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I don't get that from those posts EE. Just as anger has underlying issues the same could be true as to why a person does not want to be intimate with her partner. It's not going to help the M if you stick a bandaid on the wound (having more SF) when the infection is still present underneath.


Last edited by black_raven; 12/10/09 11:58 AM. Reason: typos

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It doesn't help to just say no without saying in a clear, easy to understand fashion what it takes to get to an enthusiastic yes either.

What we seem to miss ( I haven't, but many have ) is that too often the reason why there is a no are not published.

Look at this thread:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2277603&page=all

She just "suffered" in silence and then had an affair. But she wants to "fix" her husband. He's the problem since he won't go to counseling or anything else like that.

Huh? She had the affair, she tries to re-educate him (an LB) and talk him out of his definition for affection. But he's the problem.

I'm not saying there are not problems. My problem with these discussions is they almost exclusively look externally to the person who doesn't want to have sex.

Few ask them if they've made their dissatisfaction known in a fashion that doesn't involve LB'ing.

Even Dr H's articles about WW's indicate that most DON'T tell their husbands they are dissatisfied.

The OP here seems to follow that pattern pretty well. Or if they tell, they ruin any hopes of the message being heard and understood with the LB delivery that comes with the message.

Sorry, I see it all the time here.

I do see SF being used as a weapon, or the carrot and the withholding being used as a stick.

Just this past weekend, my wife's sorority (I didn't realize women kept up with those things 20 years after school, LOL.) had it's Christmas party. So we had a collection of 30 and 40 something college graduates and their husbands. And they were talking, openly about how they used sex to manipulate their husbands.

One offered oral sex when he completed projects around the house and would say no to him if he didn't get things done to her satisfaction.

The others cheered her on, save for my wife who in the car asked me if I thought she did that sort of thing.

(I resisted the urge to ask for oral, right there in the car as proof, but it would have been funny if taken in the right spirit.)

But I think using SF as a weapon is more prevalent than many would like to admit.

I think many have convinced themselves that it's justified because of some perceived problem. But I suspect that's closer to wayward thinking than it is marriage building.

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EE I don't think disagree with you that some women use sex as a weapon. But even from reading your post, I think it still comes down to perspective. Female posters offer some insight about how women view things (in general) and then are told how that doesn't make sense. think I'm sure you could say the same thing about men. But I still welcome any male insight as it may be that I'm too close to the issue to see it with an objective eye or at the very least see an issue from my husband's POV.

The example you gave about the the Christmas party... "I didn't realize women kept up with those things 20 years after school, LOL"...that is how many (most?) women think but you didn't realize it...so there ya go. grin If there was talk of using sex to manipulate the other spouse I would not automatically assume this was a serious conversation. People do joke around ya know. We BSs need to keep our sense of humor and not turn everything into a serious issue especially when the topic is triggerish.

H and I both prod each other and others in jest. Some could very well be serious but IME, both men and women join in on the "fun" and don't mean anything by it. Just as people exaggerate fishing stories and other pile on to make it all the more laughable.


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EE,

You are explaining it very well there. Whether intentional or not the withholding of SF is wrong if not for specified real reasons. That is where many refused S get there frustration. If you do X or act like Y, then I'll want to be intimate with you. Why is hard for the refusing S to see that if this is the refused top EN that not meeting that will drive them to a state of LB, OA, not wanting to follow through with POJA or UA? This inturn leads to resentments all around.

Mel and the others are correct, and I agree, that women in general want to be far away from intimacy after arguements or LB/OA, but fail to see that SF different in that if there is a fight and refusing spouse doesn't want SF for a week or more the refused S has no way to relieve his/her frustration where as any other EN can be met outside the M, so the refused spouse is literally left to make all concessions in order to get SF back on track.

I do not believe the 90% theory, sorry I'm not buying into that. I have my faults, but I'm the only one in the M who has changed and put effort into M to make it better and I'm still lacking SF. Could I be in the 10%? Maybe, but there are too many S in the same boat for me to believe this.

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Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
(I resisted the urge to ask for oral, right there in the car as proof, but it would have been funny if taken in the right spirit.)

I agree. You should have asked. grin


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Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
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Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
I'm not saying there are not problems. My problem with these discussions is they almost exclusively look externally to the person who doesn't want to have sex.

