly express any anger toward your wife if you hope to ever have sex again. Back then, I did hope for more sex. So I stopped expressing anger. I didn't stop FEELING the anger. I just stopped expressing it.

Well, except for the one session where the sex therapist asked me if I should rethink my goals in life and stop aiming for sex as an objective. I told her it is my life and I get to pick what I want and what I aim for and what I want is more sex. Her job was to help me get it. If she was not comfortable helping me to have a better sex life with my wife (she was, after all, a licensed AASECT sex therapist), then we were done.

Telly
Thanks for the book suggestion. Sounds like something I should look into.

CN
Thanks for checking in. I think you understand me very well. I am quite good at enduring my self-imposed abuse.


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HOLD and Telly, it may help to literally BEND OVER.

When I was getting flack from my abusive boss years ago and some of the other gossipy co workers, I started to become depressed because I needed that job and was losing what little self esteem I had left to leave the bad job and get another better one.

I went home one day and "bent over" and yelled for them to #@$@%me one more time! Then I began yelling, "One more time and I am outta here!" Etc.

I yelled and screamed for a while in my empty house,, and then something changed within me and I was able to hold it together and apply for another job. I got the position (because I ASSUMED the position) and was better off.

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