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I have been reading the boards for over 4 years, posting for less than that. I never thought I would be here.
I have gone from EA to recovery to MB101 to now here.

My H had an EA (he does not beleive in EA's thought) and I beleive a MLC that started the marriage slide into hell.
He will not change his t hinking. I just don't mean that much to him. He has not found "religion" and feels this puts him in the superior position. and if he goofs up- with his little oopsies--- hey, he can bless himself and just move on. and it is "yesterdays news" and he should be forgiven.

He says he does not want a D, but will not do any "MB stuff" (like tell the truth, of take a Lie detector) He feels he is in the superior moral pisition, since he has religion.

He has become very religious the past few years. But it has been pointed out (by my IC) that he uses it as an excuse to forgive himself, and attempt force change in me (and others).

My IC says that any program like MB will be used to the takers advantage, and he is worried about me putting up 100% again and having things used against me. Like POJA and meeting EN's.

For example, he sent me a big "God requires you to forgive people e-card, then spent 30 minutes online looking at single Catholic hook up dating sites." He has spent (by his best guess) at least 12 times "just looking at" dating sites during our marriage. He sees nothing wrong with this behavior, and I should grow up and get over it and forgive him. He says he has never signed up, (for the dating sites that is)--I should forgive him and he will never do it again-- but the problem is I usually catch him again.

I am tired. We have seen three counselors in the past 4 years, TWO have told me he has maturity problems that seriously inhibit his ability to be a good partner. That he does not really care about me, he just focuses on himself 100% of the time. He also come across to them as not a very good learner- (he thinks he is a genious) and self serving. He does not need to change, we all just misunderstand him and if I would change these "little things" would not happen.

It has been, up and down four years. I have had enough. I am sick of the up and downs. I am just a normal person, not in need of drama and selfish hurt he has grown to thrive on. It is really his way of the Highway. Everything is 100% my fault. I am tired.


He has done some terrible things to me (6 weeks after my mother dies, he filed papers to divorce me "because I was not forgiving him") But he never told me this news- just his brothers/ his friends and and family. Seriously, who does this SIX weeks after spouse's last parent dies? Couldn't he have held off a few more months or so? Current IC says it was deliberate at this time to couse as much pain as possible. To make me (forgive him or divorce him).

He can not show humility, is always defending himself as "right" and even though he says sorry, it does not come accross as very sincere. AND he is a repeat offender in my book. Our first IC says he has 2 answers; an excuse or a denial for EVERYTHING. He has not in 4 years changed this. She got sick so we had to stop seeing her- she recouped and only wanted to work with me later (not him, she thought he was arrogant and clueless)

I am just giving up. This is a long term marriage (23 years and two kids 13 and 17) and I feel lost.

How do I start this process? Start the process of moving on?

I am sick of pain of waiting him to grow up and put me first.

My counselor asked me to have him write a letter to me telling me what the marriage means to him and why we should stay married.

My IC saud he would never bother to do it.

My IC was right. He never did. He promised he would- just did not "get around" to it. My H we could "talk it out".


This is exactly what mu IC said he would do.

I keep telling him you can't B.S. your way out a situation you acted yourself into.

Is there anyone here with a similar situation?
I walk around with my heart on my sleave for over 4 years, he just smashes it with deciet and game playing, and never gives me what I need (he still has not asked me what my EN's are- after 4 years) I tell him, he just does not register them...

How do I start?

Last edited by barbiecat; 12/14/09 09:00 AM.

Me; W 46
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{{{bc}}}

I would start by reflecting on your life. Not your marriage, but your life. Who are you? What did you want out of life? What did you give up by marrying? What can you still reclaim? What things have changed, so what do you want now?

If you were all alone in the world, no money issues, could live anywhere in the world and do anything you wanted, what would it be?

Think on that. Decide how you can go about realizing what makes bc happy - and I'm not talking about another human being; I'm talking about basic needs, desires, wants, likes, things that would make you wake up and smile, because it's now part of your life.

Then start a plan on achieving it.

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For so long I was 1/2 of a union.
Everything I did was considered for my family.

I used to be Martha Stewart on crack. I loved (love) the home arts. When the dirt hit the bus of my M, EVERONE told me "how can he be unhappy with you? You live to do things for your family". and it was true.

I still put my kids ahead of me. Like a mom should. Even though he does not deserve it, I still put my H ahead of me. It is how I operate I guess.

I sound pathetic.. eww.

I like my job. I am teacher of the year for my district a few years ago.


Me; W 46
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Are your kids grown and out of the house?