Few ask them if they've made their dissatisfaction known in a fashion that doesn't involve LB'ing.

Even Dr H's articles about WW's indicate that most DON'T tell their husbands they are dissatisfied.

You hit on the cause, EE. This is why Marriage Builders can't be cherry picked. So many have problems with SF but they aren't working the rest of the program and wonder why. If a couple is practicing radical honesty, they should be TELLING the other spouse when they are doing things that create a wedge. And I will give you an example. My H loves to GROPE. I used to tolerate it until I realized how ANNOYING it is to me. I was actually avoiding him and cringing when he walked by me.

Now, whose fault is it that this went on causing damage to our marriage and he was none the wiser?? IT WAS MINE! My H is not a mind reader. He had no way of knowing that groping turns me off immensely. So, it was up to me to explain to him what a turn off it is. Obviously, my H does not want a turned off wife, so he stopped.

If this situation got so bad that I didn't want to have SF with him anymore, who would be to blame? ME! And who would pay the price? HIM!

This is why it is so important to be radically honest about ongoing lovebusters. If folks would apply the program in its entirety, rather than cherry pick the parts that seem easiest, these kind of issues are easily resolved. Now, my H and I tell each other when someone bothers us. We are in this habit so we avoid problems that create a loss of love.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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p.s. my H was SURPRISED when I told him how much I loathed groping. He never would have guessed! And most men are like that, they have no idea whatsoever what the problem is and are TERRIBLE guessers when it comes to women.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Mel,

I know you said it isn't, say our fault for not mind reading, but how do you go forward when S says they can't think of anything you do or don't do and don't have epiphany moments, but continue refusing?

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Originally Posted by themud
Mel,

I know you said it isn't, say our fault for not mind reading, but how do you go forward when S says they can't think of anything you do or don't do and don't have epiphany moments, but continue refusing?

This is why I think you should go to a MB weekend, themud. Your wife doesn't see the benefit of radical honesty and doesn't understand or believe that she can fall in love with you again. But she can, if y'all use the program in its entirety. I don't think you can sell her, but the MB weekend and the continued, WEEKLY, influence of Dr Harley and his coaches might be able to do that.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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My H used to also suffer in silence and then have angry outbursts when he was doing something he didn't really want to do. He has been trained now, via the POJA. POJA fixes that problem. Nor do I EVER try to browbeat him into doing something he doesn't want to do. Nor does he do that to me.

POJA was the hardest thing for us to learn. We about killed each other in the process, but once you get it down, WOW. It makes an amazing difference and relieves so much anxiety.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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themud, another thing about going to that MB weekend is that if your wife needs a cattle prod, it is the coach or Dr Harley who will do it, rather than you. Dr Harley once told my H, very firmly, that he needed to be carted off to Anger Management courses. My H about stroked out! he has not had an angry outburst since. [he also told me that I TRIGGERED it with my independent behavior - funny how my H calmed down immensely since I straightened up grin ]


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Now, whose fault is it that this went on causing damage to our marriage and he was none the wiser?? IT WAS MINE! My H is not a mind reader. He had no way of knowing that groping turns me off immensely. So, it was up to me to explain to him what a turn off it is. Obviously, my H does not want a turned off wife, so he stopped.


Did you suggest to your h what types of behavior would work better in this situation?

The reason I ask is when I tell my h something I don't like that he is doing, and ways in which will work bettter, he becomes very resentful and that builds. Yes he has told me this. He does not like it when I ask him to do something different.

Maybe he feels like i'm trying to change him and well not him just his behavior sometimes.

How do you discuss it without building resentment.

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Originally Posted by bjs
Did you suggest to your h what types of behavior would work better in this situation?

I told him to KEEP YOUR MITTS OFF THE MERCHANDISE. What would work better is keeping his hands off me.

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The reason I ask is when I tell my h something I don't like that he is doing, and ways in which will work bettter, he becomes very resentful and that builds. Yes he has told me this. He does not like it when I ask him to do something different.

A complaint is an opportunity for improvement in a good marriage and an irritation in a bad marriage. The problem is not your complaint, but that he has a freeloader's attitude. That could change if you start implementing all of the MB program.

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Maybe he feels like i'm trying to change him and well not him just his behavior sometimes.

