So my original thread appears to have been erased. It was under hurting32...but here is a recap.

About 2 months ago my wife slept with another guy. She finally admitted after I confronted her with enough evidence. In addition she has been having an EA with a different guy who lives across the country. THe connected on facebook and traded e-mails about how much they have missed each other and how they wish they could see each other again. So my wife claimed she that her PA was a ONS and that she had not seen the OM. But she would not commit to working on things. Says she has had doubts for years, has not loved me for years, does not find me interesting, blah, blah blah.

We have 2 kids ages 5 and 3. In general I feel like I have been a very good husband and father. My wife works and is pursuing a masters degree and I defintely do my fair share, if not most of the work around the house and taking care of the kids. Even her own family has commented about her lack of parenting skills. My wife would always complain that she hates this lifestyle and feels trapped. She is not a patient person and would often comment that the kids drive her crazy.

So about 3 weeks after she slept with the other guy, I went out and bought keylogger software. I found more e-mails to the ex-boyfriend about how they may be getting their "Beach vacation" together after all and how heavenly it would be. Then I also find facebook chat with the guy that she slept with. It was disgusting...practically online sex. So that night I went off on her. We had a huge fight and she left at 2 am. We talked and decided it was hopeless and that we should get a D.

4 days later she calls me crying saying she is not sure this is what she wants. She tells me she wants to try to work on things. Then, one day after we sleep together for the first time since all this happened, I catch her in another lie. She went over to his place and screwed him again. At that point, I tell her that I refuse to live with someone who is having an affair and that if she cannot commit to 100% no contact, she needs to move out.

So she has been living with a friend for 2 weeks and signed a 6 month lease starting in November. She also will not commit to no contact. So I have moved to Plan B. I told her there is no point on talking or seeing each other under these circumstances. She did not seem too upset by it.

I filed for Divorce last week and will serve her the papers as soon as I get them. All of my friends and family think I should move on. They all seem to think that I am too good for her and that the kids and I deserve much much better. My wife says we should not rush into a divorce. She is not sure what she wants. I told her this is not abot her anymore. She says that maybe she could make changes and we would work on things. I seriously doubt her sincerity.

I know she has no plans of being faithful while separated. So I am considering seeing other people too. My daughter has a friend with a single mom. We've talked about setting up a playdate and I am thinking about asking her out if she is not seeing anyone and interested. I feel like I do deserve better and feel ready to move on. Maybe that would be a huge mistake, but I feel like it would help open my eyes to what else is out there. I just feel like if I started to see someone else then it would pretty much seal the deal as far as a divorce. But I seriously think that would be for the best.

NO!

You are in NO position mentally to do this!

Your status IS still married no matter what a few ignorant others may be telling you!

You need to spend time without the additional confusion of engaging in your own Adulterous activity!

NO dating until you are divorced, and anyone that would date you given your current marital and emotional state would not be someone you would want long term anyhow!

Please think this through and think about long term goals, not short term sex!

I think you should wait for your emotions to calm down.

The general rule of thumb is to wait until you are actually divorced, because things DO happen, marriages DO recover and you do not need any more people muddying up the situation. Nor is it fair to this single mom to be presented with such a rollarcoaster of recent events.

Your hurting and that is understandable and yes, you probably DO deserve someone better. Just let a little more water flow under the bridge huh? You dont need to jump back into the saddle immediatly.

Tell us more about your plan B?

Who is your IM? Do they fully understand MB? Did you previously post your plan B letter? Did you save a copy and can you re-post it?

Did you do Plan A? and if so, how long was your plan A?

Hello,
I'm in agreement with everyone. Ask yourself what is your true motivation for asking OW out? Is it really because you are attracted to her and truly feel you are ready do start another relationship? Or do you feel you need to feed your ego because your manilhood has taken a hit? How fair is it to the innocent lady (friend's mom) to get involved with you in the state of mind you're in? Please take the advice here and think this through. Please question your true motivations here.

GG

What is an IM? Still trying to figure out all the lingo...

I did not write a Plan B letter. We discussed over the phone. I bascially told her that things are hopeless until she cuts off all contact with the OM and agrees to complete transparency.

Plan A lasted about 6 weeks. It was very painful given the situation and the things that were done and said. I know it typically takes longer but I could not stand to live with someone having an affair under my nose.

I agree that it makes sense to not date until D is final. What difference will a few months make, right?

You are NOT in Plan B!

You are in Plan C ...... Confusion!

I'm not trying to be mean, I just want you to gain some perspective. Your emotions are controlling you intellect and that is why I call what you are doing.... confusion.

You need to read Dr Harleys Plan A and Plan B information.

Re-read this all again.Link to Plan A & Plan B info

I have read Harley's SAA so I am familiar with the concepts of Plan A and B. I did plan A for about as long as I could stand it. I honestly feel like I should just move on...not just because of the affair but because looking back on it, the relationship was extremely one-sided. I did all the giving while she did all the taking, but continued to complain about her life, hating responsibility, being bored, etc. etc. I have serious doubts about if she can change those traits. I am not sure I want to take the chance that she will fool me again. She can be a very caring, sweet person, but as soon as reality sets in or anything gets tough, she can't handle it and says she needs to get away. I think her moving out demonstrates her character. She ditches me with all the responsibility while she takes 6 months to "figure things out" I need someone who is stable and I can count on in good times and in bad.

In general I have yet to see true remorse from her. She says she feels bad and did not want to hurt me. I think if she does decide she wants to work on things it will be because she misses the kids and the stability of our life together...not because of me. So I am skeptical. I have exposed to all her family and a lot of our mutual friends. Most of them tell me I need to do what is best for me and many have point blank told me to get a divorce and move on. They do not want to see me get hurt again.

About the OW I am interested in. I actually am attracted to her and think she is a great person that I would like to get to know better. I still agree that dating does not make sense at this point, but I see no harm in having our kids play together and getting to know each other better. If I wanted to boost my ego, I would go have try to have a ONS with someone. I am not really looking for that, although I can't say I would pass up the opportunity if it came my way.

At this point I feel like I am done and want to move forward with a better life for me and my kids.

I remember your story now. Plan B is to protect you from your WW's drama. You have no contact with her and get an intermediary to handle the communications that will only deal with issues of responsibilities. Your IM will filter the communication to protect you. In the meantime you work on you. You need to take into consideration your children. Are they really ready to see Dad flirting with OW (and don't think they won't figure it out.) Your kids already have mixed signals - don't make it worse. Stay away from relationships, heal yourself, your kids and get your life in order. Once you are a whole healthy person and the kids mental health are in tact - then you can pursue whatever you like. Be the model to your kids of what is acceptable behavior.

Gg

Gg

One other detail I forgot to mention that was discussed in my previous thread. My wife has caught herpes from the OM. Apparently she will need to be retested in a few months to know for sure if it is oral or genital herpes. She seems convinced that it is "only oral herpes and not that big a deal. Most people have this already." She has had symptoms or oral herpes and I guess the OM told her that is what he has. Regardless, this is disgusting to me and it is something that can never be cured. So she continues to expose herself to STDs, brings home herpes to her husband and kids and does not seem to bothered by this as she continues to sleep with the OM.

So that is another factor to consider in this mess. I think she is a danger to me and the kids.

I agree Ed. As you have realized, your first obligation is to those kids. I support you moving on and getting divorced. You cannot change her against her will. And if she ever does make a dramatic change, you can always consider giving her another chance.

An IM is your intermediary. The person YOU choose with whom your wife has to relay any needed information about the kids or the divorce. She has to no longer be able to even TALK to you or SEE you, while she continues the A. PERIOD.

IMO, that is the one and only chance she will ever hit rock bottom and suffer remorse.

In the meantime, it keeps you sane.

And no, of course you should not date ANYONE right now. In fact, it's recommended to not date for at least a YEAR after your divorce is final. If you go out with someone just to have some woman pay attention to you, and you get involved with her while you're still sorting out your issues (and hopefully finding out what part YOU played in your marriage's disintegration and fixing it), you'll just end up married to yet another unhealthy woman.

Do not do that to your children. Please.

My best friend growing up had been through seven stepfathers. Seven! And that's just til 7th grade, when they moved away (and her mom was in the process of divorcing that one). She was the most miserable, helpless person I ever knew.

Don't do that to your kids.

I agree 100%...she needs to hit rock bottom, and moving forward with the divorce is the best thing for me and the kids at this point.

I have also thought a lot about what part I played in our marriage falling part. I know that Harley says that affairs happen because one spouse fails to meet the emotional needs of the other. When I look back on things and even ask my wife about this, I can't think of what needs I failed to meet. I gave her love, affection, financial stability, conversation. The problem is that she did not want my love or affection. She even admits this. She says that something is missing and she even had these feelings and doubts before we got married.

So the only mistake I can think of is that I married the wrong woman...someone who was not the person I thought she was. I have tried as hard as I could for 8 years to make her happy and to make this work. I gave up a great job and career by my family so that we could move to be closer to her family. I supported her going back to work because she hated being a stay at home mom. We hired a nanny and a housekeeper. I supported her going back to grad school to pursue a new career.

I realize that I was too nice and this created a situation where she feels like she can treat me like garbage. So that is really the one thing I have taken away from this. I need to focus more on myself and less on trying to please others.

That's just her FOG talk. Don't by into the lie.

Remember that you aren't dealing with a rational thinking person. You don't know the truth because she is giving you all lies so that she can feel good about what she is doing OR she is trying to believe the lies herself.

My H did the SAME THING....THEY ALMOST ALL do the same thing. Please try not to second guess your marriage yet. Look at what you can fix TODAY....

I recommend you focus on what G-d wants you to do. Take care of your kids. Stay in today and don't worry about tomorrow.

Easier said than done.

You are very shrewd, Ed. I agree with everything you have said and believe you have great insight about your situation. Some affairs have nothing to do with unmet needs, and I would agree yours falls into that category. Mine was another. Your wife has some serious mental issues that make her terrible marriage material.

Another dynamic that was probably at play is that when she mistreated you, you allowed it to happen, which trained her to be a tyrant to you. Better late than never to start protecting your boundaries. She is the kind of parent who will corrupt your children in order to be their "friend" so I think you are wise to do everything you can to protect them from her. My father was just like her and he caused enormous damage to his children by teaching us that wrong is right.

So I am in Plan B and have been talking to my lawyer about drafting a final agreement for the D. The initial motion was filed last week. I am not really upset by all of this anymore. Is that typical for a BS in my situation. I do not really miss my wife at all. I am happy being by myself and with the kids.

I do find myself having feelings of anger from time to time. But that is more from feeling betrayed and cheated on rather than missing my wife. This is more than just about her actions from the last 2 months. I truly doubt that she is good wife or mother material.

The thought of a divorce does not upset me. I feel like I want to get it done with so that I can move forward with my life.

My question then...are these feelings typical of a BS in my situation I know every situation is unique. Given how I am feeling, should I push to finalize the divorce?? December is the soonest it could be final. I could always remarry her if my wife were to do a complete turn around. I just feel like she has so many issues and I see no hope of her recognizing this and actually doing something about it. ?

I wish Zen would stop back in---he was married to a woman who sounds a bit like your wife. Although no one is perfect and if you did enough soul searching you could probably find an time or two there were unmet needs, it sounds as though the issue lies basically with her--there is something missing within her that allows her to participate in a committed relationship. She will most likely do this again to the next man in her life.

Anyway, Zen had two small kids and a wife who did not understand the concept of fidelity. Once he decided to file, he did it and it all went through very quickly.

I found it a relief, like you, to be divorcing a complete "taker'. I mourned the loss of a dream that was never based in reality but did not miss my XW a bit. I think this is the norm in situtions where one has just become exhausted by the long term giving without getting uch in return.

A lot of BH's go through an anger phase six months from D day. The phase can last up to six months.

Plan A should be done as long a BH can do it up till six months. So being you can't do it any longer then time to plan B. Make sure there is total NC. That you are using a 3rd party to relay messages. 3P is to be a spam filter. Restating only the fact that need to be addressed by you.

Going plan B does not mean you have to rush for a D. Having a WW with Herpes is motivation to seek a divorce.

I feel like I have begun to heal quite a bit already. I have learned a lot about myself, the choices I made that led me to this relationship and what makes a good, healthy marriage.

I don't feel like I am rushing the D. I feel like it is part of the healing process and I want to move forward with it. I'm sure she will try to talk me out of it once she figures out what is going on. She knows I filed for D, but I think she believes I am going to wait for 6 months (the term of her lease) while she figures out what she wants.

ed, I don't feel like you are rushing the D either. I think you are in a situation where you have to protect your kids first. And I don't believe she will change until she sees you are serious about not accepting the status quo. Like you said, you can always remarry some day if she truly changes.

Good luck to you ed. I think I would be onto Plan D too. I'm with the "no" vote on the dating thing and hope you stick to it. Don't lose sight that you will always be able to say you were faithful in the marriage. Once you cross that line, you can never undo it.

Please be sure to put protections in place where your children are concerned. WW can and likely will expose them to all sorts of garbage as her life falls apart. She has no boundaries. Do not trust her to act appropriately where you children are concerned...spell it out and put it in print.

The other night I told my daughter that the reason mommy and daddy were not living together was that her mommy broke a special promise that she made to daddy. I explained that when people get married they make a promise and that it should never be broken.

So my 5 yr old asks my wife whe she broke her promise to daddy and says she was mean for doing that. My wife is pissed! Called me a fu**ing idiot (in front of the kids). Classy woman... I know. I am so done with her.

She says that she has talked to several people that say it is inapropriate to tell the truth to a 5 yr old and that I am turning my daughter against her. She is a piece of work.

She is still dropping by the house even though I tried to implement plan B. I know that is unacceptable in Plan B, but I really dont care. She is moving and still has stuff her. She also hung out at the house on Halloween when her family came over. I do not want to make a huge deal about it. Plan B is meant to save the marriage which I don't want to do. So I have been talking to her to arrange visits with the kids.

Ed, i would make sure she understands WHAT that promise IS, lest she grow up confused thinking that just breaking a promise is grounds for divorce. If you don't start teaching your DD that adultery is wrong, your W will teach her that it is RIGHT, i assure you. And she will blame the breakup on you.

Kids are screwed up by lies and adultery, not by telling them the truth. Dr Harley is a clinical psychologist with 35+ years experience and he advocates telling the kids.

As if your W cares a crap that telling the truth to her DD will harm her. That is an astonishing statement coming from a "mother" who abandoned her own child so she can chase men.

If anyone has links to any articles discussing the benefits of being honest with children about affairs please post them. I know pretty much everyone here agrees that this is the right thing to do. I would like to send my wife some reading material. Thanks!

Dr. Harley on telling the children:

This is a segment that is sloppily and partially transcribed by me that was on the Dr Laura show. I thought Dr. Laura made some EXCELLENT and profound points about the effects of lying to children about adultery. I don't always agree with her views on adultery, but she is right on in this aspect.

Dr. Harley, as many of you know, is a strong advocate of telling the children the TRUTH.

Dr. Laura show [4:25 min into segment - 5-15-08]

Caller: Husband had an affair with good friend for 2 years. Her H ws one of his "buddies."

Dr. Laura: Do you have minor children?

Caller: Yes, we both do

Dr. Laura: They are willing to hurt your kids? Why are they willing to break up the families?

caller: Basically, they said they are not "happy."

Dr L: So that is the explanation for being willing to hurt their kids? They are doing this to be "happy?"

What can I do to possibly help you?

Caller: I need to know what to tell my kids.

Dr. Laura: THE TRUTH. They are breaking up 2 families because they have decided.....

See, I am not of the school where you stand by and do pretend with kids where this is all ok. Because this is NOT OK.

The most important story is that this is NOT OK. sit down with your husband and tell him you are going to explain to our children, in a factual, non hysterical way I am going to explain to the kids the horrible thing you are doing to destroy their family. That you are "not happy" is not sufficient reason to destroy 2 families and I am going to make this clear to them because I want them to grow up understanding this is WRONG.

That is my advice. And i think everybody should be clear this is selfish behavior that is WRONG, vows were made.

Not being "happy" is something you work to turnaround, not something you destroy a family over. If both of these people were to hear this was going to happen they will have second thoughts.

DO not think for a moment you are doing wrong by telling your children this. It is your moral obligation to teach them right from wrong. EVEN when it demonstrates a parent has done wrong. The parent cannot be whitewashed and get away with that - THAT IS WRONG and that does not teach the children

I really hope alot of people hear this. Alot of ppl want to whitewash what they are doing. Kids should know that is your attitude.