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Well, I have a Senior who will be going to college next fall semester. My youngest is in the 8th grade.
She is the reason I have held it together for the past 4 years.

My H and DD17 get on like cats and dogz. The relationship trouble started over me being called in to ref those two.

My DD13 is a total sweetheart and would do nothing to upset anyone, even as a teen. Guess who is like who.


Me; W 46
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Well, I would devise a plan, then. One that will take you four years to complete and implement. Do the soul searching, decide what will make YOU happy, and come up with a 'business plan' to achieve that.

For instance, if you love teaching, but loved teaching in a rural setting vs an urban one, start researching rural areas that you might like to live in. Take the four years to fix up your house for selling and searching for a new place to live.

Or, if you love teaching, but feel like you'd like to help special needs kids, you can go back to school and take the next four years getting a specialized second degree.

Or, if you always really wanted to be a painter, well, start signing up for art classes!

See where that's going? Provides a happier life post-kids, and gives you a goal to work on, to help with your low periods.

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Originally Posted by barbiecat
I used to be Martha Stewart on crack. I loved (love) the home arts. When the dirt hit the bus of my M, EVERONE told me "how can he be unhappy with you? You live to do things for your family". and it was true.
You can still do this, but do it for yourself. Start a business! I'm telling you, there are more of us who can't spell Martha Stewart than people like you who can do it! Your services are valuable!!!!

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(((barbiecat)))))


I don't have any advice for you. Just wanted to show some support.

I have a husband who sounds somewhat similar in that he gets angry every time I bring up his EA (are you going to beat me up with that for the rest of my life?), has even said "it could be worse" and "it's not really an affair", though of course he was SO apologetic right after I busted him.

Our main issue right now is more complicated than that though and I have repeatedly said I do not want to stay in a marriage that is at best in limbo or at worse, deteroriating at an alarming rate. I want to try to fix it or move on. I've spoken with SH several times and he has suggested trying to get H on the phone with him but he is absolutely refusing.

I went online, filled out the papers and paid the filing fee. So for now, I'm in a DIY divorce!

He keeps asking me why I am treating him so poorly, won't sleep with him, etc. He alternates between acting like nothing is wrong (trying to kiss and hug me) or getting very angry with me.

And yes, it's all about HIM.

So I have no advice for you. I am trying to concentrate on my kids and other interests and live in the moment.

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barbie, have you read in the newsletters section the When to Call It Quits?


Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
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Thanks for the advice! I have been up and down and up again. We have not been getting along recently (holiday huge trigger for me)
We decided to have a anniversary dinner (I was really planning on skipping it) He again, only seems interested in making me committ to "getting over it" and never bringing it up again.

So, I said I would try, but it is not working. He asked for apologies 3 times in 2 days. Do you know how annoying that is?

He says he loves me, wants the marriage, but when the situation does not go his way, he "shuts off". He has a very wierd attitude, "affected".

I am miserable here. I am miserable when I plan on going.
the details are just too stupid to print.



Me; W 46
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Your H sounds alot like my exH. We were married 22 yrs and have 3 kids together. He had an affair at our 15 yr point and I tried everything to win him back and he did eventually come back. Five years later, he had another affair and that was the beginning of our divorce. However, the real issues underlying all this is that my ExH is very self-centered and narcissistic and I kept trying to 'fix' him which is totally impossible. As long as I clung to that completely unrealistic 'hope' it was like being in jail with no chance of parole.
I finally found a good woman attorney and oounselor who helped me start valuing me for ME!
Like they say on airplane flights- "Please adjust your own oxygen mask before attempting to assist others." It was a very hard concept for me to learn.
But I can tell you that despite a grueling 3 yr divorce, I am much happier now -a year out from our decree. It's a whole new life ahead for me, without him constantly controlling it.
Take care!


me BS-age 44 STBX- age 48
M 20 yrs, 3 kids ages 10, 15, 20
H had intense EA/PA with single coworker
D-day 2-14-01--Separated for 2 mo. H filed for divorce in April 01, then he cancelled it
Second affair another affair with a married coworker- D-day 11-20-06
Filed for divorce right after second d-day
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I think if you steel yourself for getting your own needs met for now, it may have an effect on him. I think so very many men just expect their wives to be complacent with them, no matter what they do to them. If he sees you getting along without him, it may wake him up. In the meantime, you are taking care of yourself and getting happier.

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Originally Posted by catperson
I think so very many men just expect their wives to be complacent with them, no matter what they do to them.

Sorry but I cannot let this one pass. This is crap Cat. I have a stbxww that fits this sentence to a tee so don't make this is male/female thing.