Well, you are trying to change him, that is the point. He needs to make changes in your marriage if you are to be happy. And vice versa. If he doesn't, it will lead to incompatibility and unhappiness. Does he want you to be unhappy?

check out this article on complaining in marriage: Complaining in Marriage

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Maybe he feels like i'm trying to change him and well not him just his behavior sometimes.

From Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders:

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carpet, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by bjs
MelodyLane

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Now, whose fault is it that this went on causing damage to our marriage and he was none the wiser?? IT WAS MINE! My H is not a mind reader. He had no way of knowing that groping turns me off immensely. So, it was up to me to explain to him what a turn off it is. Obviously, my H does not want a turned off wife, so he stopped.


Did you suggest to your h what types of behavior would work better in this situation?

The reason I ask is when I tell my h something I don't like that he is doing, and ways in which will work bettter, he becomes very resentful and that builds. Yes he has told me this. He does not like it when I ask him to do something different.

Maybe he feels like i'm trying to change him and well not him just his behavior sometimes.

How do you discuss it without building resentment.

Why not just present it in terms of yourself.

I.E. when you grope me, wanting to make love to you is the last thing on my mind. I don't like being groped.

That way, you don't make it about him, you make it about you and your feelings.

If you say, do A and not B, that's not really intimate, it's mechanical.

But if you say, I don't like B, but when you did A that one time, WOW!

Subtle, and of course every case is different.

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WOW! I didn't expect so many responses, and this thread got jacked. But I think my initial question has been lost. I am not concerned about the REASONS for withholding SF (and I postulated with a woman withholding from a man, but it could and is the other way as well).

I am basically asking this:

If a woman withholds sex (CLEARLY a need) from a man, there is always a "reason". Let's not talk about validity, that's not the point. If a man withholds sex, again, there is a reason. And JUST FOR SEX society is always telling us that those reasons are valid and must be respected.

If I take a coworker to lunch and buy, then they reciprocate and pay for me the next day and this is a standard thing, say we do this every Tues and Thurs to be nice to each other.

Then in a meeting the coworker back stabs me or belittles me in front of my colleagues. Next Tuesday rolls around and I say "Hell no! After what you did? I'm not buying you lunch again..." Nobody would have a problem with that.

NOW. If my spouse is not meeting my needs, or worse, being cruel, and I decide not to feed her, or only feed her cheap food like oatmeal. OMG!!! I would be a horrible person. But the situation is not that different. The nuts and bolts of it are almost the same. It is different in our MINDS for sure.

If I withhold sex I have all kinds of reasons (excuses?) I can make about how I can't perform and the other person just must understand that I can't do this without being in the proper mood. And we all nod our heads and say "Yep. Makes sense, you go ahead and wait for the conditions to be right."

What if I said I just can't see wasting my hard earned money on nice food for someone who doesn't appreciate me? Maybe I faced starvation and have an issue with it?

And listen, I am not talking about situations where the ship is in turmoil. When my marriage was good, there was ALWAYS a reason she would withhold. The question becomes, is it good enough of a reason? Sometimes it was, sometimes I was a complete jerk. Sometimes, as near as I could figure, it was something little, like the part in my hair wasn't quite right.

There is clearly a threshold here, in an exchange like this.

Example: I'm in McDonald's with my young sons. A snotty teen boy is cursing loudly, next table over. I have a whole list of responses starting with...
a) Son, please keep the language clean, there are young kids present

and ending with

b) Shooting him dead with my .45, looking at my kids and saying "Boys, if I hear you say that, you'll get the same".

Now MOST of us would say there is nothing wrong with a) and there is plenty wrong with b).

But we would NOT agree on the response in the middle. These extremes are easy to judge. But if my chose response was somewhere in the middle...

c) putting the teen in a hammerlock and making him apologize...

Suddenly, we would be divided over that. Many of us would say the kid needs to apologize, many would say I have no right to physically force my will on another.

You see?

But withholding SF as a need, hey, as long as there is a reason, that's OK. Why?

If I am doing my best, and my wife withholds sex, that's OK. But if I force her on the oatmeal diet, WHOA, not good. Why? I may have JUST as strong as an aversion to supporting someone by feeding them who is not contributing to a partnership as as someone else has with sleeping with someone who is not contributing to a partnership.