But to tell the custodial parent: hey don't make me look bad for my own selfish gain is ABSURD! and is EVIL! We are going to make wrong seem ok. Kids will lose any sense of right and wrong. Kids will be taught that anything is ok as long as it makes me "happy." Kids lose any sense of right or wrong. "well, it makes me happy to use drugs" when I am 12 It makes me "happy" to get on my knees and give 4 6th graders oral sex. That is what they teach their kids.

This is what happens when you whitewash wrongdoing to make no body feel bad which is why I get called MEAN. I get called mean because I say the truth. "Its MEAN to say something is right or wrong; its mean to make somebody feel bad!" Its MEAN to say the truth. People get shut down when they get called "judgmental" when they say the truth. The intent is to shut you down. Well, I don't shut up. Kids don't learn important truths when they allow others to shut them down. We don't help our children when we don't say the truth and support them in saying what is right and wrong.

ML...I did explain that the promise was to share special hugs and kisses with daddy and that she broke the promise and shared those with another man. She seemed to understand.

I don't think my wife was worried about harming my daughter by telling her the truth. She made a comment that she did not want our daughter turned against her. Once again...its all about her.

When Should An Affair Be Exposed?
By Dr. Willard F. Harley, Jr.
10.28.09

Make sure you teach her the word ADULTERY and explain why it is immoral. My serial cheater dad introduced me to his OW when I was 4 and I KNEW something was wrong. I wish I had a parent who would have told me the truth.

Thanks for the post ML...I sent them along to my wife.

I said here is some reading material from some very well respected doctors. Guess I'm not the only f****ing idiot out there. Our kids need to grow up with morals and know the difference between right and wrong. Sorry if the TRUTH upsets you.

I know I am not doing a good plan B, but like I said before...saving the marriage is not my goal. D will hopefully be final by mid December.

I'd suggest not doing this. "Educating" your WW is not your responsibility, and trying to do so is likely to make matters worse. If you've decided that you no longer want to remain M'd to her, focus on getting her out of your life as quickly and cleanly as possible, except for any interaction necessary because of your child.

MIM, I think this falls more under the category of exposure to kids. I think when it comes to kids, that WS' should always be given the facts about how it affects kids and why it is advocated. They need to know how their actions affect their own kids in addition to knowing that others will not whitewash their sleazy behavior.

"ML...I did explain that the promise was to share special hugs and kisses with daddy and that she broke the promise and shared those with another man. She seemed to understand."

Age appropriate is not changing intercourse, banging or any other adult adjective to special hugs and kisses.

Age appropriate is saying that married people to not date other people. Mom has a boyfriend and is dating him.

If your WW has moved out then you can add that mom left to go live with the BF.

This is known as adultry and is wrong to do.

Would it be wrong for me to "educate" the OW with regards to the effects her actions are having on her 13 year old son?

Do you think the skank would even care? There is nothing wrong with it, but I doubt she cares. Waywards care about themselves only.

Been a while since i have posted...so here is an update. I still think I want to move forward with the D. I have not really been doing Plan B. Wife is still living on her own and seeing OM. I will see her and talk to her regarding the kids.

Today she asks me where I am with things. I tell her that I am not sure that I want to try to work on things. But unless she agrees to 100% NC, then I will not even consider working on things. I feel like she is looking for me to tell her I will try to save the marriage before she decides to have NC. She doesn't want to cut off ties with OM unless I have committed that I will be here waiting for her.

I have serious questions over her character and whether or not she is really good wife/mother material. I have a real problem with the cheating and lying and what that says about her character. She is still trying to place blame on me. Saying I did not meet her needs. She keeps mentioning that I would only get her flowers on our anniversary, valentines day and mothers day. I never surprised her. I think this is a load of crap. So if I brought her flowers every now and then none of this would have happened...please! I also reminded her of a time earlier this summer when I picked up flowers for her. She had forgotten all about it.

She also mentioned that I did not compliment her. Again I reminded her of several occasions where I told her she looked hot or sexy. She once again had forgotten.

I think her therapist is telling her that I am playing the victim and that I need to share part of the blame for this. I think the reasons for our affair had very little to do with needs not being met and more to do with her own issues and personality. This is what scares me and makes me think I would be better off moving on.

Just wanted to get others thoughts and insight. Thanks!

Exactly! She's trying to blame you for her sin. Someone here can correct me here if I am wrong, but I feel strongly about this. Adultery is SIN. Yes you two may have had marriage issues before her adultery. Her adultery is not a symptom of your marriage issues. It's SIN and has real life consequences. Adultery is not a marriage issue. It's a sin isssue that causes a marriage problem. You are not to accept blame/responsibility for her SIN. You cannot commit to trying to work on any marriage issues past or present until she commits to 100% turning from this SIN behaviour. So your answer is NO. You don't need to wait for her or prove anything to her. She needs to! Don't play her game of blame.

Just like you don't have medical problems, then neglect them, and then find something that makes things worse on purpose. No you seek help. Instead of seeking help she chose a path to sure destruction. Obviously if she isn't willing to seek help with you and stop this destructiveness, you need to walk away and let her whine all she wants!

Just an update on my situation...

I have been moving forward plan D. My wife is still living on her own and seeing OM. She says she really likes him...he is completely different than me. They have things in common...blah blah blah. I have blown up on a few occasions towards her out of anger and frustration over this situation. I know this is pushing her further away and I am going to stop doing this.

I met with the pastor at my church this week and he asked if he could speak with my wife. She is meeting with him this Sat, so we'll see how that goes. She also continues to see a counselor weekly I think.

Here is where I am looking for some advice and thoughts...when is it time to just cut bait and move on?? Part of feels like there has been too much damage done and that my kids and me will be better off in the long run without her. Another side of me feels sad over the loss of a dream and everything we had built together. I know my wife feels sad about this too. But she says things like..."If we got back togther, I would always be looking for something more..." "There is no spark or attraction between us" "The only reason I would try to make it work is because of the kids"

All my friends and family and also her friends and family think she has some major issues and that I should move on. But part of me thinks that if she could recognize this, and get help, then maybe we could make this work. I just don't know how long to wait...

In order for me to hold off on the D, I think the following needs to happen:

1) The affair must stop. NC for life...complete transparency
2) She needs to move back home
3) We need to start counseling together
4) She needs to take ownership for her actions and show true remorse. This is big for me. I know some say this is not necessary, but for me it is. I honestly do not think I contributed much towards the affair happening. It is mostly due to her own issues. I think her perception of happiness and love is completely distorted. If she can not recognize this and take ownership, then it is hopeless.


Just not sure how long to sit around and wait for this while she continues to engage in an affair...Any thoughts or advice??

Did you ever expose what she did - all of it - to everyone in her family and the OM's families?

I exposed to all her family and friends. They are all disgusted with her. I don't have a way of contacting OM's family. My wife is still mad that I exposed. She says this is none of their business and that I should keep the details to myself.

She refuses to take any ownership for her actions. She says she is "sorry she hurt me" but I have yet to see any true remorse or sorrow for her actions...she continues to have an affair, so that shows you just how sorry she is.

Yeah, I'd move forward with Plan D then.

That is kind of how I feel...it is tough though. I wish there were a way to make it work, but I feel like there would be a very high likelihood of a false recovery, future affairs and a generally unhappy marriage where my EN's are not being met.

Did you give us details? M how long? Kids? yours? hers? how many

how long has A been going on? Dr. H says about 2 years. Can you make it that long?

You know what? Why don't you reinstitute the Plan B, and work that through the holidays. Don't make a decision until January. Sometimes, being cut off for the holidays can have a VERY powerful effect.

But you will have to do a REAL Plan B.

Married 8 yrs. She has been having an EA for over a year and a PA with a different guy for 3 months. 2 kids together - ages 5 and 3. More details are in my original post on this thread. I had an earlier thread that was lost in the crash.

There is no way I could sit back while she has an affiar for 2 yrs. 3 months has been killing me. I want to get on with my life with or without her. I am going out of town to see my family with the kids for Christmas. We will see how she reacts to that.

Ed, I am pro-marriage, but in your case, I think you should move forward with divorce and only stop if she does the things on your list. There is a very small likelihood of her changing and if you don't move on with your divorce while the getting is good, you may lose the advantage LEGALLY. And your kids damn well need you to WIN legally. You are all they have.

My suggestion is to move forward and only drop the divorce if she makes a dramatic, earth shattering change. And I am not talking about a "promise" to change, but a demonstrated change of character. Even if that means going through with the divorce and getting remarried. You and your kids have too much to lose if you wait around for miracles or promises. Your kids need you to be decisive and act in their best interests. Your W has some serious problems and your kids need maximum protection from that.

Maybe you told me this, but do your parents know all about this and are they supporting you?

Move forward, Ed.

ML - yes my parents do know everything and are 100% supportive. I know they are hoping I will divorce her and move on but they would be supportive of me if I were to give reconciliation a chance. Slim chance of that happening because I seriously doubt she will commit to make the changes that are needed.

On another note, her parents and step mom and siblings also know everything and are disgusted with her. Her dad actually told me that I should "fast-track" this and move on. If that is not telling I don't know what is...

I'm curious...what are they telling HER?

I'm not really sure what they are telling her...I know her dad and step mom have not said much to her. Her mom has told her that she is making a huge mistake.

She will not listen to anyone else at this point. She says that "she just wants to be happy" and she does not think she could ever be truly happy with me. She is meeting with the pastor from my church on Saturday, so that should be an interesting conversation. I have a feeling he is going to lay into her with a heavy dose of honesty and reality.

So I gave it over the holidays and there has been no change in my WW's behavior. She visited her sister for Christmas so spending the holidays without me and the kids did not phase her. She is planning a weekend trip with the OM over New Years.

I am moving forward with the D. I talked to her yesterday and she says that she just can't see herself being happy in a marriage with me. Same things she was saying 4 months ago. The most frustrating thing about all of this is that I am a very rational person and I keep trying to understand her behavior and it makes no sense!!! I know I need to stop because it will drive me crazy. I will never understand.

She says that I am a great guy but that I was not romantic or creative enough with her. WTF? She needs to be "loved and adored" She also says that she never loved my personality...she just married me because I was a nice, good-looking, succesful guy and that I would take care of her. She acknowledges all I did for her in terms of working hard, helping with the kids and allowing her to go to school and go out with friends whenever she wanted. But she says she needed more. The OM showers her with affection, compliments, creative dates, etc. She just hated the lifestyle of having responsibility as a mother. Says she felt trapped.

All things considered I know I need to move on. She is a liar and a cheater who has shown no remorse. Oh...and she has oral herpes too...a present from the OM!! Nice catch, right??

It is just very tough. Part of me thinks that she will snap out of this and come to her senses. But in my heart, I feel like she is broken beyond repair and that I will be much better off without her.

It is just tough...she basically dumped me for a very average looking, somewhat overweight idiot who feels it is okay to have an affair with a married woman with 2 kids. But he has a "killer personality" she says. Like I said it makes absolutely no sense and never will. Oh well...time to move on.

If you feel like you want a D and that it is the best thing for you then, no one can argue.

However, rushing to get into another relationship is not going to be a positive step for you or ther other person.

Give yourself some time to heal and get your emotions back on track before getting involved with someone else.

Sounds like you are rushing a new relationship too much. If she is there now, she will still be there in a few months.

This is driving me crazy!! I am having a real tough time with letting go for some reason. I just talked to my wife and she said she would think about talking to Dr. Harley. At first she said no way, that there was no point. She says she used to love me, but at some point the switch was turned off and she doesn't think it can ever be turned on again. I explained that Dr Harley has helped hundreds of couples fall in love again and she said she would think about it.

Then I get off the phone and ask myself what the hell am I doing. I know she can be a good person. But then again, she can be selfish and lazy. She runs away from responsibility or anything in life that is difficult. I just don't know what to think anymore.

When I step back and assess the situation logically, I tell myself to move on. Everyone...my friends and family, even her family tells me to move on. Maybe my feelings are just normal for someone who is nearing a divorce and has 2 wonderful kids involved. I think a call with Dr Harley is worth a shot...maybe I am just hoping for a miracle that will never happen???

I just don't want to prolong the inevitable. Recovering from this would take a lot of work on both sides and I just don't think she has it in her. It is the loss of a dream and our life together which is tearing me up.

I know she wants me to send her flowers, cards or anything to show that I am fighting for her. I have not done any of this since she moved out and continued her affair. I told her the affair needs to stop, but she wants me to show her why she should come back to me. She feels like I am degrading her and placing all the blame on her, so that is why she wants nothing to do with me and thinks there is no hope for us.

Part of me thinks that my feelings are normal and I just need to deal with them and move on. But there is also a part of me that is still hoping that she will come around. This is such a mess!!

Any thoughts or advice???

ED, listen to others, like her family. That is huge. Igot the same advice from my XWW's family, to get out asap.
These folks know her. They care about you.
When you are getting this type of advice from a WS's family, it is pretty clear that the WS is badly broken.
I bet these folks have been biting their tongues for years, hoping she had changed. She is damaged goods and you can start over with a healthy woman once you heal.

Zelmo - thanks for your advice! I feel the same way when I think about this logically. My brother in law told me that he was "tired of biting his tounge" and to divorce her and not look back.

I guess its just tough going through with it no matter how obvious a decision it is...

Killer personality? rofl.




yes SIR This sounds like good advice. I strongly suspect your WW has deep problems that she will cover up for the rest of her life

No problem, ed. I know this is not easy. Even when they are so badly messed up, leaving them is the death of a dream.
I have talked to a lot of BSs and you are really fortunate to have her family supporting you. I was, too.
But, it is rare. When these folks, the people that should be most inclined to view her favorably, tell you to run, you need to listen. I would bet they have been witness to all types of bizarre behaviors throughout her life.
She truly does sound like a woman with a personality disorder from what you describe.

Ed, unless she finds you unapproachable, she has not put any fight into the marriage at all. Marriage is work and she wants luxury.

Methinks that the only way that she will maintain that luxury is to continually start a relationship with people. She is a parasite. She is a vampire to your soul.

Soonest left is soonest mended!

Thanks for the advice everyone! Sounds like a pretty unanimous message...move on. This site has been great in helping me stay somewhat sane during this ordeal.

I really wonder if she has a personality disorder. Her actions certainly point that way, yet at times she can act and talk like a fun, kind, rational woman. I guess that people with disorders have the ability to fool themselves and others into thinking that they are perfectly fine. I believe this is my WW...

On a side note, she is continuing to see her counselor which appears to me a huge waste of time and money. The counselor is basically focusing on why she is feeling the way she is and placing blame on me. I guess I am the bad guy for being angry about the affair and pushing her away...please!! Maybe I should send flowers and write her a love poem. What a joke!

"On a side note, she is continuing to see her counselor which appears to me a huge waste of time and money. The counselor is basically focusing on why she is feeling the way she is and placing blame on me."

This counselor is a waste of your money. Stop paying for it.

This why we do not recommend IC's to waywards. These guys make a living out of people with a guilty conscience.

When I started reading other peoples' stories and asking myself some of the questions they had asked themselves, I too, began to believe my WW has a personality disorder. Prior to that, the thought had never crossed my mind. Before I get 2x4'd, let me say that (1) I am not qualified to make such a diagnosis, and (2) without regard to WW's condition, I still need to work on me and how I made it possible for WW to stray.

For the record, I am the 4th H my WW has left. I don't believe she had A's before, but at this point, anything is possible. She also has a shaky work history, terrible financial irresponsibility and a seeming complete lack of conscience. I could not understand many of her behaviors pre-A, and it wasn't until I started researching that I found some closure.

I found this site helpful as well as this one. If you think your WW has a personality disorder, I urge you to check these and others out. But remember: diagnosis must be made by a qualified person.

Fred, I bet if you dug deep enough, you'd find she has cheated before in past relationships. Her ExH dislikes her, right? And, she did not get the kids.
These folks don't just suddenly start cheating at age 44.
It is probably best to just let it go. But, if you did some research, talking to people that knew her before you arrived, I bet you'd find infidelity in her past.

Maybe, Zelmo. But I'm not going to waste the energy. As someone (SugarCane?) cited her recently (and the following supported by the Stepfamilies of America):
So there's no question in my mind where she's headed...

Ed, let her speak to Dr Harley. But don't stop your plans to divorce. Stick with your plan while you have the advantage - for the sake of your kids - and only stop if she makes a dramatic change. "Thinking about talking to Dr HArley" is NOT a dramatic and heartfelt change. That is bullcrap. It is no more significant than the falling down drunk who is "thinking about switching to gin." Whatevah!

I would strongly suggest you go into Plan B before she drives you crazy with this bullcrap. She will keep you dragged into her sick crap with these crumbs. If you go into Plan B you won't be disturbed by anything other than the REAL DEAL.

If you want to do that, I can help you with a plan.