Sorry to hear where you are at Barbie. We have posted to some of the same people and I've always thought you that you have good and thoughtful posts. I lived like you are for a very long time and in the end I got rewarded by her going wayward. At some point you have to decide enough is enough and do what is best for you. I am now a couple of months away from D being final and I am in such a good place now. It's great to be excited about the future once again! It's out there for you as well.

Mindshare

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Sorry but I cannot let this one pass. This is crap Cat. I have a stbxww that fits this sentence to a tee so don't make this is male/female thing.
*shrug*

Just passing on 30 years of observation of family, friends, neighbors, and coworkers. And tons of posts in advice columns, forums, and other miscellaneous sources.

Men look for someone to replace their mothers. Women look for someone to replace their fathers. Which one is the one who most commonly puts herself last, takes care of everyone else, gives unconditional love, asks for nothing in return, and says nothing when she is hurt?

Of course there will be exceptions, like yours. But I'm speaking generalities.

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Sorry to hear that you are having a hard time. I was walked all over by my EW and she filed and I fought her. I got my kids, our house, and child support. At the time she filed I was devastated, and over the past 6 months have begun to feel surprisingly better.
The removal of the toxic person who was constantly criticizing and condemning me was painful at first, but after a while, I got some distance. Now I just wonder what I was thinking!
Sometimes I still miss her, but I mean, how much abuse should one person really take.
I'm not saying I have replaced her, and I do still love her terribly, but the things she did to me were very similar to what it sounds like you are going through. I would say give yourself some space. Work out, get some hobbies that do not center on obsessing about your marriage and you husband and how to make him stay. Some start-up business like what's been suggested would be perfect. That way you would have something to occupy your time.
You might be surprised when 3 months roll around...

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Thank you, everyone for your replies. He says he wants to stay M, has not done anything "bad" in quite some time...

He just refuses to attempt recovery "the MB way". Kinda thinks we (mb'rs) are fanatics. (well...)
Of course, he thinks I should just trust him...


I have also been reading quite a bit about MLC. fits his rear to a "t". but some say a MLC takes YEARS to recover, and I know Dr.H has ver definate opinions about this type of situation.

Problem is, it could talke 5-6 for MLC to settle, and there is NO guarentee that you will have a M then.

You know, mine never went in for the A's, really. He did have a EA. but now is sliding back on that admission.

He just became "unhappy" and we (fam) were all going to change "if we liked it or not". Mind you, I was clueless and resistant to IC or MC, so I walked into this trap like a nearsighted yard mole. I wore my heart on my sleave for 4 years, getting is smashed daily. another no no.

It does not matter if he is MB material or not. I am.

I can keep watching him like a science experiment or leave him and move on. I see "old H" every once in awhile, but this behavior is inhumane for a spouse to live with


Me; W 46
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I am with you, CP. Girls are still raised to be the traditional givers in relationships.
and
WOMEN SPOIL MEN. Mom's start, girlfriends continue.
Women have lowered their standards so much, it is hard to find a non spoilt dude (here come the 2x4's fa lalalala la la la!)

I teach HS, you should HEAR how boys think/talk about girls. I am telling you ladies, MOM's wives and girlfriends...this is NOT progress.

Last edited by barbiecat; 12/27/09 10:44 PM.

Me; W 46
Him; H 46

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When I was younger, my goal was to have 3 sons, so I could raise them 'right' and leave them for 3 lucky girls, lol.

All I can say is, is your need for him more important than your need for self respect? Can you settle for having his body near you in some form or fashion for 50 years, if you don't have respect for yourself because you've become a full-time Giver? You know you can't do that.

Do what you need for YOU. If he is on board with that, great. If not, you will survive, and find someone BETTER, who will cherish you.

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{{{{{{{{BC}}}}}}}


My very first suggestion to you is to call the Harley's yourself and counsel with them alone since your husband is not interested.

If you aren't willing to do that, I suggest you separate, deliver a Plan B letter, and go dark into Plan B. In the Plan B letter, be sure to include that the path home includes MB completely. You will never have the marriage you desire if he continues to refuse MB, so don't settle for less than that. It's clear why he rejects MB. He will have to consider your feelings before he acts on things. He will have to put effort into making sure YOU feel loved. He will have to give up his independent behavior and dishonesty. Right now he lives in a way that allows a secret, separate life and keeps you in a little compartment. That's pretty typical of any wayward, and you've seen a lot worse on here change into a great spouse. So it IS possible, even though it may feel impossible. But it won't happen without his commitment to working something like MB where the goal is to create romantic love between the two of you and to teach you both how to care and protect each other.