If I told my sons that today was chore day, and they slacked off and barely worked, and I told them "Boys, me and your mom worked and you were a bunch of slackers, guess what, no dinner..." I think many of you would think that's fair. They must contribute their part to the family. But if my wife withholds and I go, honey, it's been a few months now, either a) you do it, b) you find me a substitute or c) you don't eat, I'd be run out of town.

How is it different? You might say it's her body, I maintain it's MY money (I earned it). To which you'd answer, no, in a marriage the resources must be shared, to which I'd answer, most marriage vows entail the "two become one." (Mine did) in which case, her body is as much mine as mine is...

See what I mean? Why is the boundary soooooo different with SF?

If I left for work in a pissy mood, didn't even kiss the wife good-bye, and came back wanting SF, she says no, everyone would agree with her. (I would too). Even if I say "I was having a bad day, cut me a little slack"... Nobody would think I deserve my needs met. I have to be good first.

But if I came HOME after leaving in a GOOD mood and the house was dirty because the wife was having a bad day and said "Baby, you aren't eating tonight...." WHOA!

See? The situations aren't REALLY that different, but our conditioned responses ARE.

Verbal abuse is considered bad. Verbally extending negatively to someone else. Ignoring them is also bad - clamming up and NOT engaging them in conversation. The right point is in the middle.

Sexual abuse is considered bad. But WAIT! Withholding sex - not abuse...... Why is THAT different? Heck, it is simple to calculate... She wants it 1x per month. Me 1x per week. On average, that's every other week. So she sucks it up. No? Why not?

I want to see movies 1x month, her 1x week. I suck it up and we go every other week. I suck it up. Yes. I should.

And the difference is....

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Hee hee. It is confusing. And exasperating. And the reason why an affair causes so much pain and anguish.

Try this one on for size:

"An unsolicited and undesired sexual act that someone else performs against your will causing you intense emotional and physical pain."

Did I just describe rape or adultery?

NOBODY thinks rape is good. But lots of people (not here) think adultery is just a choice. Huge differences in opinion out there. Rape is clearly bad, to many adultery is a lifestyle choice, not even criminal. Are they that different? Could you tell the difference in my definition above?

Do we REALLY consider our actions? Or do we just follow the lead of others....

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Both adultery and rape are bad but I'm more confused at what the point of any of this is when you already have your mind made up.


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Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
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Ha. I am too old to be changing my mind anymore. smile

I don't recall expressing WHAT my personal opinion on the topic was....

But for the record, it is this: When my spouse withheld, I was nothing but patient and understanding. I respected it as her body, and, like someone above posted, really wouldn't want SF with someone who didn't want it with me. AND I never did anything underhanded like not feed her. Sometimes I would get tired of the withholding and withdraw. Most times I did well. Did that work for me? No. I didn't get SF nearly as much as I wanted and my marriage ended. Would I do it again differently? No. Because I REALLY LIKE who I see in the mirror.

My question is more along the lines of why does it fall into such a SEPARATE group? They typical guy is a jerk if he doesn't talk to his wife and meet her conversation needs. But if the wife doesn't meet the SF needs, there are issues... Call Dr. Phil and Oprah!

Why is adultery in such a separate group? Why is it not criminal? A marriage is a contract. Certain business contracts we enter can carry jail time if we breach them. Especially repeatedly. (Which also raises the point.... if my ex cheated, why WOULD I want her back under threat of force? I wouldn't. She didn't want me. She's gone. Now I'm glad. If she came back for the good of the kids, or because she felt it was wrong, or because her faith told her to, I wouldn't want her back. If she came back because she wanted ME, that's the only way. (Though not now, it's been too long, and I'm having too much fun smile ).

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I have an odd and different perspective: I withheld at times due to what I perceived as problems with my W's physical health. She suffers from migraines, heavy menstruation and sometimes a less pleasant result of her (hidden) binging efforts. When she seemed debilitated to me, I was not aroused by her and so I left her alone.

Of course, she turned this on me after the A began, saying that she thought it only normal that a husband and wife would have a more active SF life.

D*mned if you do, d*mned if you don't.


Preach the Gospel every day. When necessary, use words.
St. Francis of Assissi
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