I agree with this statement and im my case it wasnt because of W EB (emotional blackmail) 4 years ago but certainly we were not happy in the 6 months before the A. However childish my issues were they still got me down and my lack of serious boundries; well any boudries actually; enabled A to happen.



We definately didnt deal with MK leaving we just accepted that he did, well actually I was very relieved to be honest as I hated his guts as you can imagine. I didnt want to hate W so he was the target. Also his 'departure' from our lives was a big scene itself, as she played him borke into his msn account and found out his real story. She became good friends with a girl who was sooo loved up with MK, believed they were ment to be together etc... but then my W found out he was married. This made MK ex GF and my W get even closer as the BWomen. This masked the fact that he had left our lives and this time hopefully for good.



I do believe we both have a lot of work to do on ourselves and on our M. I still feel I need to progress first and quickest to give my W security of the future as it was my actions that shattered her world and broke her heart. After she is comfortable that im here to stay and I can meet her needs during R we can discuss necessary changes needed to avoid LB's.


[/quote]Maybe you really are certain that your A had nothing to do with your W's actions in the past. I was absolutely certain that mine had nothing to do with my H's. But, what did you and BH do to recover your M after she stopped all contact with the OM? Did you get counseling? Did you read any of the Harley's books (or other books, since I'm assuming you didn't know about this site then)? Did you actually go through the process of R your M? What steps were taken to R your marriage after your W's EA? And, if no steps were taken, how can you be completely sure that her past actions have had no affect whatsoever on you or your M? [/quote]

Guess I've answered this above. We didnt do anything after MK left just got on with life. W became friends with MK ex GF which I guess looking back was another tie to MK even if not actually with him.

I have a huge amount of soul searching and personal improvements to make, im making small ones already that even W is acknowledging but its all too slow, too little and too late. If these improvements were made inside our M they would have been great but at the moment we arent inside M but a dark place post A.

The amount of work is intimidating and the fact I cant seem to pull off anything im trying at the moment is proving really tough, but im proud of my new found mental strength to get up EVERYDAY and keep plugging away. In the past i've been a runner (i.e. I cant do what you want or make you happy so I better leave so you can find someone that'll make you happy as you deserve to be.)

I know that effort alone wont get me anything but a D but im sticking with my new found determination that I will maage to turn things around.

Thanks for posting back Writer1, great to have your input

Your w and yourself seem to be ,as I once was ,unaware of the danger of a relationship with a member of the opposite sex which starts as a friendship but becomes too close for comfort without necessarily becoming sexual.

Do you understand the difference between an A and an EA ?

Yes I do, My issue is with boundries and my W is with dealing with my mistreatment of her over the years we've been mnarried.

Also I think a large part of my issue is that I have VERY low self esteem and therefore seek a lot of Admiration. My wife isnt able to fulfill this EN as we've been married for 10 years and we are in the taking for granted mode. Hence without any boundries its very easy for me to feel close to someone that notices how much I do at home, how hard I work etc....

This is why it is critical for me to implement concrete boundries immediately and im doing this with Steves advice. I am making a list of boundries and will run them past steve next time we talk.

Also I dont believe my W has ANY issues with being just friends with a man, She doesnt particularly get on with women and has always got on better with males. All of her best friends have been male and theres been no issues in 28 years. She knew exactly what she was doing with MK because she had tried EVERYTHING else to reach me over the years except leave me. She tried to use MK to prevoke a response and because sometimes it worked she found it hard not to keep doing it when I was being a selfish a******e. Im not defending her but you can see that im still with her therefore understand on some level what she did and why.

Right I need to get back on track with my M.

My week off has not gone to plan, in fact added to stress. W is starting to see continuing pointless and has issued a D day of January to see progress and effort.

I knew this week would be hard as the expectation was huge. I misunderstood the theme for the week and so my plan was useless and failed day by painful day.

The few things that could still have gone well were ruined by my lack of effort to manage down to the smallest detail. Therefore leaving to much opportunity for things to fail, which they did.

