Yep.

And if she doesn't, you don't want her back because she has NO humility. Which is essential for recovery. She's still trying to control you.

I followed Mel's advice and wrote a very short reply to WW's e-mail from yeterday...basically said, if you change your mind we can talk. Until then, take care.

So here is her response to that

you just completely ignored everything I said and did not respond to anything I had to say. This is going to work both ways or not at all Eddie. Would you agree to stop seeing ***** immediately if I were to agree to all of your excessive demands?

I find it interesting that she is so hung up on this other girl that I have been talking to. Seems like she is acting out of jealousy instead of a sincere desire to recover our marriage. The day she found out that I had drinks with this girls, she tells me that she wants to work on things. hmmmm?

She wants to control me by telling me who I can and can not see. I'm not sure how to reply to this one. Do I tell her that she should just worry about herself and demonstrating that she has truly changed? Or should I tell her that I will not have any female friends either. That does not seem right to me.

She is the one who broke our vows and violated our marriage. In my opinion we do not have a marriage anymore...all we have are broken promises. Marriage is like a contract and she has violated that contract, over and over again. I don't think she is in any position to be telling me what to do...

"Sally, if you feel they are excessive demands, then it is obviously not for you. You wouldn't be able to maintain anything that you feel is excessive anyway, so it wouldn't work. I wouldn't want to put you in a position that felt like a hardship; I am not up for that.

And I am ok with that. I hold no hard feelings. If you change your mind, let me know.

all my best, Ed"

Ed, she is trying to negotiate the unnegotiable, so don't allow yourself to get dragged into that tarpit. A wayward doesn't get to set the conditions of her return. YOU DO. So don't even bother arguing with her about it. She can take it or leave it.

And keep in mind that if she feels it is an "excessive demand" she won't stick to it anyway.

She is not sincere, friend, so you shouldn't even consider taking her back. She is just ticked off that you are dating and wants to force you to stop.

Mel - so you think I should not mention the girl she wants me to stop talking to? I know she will tell me I am avoiding her question...whats fair is fair. If I expect her to stop her affair then I should also committ to the marriage.

I think its best to not even mention it. This should not concern her. This is about her making changes, and has nothing to do with me. I feel like maybe I should explain that to her, or is it better left unsaid?

Thanks!

Excellent!!!

So here is the latest from WW...

All I am saying is that I am not going to adhere to your demands if you are still seeing *****. If you will stop seeing them then I will agree to work on things and come home as soon as tomorrow night after my flight.

I was thinking about replying something like this.

WW,

You are not welcome back to the house until I see a drastic change in your behavior. This would involve NC with OM, complete access to your passwords and cell phone records and your willingness to take a polygraph whenever I want. I would need to be convinced that you were done with OM for an extended period of time before I consider welcoming you back to the house.

In the meantime, my personal life and who I see or talk does not concern you.

Thoughts?

Ed, I think you're missing one of the major points, if not THE major point, in ML's suggestions. Do not engage your WW in a negotiation over your own boundaries. No furher explanation is therefore required on your part. You've stated what your requirements are for her to come back - don't engage her in a negotiation over them.

On another note - why are you seeing someone else when you're still M'd?

It will, if you're seriously thinking of restoring a relationship with your WW. If you're not serious about doing this, please don't lead your WW on by suggesting you'd be open to reconciliation if she do x, y and z when that really isn't on your mind at all. WWs can be evil, but that's no excuse for you to be cruel.

I went out with another girl because in my mind I thought it was over. Even if she said she wanted to work on things I did not think I would. I honestly did not think she would ever say that she wanted to try to reconcile, but here we are. So I agree, I should probably tell her something like this.

WW,

If you are committed to recovering our marriage and NC with OM, I will also stop talking to OW. However, you are not welcome back in the house until I am convinced your affair is over for good.

I still can't say for sure if I want to give her a chance. I have serious doubts...Even if she meets all my conditions. But part of me thinks that if she meets all of those conditions, then she is really serious about it, so maybe I should at least give her a couple months.

I get it! She is having trouble with the OM and needs a new flop house! She is not committed to recovery at all, just needs a place to crash.