Plan B is a life/sanity saver. Gets you away from their abuse. Plan D does, as well, when you are ready.
IMO, no one should consider staying in a marriage with someone who is not 100% committed to accepting all responsibility for the decison to cheat and who is willing to really do the hard wokr to restore the marriage. No fence sitters should be allowed to continue in their marriages.

I know its hard and I can relate seriuosly. Even if you move on please come here and read. You will see that others go through the same things and that there is hope.

You are probably going to get blamed by her counselor. I wouldn't worry about that because the counselor will have to parent this WW now. For all you know WW is spinning a tale about you. That is common also so don't feel alone.

The importaat thing is that you now can be free of the lies and taking the blame for her problems.

Ed --

Showering her with flowers, compliments, and poetry is NOT an appropriate response to a spouse who is having an affair. Anger is.

And expecting a betrayed spouse to beg, bargain, and jump through hoops is not an appropriate expectation for someone who CHEATED.

Her thought processes are very very screwy.

Your boundries are very reasonable and specific. Leave her with those and step away.

I understand how badly you want your family intact. It seems to me that you are grieving the loss (even tho there is a very logical side to you that understands it might be best...)

So maybe the most help for you would be to understand the grieving process, because it seems like you are stuck in the bargaining phase. Because there is no reason at all to keep having these relationship talks with an active wayward who keeps regurgitating her foggy justifications to you. It almost seems like you are somewhat buying-in to her idea that you should somehow prove yourself to her. (!!! huh ???)

This is merely her way of trying to get you back into Plan A -- because she really liked having both a husband AND a boyfriend.
This is NOT because she is going to make a choice between you!
That is what you really need to understand. You won't win. Its not a competition between you and OM on who can shower her with the BEST compliments or the PRETTIEST flowers, or the FUNNEST dates and then she chooses. She wants BOTH. Indefinetly.

Until one of you regains his dignity and walks away. Instead of playing that game, keep your dignity NOW and walk away.
She has MASSIVE changes to make in her mentality, behavior, and character. She's not good enough for you.

Ed, go check out Dr Harley's newsletter titled When to Call it Quits. Here is an excerpt:

here

I apologize for the thread-jack....

Mel, can you send me an email at ncwalker at charter dot net

I have a photo of ma I want to send you.

Here is a good laugh for you all..the latest comments blew me away...actually made me laugh they were so ridiculous!

So I was talking to the stbx about the pending D and trying to get that wrapped up. I had reminded her of my conditions for calling off the D a few days ago...NC was #1 on the list. She says that the D is the only option because she just does not want to cut either guy out of her life - the PA guy she is dating now and the EA guy she has not seen in 12 yrs. She says "if I wanted to talk to those guys on the phone or send them an e-mail I should be able to do that. It's not my fault you are too insecure to handle that and you would need to be watching my every move."

I could not believe those words came out of her mouth. I was quick to remind her that her having these "friends" led to this mess. She is unreal....

you are so "insecure!!"

I needed some advice with the latest...I had a feeling this moment would come. My W tells me that she has been thinking about things and thinks maybe there is hope. She asks if I still wanted her to come home if she were willing to go NC.

I had told myself I was moving on and would be happier without her. I am questioning her motivation with all this. Is she just finally realizing everything she is giving up and having second thoughts? I have a couple questions...

Given all that has happened and everything that she said (has not loved me in years, has zero sexual attraction to me, feels neglected, hates my family, finds me boring, etc) should I consider working on things? I am afraid of false recoveries which would just be tougher on me and the kids.

She is calling me later tonight...what questions should I ask her to figure out if she is really serious about this or just feeling sad about losing everything.

Every single person who knows the situation has told me to move on. They all say I deserve better and will be happier in the long run...this is just so tough. I appreciate any thoughts or advice. Thanks!

I would tell her that you want to take it slow and ask her what her plan is for repairing the marriage. In the meantime, PLEASE make an appointment with Steve Harley and let him feel her out. It will be worth avoiding the worst hell you have ever been through in a false recovery.

False recoveries are worse than initial D-Days, Ed. Be very, very careful.

I honestly do not know if I want to try to work on things...not sure I can be married to someone who did this to me over and over again. Plus all the hateful things she said...I have serious doubts. She still says she hates all the work of raising young kids and it is way too much for her. I'm not sure that is what I want to be married to. I have a feeling we would wind up in the same place again...She feels trapped, hates the lifestyle, is bored, blah blah blah.

Please, for God's sake, get out while you have the chance. You can't build a life with someone like that, Ed. Think of your kids. You have a distinct legal advantage as it is. Please don't give that up. If she has a miraculous reawakening some day, then give her a consideration. But you and I both know nothing has changed.

She is experiencing ambivalence and fear, nothing more.

Mel...I think you are right. Here is something else that she said today which made me question her mental stability. I asked her to explain to me why she had the affair and what was going to change to make this never happen again.

Her reply...."I think you are so clueless that sometimes something major has to happen before you realize there is a serious problem."

So her way of letting me know she was not happy in the marriage was to destroy it??? Right... This will be tough but I can't let her back in saying things like that.

Get out while you have the legal advantage. After the D if xWW can go NC and shows see is ready then date her and go slow.

Let her back in?? IMO you should be putting as much distance between her and yourself as possible..!

Just talked to the wife for a while. I heard her out...Part of her reaction I think is triggered by jealousy. I had dinner and drinks with a young lady friend the other night (nothing happened but we had fun). So I told my wife this the other day and she immediately got jealous. I am also going to a football game with this girl this weekend, as friends. I think my wife pieced that together from our conversation and is pissed off about it. Says she wishes I would take her to the game. I reminded her that she is screwing another guy, and I really have no desire to spend time with her, let alone take her to that game.

Now she is turning the tables on me saying that since I met someone else that I am being a hypocrite by not wanting to work on things. Maybe I should not have told her all this, but I assured her that has nothing to do with my feelings.

She is still blaming me for this mess. She mentioned again about how I never "did the little things" for her to show affection. That she needs to feel "loved and adored" in order to have an emotional connection. So I asked her if I were to have brought flowers and given her cards more often, then we wouldn't be where we are today. She said yes, it would have helped. I don't buy it...

If you have read my story, I did major things for her. Gave up a great job to move closer to her family, supported her going back to work, do at least half if not over half of the child care (even though I work twice as many hours), supported her going to grad school. But I guess this is not her "love language" Also, she never did anything to me to show affection. She says that the guy is supposed to do that type of stuff and that I am unromantic and clueless.

Now all of the sudden when she is jealous that I might be moving on with my life, she says the she realizes it is normal for relationships to lose "the passion" or "the flame" as she calls it. I find the timing of all this quite interesting. I think she is thinking about down the road...I will definitely move on and another woman will be living in "her house" with "her kids" I think she is having a tough time with accepting that, so now all of the sudden, she is willing to work on things.

She asked if she should meet with a lawyer to move things forward. I told her I needed to think about it. Although, I think I know my answer already...it seems pretty clear to me. Agree?

What flavor did you say that cake she was eating is?

My wife called this morning saying she was up all night last night and asked if I had thought more about things. I told her that I did not think things had changed and that she was just afraid and jealous. She said no, that things had changed. I had to go, so we said we would talk later.

I find myself considering giving it a chance...for my family's sake. This is such a tough decision for me...Is it really possible for her to have come around like this? Maybe it is...Or maybe we will wind up in the same spot eventually. It blows me away that she says I neglected her. I was the one being neglected! I just don't know...

Ed, my H said the exact same thing after his first A, which was with a co-worker who was also our son's teacher...big boundaries crossing....
Now his 2nd A was with the neighbor downstairs, carried out in her filty basement which he rented from her for over a year so he could have sex with her behind my and son's back....So another major thing had to happen for me before I realized that, yes.,,,there is a VERY serious problem....with him, not me!
Ed, the pain would be to great for you to bear should you take her back and should she do it again in a few months or years...she has not changed a bit.
For you to take her back she has to act and feel different to you. But you yourself are saying that she is just the same. I believe you are right. D and then see what happens.
blessings

One you are still married and should not be going on dates.

Second you should get divorced. Tell WW she has OM and you are divorcing her. You need the legal protection of a divorce. WW left you which makes it good that you get the home, custody, and the WW will have to pay CS.

If you take WW back now then restarts with the OM, but refuses to move out your actions showed that you forgave your WW. Chances are the judge will give WW custody, the home, you have to move out and pay CS.

Third you would consider dating her and building a new relationship with her after the divorce when she goes NC with the OM and does all the things necessary to try again.

It's one thing to risk losing your heart again. Another thing to risk your physical, financial, property, family, well being.

Thank you for the advice...I need to consider the risks of taking her back, not only to my heart, but the risk of losing my house and kids.

Looking at things, I guess I still can not wrap my arms around why she would have an affair. Sure maybe I did not adore her and buy her flowers other than on our anniversary and valentines day. But I did not neglect her. If I could understand that she had legit reasons for the affair - unmet emotional needs, then I would be willing to give it a shot.

Nothing has changed though, Ed. She is trying to guilt you into letting her back in and is blaming you for her adultery and the abandonment of her family. And here is what will happen if you do. She will come back for few days, then start sneaking around with her OM [she hasn't even ended the affair for crying out loud!] and then you will be in the horrendous position of having her in the house while you endure her adultery and you won't be able to get her out. Judges rarely make the mother leave, they make the FATHER LEAVE.

Go read up in Surviving an Affair. The wife left for her affair, then came back and kicked the H out LEGALLY and she got the house, the kids AND her OM!

You need to move full speed ahead and get her signature on a divorce settlement so your kids are protected. Then, some day in the future if she has a REAL AWAKENING and actually walks on water, then give her a second thought.

But all you have here is NOTHING. NOTHING. A bunch of crap about how it is your fault she committed multiple adulteries and abandoned her husband and children is NOTHING. NOTHING. No remorse, no nothing. <----there is nothing here that should motivate you to give her a second look. Are you nuts?

Ed, go tell her listen, I will give you an opportunity to show that you have really changed, but in the meantime, I am moving forward with this divorce. If you end your affair and make some demonstrable changes, I might consider it. But until that happens, I am moving forward.

But the first step has to be that she ends her affair and she hasn't even done that. She is nothing but a danger to you and those kids, Ed.

I tell you what scares me about her the most and that is her exposing your little daughter to her OM. Your wife has no sense at all and couldn't be trusted to protect her DD.

I did have her sign a seperation agreement, which basically acknowledged she was moving out, and granted me posession of the house and custody of our kids. That gives me a huge advantage legally. I agree I should not give that up under any circumstance. Too much to risk losing...

Ed, if there was REASON to risk all that, I can see it. But there is no REASON. There is nothing here. She doesn't even believe she is to blame for her crimes, so you can be assured of more of the same. Do you want to have to watch this from your home again? Because that is what you are facing.

I agree...at this point, even if she were to say all the right things, I would doubt the sincerity of it all.

She told me last night "I am not going to kiss your butt if that is what you expect" Maybe I am off base, but I think she should be kissing my butt if she was truly remorseful.

Again, I think our affair was somewhat the exception to the norm. When we talk about unmet needs, all she can come up with is that I didn't do the little things...buying flowers, thoughtful surprises, make her dinner, etc. etc. In my opinion these are not real emotional needs. They are the needs of an immature child who has no grasp of reality. Maybe I am wrong...but that is my take on it.

I was going to send my WW an e-mail. I drafted it but wanted to post it here before sending to see what people think. Here it is...

I have thought about things too... Here is where I am. I absolutely can't risk being hurt like this again. In order for me to consider working on things, I need to see a serious change in your behavior. Not just words coming out of your mouth.

So here is what I was thinking... the affiar needs to end, for good. No contact ever ever again. No withdrawal. I would need you to end the affair and have no contact for at least 2 months before I would consider that to be a serious change in your behavior. Until that happens, I can not risk being hurt again. I do not want to attempt to rebuild our marriage unless I am sure you are serious about this and the affair is over for good.

If you have any contact with ****or ****, you would need to tell me about it. If I catch you lying about anything it would be done. This is about rebuilding trust and demonstrating that you are really serious about change. I am serious about that. If they try to contact you in any way, you have to tell me. If you have any contact at all with them, you have to tell me.

If you are on board with this let me know. If you have any hesitations or doubts, you should retain a lawyer and let us both move on.


What do you all think about this? Should I add anything? I would spy like crazy. I have a spare set of car keys of hers, so I would sneak over to her place and put a VAR and GPS on her car. Any lies to me and it would be over for good.

Oh no, Ed. That puts all the onus on YOU to prove her trustworthiness. SHE needs to prove her own trustworthiness. I would set this up completely differently.

Try something like this:

Dear Sally,
I have given this alot of thought and don't see any change of behavior on your part that would motivate me to change my current direction. Without a dramatic and heartfelt demonstration of change, I am not willing to take the chance. As it is now, you are not safe to me.

Some things you could do to show you have changed is to end your affair and end all contact with **** and ****. You would have to prove to me in a very convincing way that has happened.

Additionally, I would have to have a committment from you to change your lifestyle so this never happens again. For example, no more overnight travel, no more opposite sex friendships, complete openess and honesty of computers and PDAs.

That is what it will take to get me to consider anything. I will give you an opportunity to change and demonstrate those changes, but unless they are convincing, I couldn't consider it.

WHO is this?

There are 2 guys involved...one was an EA over the phone, facebook, texts. He lives 2000 miles away so I'm pretty sure it was just a long distance EA, but would have become a PA if possible. Then there is the PA guy she has been seeing the last 5 months. NC would apply to both.

Mel - one thing that could be a problem would be the requirement for no overnight travel. She has business meetings with her job that are required. Not sure that would be realistic...

I think she also needs to understand the repercussions of lying to me again. I would spy on her without telling her. Any lies would make me decision very easy. I have a strong feeling that she would slip up and lie again...

"I did have her sign a seperation agreement, which basically acknowledged she was moving out, and granted me posession of the house and custody of our kids. That gives me a huge advantage legally. I agree I should not give that up under any circumstance. Too much to risk losing..."

This agreement will mean nothing if you take her back.

"Mel - one thing that could be a problem would be the requirement for no overnight travel. She has business meetings with her job that are required. Not sure that would be realistic..."

How would it be realistic that you can trust her alone on business trips?

WW just has to get a new job.

I sent her the e-mail outlining the conditions for calling off the divorce. I stressed that I need to see a change in behavior...not just words. No contact, complete openness, hand over all passwords, cell records, no lies, etc. If she is on board and can demonstrate this over the next 2-3 months, then maybe it is worth considering.

I would defintely rig her car with a VAR and a GPS to keep an eye on her if she were to agree to this plan. I should hide that spare key at my place before she takes it away.

If you are REALLY considering taking her back (IMO I think that's a horrible move, but this is really your decision to make), then I'd suggest that you consider some sort of postnup agreement that protects you if she strays again.

WWs are evil creatures. I strongly suspect that there's some underlying reason for her wanting to come back that has absolutely nothing to do with rebuilding a relationship with you. There's likely to be some sort of personal gain involved, and likely at your expense too.

Great idea about the post nup...I just sent her another e-mail saying that would be another condition before she could move back in. I also added that she would have to be willing to take a polygraph at anytime.

I have a feeling she is going to read all this and say I am being way too demanding and unrealistic. We shall see...

MIM - I am not considering taking her back in at this point. I would want her to have at least 2 months of NC before I would consider. I highly doubt she will be able to do that. And if she does...well maybe then she will have made some drastic changes.

At that point, she would have to be on board with the other conditions...no overnight travel, random polygraphs, post nup agreement, etc. I really can't see her getting on board with all that, but if she did, it would really make me consider.

But you said in your letter that she is supposed to TELL YOU when there is contact. Did you change that to NO CONTACT?


I don't think its realistic to expect you can affair proof your marriage if she travels without you. That won't work so you would want to do something about changing it if you want this to work. Overnight travel is an invitation to an affair.

Yes I told her NO CONTACT.

The reason I said that she should tell me if there was any contact is about trying to build trust and radical honesty. If for example, she has a lapse and calls one of the guys...If she were to be honest with me and tell me, I might be able to forgive that. The clock would start over though in terms of her demonstrating change. But if she lies about it and I find out, then it is finished.

So here is WWs response to the e-mail I sent earlier today...

wow, this is all pretty demanding.

sure, I'd agree to cut off all ties with **** and ****, but polygraph tests, quitting my job, and a postnup agreement? F**k, you want me to live in a cave?

You do realize that I would want you to change things, too, right? And the same postnup would apply to you then, too. If you are going to play that game I would want the same thing in writing for me. Although I think none of that is necessary. If I were to come back that should be a sign enough that I am determined to make things work.

Also, if I were to agree on this I would expect you to stop seeing ***** during these next 2 months.