We have even more on our plate as now the job application has fallen through - This is devestating as this was to ensure NC and has absolutely shattered my W's hope for the future. I will contact the company as im over qualified for the position and was recommended by a current employee. I did have one bout of sickness after a vascectomy but that was a one off explained absense so dont know why they wouldnt even interview me???

So job hunting very high on my agenda as I can move the world for my W but if still working with OW its kind of fruitless.

Just when we thought our life couldnt get anymore unstable - a new low

We have an appointment with Steve for monday so looking forward to that.

Havent continued to read SAA for weeks now, I wish too but want to do so with my W who currently doesnt have any interest. I may well continue to read in my own time as I need to see if theres anything that could help me as some of the book has helped me already.

edit: have spoken to company re:job application. Very imformative chat with HR manager. Apparently no positions but upon speaking to me and being impressed he did let it slip that someone on my patch is leaving and he will keep me on file. I hope this is a good sign, as a manager he shouldn't have told me that info unless he intended to help me. Fingers crossed, anyway not eggs in one basket this time, been job hunting all morning and found some other possiblities - although hours not as good they are still options. Will keep updated

YUP! YUP! YUP! BS Triggers EVERYDAY knowing you risk seeing OW as much or more than you see your own wife.......


Mark the spot that your wife left off and continue on your own! You can go back and read together anytime she is ready and willing. Won't kill you to re-read with her. I've read and re-read each of Dr. H's books about a dozen times, gleaning new info each time.

Get on it! And get your eyes focused forward!

Definately I've wanted to for weeks now. Guess that was a pretty obvious solution, enough said




[/quote]

Mornin'

Keen to hear your update???

Hey Emotionally(backwards)

I hear you packed your bags and were ready to go last night.

I thought you were willing to do whatever it would take for as long as it would take??

Whats up with this??

BS not willing to suck it up and just get over it fast enough for you or what??

Welcome back yll,

I have to say that reading this thread of yours and also that of your wife, something seems amiss.

What you write on MB doesn't paint the picture of you as a person and H that is painted by your W on her thread.

Who is the real yll? Who is the real BH?

Which version of your behaviour this last week is correct? I completely understand that each of us has our own perspective on events, but reading recently, it is like reading about two different H's in two different M's.

I'll post again soon but I'll hold my hands up, I posted while frustrated and the above post wasnt a fair account or reflection of events.

I apologise and Ill re-address later

Sorry to waste your time, stick with BH thread

Get a dog.

Emo...

Want esteem? BE estimable.

Want respect? CONDUCT yourself respectably.

Want admiration? ACT admirably.

Spend less time searching cyberspace for examples & role models; BE the example you seek.

I'm not sure why you are apologizing. Most situations involving 2 people do have different viewpoints. You are not your wife and she is not you. We all know that the truth lies somewhere in the middle.....

Keep doing EXACTLY what Steve tells you to do. Do not veer from that course, NO MATTER WHAT!!!!!

And since I saw that post prior to your deleting of it, I again want to urge you NOT TO ATTEND that party. I would tell BH that you love her so much that you will not be a party to that self-destruction of herself. It would be no different than you taking an alcholic to a bar......Also, if I was YOU, I would get a hold of Steve ASAP (remember, he ORDERED you to do this....) and let him know again that BH is hell-bent on attending this party and what would be the right thing for you to do.....

And if you do decide to take a stand on this issue, prepare now for her anger....ask Steve how you should respond to that.....

not2fun

Im apologising because I posted while feeling very frustrated and therefore it didnt just misrepresent the situation but even contradicted the few things I've learnt on this site.

Of course there are 2 sides to every story, absolutely, but the post in question didnt actually cover either mine or my W it was THAT distorted.

Yes after talking to Steve I am clear that NO deviations can occur for maximum chance of recovery. He has told us to email him instantly should any issues arise from either side and he will advise from there. He has also explained the whole plan to me now, so I can see something tangeable.

To be honest im not going to discuss the party any longer, its just not going to help my W or I to spend anymore time on this subject. Steve is very much aware regarding the party, from both my W and my individual consultations. He will deal with it how hes sees fit.