Dear Sally, I am not anywhere close to being convinced this would work so please don't plan on moving home any time soon, if at all. If you feel these are excessive demands then it won't work anyway. I am willing to give you an opportunity to prove you have changed, though. So far, there is no indication of that.

I agree I would have to end my relationship with Susie in order for us to recover. I would have to be convinced that your affair is over and that you won't be starting a new one. That is just a start.

Thanks, Ed

Mel - I sent a responded as you suggested...Here is WW's response -

The fact that I am willling to move back and start working on things should be an indication that things have changed, Eddie.

I am not an idiot. I know you do not want me back this weekend is because you are bringing **** back to the house after the game. I know you have BIG plans.

I think if we are going to start working on things we need to do it soon, before it is too late


Here is a little backround...I am going to a football game with a female friend this Saturday and WW knows this. She is obviously very jealous. It was only after she found out I was talking to someone that she was all of the sudden "willing to work on things" I am not planning on being intimate with this girl, but I kind of enjoy the mind game with WW.

Seems to me that she is more concerned with controlling me and who I see rather than truly working on things. Agree?

When I first posted my story in September, many people commented about how selfish her behavior was...not just the affair but other things. Others suggested she may have narcissitic personality disorder. Her actions and motivations here some consistent with that.

At this point I am very very close to just telling her to see a lawyer and lets get this wrapped up. The thought of having to give my wife a polygraph in order for me to trust her does not sound like a marriage to me...seems more like a prison sentence... But that is the only way I could ever believe her again after all of this.

Ed, she is not sincere at all. She only wants to bully you into ending your relationship. [and you shouldn't be dating anyway!]

You just need to nicely get rid of her. She is trying to drag you into a debate because she thinks she can bully you into compliance. I shudder to think what you would have if you let her come home now.

In fact, I would go into Plan B if I were you. How have you set up visitation? Does she see the kids?

She has a very entitled attitude.

You are right on about her attitude...I have said before that even before the affair, the relationship was very one sided. Me doing all the giving and her doing all the taking. I could count on one hand the number of times she initiated SF over the past five years...As a guy, that is one of my top ENs. I also have a EN for affection and she rarely if ever said "I love you" or gave me any signs of affection. If anyone was being neglected in the marriage, it was me!

Af far as Plan B, she does see the kids. It would be extremely difficult for me to go completely dark because of our work schedules and her seeing the kids.

However, I am leaning more towards plan D at this point. She has yet to demonstrate any mature insight into her behaviors. Still says she was neglected because I never bought her flowers...The thought of polygraphs in my marriage also does not appeal to me!!

This is just all so tough...

Ed, I would consider going dark in Plan B, which is complete and total no contact with her. All necessary contact would be conducted through an intermediary. This way you wouldnt have to tolerate her demanding tirades. That will wear you down. An IM could screen out her little manipulative ploys and test her sincerity so you wouldn't have to listen to it. You would have to choose a very savvy IM would remain neutral and could deal with her manipulations in a neutral way.

If you decide to do that, you would want to close this puppy down with a plan B letter telling her not to contact you directly anymore. And she will go nuts when you do that because I can tell she is getting upset at the realization that she can't control you anymore.

Otherwise you are going to have put up with her abusive, manipulative tirades forever.

Think on that and let me know your thoughts. Here is a plan B letter that could be altered to suit your situation. Take out the lovey part and add your conditions, making it clear that reconciliation is not a sure thing, but a possible consideration only.

Dearest WW,
It is with the heaviest of hearts that I write you this letter. I am saddened by what has become of us, our friendship, our marriage. This letter is written to you as a necessity. Allow me to explain.

The eight years that we have been together were filled with an endless number of hugs, smiles, tears and laughs. I have loved you every minute of every day that we have spent together.

I realize that I have not been a perfect husband to you. I see now that both my attitude and financial irresponsibility drove a wedge into our marriage. I apologize to you. You must know that I never intended to hurt you or push you away from me.

The pain that your relationship with OM3 and the relationships that you have had during our marriage has been unimaginable. Continued contact with you has the potential of destroying my love for you and I don't want that to happen.