I was going to write you a sweet email, but after your messages, I'm not feeling sweet any more


SO there it is...pretty much what I expected. Too many demands for her. I should just blindly trust her again - please!! I don't think she gets the idea of the post nup. Nothing would apply to me...if we divorce for any reason, I would get custody of the kids and the house, unless the she could convince a judge that I was a danger to the kids. There would be post nup that appplies to me...

Thoughts?

"I'm back, aren't I?"

Typical wayward. Yes, you're back, but you blew up my soul so YOU have work to do!

I'm not sure you can post nup on custody issues. The standard is the kid's best interest and I don't think the parties have standing to contract away the kids' rights.
That said, I agree. She demonstrates no insight inot her behaviors. Run.

Translated: You mean I'm going to have to work at this?


Translated: I expect to be compensated for the loss of my affair partner.


Translated: I like the frosting on my affair cake to be chocolate, with a hint of mint, I should be rewarded for my actions.


Translated: Im entitled to anything I want, and your getting in the way of it all.


Translated: I was much more happy having a husband and a boyfriend, and this woman is making me jealous


Translated: Im going to use my anger to intimate and manipulate you, play along with my selfish desires or your not going to get anything from me.

Lol!...thanks for the translation. I will not budge on any of these conditions so I think I know where this is headed.

"Dear Sue, let me know if you change your mind and we will talk.

Take care, Ed"

RMX, good translation!!

I love it!!!

That's a GREAT way to toss the ball squarely back into her court. Ultimately, if she wants to come back into your life, SHE has to do the hard work, and it's clear from her messages that she's not considering this. A short sweet note like the above would be the MOST effective response in that type of situation IMO.

Do NOT lower your price for her admission back into the marriage. Don't settle for anything less than what you've asked for!!

Her wayward brain is trying to negotiate the best deal for her, not recovery of the marriage.

Wait and see what her actions are because even if she says "I'll do whatever it takes" it won't mean a hill of beans if she isnt walking the walk... KWIM?

Hi, Ed. I hope things work out well for you, whatever decision you decide to make. I have to admit, though, the idea of a polygraph test on demand kind of skeeves me a bit. Has a sharp tang of Big Brother Watching You about it. Even though I am a betrayed spouse, and in general approve of any measure that will make the WS be held accountable, the polygraph thing is just....eeuuwww! Good luck!

At first I thought the same thing about the polygraph...but you know what? If she is really serious about earning my trust and she is being completely honest with me, then she should welcome a polygraph test, right? It is a way of proving her honesty and beginning to earn my trust back. There is no way I would fully trust her without that condition.

The polygraph is awesome! I know marriages that have made it back from hell by passing a polygraph. And I know others that ended when more affairs were discovered. They can be very valuable.

EllenG,

I havent read all of your three posts.

"Doth protest too much" in regards to the polygraph.

Hi, RMX! It is not my place to protest pro or con about the polygraph. It is up to the people involved. I can only speak for my own gut feeling, which I did. People may feel differently, certainly.

People have done all kinds of high tech surveillance on spouses, some of whom were innocent, many more who are guilty. People just have to decide if the results are helpful or hurtful to their ultimate goal. I know of several people who make their wives hand over their panties when they walk through the door, and then send them for analysis for seminal fluid. I'll bet that knocked a hole in the budget, after a while.

And look! It is now my fourth post! I am really racking up the tally, here.

Well i think the poly has some merit, after all the WS did something that the BS thought would never happen.

Could save him some time and give his WW a chance to prove herself since "trust me" isn't worth what it used to be

You made me grin with that last sentence, darn you!

Ed, I think you really need to reassess your current course of action. Does our wife sound like someone who is truly remorseful and willing to put maximum effort into repairing the damage she has caused to the marriage? Does someone who calls you insecure for not letting her maintain contact with her affair partners and tells you not to expect her to kiss your butt sound like someone that you can trust?

Also, why are you even considering dating someone? You aren't even divorced yet and for that matter can't even make up your mind about what you want to do.

Edited to add: As you can tell from my post count, I very seldom ever write any replies to threads - but after reading how your thought process was going, I had to reply. You're setting yourself up for a world of hurt, and by dating people while you are still married you kind of take away any moral righteousness you may have had. Just because your wife is a cheat doesn't mean you have to be.

Yep.

And if she doesn't, you don't want her back because she has NO humility. Which is essential for recovery. She's still trying to control you.

I followed Mel's advice and wrote a very short reply to WW's e-mail from yeterday...basically said, if you change your mind we can talk. Until then, take care.

So here is her response to that

you just completely ignored everything I said and did not respond to anything I had to say. This is going to work both ways or not at all Eddie. Would you agree to stop seeing ***** immediately if I were to agree to all of your excessive demands?

I find it interesting that she is so hung up on this other girl that I have been talking to. Seems like she is acting out of jealousy instead of a sincere desire to recover our marriage. The day she found out that I had drinks with this girls, she tells me that she wants to work on things. hmmmm?

She wants to control me by telling me who I can and can not see. I'm not sure how to reply to this one. Do I tell her that she should just worry about herself and demonstrating that she has truly changed? Or should I tell her that I will not have any female friends either. That does not seem right to me.

She is the one who broke our vows and violated our marriage. In my opinion we do not have a marriage anymore...all we have are broken promises. Marriage is like a contract and she has violated that contract, over and over again. I don't think she is in any position to be telling me what to do...

"Sally, if you feel they are excessive demands, then it is obviously not for you. You wouldn't be able to maintain anything that you feel is excessive anyway, so it wouldn't work. I wouldn't want to put you in a position that felt like a hardship; I am not up for that.

And I am ok with that. I hold no hard feelings. If you change your mind, let me know.

all my best, Ed"

Ed, she is trying to negotiate the unnegotiable, so don't allow yourself to get dragged into that tarpit. A wayward doesn't get to set the conditions of her return. YOU DO. So don't even bother arguing with her about it. She can take it or leave it.

And keep in mind that if she feels it is an "excessive demand" she won't stick to it anyway.

She is not sincere, friend, so you shouldn't even consider taking her back. She is just ticked off that you are dating and wants to force you to stop.

Mel - so you think I should not mention the girl she wants me to stop talking to? I know she will tell me I am avoiding her question...whats fair is fair. If I expect her to stop her affair then I should also committ to the marriage.

I think its best to not even mention it. This should not concern her. This is about her making changes, and has nothing to do with me. I feel like maybe I should explain that to her, or is it better left unsaid?

Thanks!

Excellent!!!

So here is the latest from WW...

All I am saying is that I am not going to adhere to your demands if you are still seeing *****. If you will stop seeing them then I will agree to work on things and come home as soon as tomorrow night after my flight.

I was thinking about replying something like this.

WW,

You are not welcome back to the house until I see a drastic change in your behavior. This would involve NC with OM, complete access to your passwords and cell phone records and your willingness to take a polygraph whenever I want. I would need to be convinced that you were done with OM for an extended period of time before I consider welcoming you back to the house.

In the meantime, my personal life and who I see or talk does not concern you.

Thoughts?

Ed, I think you're missing one of the major points, if not THE major point, in ML's suggestions. Do not engage your WW in a negotiation over your own boundaries. No furher explanation is therefore required on your part. You've stated what your requirements are for her to come back - don't engage her in a negotiation over them.

On another note - why are you seeing someone else when you're still M'd?

It will, if you're seriously thinking of restoring a relationship with your WW. If you're not serious about doing this, please don't lead your WW on by suggesting you'd be open to reconciliation if she do x, y and z when that really isn't on your mind at all. WWs can be evil, but that's no excuse for you to be cruel.

I went out with another girl because in my mind I thought it was over. Even if she said she wanted to work on things I did not think I would. I honestly did not think she would ever say that she wanted to try to reconcile, but here we are. So I agree, I should probably tell her something like this.

WW,

If you are committed to recovering our marriage and NC with OM, I will also stop talking to OW. However, you are not welcome back in the house until I am convinced your affair is over for good.

I still can't say for sure if I want to give her a chance. I have serious doubts...Even if she meets all my conditions. But part of me thinks that if she meets all of those conditions, then she is really serious about it, so maybe I should at least give her a couple months.

I get it! She is having trouble with the OM and needs a new flop house! She is not committed to recovery at all, just needs a place to crash.

Dear Sally, I am not anywhere close to being convinced this would work so please don't plan on moving home any time soon, if at all. If you feel these are excessive demands then it won't work anyway. I am willing to give you an opportunity to prove you have changed, though. So far, there is no indication of that.

I agree I would have to end my relationship with Susie in order for us to recover. I would have to be convinced that your affair is over and that you won't be starting a new one. That is just a start.

Thanks, Ed

Mel - I sent a responded as you suggested...Here is WW's response -

The fact that I am willling to move back and start working on things should be an indication that things have changed, Eddie.

I am not an idiot. I know you do not want me back this weekend is because you are bringing **** back to the house after the game. I know you have BIG plans.

I think if we are going to start working on things we need to do it soon, before it is too late


Here is a little backround...I am going to a football game with a female friend this Saturday and WW knows this. She is obviously very jealous. It was only after she found out I was talking to someone that she was all of the sudden "willing to work on things" I am not planning on being intimate with this girl, but I kind of enjoy the mind game with WW.

Seems to me that she is more concerned with controlling me and who I see rather than truly working on things. Agree?

When I first posted my story in September, many people commented about how selfish her behavior was...not just the affair but other things. Others suggested she may have narcissitic personality disorder. Her actions and motivations here some consistent with that.

At this point I am very very close to just telling her to see a lawyer and lets get this wrapped up. The thought of having to give my wife a polygraph in order for me to trust her does not sound like a marriage to me...seems more like a prison sentence... But that is the only way I could ever believe her again after all of this.

Ed, she is not sincere at all. She only wants to bully you into ending your relationship. [and you shouldn't be dating anyway!]

You just need to nicely get rid of her. She is trying to drag you into a debate because she thinks she can bully you into compliance. I shudder to think what you would have if you let her come home now.

In fact, I would go into Plan B if I were you. How have you set up visitation? Does she see the kids?

She has a very entitled attitude.

You are right on about her attitude...I have said before that even before the affair, the relationship was very one sided. Me doing all the giving and her doing all the taking. I could count on one hand the number of times she initiated SF over the past five years...As a guy, that is one of my top ENs. I also have a EN for affection and she rarely if ever said "I love you" or gave me any signs of affection. If anyone was being neglected in the marriage, it was me!

Af far as Plan B, she does see the kids. It would be extremely difficult for me to go completely dark because of our work schedules and her seeing the kids.

However, I am leaning more towards plan D at this point. She has yet to demonstrate any mature insight into her behaviors. Still says she was neglected because I never bought her flowers...The thought of polygraphs in my marriage also does not appeal to me!!

This is just all so tough...

Ed, I would consider going dark in Plan B, which is complete and total no contact with her. All necessary contact would be conducted through an intermediary. This way you wouldnt have to tolerate her demanding tirades. That will wear you down. An IM could screen out her little manipulative ploys and test her sincerity so you wouldn't have to listen to it. You would have to choose a very savvy IM would remain neutral and could deal with her manipulations in a neutral way.

If you decide to do that, you would want to close this puppy down with a plan B letter telling her not to contact you directly anymore. And she will go nuts when you do that because I can tell she is getting upset at the realization that she can't control you anymore.

Otherwise you are going to have put up with her abusive, manipulative tirades forever.

Think on that and let me know your thoughts. Here is a plan B letter that could be altered to suit your situation. Take out the lovey part and add your conditions, making it clear that reconciliation is not a sure thing, but a possible consideration only.

Dearest WW,
It is with the heaviest of hearts that I write you this letter. I am saddened by what has become of us, our friendship, our marriage. This letter is written to you as a necessity. Allow me to explain.

The eight years that we have been together were filled with an endless number of hugs, smiles, tears and laughs. I have loved you every minute of every day that we have spent together.

I realize that I have not been a perfect husband to you. I see now that both my attitude and financial irresponsibility drove a wedge into our marriage. I apologize to you. You must know that I never intended to hurt you or push you away from me.

The pain that your relationship with OM3 and the relationships that you have had during our marriage has been unimaginable. Continued contact with you has the potential of destroying my love for you and I don't want that to happen.

It is because of this that I must insist that we no longer contact each other, until you are no longer involved with OM3 or anyone else. I ask that you respect my decision. In the event of an emergency, or any necessary financial matters, please contact your mom, and she will contact me. Once you have ended your relationship with OM3 completely, please contact me, and I will be willing to discuss restoring our friendship and marriage.

I am committed to our marriage. I believe that we can build a marriage that is stronger and more beautiful than we have experienced. Beginning today, I walk forward in life, and I want you to walk with me. I love you with all of my heart.

Your loving husband,
Ethan
******************

How could it be set up so you don't see her? How old are your kids? Some BS' will just have the WS pick up the kids for short visitations [and make sure you don't let her in the house] or have the visitation at a friends or family's home. It is not that hard to do.


Well, she is not serious, Ed. She is getting upset because she knows she is losing control of you. My suggestion is to go to BOTH Plan D and Plan B. Move forward with D but protect yourself by going DARK.

Plan B will be an awesome RELIEF for you. You will feel better than you have in years once you remove yourself from her craziness. In about 3 wks of that, you will be amazed at how good you feel.

I feel like I am leaning more towards plan D. I have yet to see any true remorse or insight into her affair. I am not sure I want to be married to her anymore...as much as it pains me to break up our family.

The thought of having to track her car with a GPS, monitor e-mails and cell phone records and random polygraph tests does not appeal to me.

I will continue to think about it, but at this point I am strongly leaning towards plan D.

The problem with her is that she is not willing to SELF POLICE, so any safety measures will have to be all your OWN. She will not protect you, Ed. I shudder to think what it would be like if she came back. You would be back watching her abuse up close.

Just received this ling e-mail from WW...I am not sure what to think anymore. I still will not agree to let her back in unless there is a demonstrated, serious change in her behavior. At least 2 months of NC and total honesty with me. And she would have to take a polygraph to prove that.

She references an e-mail I sent her last week asking her to come home and work on things. I was emotional and did not logically think about what it would take to recover the marriage. It does not make any sense for her to come home right now, but she is trying to use that against me.

Anyways, let me know what you think...

Eddie,

Please read this email that you sent to me only one week ago, which is forwarded at the bottom of this message.....

It is amazing to me how much you have changed your tune since then. what has changed? One thing....(OW). Now you don't respond to my messages or answer my calls.

Eddie I do not hate you. I think you are a great guy. We just completely fell out of love somewhere along the road. We became overworked and I have not been focused on the things in life that are truly important. I know that.

I do love my kids and hate the fact that I lose my temper with them and get frustrated with them so easily. I believe my anger and frustration stems from our broken relationship. Beleive it or not, all I want is to be loved and adored. I want a romance and love. I know that a life with two toddlers is not conducive to that type of relationship. It has been hard. And I know I gave up prematurely and did not try to work things out before I walked out the door. I know all of these things, Eddie. I have told you all along that while I have been out of the house I have been thinking about things, and that is the truth. I am willing to work on things if you want to. It is somewhat comical that because of OW, you have COMPLETELY lost your focus and are now, all of a sudden, completely unmotivated to work on things. Enmeshment feels good Eddie, doesn't it? Gee, that Colt's game sure sounds fun, and the night afterwards, it sure would be a shame to have to miss that and start working on my marriage now wouldn't it? Remember Eddie, like I have, believe it or not, it is just enmeshment and NOT REAL.

Everything I have heard says it is easier to fix a broken relationship than to start a new one (when kids, an estate, and family are involved). And I believe that. I do not believe it is a lost cause. I think if I quit my job and focus on the important things in my life (family, kids, school) then things CAN get better.

Like I said, I am willing to work on things, but only if you stop seeing *****. All she is going to do is distract you. It is up to you at this point. Like I've said all along, I am not going to kiss your [censored]. The best you are going to get out of me is my agreement to come home and work on things, and a commitment to change my attitude and readjust my priorities (along with your other list of demands, of course).. I would work harder to come up with things for us to do as a family to bond (bowling, ski trip in Wisconsin, weekend trip to Madison, etc) but I would expect things out of you as well. You cannot just hover over me like a dictator, you would have to be actively involved in making things better.

Just FYI, OM will be heartbroken over this. This will completely crush him, which I am not happy about, but I know this is what I have to do if you are willing.

WW

Ed - I think your new relationship is premature and it is messing with your perspective.

Not that I'm persuaded that your wife has an scant amount of sincerity - she doesn't. She's jealous and immature and still unwilling to look at her own issues with extracurricular relationships.

You're not clear here to have a relationship with a woman besides your wife. And it will harm that woman who doesn't deserve to be hurt - YOU WILL HURT HER because you haven't jettisoned the baggage with your wife. So go to the Colts game with a friend, or give the tickets away. It's just not worth it.