Im going to take a break from MB to concentrate on the tasks Steve has set me, also currently im not at a place personally where im able to reach out for help here, so I will stick with Steve for now. Thanks for everything so far though I have definately learnt a lot from MB.

See you soon

ok, im back in need of advice if anyone can pend a few minutes with me.

We're at a stage where OW appears to have taken a back seat (phew!!)- which is obviously great, but now that means all anger and sadness is aimed at yours truly. This is better for us and our recovery IF I was able to handle it appropriately and reasure my W when she needs it.

So heres the issue, communication is without a doubt my weakest side, always has been, still is, but doesnt have to stay that way, however that takes time and probably hard work with Steve, however time is a precious commodity that I dont possess.

My W believes in reassurance she is asking for something really simple and in theory it probably is, but however retarded this may sound I just dont get it. My view of reassurance is that I love her, I want to be with her, We've grown up and shared so much together, we're been so strong through trials in the past and always come out stronger, we madeplan for OUR future and I wantt to experience them with her and so on.

This isnt even touching the side, last night I think we were both close to tears, both due to frustration, both for same reason (me not getting it), but on opposing sides of the fence.....

She says that these examples are to vague and that they need more details to be meaningful and reassuring. I dont 'carry' thoughts around with me and so have to 'task' out answers which drives her mad as she wants me to have answers in my mind and ready to go and if I must sit down and treat it like a task it again defeats the object of being reassuring as its not natural.

I feel so frustrated as I cant win, I dont have these thoughts readily available, Im so backward in the way I think, but refuse to believe that I cant be helped hence why Im refusing to walk despite the feeling that we are both suffering to much to continue. We are really down to our basics now, we'e running on fumes, we need a boost to lift our spirits. Nothing not even life around us is going well this marital issue is controlling our world.

There isnt a minute of the day which isnt in some way affected by the A. Its suffocating and its effecting our house, financial situaiton, kids, work (both), sleep, time spent together - literally EVERYTHING, there isnt a minute of resbite to enjoy each others company.

I know she desperately wants this to be put to bed so life can be put back into a controlled manner again, where everyone benefits but understandably so she not in a place to do that right now.

Ive always been live in the moment, happy go lucky but for the first time in my life im starting to have worrying thoughts - they're controllable just scary.

I guess this is a giant cry for help. I want to change who I am but im like a baby, I dont get things unless they are spoon fed to me. I dont believe for a second I dont care - I just dont think normally or get anything emotional so appears I dont give a damn.

Arrrghhh what a desperate situation ..........

AM I A LOST CAUSE?? AM I RIGHT TO KEEP TRYING DESPITE CONTINUING TO HURT MY WIFE. I WANT TO CHANGE BUT SEEING WHAT IM REDUCING HER TOO ON A DAILLY BASIS IS KILLING ME :'(

I think you're making this too complicated. She wants honesty, conversation, and compassion.

Get yourself a talking stick. Do you know what that is? It's an object - could be a pencil, a feather, a stuffed giraffe, whatever the two of you agree on - that both of you recognize as the 'giver' of the right to talk. When one person holds it, the other doesn't speak. Teaches respect and also listening, which we all need.

Choose one time a week where the two of you will be alone. This will be the time that you talk about your marriage and the effects of the affair. You will take turns talking, the other will listen, you will be honest, you will seek solutions.

And, when the hour is over, you go back to your life. No relationship talk. Save it for the talking stick time. But each time you have a talk, you feel refreshed, respected, loved, and hopeful.

Thank you for taking time to reply.

I'll be honest I do have issues with your suggestion and heres why:

Our chats arent convenient, as you've read from her own thread she has no patience. Everyday I read her thread and LOVE the advice being given but absolutely NONE of it is taken on board or practiced. Im not here to 'put down' my wife as she will read this and think im playing games again but I have to be honest. I would love it if she was able to follow any advice she was given from MB but its just not her. I know for a fact she WANTS to but just cant.