It is because of this that I must insist that we no longer contact each other, until you are no longer involved with OM3 or anyone else. I ask that you respect my decision. In the event of an emergency, or any necessary financial matters, please contact your mom, and she will contact me. Once you have ended your relationship with OM3 completely, please contact me, and I will be willing to discuss restoring our friendship and marriage.

I am committed to our marriage. I believe that we can build a marriage that is stronger and more beautiful than we have experienced. Beginning today, I walk forward in life, and I want you to walk with me. I love you with all of my heart.

Your loving husband,
Ethan
******************

How could it be set up so you don't see her? How old are your kids? Some BS' will just have the WS pick up the kids for short visitations [and make sure you don't let her in the house] or have the visitation at a friends or family's home. It is not that hard to do.


Well, she is not serious, Ed. She is getting upset because she knows she is losing control of you. My suggestion is to go to BOTH Plan D and Plan B. Move forward with D but protect yourself by going DARK.

Plan B will be an awesome RELIEF for you. You will feel better than you have in years once you remove yourself from her craziness. In about 3 wks of that, you will be amazed at how good you feel.

I feel like I am leaning more towards plan D. I have yet to see any true remorse or insight into her affair. I am not sure I want to be married to her anymore...as much as it pains me to break up our family.

The thought of having to track her car with a GPS, monitor e-mails and cell phone records and random polygraph tests does not appeal to me.

I will continue to think about it, but at this point I am strongly leaning towards plan D.

The problem with her is that she is not willing to SELF POLICE, so any safety measures will have to be all your OWN. She will not protect you, Ed. I shudder to think what it would be like if she came back. You would be back watching her abuse up close.

Just received this ling e-mail from WW...I am not sure what to think anymore. I still will not agree to let her back in unless there is a demonstrated, serious change in her behavior. At least 2 months of NC and total honesty with me. And she would have to take a polygraph to prove that.

She references an e-mail I sent her last week asking her to come home and work on things. I was emotional and did not logically think about what it would take to recover the marriage. It does not make any sense for her to come home right now, but she is trying to use that against me.

Anyways, let me know what you think...

Eddie,

Please read this email that you sent to me only one week ago, which is forwarded at the bottom of this message.....

It is amazing to me how much you have changed your tune since then. what has changed? One thing....(OW). Now you don't respond to my messages or answer my calls.

Eddie I do not hate you. I think you are a great guy. We just completely fell out of love somewhere along the road. We became overworked and I have not been focused on the things in life that are truly important. I know that.

I do love my kids and hate the fact that I lose my temper with them and get frustrated with them so easily. I believe my anger and frustration stems from our broken relationship. Beleive it or not, all I want is to be loved and adored. I want a romance and love. I know that a life with two toddlers is not conducive to that type of relationship. It has been hard. And I know I gave up prematurely and did not try to work things out before I walked out the door. I know all of these things, Eddie. I have told you all along that while I have been out of the house I have been thinking about things, and that is the truth. I am willing to work on things if you want to. It is somewhat comical that because of OW, you have COMPLETELY lost your focus and are now, all of a sudden, completely unmotivated to work on things. Enmeshment feels good Eddie, doesn't it? Gee, that Colt's game sure sounds fun, and the night afterwards, it sure would be a shame to have to miss that and start working on my marriage now wouldn't it? Remember Eddie, like I have, believe it or not, it is just enmeshment and NOT REAL.

Everything I have heard says it is easier to fix a broken relationship than to start a new one (when kids, an estate, and family are involved). And I believe that. I do not believe it is a lost cause. I think if I quit my job and focus on the important things in my life (family, kids, school) then things CAN get better.

Like I said, I am willing to work on things, but only if you stop seeing *****. All she is going to do is distract you. It is up to you at this point. Like I've said all along, I am not going to kiss your [censored]. The best you are going to get out of me is my agreement to come home and work on things, and a commitment to change my attitude and readjust my priorities (along with your other list of demands, of course).. I would work harder to come up with things for us to do as a family to bond (bowling, ski trip in Wisconsin, weekend trip to Madison, etc) but I would expect things out of you as well. You cannot just hover over me like a dictator, you would have to be actively involved in making things better.

Just FYI, OM will be heartbroken over this. This will completely crush him, which I am not happy about, but I know this is what I have to do if you are willing.

WW