DITTO

I do agree, that if I am willing to give WW a chance to prove she has changed, then I should stop seeing this girl.

However, I am still not convinced I want to even give her a chance. I doubt her sincerity...and on top of her immaturity, and lack of remorse and insight, she caught oral herpes from OM...that disgusts me!

I thought I was headed towards D, so I emotionally had moved on. Now that WW, is saying she wants to work on things, I need to step back and look at things once again. I agree that I should put any other relationships on hold until I am actually divorced, if that is the direction I choose to go.

I'm still hung up on the last line of her email about how her moving back will crush OM.

HUH?

Hey... we wouldn't want to hurt OM's feelings now would we? Lol!!!

Things like that make me think I should get out while I can...

Ed, you do need to stop seeing this girl, but giving your wife an opportunity to show her changes should not mean that you slow down this divorce. You should not.

You told your wife that you would consider giving her chance IF she made those changes. You did not tell her that you would let her move back in if she made empty promises. And that is all this is. Empty promises to manipulate you.

You are in a terrible predicament right now because you do continue to harbor feelings for your W so when she throws a nothing crumb your way, you crumble. And I fully understand this. This is why you need to just end this now with a Plan B letter and STOP THIS.

You DO NOT have to explain or justify yourself to her. I would end this now and stop this debating. Your life is not up for negotiation or debate.

Tell her that her emails have convinced you that nothing has changed. Until she demonstrates some meaningful changes over time, you are not going to discuss or debate it, much less consider reconciliation. If reconciliation happens, it will be a slow process based on demonstrated changes, not a hasty decision based on promises.

wow, that is an appealing offer! NOT!!

She still thinks that she can negotiate the terms of her return, Ed. She is not sincere and will only come back and hurt you, hurt your kids and destroy your current legal advantage. '

Take a pass, friend!

Pot calling the kettle black. Ed should not be dating while still married until divorce is final.

When Melody spends a lot of time posting on a thread like yours it means she is concerned about the BS welbeing.
You can get hurt again by your WW, lose your kids and your home. She is really selfish and no way close to wanting to R the M and make the necessary changes. And the language she uses...says it all. Plus..oral herpes...please!
Divorce her and then date whomever you want. If I were you she would have to walk on water before I took her back.
BUT the funny thing about us BS is that we really do not see how messed up the WS are! Everybody does but us. We still love them (or so we think) so as soon as they give us a carrot we think we have hope...we can be so easily fooled!
blessing

Ed, I don't think there have been as many people shouting at you to open your eyes since I arrived just a few months ago.

I didn't want to listen to them, at first. I loved my wife: She was beautiful, loving, attentive, sexy -- everything I wanted.

Except that she had flaws and disorders a mile long and a yard high, and I chose to ignore them. People here kept saying, "Wake up, Fred. WAKE THE F UP!!!"

Finally, I woke up.

The people here held my hands, worked with me to try to recover my marriage all the while telling me, "This is a bad idea, Fred."

It was a bad idea.

My WW finally took her leave. She bailed on me, showing pettiness, and many sides of her I had not seen (but other had) before.

Today, not even a week out from the last bombardment, I'm finally sleeping again. I find I'm able to laugh again. I'm looking forward to things to come in my life.

Perhaps the most painful thing in my life today is coming here and reading other peoples' stories. Given the horror shows that are written here every day, I count myself lucky and blessed that I got away lightly.

It's your call, Ed. Go back and read through your entire thread (I did -- twice). You might find it quite enlightening. Then, maybe you'll be in a better place to make a decision...

Hmm... incurable STD? That would be a no-brainer for me - it's D-time IMO.

Ditto, shes just coming back because her safety blanket (you) is seemingly being yanked away from her by this (ow).

Ill wiki oral herpes, but it sounds like shes damaged goods, she might have other STD's you dont know about.

yep...incurable

Herpes viruses establish lifelong infections and the virus cannot currently be eradicated from the body. Treatment usually involves general-purpose antiviral drugs that interfere with viral replication, reducing the physical severity of outbreak-associated lesions and lowering the chance of transmission to others. Studies of vulnerable patient populations have indicated that daily use of antivirals such as acyclovir and valacyclovir can reduce HSV-2 shedding by 60-80% and cut HSV-2 transmission risk in half.[4]

In vitro research has indicated that Aloe Vera may be effective against genital herpes.[27]

Research into a vaccine is ongoing. Efforts to develop an effective vaccine have so far been hampered by the many adaptations of HSVs to their human hosts during an evolutionarily ancient relationship.[4]

Tell her:
You know what? I'm tired of dealing with a 12-year-old. I'll move forward with the divorce. You go find yourself a high school stud.

Thanks for the laugh cat...I feel the same way the more I think about this. The quotes are unreal.

Her issues are a result of our broken relationship, which is of course all my fault. She just wants to be "loved and adored" If only I had known...a few flowers every now and then and some flirty text messages would have made everything better. She had the nerve to actually tell me how romantic OM was that he speaks to french to her...she doesn't even know french!! Please...

I spoke with her a little while ago and she said that unless she comes back to the house, this will not work. She is just jealous and trying to control me. I stood my ground and said this is not negotiable and that I am moving forward with the divorce unless a miracle happens. She then proceeded to go back to saying how clueless I was...I knew that things were bad, neglected her, am unromantic, blah blah. No change at all here! Good riddance...

That sounds so familiar. I busted out laughing reading it. My fwxw said the same thing. The french part was hillarious...DUDE

Ed,

I just finished reading your thread. I was married to someone just like your WW. Click on "notify" at the bottom of the thread and let the mods know I can have your email. I can talk to you offline with details.

The general details are this:

My ex is EXACTLY like yours, with the exception of the loss of patience for the kids. That's taken care of by letting others care for them.

The words about being loved and adored show a massive level of immaturity and expectations about marriage and relationships. She's in love with being in love and doesn't understand that true love comes AFTER those butterflies have left.

Like you, I was chastised for not being romantic enough or attentive enough and like you I was told that the OM she had a one night fling with told her all the things she was starving to hear.

Like you I was yelled at for seeing a female friend of mine AFTER our D.

Right now jealousy is at play for her.

I advise you very strongly to not date romantically right now. You're fence sitting on divorce and if you sleep with this other woman you will have added fuel to the fire. If she's truly just a friend, then keep it that way for now until you are 100% certain the divorce will proceed.

It has been 4 years since my D. It took time for me to heal, but I have and I went through phazes where I dated a ton, then didn't date. Not dating was very helpful in my healing process and I needed it.

My gut is telling me that your WW had some form of sexual abuse as a child. She has many of the symptoms in your descriptions of her and her ideas regarding love and attention.

That is something not easily fixed. If it's not sexual abuse, then there is very likely a personality disorder at play, but those are even harder to fix.

I'm now 4 years on and have been dating a very mature woman, who is on her own with her own career, and who is as much a giver as I am. We balance each other and I WANT to do things for her and give her flowers and be romantic because it isn't demanded of me. It is simply something I wish to do (which reminds me that I haven't done it in a few months and need to do it again).

I have recently seen my ex with her bf and she has him trained well. I was him once and did all the same stuff. I finally saw him and realized that he is how others saw me and some had the guts enough to tell me.

I'm very grateful that I'm no longer sentenced to that life of caring for a person that is THAT needy.

For Melodylane to advise you that this woman is broken and that the amount of work to fix her is massive says a lot. There's no bigger champion of saving marriages on this board than Melodylane.

The final thought is that you CANT fix her at all. The change needs to come from her and the fact that she cheated on you really puts the ball in her court to do the hard work which she is clearly unwilling to do. From her perspective, she is the victim who sought attention elsewhere because you weren't attentive enough so it is truly your fault, not hers, that she cheated. She's likely to forever see it this way.

Talk to me offline and I can give you more specific details, but your WW is broken and has massive issues you'll never be able to fix.

helpforlostdads, please email me at revera01@aol.com to complete the email exchange.

Thanks

So WW met with a lawyer last week and I think is having second thoughts about D. She sends me an e-mail yesterday asking if I am 100% sure this is what I want and if it is really hopeless. I explained that I never wanted a D, but this is the situation we are in and as it stands right now I feel it is hopeless. Her A is not even over.

However she says she would be willing to end the A, if I would committ to working on things too. There is no way I would ever consider letting her back into the house right now. I actually kind of wish she would just sign the papers so that this could be over.

But I am still feeling conflicted. I did not want our family to be blown up like this. But based on everything that has happened and the things she has said, I do not want to be married to her anymore. She still makes comments about how she hates the lifestyle of raising a family, and just wants her freedome. I feel like it would take a miracle for her to change.

So part of me feels like telling her that this is hopeless and that we should go our seperate ways. I feel like she has very deep issues that she may never confront and deal with. Her A was not your typical A about unmet emotional needs. Her umnet needs were those of a 14 yr old girl - those of you that have read my thread will know what I mean. I guess I am having a tough time pulling the trigger...still holding onto a glimmer of hope.

But even if she does demonstrate a change in her behavior...ending her affair and demonstrating some mature insight into her actions and our marriage, I would be very skeptical...it could just be temporary changes in behavior, and then I am back in the same situation a year or two from now.

I guess the question is...how do you know for sure that it is hopeless and I am dealing with someone who is broken beyond repair? This has been so tough and I feel like D would give me closure. I just don't want to rush it or give up to early. Thanks.

You can't get guarantees. Not happening.

You can increase your odds for recovery by getting the WW to do the following.

NC with the OM.

Move away from any OM that lives close by.

Writes an NC letter that you get to approve and you send.

Lives transparent. GPS cell phone. All passwords to comp and cell.

Reveals how she contacted OM and remove those methods.

Gets new email and phone no.

Answers all questions about affair.

You both counsel with the Harleys to improve yourselves and the marriage.

Other's may remember whatever I have left out.

Is WW living with the OM now?

Call her tell her she has to do this now. No fence sitting, no keeping you as a back up plan.

Ed,

You know what's I've said on your situation. Her issues are much deeper than what she thinks they are. Her need for love and attention, her complete lack of remorse, and her constant need for teenage level attention shows a massive amount of issues which will take years of therapy to fix.

This woman will break your heart again if her psych issues aren't fixed. This is not a woman who has had a normal marriage where she embraced motherhood and you and then fell by the wayside. This woman was broken well before you married her and her immaturity and psych issues won't go away. The complete lack of remorse from her tells me that she's manipulating you for as long as necessary until she can discard you.

I agree that her issues are much deeper than she thinks. I just talked to her and I asked her what changes I could make or what could I do differently. The only thing she could say was that I needed to give her little gestures of my love for her, such as surprising her with flowers or romantic dinners. She says this goes a long way in her mind. I just don't buy it.

She still shows no true remorse for her affair...Says she felt neglected and abandoned for years. However, she never discussed this with me. She claims that the affair was her way of letting me know things had to change...that I am so clueless that I would need something like this to open my eyes.

I do not feel that she will ever be able to recover with this mentality. I think I just need to be blunt with her and tell her that it is hopeless. Even if she makes changes, I would doubt that they were sincere and permanent.

Ed, this really is very simple but she keeps pettifogging the issue. You should give her another chance IF SHE CHANGES. She is trying to twist this into: "I may try to change if you do certain things." That is nothing, Ed. Saying "I might try" is not the same as making actual changes. You need to stick to your guns here or you are going to damn your self to a life a hell.

you have NOTHING TO LOSE and everything to gain if you go forward full speed with the divorce and just tell her if she changes, you will consider it. But, you are not stopping until you see some real change demonstrated over a long period of time.

She is a WAYWARD, ED, and what she is trying to do is negotiate the conditions of her return, under the false belief that she has LEVERAGE. She has no leverage, and negotiating with a terrorist is disaster.

Move forward, ED, and don't get distracted from your path unless and until you see REAL CHANGE. Otherwise, you will be WORSE OFF than you were before. You have no reason whatsoever to believe that anything will change.

WW came by the house last night to talk. Says she wants to work on things and is willing to cut off all ties with OM, commit to counseling and making changes. I am skeptical, but I actually hope she is serious. I do not want a divorce. I do not want my family torn apart. I think she needed to hear me say that there is hope for us if I see change. Otherwise, she felt like I was pushing her away.

I know I need to be careful about letting her back in. Right now, these are just words, not actions. I know I need to see actions. The first thing I need to be sure of is that she has cut OM out of her life. Then I need to see a sustained change in her attitude towards life, our relationship and the kids.

I guess one question I had is how do I know if she has changed if we are not living together. She is willing to give me all her cell records, e-mail accounts, etc. but she could still sneak around if she really wanted to. I guess I am looking for some advice on how to handle this. I do want her to change so that we can give things a chance.

She would have to figure that all out and demonstrate her trustworthiness over time. The worst thing you could do is take her back BEFORE she has changed, based only on an empty promise. Welcome to hell!

There is a huge difference between CHANGING and promising to change. Your wife wants credit for the latter, and you would be foolish to take back a liar based on a PROMISE. Her promises are worthless.

If WW is willing to give up OM tell her move back and Do everything she said. Hand over all passwords. Get new phone no. email, block OM, NC letter.

Tell her she must do this today.

If WW stalls, balks, tries to delay send her packing. Tell her this is what you want and will do.

I guess I am somewhat torn about the living situation. Living apart it will be much easier for her to continue her affair. But if she moves back in before she has made any changes then I am setting myself up for more pain. I feel like I need to give her at least a month living outside the house to demonstrate NC and some changes in her attitude and behavior.

Why are you even considering this when it is SO CLEAR she has not changed, Ed? If living apart enables her affair then you will KNOW she is not serious, don't you? Better for her to carry on an affair living somewhere else than with you.

Ed, she is not serious.

NOTHING HAS CHANGED! TALK IS CHEAP!!

Ed,

Melody is a champion of marriage on these boards. She tells people to stick it out long after many of us are advising for the BS to bail.

For Melody to see D as a realistic probability, even preferable, then that's something that should give you pause.

We are all for repentant waywards and want to see a recommittment to marriage. Your WW is manipulating in a massive way. She's telling you what you want to hear.

I was married to someone like her. She is broken, will continue to be broken.

That being said�..If she does commit to counseling, then you can and should get her an individual counselor. Meet with that counselor yourself and share your own feelings and theory on what you think is at the core of her problems. One of the things in the equation is her constant need for reassurance from men for herself and the possibility this comes from childhood sexual abuse. Identifying the problem is half the battle.

She then needs to see it for herself, be conscious of it, and hopefully deal with it.

Walk carefully into recovery, but never let your guard down.

Look for action, not words. Your children do deserve an effort to be made.

I agree that I need to keep her at a distance and be very careful. That being said, I would like to monitor her car with a GPS and a voice activated recorded. Any advice on the most affordable, effective ones out there??

Just spoke to WW. She told me she has cut off all ties with OM. It is over she says. So I guess now I wait and see. I have her cell records, e-mail and facebook. He has been blocked from her FB account. She is reading SAA and we are discussing counseling options. I guess these are encouraging actions, but obviously this needs to be sustained. It is all very very fresh.

She is coming over to the house with the kids Friday night and we are going to make dinner and watch a movie. I know I need to be cautious and go slow, yet at the same time I feel like we need to interact with each other so we can meet our ENs and so that I can see if she is serious about changes. I feel like if I ignore her and spend no time with her, she is going to be tempted to go back to OM.

In the meantime, I will continue to spy. She knows I have access to all her computer stuff and cell records so she would be a fool to contact him that way. I really want to get a GPS on her car and a VAR. I don't think she would ever suspect those and if she is lying to me I need to know.

Thoughts on the GPS and VAR?

Also place a keylogger on your computer without telling her.

When she said she is through with the OM where is she living now?

She is still living in her own place. I know that will be awfully easy for her to continue her affair if she wants. But many on the board here have advised that I should not welcome her back until the affair is over for good and she has demonstrated sustained changes in her behavior. I agree with this. If she is going to cheat one me again, better for her to do this living on her own. If she continues her affair, then obviously she has not changed and I am better off having not let her back home.

By George, I think he's got it!

I defintely need to step up my spying with her not living under my roof. Still looking for recommendations on a GPS and voice activated recorded. Or I could always just make her take a polygraph after a month or so.

I think a GPS is a capital idea !

Whatever you do, don't drop the divorce! I suspect that is the only reason she is doing this, to get you to drop the divorce because she knows you have her by the nads. If you drop the divorce, she will have achieved her manipulative objective and will soon be back to her usual crap.

WW came over last night and we just spoke a little while ago. She is dealing withdrawal...says she misses OM. They had a lot in common and so much fun together. I guess this is to be expected, right? At least she is telling me about it. I am trying to not be a jerk and just listen and trying to assure her she made the right choice. I think I just need to do my best to meet her ENs, so she feels like she did the right thing.