Originally Posted by barbiecat
He has not found "religion" and feels this puts him in the superior position. and if he goofs up- with his little oopsies--- hey, he can bless himself and just move on. and it is "yesterdays news" and he should be forgiven.


I'm assuming you meant he HAS found religion, not he has NOT found religion.

From the rest of your post, it is clear he has not found Christ. He sounds like a typical wayward using his "faith" to justify horrid actions toward the person he is called to be "one" with. A wayward (and his mentality IS wayward) will use anything and everything to gaslight, manipulate, twist, and justify their selfish behavior.

Their is always "fruit" when a person has a true conversion. The fruit may not be perfect and it may be small, but it IS visible to those who have known this person.




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He says he does not want a D, but will not do any "MB stuff" (like tell the truth, of take a Lie detector) He feels he is in the superior moral pisition, since he has religion.

See above. He is USING his "faith" to attempt to gaslight you with the "superior moral position".



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He has become very religious the past few years. But it has been pointed out (by my IC) that he uses it as an excuse to forgive himself, and attempt force change in me (and others).


OK, this one always gets me. IMO "forgiving yourself" is psychobabble and not one single Scripture verse will support the idea that a person needs forgiveness from himself.

That thinking elevates us to the level of Christ, or even above Christ, when we take this attitude of, "I've asked God to forgive me and I know he has, but I still need to forgive myself." As if that is the ultimate step in healing or making amends.

That is prideful and arrogant and is not based on Scripture or Jesus' teachings.

I believe that instead of "forgiving oneself", we need to ACCEPT the forgiveness Christ is giving TO US. That is the unfinished step that so many avoid or miss. Nonbelievers are unaware of its necessity and so feel if they could just forgive themselves they could move past the bondage they feel to the past. Believers have allowed psychobabble to infiltrate the church to the point that now we focus one forgiving ourselves instead of HUMBLING ourselves to RECEIVE the forgiveness offered through Christ.

But to do that, we must first honestly and thoroughly examine our SIN and the destruction that it has caused. This is how we become humble. We take an up-close and personal look at our fallenness...and it's ugly. The fruit of this action is HUMILITY, which your husband does not possess; and I would conclude is because he has not taken this FIRST step in salvation.

From there we confess our sin and REPENT from it. The fruit of this action is a CHANGE in behavior and thinking, which your husband does not possess. This change won't be into a perfect human :), but there should be some visible change that demonstrates humility and repentance
apparent to those around him.

The last step is to RECEIVE the gift of forgiveness granted by the only one who is capable of that level of forgiveness. The acceptance of forgiveness from Christ CANNOT come BEFORE the humility and repentance.

If the tree bears no fruit...not even buds of future fruit, one or more of the above steps have not been taken.

I say all of this not to give a self-righteous theological lesson, but to show you that he is USING the concept of faith to gaslight you. Religion has not changed him; religion is now just another tool in his toolbox to gaslight and manipulate.


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My IC says that any program like MB will be used to the takers advantage, and he is worried about me putting up 100% again and having things used against me. Like POJA and meeting EN's.


I completely disagree with your counselor. POJA PROTECTS you from his taker...and from your giver. No action is taken without your ENTHUSIASTIC agreement. Your counselor does not understand the concept and how to implement it if this is the conclusion he has drawn.



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For example, he sent me a big "God requires you to forgive people e-card,

This is a lovebuster. He is "educating" you and it is a disrepectful judgement.

And if his conversion were authentic, he would be examining HIS OWN lack of forgiveness and mercy, not yours.



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then spent 30 minutes online looking at single Catholic hook up dating sites." He has spent (by his best guess) at least 12 times "just looking at" dating sites during our marriage. He sees nothing wrong with this behavior, and I should grow up and get over it and forgive him. He says he has never signed up, (for the dating sites that is)--


This is independent behavior that he doesn't want to give up. Does your counselor understand that the MB program would PROTECT you from this type of hurtful behavior.




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I should forgive him and he will never do it again-- but the problem is I usually catch him again.


This is complete gaslighting, and you need to reverse babble it right back to him.



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I am tired. We have seen three counselors in the past 4 years, TWO have told me he has maturity problems that seriously inhibit his ability to be a good partner. That he does not really care about me, he just focuses on himself 100% of the time. He also come across to them as not a very good learner- (he thinks he is a genious) and self serving. He does not need to change, we all just misunderstand him and if I would change these "little things" would not happen.