Our chats typically happen between 12-6am as thats when shes feeling tired and low - this decends into huge arguments. Then the next day becomes useless as we both to tired to function, I cant complete any tasks I had set myself, do housework, spend time with kids, go to work and focus on job etc etc.. she has had to call in sick last 2 days because by 5am when she was due to wake up for work she hadnt even got 1 min of sleep.

So as much as I like the idea of the controlled convosations theres absolutely no hope of this happening. Sorry

Then there is my part to play in this. Even if we did manage a controlled converstaion my issue is not being able to participate in it at an acceptable level for my W. Im to mentally challenged and shes very deep and analytical (opposites) so just about every convo we have end up in disaster, anger, frustration, threats, ultimatums etc.... And I can understand why which is why im asking for help with my skills so I can at least meet her half way and buy us time by being able to reassure her.

p.s. Just another thought - When things are good better us im so much more naturally loving and reassuring towards her in actions but when things are tough and shes expecting and arguing with me I cant function (sounds drastic but please take this at face value as it accurate).

Is this because I cant understand her pain??

Is it because im intimidated by her verbally aggresive nature?

Is it because im only happy when life is good for me??

Thanks

I am sure you can find a time once a WEEK to talk outside of 12-6AM. If you can not, you need to look at your priorities. Take responsibility for fixing problems you see, and think outside of the box. You can do this.

Wow. Where do I start?

First, as you are the WH, it isn't your position to determine whether she enacts any advice at all. It's your position to HOPE that she will continue to work on the marriage at all. She probably 'can't' use it right now because she is too raw. Some people heal in a month; some in five years. It's not your place to determine when she is ready to look at things.

Second, why on earth would you have a serious discussion after midnight? Unless you both work night shift, your biorhythmn is running on empty by that point. Are you willing to take yourself out of your comfort zone and LOOK for another time, or are you just ready to quit?

Third, for someone who says he wants to save his marriage, this is about the silliest thing I've ever read:
Are you going to fight for the marriage, or aren't you? If so, quit making excuses.

Fourth, I WAS offering you help with your skills. I was trying to make it as simple as it can possibly be. ONE RULE: whoever holds the stick, talks, while the other listens. If she has a question, she holds the stick, asks you, and hands you the stick; you answer the question. If you don't have a question or comment for her, you hand her back the stick. Rinse and repeat, until the hour is over. If it's too hard for you, start out with HALF an hour. If communication is such a hard thing for you two, THIS is how therapists fix it.

If you want to get a little more complicated than that, the followup step to the talking stick is that, when you say what you want to say, she is supposed to repeat back to you what SHE heard you say, to see if she understood it correctly. If not, you take the stick back and explain it better. Rinse and repeat.

The talking stick is a CONTROL. If you honor its premise - and if you can't even honor that much in your marriage, you might as well just give up - that you will respect each other long enough to say a simple sentence, then you CAN start learning how to communicate without all the drama. It's a false control, to replace the one the two of you never learned. But it's a very real reminder in the room that you two have a goal.


My belief is that, when things are tough, you are in survival mode and you reach back into your childhood and pull out whatever methods worked for you back then to avoid pain, punishment, anger, judgment, or disappointment. You use childhood methods to push her away and protect yourself. Now, that could be a case of low self esteem, it could just be bad methods learned, could be toxic shame...only you would know. But it is a defense mechanism to avoid pain. We all do it. It is human nature. The difference is in how we learned to do it. In a healthy shame way, or a toxic shame way. Productive, or destructive.

If you can step outside yourself, be honest with yourself, yet know that we are all precious beings in God's eye (therefore not worth throwing away), you can judge yourself, and still find room for improvement.

Do you know what the key component of MB is? It is that we cannot change others, we can only change ourselves. And we should strive to change ourselves, for the better. Only when we realize that, do we become loveable. Because we stop thinking about what our spouse can do FOR us, but what we can do for them. The magic is that, once we reach that level, the other person becomes so happy, that THEY want to make US happy. Then the circle is complete.