I am also still moving slowly and realizing there is a very good chance that she is not serious about recovery. I think she realized what a mess divorce would be and the thought of suffling the kids back and forth and me moving on with another woman makes her miserable. The problem is that there are certain things about our life together that make her miserable too. Part of me thinks that she is never going to be truly happy with herself...but I am willing to give her a chance here.

I am not dropping the divorce, but I think I need to put it on hold for the time being. I need to try to create an environment she wants to be around, and the threat of divorce I feel would just push her away and make recovery impossible.

Normal WW response during withdrawal missing her OM.

Sucks form the BH to have to hear it and not react.

But, why do you think they call it withdrawal?

You are making a huge mistake doing this before any changes have been made. The divorce should go forward until she has CHANGED. She has not changed. You have just rewarded her for DOING NOTHING other than make empty promises. The threat of divorce WILL NOT push her away. Removing that threat will endanger your recovery.

You are making a huge mistake.

Melody

I guess I'm somewhat confused by your hard stance here with ed.

I have read many of your recommendations and responses on this and other threads and I have great respect and admiration for your advice.

In this thread though I'm having difficulty understanding why ed's efforts in regards to not dropping the divorce but keeping it on hold are not sound. He has stated that he has all her passwords and cell records. WW stated she broke contact (Ed I would follow this up by helping draft an NC letter btw). I tend to agree with Ed that if he continues with the D this could indicate to WW that HE is the one that isn't willing to change.

No disrespect but can you explain further ;-)

Just sayin'....

I totally agree with the GPS...I need to know if she is being honest. I did some research online and found a GPS unit that mounts on the car, runs on AAA batteries and lasts a few weeks. You then plug the GPS into your computer and it tells you everywhere they have been. It was $199...much less than a PI.

I still think I should not push the D right now. I do not want to create a threatening environment while she is in withdrawal. I know that Melody and other suggested that I need to see actions. She has cut off ties with OM, sent a NC e-mail to the old BF she was having an long distance EA with, and has agreed to begin counseling together. These are all positive actions in my opinion, but this is just the beginning...I know.

I am interested in hearing what other actions should I be looking for on her part. At some point I want to see her make an effort to meet my ENs. This is tough while she is in withdrawal. I want to see a change in her attitude about our family...no more comments about how she hates the lifestyle and feels trapped. Anything else I should be looking for?

She did make the comment to me today that she was not sure she was doing the right thing...she just wants to be happy. She was happy with OM and had been miserable with her life with me. This talk worries me...but maybe it is the withdrawal and fog not fully lifting.

I bought one of those. It's called a GPS Tracking Key. It worked perfectly - I put it inside a plastic sandwich bag and fastened it underneath the rear bumper using the strong magnet it comes with. Even if the batteries run out before you can retrieve it, it holds the data it's captured up until then.

Integrates with Google Maps, provides time, distance, length of stop -- everything. Using Google Maps I could pinpoint OM's house -- right to the address!

Ed, I think what others are telling you is that you should NOT take the D off the table. It's the Sword of Damocles hanging over the marriage right now. If you back away, it will show that you are easily swayed.

This is not the time to be easily swayed.

This is most definitely the fog. Ed, remember: this is a marathon and not a sprint. She hasn't been in withdrawal long enough to be saying sane things. Keep the Plan A going, and have a lot of cookies handy...

His wife is a serial cheater who abandoned him and the kids. Ed, rightly, moved to divorce. Now that it is inching towards divorce and Ed is dating someone else, she sees she is losing control and wants to manipulate him to STOP. She is not interested in recovery, she is interested in stopping the consequences of her behavior.

As it is now, Ed has a distinct advantage in custody and possession of the home. If he takes the chance and allows her to come home he will lose that advantage and will have to deal with a false recovery when she cheats again.

In this case, he should not allow her back UNLESS SHE CHANGES. Just saying that she will GRUDGINGLY give up certain things is not "change." In other words, he should give her an opportunity to demonstrate her changes, but he should not abandon his protection or his legal advantage based only on the word of a liar.

He is being asked to abandon his protection based on the word of a very manipulative liar.

She is not sincere. You are headed towards a false recovery, Ed. This is why I IMPLORE you to keep the divorce action in place and do not stop UNTIL you have seen a demonstrated CHANGE OF HEART. She has demonstrated no such thing. This is all talk.

This is not correct. It indicates no such thing. It indicates that he is not willing to reconcile until SHE CHANGES. That is the stance he has to take here. HE should not drop the divorce under any other conditions. He is not the one who needs to change in the marriage. She cannot dictate the terms of her return, that is up to Ed. A WAYWARD does not get to dictate the terms of her return.

This is too painful to watch. I am stepping away.

Hunny, you can only point the way, the rest is up to them.

I guess I am struggling to picture what a sincere change of heart will look like. How will I know if she is truly sincere? How do we ever know? I guess I will figure that out as things move along...

In SAA, I think the WW comes home because her OM dumped her. In my case, WW decided to come home because she was upset about the thought of me moving on with someone else. Does it really matter why the WW decides to end the A?

The last thing I want is a false recovery. I will have her sign a post nup if I decide to allow her to move back. Her lease expires in March I think.

In the meantime, I will purchase the GPS and see what I find.

My issue with pushing the divorce is that we were days away from having a final agreement in place and submitted to the judge. So if I keep pushing it, we would be divorced in less than a week. I am not sure what changes I could expect to see in such a short period of time. Many have said that this is a marathon not a sprint. That is why I think it is best to put it on hold for now. She knows that if she screws up at all, it is over.

After reading melodys last post's I think you should let the D go through. You have too much too lose.

If WW wants to recover the D will not be able to stop her. It's better because if/when she slips up you can just dump her.

I guess I am confused...recovery is a long process. Right now she is in withdrawal. We were days away from having a settlement in place, so I'm not sure what actions or changes I could realistically expect within the next week to tell me to call off the D??

Trust me...I do not want a false recovery or to lose my legal advantage. I just feel it is the right thing to do to give her a chance to show me she is serious about recovery. I just don't know what more I should expect to see at this time.

Ed, do you have to file? Is there a time limit? I'm not sure what you're asking.

If you want to dissolve (for lack of a better word) the divorce proceedings, I think that's a mistake. If you just want to delay requesting a final decree, that's another thing.

I filed back in October. There is a 60 day waiting period before you can submit the final decree for divorce. I am past the 60 days, so at this point I could be divorced as soon as we both sign off on the agreement. We were in the final stages of negotiating the agreement and all major details had been worked out.

So I do not think it would be a good idea to keep pushing this process forward. I can sit on things for a while. Otherwise, the D could be finalized within a week if I pushed it.

I think I should keep my case open...and not withdraw my initial filing. I'm not even sure if I could do that. She knows she is on a very short leash and if she screws up again, it is over.

You lose nothing if you go ahead with the divorce. You can always get remarried if she demonstrates some real changes. That way you don't lose and she won't lose that opportunity. But you can't sacrifice your legal advantage, especially for the sake of your kids, based only on the empty promises of a liar. You have too much to lose, Ed.

You are ALL your kids have. You are ALL they have so that legal advantage is critical to their safety and future. You can't afford to lose that.

Speaking of Sue and Greg in SAA, remember what Sue did to Greg? She moved back in and GOT HIM LEGALLY KICKED OUT WHILE SHE TOOK CUSTODY OF THE KIDS. He was locked out of his own house while she brought her lover in to take his place. In front of the kids.

p.s. Dr Harley even recommends renewing your vows after a marriage has recovered from an affair anyway.

It's been a long day, Ed. And my eyes are tired from looking at the computer screen. So forgive me if I'm a bit balmy.

It seems to me you have two choices:

1) Continue to move forward with the divorce and file for final decree.
2) Delay the final filing.

What is the question? Are you concerned that if you delay your WW will think you're not serious? That you're a pushover?

Or are you worried that if you file for final decree that it's over and you will never recover your marriage?

I can't tell you what to do, but I'll tell you what I'm doing. In my state, there is a mandatory six month "cooling off" period. WW and I have a formal, signed Separation and Property Settlement Agreement (SPSA). [Which my WW erroneously thinks means we are "legally separated" -- a distinction this state does not make]. When the six month period is over, I have every intention of going to the court to file.

Because in my book, that's the time frame given her and us. However, there is nothing that says once we are divorced (if it comes to that) we can't at some future time, resume a relationship. That's not for me to say.

Right now, while she says SHE won't file, there is nothing that pulls her back to this relationship. She's burned just about every bridge there is.

So, in case you're wondering, the reason I'm still posting here on MB is because (a) I want to continue to receive the love and support I got from the first day I got here -- my story is not over yet, and (b) I want to continue to learn and apply MB principles to my own life -- whether or not that life includes my WW.

I hope that makes sense. And gives you some help, too.

Mel - I am not trying to be thick headed...what do you think about a post nup agreement if I decide to let her move back? Wouldn't this secure my legal standing? I would need to double check with my lawyer.

I just know that if we get divorced then it will be over for good....bridges will have been burned too badly and we will both move on. That is why I am hesitant to pull the trigger so quickly, especially since she just went NC with OM.

Ed, if she is really serious about making changes and committing to your marriage, she will do what it takes to make this right, including allowing the divorce to go through. Divorce would not stop her.

But she is not serious, is she? This is a show to get you to stop the divorce so you lose your advantage. This REEKS of manipulation.

Fred - I am worried that if I file the final decree it will be over for good. WW would never get over that. In her mind, going NC with OM is a huge action on her part to demonstrate she is serious. We will see if it lasts...

That is why I think I should just put things on hold and see how she acts over the next few weeks. I will keep the case open so that if she does not change or slips up, it will be quick and easy to file the D.

Ed, if it's over, it's over.

Why some people cling to something that should be let go is very confusing to me.

That is, of course, your choice. How will doing so change anything? It sounds like you are trying to control WW.

You cannot control WW.

At this point I am not sure it is over. I did not think she would ever end her A. I know I can't control WW, but I can give her time and a chance to prove she is serious about recovery. Everything I have read here says that recovery is a long process...a marathon. The first step to recovery is ending the affair. That step has been taken.

I want her to change and become a good wife and mother. I want to have a fulfilling marriage together. If we apply MB principles, this can happen. However, I am skeptical but am willing to give her time.

Ed, as long as you can keep the case open and she KNOWS you will resume it if she messes up, that should be sufficient. My fear was that you would just lose all the progress you had made in the divorce, which gave you an advantage. I shudder to think that you could lose that advantage for the sake of your kids. Their security trumps all.

Yes the case will defintely remain open. She knows if she is not honest with me and faithful, then it is over. I purchased the GPS so I will be watching her very closely.

In the meantime, we had a good time together last night. I bought her flowers, made her dinner and we watched the movie Fireproof. I will try to do a stellar plan A while still being very guarded and cautious. We are going to meet with the pastor at our church and begin counseling together.

OH NO, plan A is over, Ed. The plan now has to be one of MUTUAL COMMITTMENT to recovery. Plan A means one sided giving with no expectation of return and that won't cut it.

Please be very careful.

I hear ya...we need to plan A each other. She knows this and says she is on board. If I see nothing given back in return, I will know she has not changed.

You got it!

Ed:

Here is your problem:



She is NOT capable of this.

I read your entire thread. Please go back and read from the beginning.

She is not capable of being a "good mother"

You are a terriffic father. You expect her to be the model mother. She isn't. And she will never be one.

And that is the disconnect that is in your marriage that will NEVER be fixed.

Three weeks ago the Plan D was full steam ahead, with your WW's support.

Then she found out about your dates. And you were going to Divorce her, and that she was at a true disadvantge.

So, suddenly she has been "scared straight"? I don't think so....

DO NOT drop the divorce action.
DO NOT let her move in.
Make her PROVE her transparency and actions for at least the 60 days that you asked for.

And reconcile YOURSELF to the fact that even if:

She ends her affair
Goes NC with the OM
Provides complete transparency

That she STILL will not be a "good mother"

She never was, and never will be. This is something that has to be inside you, and MB will not bring that out. POJA can not work here.

What you expect her to be in the home is not something she is capable of. That is harsh, but with everything you have posted since November, it doesn't seem possible that she can make that type of change.

Sorry, she is one of those women who are not fitting into to those streotypes of Mom and Apple Pie. And that doesn't make either of you bad people. It just makes you people. Incompatible people to a certain extent, with a gulf that may be to wide to bridge.

She can do the easy stuff. Ending the A, NC, Transparency. But where your marraige will fail in the future is her complete inability to live up to your expectations of her as a mother. She isn't the one.

Think about this.

I believe it is a very stark choice in your case.

LG

LG - I do think she is capable of making changes. Her biggest issue with the kids is a lack of patience. She had a rough childhood so she did not exactly grow up with a good example of a mother. I am hopeful that with counseling she can make improvements.

I do not expect or need her to be the stereotypical stay at home super mom. Not everyone is cut out for that and I totally get that. That is not what I meant by "a good mother" I am fine with pitching in and helping share responsibility. I just don't want to hear all the complaining about how she hates the lifestyle, feels trapped, etc. etc. If this continues, then I know she has not changed and I am out. It was this attitude that led her to need to escape and run into an affair.

Ed, she can make the choice to be a good mother TODAY. She doesn't need counseling to do that, that would just be a diversion from fixing the problem now. Delving into her childhood is a distraction.

Wow...this did not take long, so much for her being serious about things.

I had to work half a day on Sat, so WW had the kids. I came home to lots of complaining...the kids were driving her crazy. She did not want to come out bowling with us because that did not sound "fun" I could sense from just two or three days that nothing had changed. Nothing will ever change with her. This has nothing to do with me and everything to do with her wanting to live a completely selfish lifestyle. She does not want to take care of anyone but herself and when she does, she is going to be unhappy and complain constantly.

She called me yesterday and said this is not going to work. I think she realized that I can make her dinner and buy her flowers all the time, but that is not going to change anything. So in a way, at least this gives us the closure that we both need. I gave it a chance, but it is time to move on.

You all were right on with your instincts about her not being serious. I also am not surprised by the outcome, but I did think she would make it longer than three days! Oh well...Thank you to everyone for your advice and support these past few months. This site has been an amazing resource to guide me through this crazy time in my life.

THANK GOD!!

I am not thankful that this didn't work, but am thankful that you have accepted the reality that she is not serious and are removing yourself and your little kids from further harm!

I really am very sorry for you Ed. But this could have been much, much worse.

At least I was able to get a refund on the GPS tracker I bought on Sat.

I just spoke to WW...she is having second thoughts about the D. She says she wants to be a part of the kids lives and our friends, neighborhood, extended family, etc and realizes this will not happen if we D. She says she realizes that her unhappiness had very little to do with me and was her own issues and hating the lifestyle. She thinks it will get better with time as the kids get older. She also thinks would be better if she quit her job so she did not have too much on her plate.

Once again I am skeptical. I told her to end her affair first for good this time. I kind of wish she would just let go so that I can move on with my life. But then I think about what if maybe things could work out. That would be for the best fot everyone. I am torn about if I should give her more time to demonstrate she is serious or just tell her it is over.

We have a signed agreement in place...just waiting for her to take a parenting class on March 6 before we can submit to the judge. I told her I still want her to take that class. Part of me feels like she is just desperate now because she realizes what she is giving up. Even if that is the case, is that a good reason to give her another chance? I already gave her one chance a few weeks ago. I asked what is different now and she said she felt terrible the first time about ending it with OM that he didn't see it coming. I guess now it would be easier? Whatever...I just don't know...

Other than ending the affair, what else should I look for? She claims to have a new perspective on things and will work on improving her attitude. She also realizes that her affair had very little to do with me and more to do with her just wanting to escape the real world. She says she is willing to go to counseling to work on those issues.

GROUNDHOG DAY!!!

Mel's right, you know.

Yep...I know. I guess I am just having a tough time with how and what to say to her. I have been told before that I am too nice of a person...so I know that is what is at play here. Along with the slightest hope that maybe she really could change and be a better mom and wife.

Keep to YOUR PLAN

If/when the day arrives where WW has made the important changes within herself, has learned the lessons .... you WILL recognize that woman as your wife.

You can always re-marry if she becomes you wife once more.

Keep to your plan.

Politely say "NO THANKS!"

Tell her it is over. But some day if she does make some demonstrable changes, you might be willing to give it a second thought!

I know these changes will not happen overnight. They will likely take months or years to see and trust that they are sincere, real changes.

My plan would be to move forward with the D...I just can't imagine anything that she could say or do at this point to make me change my mind. I would not believe the sincerity of it. I just know that once we D, then it is most likely over for good. I don't think she would ever get over that.

I think the only other option would be to postpone the D and give her time to demonstrate she is sincere. The problem with this is the only way for me to know if she is sincere would be for her to move back to the house and observe her behavior. I think that is a bad bad idea.