Here's the problem with many counselors. They do not attempt to create the necessary romantic love between a couple FIRST that will draw them both back toward the marriage. Instead, they often pit the spouses against each other, with one being the bad guy and one being the good guy. Seriously BC, didn't you already know he was immature and presently was not equipped to be a good partner? What you needed to learn from the counselor was how to create a relationship where you BOTH are cared for and protected.

I have seen over and over here and IRL where counselors have not only NOT helped, but have caused MORE damage to the marriage because they create situation after situation of LOVE BUSTING. After months or years of counseling, the couple is less in love than when they began. When working with MB, couples are advised to avoid LBs at ALL COSTS for the first several weeks. There's a good reason for that.



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It has been, up and down four years. I have had enough. I am sick of the up and downs. I am just a normal person, not in need of drama and selfish hurt he has grown to thrive on. It is really his way of the Highway. Everything is 100% my fault. I am tired.


BC, I am sure you are completely exhausted and feel hopeless.

Do you see how Plan B is a good option for you at this point. Your love for your husband is being destroyed and he has no motivation to care and protect you.



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He has done some terrible things to me (6 weeks after my mother dies, he filed papers to divorce me "because I was not forgiving him") But he never told me this news- just his brothers/ his friends and and family. Seriously, who does this SIX weeks after spouse's last parent dies? Couldn't he have held off a few more months or so?

That's pretty hurtful, yes. Not anymore hurtful than what you've seen WS's do on SAA. I say that not to discount the abuse handed to you, but to remind you that many have created something beautiful from such blackened ashes.



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I am just giving up. This is a long term marriage (23 years and two kids 13 and 17) and I feel lost.

How do I start this process? Start the process of moving on?

Plan B is a first step to moving on and gives you time to come to terms with the process.



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My counselor asked me to have him write a letter to me telling me what the marriage means to him and why we should stay married.


This is an impossible task if he is not romantically in love with you. Do you see how critical it is that this be the FIRST step? Your counselor gave him an assignment he was sure to fail and which has caused love units to be withdrawn from your account. Your counselor should be helping you both PROTECT your love banks and build them back up.


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My IC saud he would never bother to do it. My IC was right. He never did.

And look at that. She KNEW he would fail, and instead of equipping him to succeed or walking him through the process, she set him up to LOSE. Not a very sound approach to marriage counseling, IMO. It's a good approach to divorce counseling though.


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Is there anyone here with a similar situation?


BC, I think there are thousands of couples in this situation and have no clue how to get out of it.

You know how to get out of it...MB. If he isn't willing to do MB, then Plan B that may possibly lead to Plan D. But continuing to do the same thing over and over is not going to produce different results.


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I walk around with my heart on my sleave for over 4 years, he just smashes it with deciet and game playing, and never gives me what I need (he still has not asked me what my EN's are- after 4 years) I tell him, he just does not register them...

How do I start?


I would contact the Harley's myself if I were you. I would counsel with them alone and stop using anyone else for awhile. They are your best shot at creating a marriage you want and need. If the marriage ends and you feel you need support through that, you can always return to an IC.



Last edited by sexymamabear; 12/28/09 02:02 PM.

Happily married to HerPapaBear



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BC, I had three sessions on my own w/ Steve. At the last one, I honestly told him I had one foot out the door and was asking for his help in getting H on board with MB because I was convinced that it was the ONLY way we'd even have a shot at saving our marriage.

We brainstormed and role-played most of that hour. Steve said a ton of stuff about H that was very accurate, a ton more that was really eye opening...all very impressive considering he'd never spoken to my husband. It's clear he sees similar behavior patterns in all of us and with his counseling background, is able to put that into a solid action plan. I have a lot of respect for him.

The ending to my story is still to be written so I have no idea if it will end happily ever after or not. But I kept my goal simple at first...just get H to agree to talk to Steve. Didn't have to be the whole hour. And I backed my words with actions, filing the D papers and moving out of the bedroom. It was almost 2 awful weeks but he spoke to Steve last Wed. And was AMAZED at how level-headed Steve was, how much sense he made, etc. He *seems* to be on board with the program..at least he doesn't consider it a cult anymore! I need to talk to Steve next--though we have to space it out due to $$$ considerations. And he wants us both to complete the EN/LB questionnaires and sen them in. My biggest questions are how far/how fast to entice H into the entire MB program. You can't cherry pick, as ML and others have said. But Steve has also said I'm a team member, not an instructor, so I have to tread carefully.

I digressed, but I think SMB's advice is right on. Call Steve on your own. Figure out a plan to get H on the phone with him for just one time for now. Baby steps.

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