I am just struggling with how to explain this to her, if she is telling me she realizes how bad she screwed up, we should try to work it out for the kids sake, she has a new perspective on life, etc. etc.

Ed, you really do not owe her any explanations. You gave it all to save the M, but at this point she is no M material.
You say politely and firmly: Thank you for wanting to try, but no.
If she keeps at it repeat the mantra. Thank you for wanting to try, but no.
blessings

As we say in TEXAS, talk is cheap!! She has not changed. This is just empty talk. Don't make any plans to accommodate her unless you SEE ACTION. And you need to see a long term demonstration of action.

I suspect this is all talk designed to manipulate you into stopping the divorce. If she is SINCERE, she will feel the same way AFTER the divorce and will devote herself to changing herself. If not, SHE IS NOT SINCERE.

Stick with your plan and stop allowing her to sidetrack you, Ed. This is nothing worth slowing down over.

Also, when we spoke earlier she gave me a feeling that she was going to make this difficult. She made the comment that, how is it fair that I get everything...the house, the kids, the neighbors, I hang out with her family still. I don't want things to turn into an ugly battle at this point, so I am going to try to be polite and nice when dealing with her.

So everything was filed with the court yesterday and my divorce should be final. I should probably get my post moved to the divorced forum. How do I do that?

I feel relieved and know I will be better off. My ex has introduced the kids to her OM which bothers me. She is also looking to buy a house with him in our neighborhood. I know there is nothing I can do to stop that, but it really upsets me.

I think that once the newness of him being around the kids wears off, she will go back to her usual angy, selfish, miserable, self. I know this is not my problem anymore, but it is somewhat upsetting.

Oh well, overall...very good news and I am happy this is just about over!!

LET'S CELEBRATE!!!

Mel<---- breathes a sigh of relief.....

So just an update on my situation...all papers were sent to the court a couple weeks ago, but the D is still not official. My stbx has talked to me a couple times over the past few days, asking if I'm sure this is what I want. She has offered to go on a retreat or see a counselor with me.

I have told her that I am still very skeptical and not ready to work on things at this point. Maybe in 6 months or a year I might feel different, but not right now. She says that if thats the case then she is moving on and not looking back. But if that I were to committ to working on things she would do the same.

I am pretty sure I am making the right move by telling her no thanks right now, based on everything that has happened. She is also still seeing OM, but says she does not want to cut things off unless we are going to work on our relationship. Its like she is holding onto OM as her back up plan.

I just want to be sure I am not making a mistake. I do feel bad for my kids and don't want to be divorced.

My thought is that if she is really serious, then she will give me time and try to make changes. She claims that the changes would need to be OUR changes and that she is not going to do it without me, so either we try to work on things together or forget it. Its like she is trying to put pressure on me by saying now or never.

Just looking for some advice and/or affirmation...

Just re-read the thread, Ed!

That should tell you she is not serious about changing, except as a manipulative TOOL to try and control you. Just tell her that you aer not interested in promises of change, but REAL CHANGE. Get back to you then. Talk is cheap, ED.

Its been a while since I posted, but there have been some recent events I wanted to share and get some feedback on. My D was finalized in early April. I went through a lot of emotions, but most recently haven been feeling anger towards my ex and the OM for what they did to our family. I did a lot of venting at my ex via text messages, e-mails, phone calls..

Well for whatever reason, now she is begging me to try to work on things. Saying she made a huge mistake and realizes it is her that needs the attitude adjustment. She says she misses me and the kids. She took me for granted and wants to try to fix things.

We are going to talk to a counselor tomorrow who is familiar with the book SAA and marriage builders concepts. I know I need complete transparency, no contact with OM, better communication with each other and the rest of the MB principles.

I feel like we never truly worked on things, so it is worth giving it a chance. We are divorced, so legally I have nothing to lose. Maybe it took being divorced for her to wake up and realize how bad she screwed up.

Just looking for some advice on the sitch...I know it will be a long road.

Re-marriage happens. If she's truly committed to changing and adopting limits, then I say dip your toes and see what happens.

But be skeptical and emphasize that actions speak louder than words.

So we are about a week in and so far so good. NC with OM from what I can tell. My xww has been in good spirits helping around the house and with the kids. Very little intimacy though. SF is not one of her ENs and she says that "there is no spark" and she just does not feel like having SF with me at the end of a long day. She does not want me "pawing" at her and just wants to sleep. She says sorry but thats just how I feel. I have a real problem with that attitude. I know this will take time to see change, but I'm not sure she can change with an attitude like this. I explained that SF and affection have always been ENs of mine and are even more so now because I am very insecure in our relationship. I have stopped making any attempt at SF with her.

Here is what concerns me though....everything seems fine and we are lving a pretty typical life as parents of a 6 and 3 yr old. The problem is that this is the exact life that she could not stand and had to get away from.

I am worried that we will be in the exact same place and repreat the same pattern as before. She says she has a new outlook and perspective on things and she wants this life. Is it possible that she left our marriage thinking the grass was greener and then realized it was not the case? Can she be happy with this life?? These are my worries...

Also, she busted me spying on her today. She told me she was swimming at the Y and then having lunch by herself. She saw me drive throught the parking lot checking to be sure her car was there. She says I am acting "psycho" and that this is a total turn off. I told her that her affair with OM was a total turn off for me and that I still do not trust her or believe her. She still has OMs contact info in her cell phone and old e-mails from him. She has pics of him on her computer too. This really bothers me and are obvious triggers.

Although I know she probably has his e-mail address memorized and cell number written down, so deleting these will not stop contact. I guess its more the principal than anything else.

My husband "busted me" last night doing my exercises. It was so terrible and I was so embarrassed!! He is so mad!

Ed, you need to set your own boundaries. What were your conditions for her to meet in order to resume the M, just moving back in? It sounds to me like you not only set the bar low, you have no bar.

Complete transparency is a must for R! Not only does she need to delete all of that inforrmation, she needs to change her cell # and e-mail address and give you complete access to all of that. You must continue to check up on her and she must welcome that accountability in order to prove to you that she is no longer being a devious WW. I would make counseling with the Harleys a condition of continuing the M if I were doing it over today.

Again what were YOUR conditions to allow her to return to the M?

God's Blessings,

Say

OK first thing....you need to DELETE everything! Phone number, emails, pix, old emails etc! If those things are still with her she will always think of the OM! So my next step would be to do that!

She does not need to think its "phys-co" that you are watching her making sure she is telling the truth, that is what needs to happen during a recovery, for you to have that reassurance she is not in contact with the OM, or lying to you, but until you delete everything about that OM, your Recovery will be FAKE!

Was it her decision to keep all of his contact info and pix? If so, then you are not in a REAL recovery.

When I came back home, I always wanted to be near my husband (wheels) I miss him all the time, and SF is number 3 for my EN, but even if it was number 8 I would still be filling that need for wheels, because for him its number 2 (hello! Men needs it!)and knowing that I am fulfilling one of his EN deposits into the $LB for both me and him. What wheels usually do is through out the day he sends me nice text msgs, tells me he loves me, how pretty I am, etc. What ever he did when we first started to date because that my friend will make your wife want to LOVE you and fulfill that EN.

Let us know what she says about deleting all of his information.

ok, Ed, I don't know what i am going to do with you. The fact that your wife has an issue with you spying on her tells me SHE IS WAYWARD!! WAYWARD!! A person who is sincere does not resent this.

Damn Ed, your divorced. She isn't attracted to you. Doesn't want SF. Still has her contact if (Photos and such). WHY would you go back to that. Is that what you want for your future. She is back for one reason. Security. It did not work out with the OM, so she needs a back up plan till she finds someone else. Dump her. Move on and find someone who will love you as first on their list. Not some back up plan.

The quickest way to get her attention and have any chance of getting things back is to act like you're moving on. Really start to do so.

That will get her attention more than anything.



Act like you've had a revelation, as if you are really enjoying the idea that you're a free man, and then start behaving like one.



You're divorced now. She's either in or not. If she's not, then she's just an annoying roomate who you have no obligation to support anymore.



Right now she's just using you. You don't see it that way, but that's exactly what she's doing.



I had a girlfriend who behaved exactly like your ex is now behaving. She was living with me and I suddenly realized I was being used. I finally decided I had enough, gave her an ultimatum to get out or committ to our relationship. I really thought she'd give me the "No one talks to me that way! I'm out of here!"



But the opposite happened. She respected the fact that I grew a pair, apologized for acting like she was, and said she wanted back in. She then asked for me to loan her money.



I kicked her out. Did I want to? No. I still loved her. But she was obviously using me.



You're that guy right now.

That

Ed, he is right. She is just using you. She needs a flop house.

I hope that you have not let your XW back into your home!

Yes, she has been staying at the house, although she stil has her own place. From what I can tell from old e-mails to/from the OM, he was crazy about her and she really liked him. So I'm not sure I can say that things didn't work out with him and she needs security. She has a good job and could survive just fine on her own. I think she feels terrible about what she did to our family and does not want to be away from us.

Honestly, her attitude has been much better about the kids and responsibilty around the house. She is friendly and nice to me, just not affectionate. At our next counseling session, we are going to talk about my needs in the relationship and how those need to be met if this is going to work. I did not expect things to change overnight, so I am willing to give it time.

I think she has a lot of shame about the affair (as she should!) and gets annoyed when I bring it up. I have told her she needs to accept this if things are going to work out. I also told her she needs to delete all OM's pics, old e-mails and contact info. She said OK... she simply said OK but it was clear that she did not want to discuss it in any further detail.

We have a session with our counselor this morning...

ed, can you do the Marriage Builders online course? They don't believe that marital recovery "takes time" and push you through a recovery program whose goal is romantic love. They assign you a coach who contacts you weekly and if you have any problems, then you can post to Dr Harley over on the weekend forum.

Traditional marriage counseling is about as useful as getting a pedicure because they dont know how to save marriages. They have an 84% failure rate and cause more harm than good.

Their program works FAST and doesn't mess around with any nonsense.

Your biggest issue is that your wife is wayward and most MC's are not going to recognise that state of mind and treat it accordingly. Dr Harley WILL. He will knock her on her butt if need be. That way he is the bad guy, not you.

I'll see if she is open to that. However, I believe that our current counselor does buy into the MB concepts. A lot of the articles they put out have a very similar message to Dr Harleys. She was also the one who recommended we read SAA.

In our session today I am going to bring up a few things and see what the counselors reaction is.
- my needs not being met
- her being annoyed or resenting me for spying and saying I am being demanding
- what is our plan to fix things

We will see how it goes....

Ed, is there a PLAN to affair proof your marriage and create ROMANTIC LOVE? What is the counselor's track record? There has to be a GOAL and a PLAN. Otherwise, you are just emitting carbon emissions for no good reason.

The session went well. The counselor made some good points...she said my xww attitude is completely dismissive about my feelings and this needs to change. My xww has a lot of shame and guilt about the affair, so it is tough for her to talk about. She still needs to accept my feelings though.

She also gave us homework...we each wrote down several things that make us feel loved. It is our homework to try to do at least one or two of these over the next week. We talked about other ways, other than SF to create emotional intimacy. The goal is to fill each others love banks over the next week.

I do not expect SF anytime soon, but I do expect to see progress and an effort on her part to meet my needs. There are other ways to show love and affection that we talked about.

ED,

You are being played. I was you a few short years ago!

Depending on your personality and your smarts, it could go either way. However, you show a little spunk when you divorced her.

Sorry to be so harsh but you should check out the web site:
http://www.nomoremrniceguy.com/forums/

You are the CLASSIC 'Nice Guy'. If I were with you in person, I may just push you around a little!

My advice:

1) Drop the Marriage counselor
2) Tell her exactly what you want...nicely and calmly.
3) Get her out of the house...now

I do not expect SF anytime soon.


Well, this is what you will get! I wonder if the OM expected sex?

You are now divorced. Your ex has no obligation to meet your needs nor do you have any to meet hers.

If she�s living with you and giving you grief for having feelings about her affair, then she can take her attitude elsewhere.

Watch how quickly she changes her tune if you grow a pair.

But still, there is NO obligation to meet your needs on her part and vice versa.

For now, you�re nothing more than a man she can leech off of until she finds a new OM.

You will not get anything until you grow a pair and throw her out.

The way I look at this, I have very little to lose here. I am already divorced with posession of the house and custody of my kids. Things can go nowhere but up and I am willing to give her a chance. For my kids sake more than anything. I also do think things can get better between us. I am not letting her push me around anymore. I have made it very clear that I will not be in a relationship with someone who does not give a damn about meeting my needs. I am willing to be patient, as long as she is honest, faithful and showing signs of progress in the right direction.

Maybe I'm being a fool, but like I said, I see very little downside here.

I'm ok with her in the house. It gives me a chance to observe her behavior. Like I said she has been helping quite a bit with household chores, grocery shopping, the kids, etc.

Ed, there is a huge downside here. First off, you and the kids can get attached to her again. She can treat you as badly as she did before. SHE is the one who nothing to lose.

She could also gain custody of your kids by living there. And that is what I suspect this is all about. She is there long enough to establish residency so she swoop in and get custody.\

The huge red flag is that she is holding secrets from you. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide.



But you ARE in a relationship with someone who won't meet your needs. She won't have sex with you. THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE.

If things do not improve and I don't see any progress being made then I will ask her to leave. I'll have to ask my lawyer about the custody situation. I did not think she would have a leg to stand on since we are not married.

She has handed over all passwords, etc.

Is it realistic for me to expect sex right away? I feel like we have to work on establishing some emotional intimacy first and then sex should follow. I think this would take time, right?

Ed,you should expect that she meets your needs on DAY 1. She should get in the habit of meeting your needs.

Custody arrangements get re-negotiated all the time.

Ed,

I was devastated when my XW left me. After 8 months or I started to date again. My dates were out of town and 100 miles away. This drove my XW crazy. She had one of my kids go through my caller ID on my phone and report back to her the women I was calling. She called this women. It was quite funny...

The XW had moved down the street and was constantly emailing/harassing me. She cheated and wanted out, but wanted me at her beck and call. Similar to your situation, she wanted my money. That was it. She did not want me.

It took me months away from her to get a TRUE picture of my situation. I could not think clearly. You will benefit immensely when you get your XW out of your house. Heck, you can still see her occasionally.

She doesn't want you to move on.

Is it unrealistic to expect sex right now?

Yes. You're divorced. Generally doesn't happen.

She's actively wayward and holding secrets from you. Actually, they really aren't secrets anymore because she is no longer your wife and has no obligation to tell you anything.

Move on. I was in your shoes from the standpoint that I was divorced, but hadn't mentally accepted it. Kept me from moving on.

There are MANY downsides to what you're doing right now, including legal ones. Custody can ALWAYS be revisted. It can be redone. I had mine redone 2 years after the D and I get to see my kids a lot more now.

She is holding secrets from you. If she's not there to work on the marriage, then what is she there for?

IMO you should have NEVER let your XW back into your home until you were assured of her FULL committment towards an intimate relationship with you

One of the greatest regrets I have is not listening to the advice I was getting on these boards. I wasn't clear headed at the time, which is where you are. We don't have the emotional attachment you do.

You are now divorced. She has no obligation to tell you anything and vice versa.

Any relationship now would be like starting from scratch. She won't have one with you since she is still actively wayward and you are simply hanging on to hope.

She'll use that as long as she can to get what she needs before she finds OM2.

Kick her out on her a$$ and go to Plan B. She can only come back to you if she committs in full to your Plan B conditions.

Right now you're simply torturing yourself.

Thanks for the objective advice... I will talk to her tomorrow. She is asleep right now...cell phone hidden in a tissue box by the bed. Enough said, right. She needs to go...

1. If the cell phone is off, turn it on and make sure it's not set to "vibrate".
2. Get its number.
3. When your WXW is up, call it from your home line (I'm betting her reaction should be priceless)
4. Ask your WXW to leave immediately. In fact, have her bags packed and waiting. At the door.

Its not a secret phone...just her regular phone. Hidden for some reason. I checked call history and texts while she was asleep and she must have deleted anything she didnt want me to see. Regardless it is unacceptable.

It would be unacceptable if she was still married to you. She's not.

Right now she's a roomate you wish to have a relationship with. In many respects, you have no right to go through her phone.

You're divorced legally but not in your head or your heart.

The second you accept it, start acting like it, and following it, will be a massive relief for you.

It will also mark a turning point in your relationship. She knows she has you right now. The second you start showing independence and indifference towards her will be the second her attitude changes. Mark my words on this.

And if she doesn't, then all the better. But I lived what you're living with someone I dated. I kicked her out when it finally became clear I was being used. I gave her the ultimatum first, thinking she would tell me to go to he77 and leave, but she instead apologized.

After she asked for money, I kicked her out.

You're being used. Otherwise why is she there?

Well, she is at it again...

She found out I was dating someone and now claims that she has changed, please give her a chance so that we can save our family, she is truly sorry, etc etc. But of course she wants me to stop seeing this girl. I told her I have no intention of doing that, but that I hope for her own sake and our kids sake that she has changed. It will make her a better person. I have explained that she destroyed what we had and that I am disgusted by her.

She claims I am not thinking clearly because I have gotten involved with someone else who is serving as a distraction. I have explained to her that we are divorced and that I am simply moving on with my life. Her opinions do not matter anymore.

My thought is that if she really has changed I will know it. All I see right now is a crazy ex wife trying to manipulate me because she is jealous and upset about the thought of being replaced. I guess this is probably pretty typical of a wayward ex, right? So I am holding my ground and not letting her get her way...

What is the living situation? Is she still in the house?

The answer to this is silence. You are now divorced and do not have to explain yourself to her in any way.

It took me a long time to get to that point. Don't explain anything. Don't answer her.

Forget this toxic woman and focus on your new life.

You are likely not ready to date again. When you're at a point where you really don't care about her reaction, then you're ready to date. Right now it doesn't sound like you are.

Who cares what she thinks? You're divorced. Enjoy life.

She is out of the house...she was back in for about a week in May. A last ditch effort to "work on things" I was skeptical and told her to leave once it was clear that she had no intention of recovery.

She is causing a lot of drama in my life. Stopping by the house with the kids when she knows I have someone over. Threatening to make my life miserable if I move forward with this other woman. Says she can't stand the thought of someone else in her house... I am very happy as long as I don't have to deal with her drama. I just don't get the behavior...

You have no obligation to her, might as well go dark on her, not your kids of course. Delete her from facebook, change your phone, treat her like a stalker, get rid of everything that she could use to make contact. You have kids to take care of and needs that must be fulfilled by a loving and caring wife. Besides that you have to learn how to build a good marriage, there is nothing the ex has to offer you.

I know you are just dating, but it never hurts to find someone who can meet your needs, and practice those principles to build a good marriage.

She had her chance. She did not repent.

If you did get together she would drop you again. No lady likes to get dumped. This is hurting her self image.

Make a legal case against her for trespassing. Deal with the kids via an intermediary. What woman will accept an ex hanging in the background?

You need to get a court order against her coming over unannounced with your kids. She will keep you from moving on only if you let her. If she shows up at your place unannounced, then you need to call the police and file papers to give you sole legal custody if her behavior doesn�t change.

My ex swears she is serious about changing, sorry for the pain she caused me and wants to make it better. She is persistent. I find myself considering the idea of at least stepping back from the dating scene to give her a chance to show me that she has changed.

Maybe I am being foolish, but ideally, there is nothing I would rather have than our family back together and a good relationship with her...one where we are aware and committed to meeting each others needs. She swears to me that she realizes what a mistake she made and how stupid it was of her to walk out on me.

Ed, why don't you ante up the cost of a few counseling sessions and counsel with Steve Harley? Let him discern her sincerity and if she is sincere, he will put together a plan for recovery. I know it is expensive, but it might the best thing in your situation. If you do this, I would counsel with Steve.

She never imagined you would actually move on. What is she willing to do to prove that she�s changed? If she is truly willing, then she will agree to do counseling and tons of other stuff to earn you back.

BUT, my gut tells me this is nothing more than pride. She can�t stand that you are dating again, wants to get you back to show she still has �it� and will simply revert to old patterns once she has you hooked.

She says she is willing to do counseling to work on herself and our relationship. She actually has been seeing a counseling and claims it has helped a lot. She is also willing to give up cell phone records, e-mail passwords, slow down on her school, focus more on the kids and me, etc etc. So far saying the right things...I just need to see sustained action to see if it is for real.

My fear is that she will put on an act just to get me back. She claims that she is sincere and would never risk losing me again. She realizes how stupid her actions were.

Put the onus on her. Give her the number for the coaching center. Tell her to call you when she's talked to a coach and let you know what her plan is.

Ignore her words. Look at her ACTIONS.

You need to not waste your time with a traditional counselor. Go to someone who has an operating BULLCRAP detector who can hold her feet to the fire. And HE WILL hold her feet to the fire.

Please stop messing around here. Go to Steve Harley and let him test her sincerity and work her over. If she is not for real he will tell you to dump her.

Why don't you ALSO make it a condition that she come here and post to us? LET US test her sincerity.

Before you do that, ask the moderators to hide your thread. Let us see how real she is.

Would Steve really tell you at some point that your M and WS are not worth a recovery and therefore you better divorce?

blessing

yes, he does! Keep in mind, though, that Ed is already divorced.

oh yes, that is right, he is divorced.
So Steve would actually say to the couple: you guys will never make it because your WS is not going to change and has no intention of being serious about R...
and he would say this also to a couple who is not yet divorces

What he usually tells them is to go into Plan B for 2 years and THEN divorce. These guys are already past that point, they are divorced. So if she is not serious, as I suspect, he might just tell Ed to get rid of her.

Now, there have been cases where Dr Harley has told people to just go file for divorce NOW.

Just an update...my ex was out of the state with the kids for five days. She called or texted almost everyday, sent pics of the kids, said she missed me, etc etc. Yesterday, they came back and she came over for dinner at my place. She was pleasent...Even helped tuck the kids into bed.

She asked me if I had missed her. I told her that i hated the person she has been for the past year. She says she has a sweet side to her...I told her that she has an evil side too which scares me.

Just from hanging out with her, the problem I have is that it is the same life that she was soooo miserable with. So dreadful that she slept with some stranger, then proceeded to move out of the house and pursue a relationship with this goof ball. She claims that she "has a new perspective on things" and realizes that her life was not so bad after all. Not sure what to make of that statement... Is it possible for someone to be so confused and lost in life that they would do such a thing?

She is also talking about a future....mentioning spending Christmas together as a family, referring to my house as "ours", vacations, etc.

Not sure what to make of all this...I am keeping my walls up big time. Thoughts???

I am still planning on a phone session with Dr. Harley. I need to mention this to her at some point. I would be interested to hear his take.

Your feelings are all natural and you have a healthy dose of skepticism. Keep your guard up and make her do the work to earn you back. She messed up, not you.

How does your family feel about all of this?

My family is worried about it... They do not want to see me hurt again and they think she is not sincere.

Why don't you come up with a list (kinda like a plan B letter) of all the things it would take on her part for you to allow her back into your life? If she doesn't agree to that list or she does but doesn't follow through, then you go to a dark plan B. When she finally agrees to that list (which should include coaching with the Harley's or a MB weekend), then you can take her back. Until then, you should be in a dark plan B.

Keep in mind this list should include a HEALTHY DOSE of SF. If she's not willing to meet that need, then the he11 with her, you'll find someone that will meet it.

They are RIGHT. She is not sincere. She is a very slick talker, Ed.

Before you make any decisions, why not call Steve Harley and get his take. Talk to him before you mention it.

If she were repentant she would be bustin' down doors to repair the damage she's caused. She wouldn't be giving lip service to a 'new perspective' her BEHAVIOR would be different.

Here she's just wishful thinking - wanting to cake eat and seduce you into a fantasy divorce scenario where she gets the husband and kids, but doesn't have to accept any responsibility for what she has done.


You gave her an opportunity to accept blame for her despicable actions and demonstrate remorse. Instead she took it as an opportunity to minimize her evils and talk herself up.

So what if she has a sweet side? Didn't stop her destroying a family.

Seriously, quit the back and forth with her. Tell her that you will consider recovery IF and ONLY IF she commits 100% to MB and if SHE makes the first call.

Make your list of requirements, give them to her - and then do not revisit the subject. If she brings it up, ask her if she has begun working on your list. If she responds negatively, let her know you will only consider her once she's addressed the list.

Ignore her words. Her words are trash. She told you she loved you then fooled around on you. She told OM she loved him and is now toying with you.

Her words are crap.

This was probably a big mistake but I slept with my ex tonight. We went to dinner at her parents tonight and had a nice time. She came over after the kids were asleep and one thing lead to another...

She knows SF is one of my top ENs...so I am somewhat torn. Is she sincerely trying to meet my ENs or is she just using that as a way back in to my life.... Ughhhhh!!!!

I am still far from certain that I want to be in a relationship with her. I'm heading out of state in a couple days to visit my family so it will be good to step back and get away for a while.

Hope she's been tested or some protection was used.

I would give her the Harleys phone number and tell her you don't want to talk with her or see her again until she's worked with them for a while. You need to see action and I'm not talking about the kind you saw last night. Otherwise you have to consider that you're going in for another round of abuse.

My ex has supposedly ended it with her BF and says she wants to work on things. She lives in the neighborhood, so she has been coming by to spend time with me and the kids. Both in the morning to help get them ready for school and in the evenings for dinner. She has been much better around the kids.

I guess one thing I'm having a problem with is her attitude towards sex. Last night, after the kids were asleep I tried to initiate and she said she was not ready for that. She says she needs to want to have sex in order to do it and that "something" has to be there.

My thought is that if we are going to try to work this out we both need to be committed to meeting each others needs. She says she does not want to feel like it is a chore. I'm concerned that she is once again searching for some elusive spaek that exists in romance novels and movies, but not in real life.

She says she is still upset over breaking up with someone she was crazy about...At that point I hung up the phone. I sent her a text saying "Sorry to hang up on you, but it makes me sick to hear you talk about that POS"

Should I stick with this and keep trying to meet her needs in the hopes that we will build the connection that she says she needs? I am pretty frustrated with her attitude though...

If I tell her to leave me alone, she will reply that we will never have a connection unless we spend time together and that unless we have a connection she does not want sex.

Hey, wasn't she living with you a while back? What happened there?

I think she is just using you to regain custody of the kids. She is trying to build her case.

Couldn�t have said it better myself.

There is an evil trick many exes play. They use sex as a weapon, even going so far as to make false claims of abuse in order to get a leg up on custody.

This also strikes me as being disingenuous. If she supposedly realized her mistake, then she would be going through an insatiable �makeup SF� phase.

She�s playing you and doing it to be near the kids and keep you from moving on.

Remember, she enjoys this drama.

Ed, if I were you, I would start dating again. She wanted you to dump your GF so bad the last time she moved in for a while. And then what? She moved out and got her own place once her job was done.

Why are you letting her string you along? Why are you letting her start to walk all over your boundaries?

If she is interested in recovery she will take ACTION to undo the damage of her adultery. If you're serious about this you need to set a very high BAR for her to reach.

You need to be clear.

What you need is NOT sex to reconnect and recover.

What you need is counseling with the Harleys.

Seriously - you need to give her the number and tell her to call then maintain NC with her until she does.

You are LETTING this woman mess with your head and your children.

STOP IT!

Why are you even trying with your ex? That is MY question?? If she doesn't like her life then that is HER CHOICE!! You need to move on and date someone healthy not someone who is messed up in the head!!

Let her know that she can see the kids, but you will not be around when she has her visitation rights.

and buddy...

MOVE ON!!!!

In reading through some of the Q&A on this website, it sounds like she is in withdrawal right now. I would like for this to work to keep our family together and I feel like deep down there is a good person there. If she can just keep her head on straight and work on us.

My ideal situation would be to work things out with her. But of course, I don't want to be in a relationship where my needs are being neglected. I guess i just want to give this a fair shot for my kids sake. I know we tried before, but I don't think we ever gave it a real shot. There was still so much anger from the affair, she never fully cut OM out of her life, etc., etc.

I want to try to be positive with her to give it a fair chance, but I need to be firm with what is expected. From what Dr. Harley says, it can take several weeks or more to get over withdrawal... Maybe I should give it at least that much time?

Give her the Harley's phone number. If she takes action - meaning make the call and start working on a plan, you have an answer that you can hold on a little while longer. If not, you know this isn't real and to get away as quick as you can.

I e-mailed her the number and asked her to set something up for next week. We will see what the response is.

At times, I read some of the other posts here and the Q&A on this website and it seems like her actions could be described as "typical wayward" The withdrawal, feelings of guilt/shame over the affair, comments about her "connection" with OM, and on and on.

I guess for those reasons, I think that maybe things could work out if she commits to a plan. However, it seems that most people here think I should not even bother. I guess I'm wondering why this is... what makes her actions/comments different from all the other waywards out there? Maybe I'm just being overly optimistic but I would like for things to work somehow.

She claims that she did not want the divorce and felt I rushed her into it. She signed the papers because she felt at the time that she did not want to be with me and I was giving her an ultimatum.

My fear is that she is always going to compare me to OM and we will never have the "spark" that they had. I explained to her that the "spark" was only because their relationship was new and it was also her way of escaping reality. So we, as a couple with 2 young kids, can never have that type of lifestyle. I am scared she is setting unrealistic expectations by comparing our relationship to her affair and that she will never be satisfied.

It has to do with having pride in yourself. Is she a typical wayward? Perhaps. But you mentioned some things which indicates she has personality issues that are much deeper.

She strikes me as a woman who enjoys the chase. That gives her the energy and spark. But to claim she wishes to work things out while at the same time not throwing herself into the effort and showing passion for getting you back is indicative to me that she�s just playing you. She�s setting it up for custody or to play the sick game in her head of chasing you till you cave. This is a game of pride. It drives her nuts that you ended it.

Would you put up with this from a woman you were dating? I�m not talking about sex. I�m talking about someone who half-a$$ approaches you and is like, �I don�t know. I might like you. I might not.�

Wouldn�t it be better to date someone who is excited to see you, enjoys your company, and is passionate about you?

This isn�t an encouragement to you to go date. This is merely to indicate to you what you should be seeing from your xWW.

She is playing you. Plain and simple.

She is not different from any WS out there, that is why we think you should not get back with her. She uses you even when you are divorced. Getting back together with her will only hurt you again, maybe worse because she does not even consider divorce a punishment. Its just another obstacle to her selfish life style.

You divorced her to protect yourself and your kids from her and her destructive ways. You deserve a healthy partner who respects the commitment of marriage, and understands that divorce is costly in more ways than money. Your ex does not understand marriage and divorce.

You can talk with Steve, and he may suggest something completely different, but I suggest getting an IM for your XWW and train the IM to only send messages that are important. Go dark on your XWW she is no longer part of you.

What we're trying to tell you is that you deserve better than to have someone who is coming to you, using you to get affection, and then tells you, "I don't feel a spark."

Understand that women like her are NEVER satisfied, no matter how much affection you show them. You will never meet her expectations of romance, which only exist in Hollywood and fantasy land.

This is never going to change. She's an emotional black hole. YOU can't ever fill it. The void is within her.

Thank you for the advice...it sounds like you are right. We got into an argument just a little while ago...she was complaining that she was broke, so I commented that maybe she shouldnt have gone on a vacation with OM that you couldnt afford. She said she was entitled to a vacation and told me to F-Off. At which point I told her to leave. I called her later and told her that I will not tolerate being talked to like that.

At which point she started going on about how she wishes she could love me and she just doesn't know that this can work. I told her fine then leave me alone. You were the one who said you wanted another chance, not me. I told her she was lucky to have another chance and that she was doing a lousy job trying to win me over. She hung up. I'm sure she will be contacting OM tonight and quite frankly I really dont give a damn.

She also made the comment that the reason she is having such a tough time moving in is that "I took everything from her" meaning the house and the kids. I replied that I did not take that from her...she left. That was her choice and she needs to deal with the consequences.

So now you have your motive. You're divorced. You do not have to take her calls. Block them. You do not have to take her emails. Block them. Find an intermediary to deal with communications over the children.

Turn out all the lights and be gone!

Ed,

Seriously, good job. You stood up for yourself. You really do deserve more.

Stay strong.

Quick update and looking for some advice...

My ex went from Aug 30 through Sept 18 without seeing OM. He lives out of state now, so I know she was not seeting him during this period. We were spending time together so I know she was not traveling to see him. THen I took my kids on vacation and she went to visit him for a day, just last weekend. Says she missed him and wanted to see him.

My ex says she will call Dr Harley and set up a counseling session. Says she wishes things could work for us, but thinks she will miss OM and doesnt want to be in a relationship where she feels no connection or passion for the other person. I told her that if she is willing to follow Dr Harley's advice we could change that.

Should I be on the call or let her do it alone? I think Dr Harley needs to know my side of the story as well. She can do a very good job focusing on the negative and making it sound like I was neglecting her, rather than focusing on what the real issues are.

I would also like to hear Dr. Harley's thoughts on if this is even worth my time. I have doubts that she has what it takes to make things better. She feels like "the spark" should just be there and that it shouldnt be forced or difficult.

I appreciate any thoughts or advice on how to handle this...

Let her do it alone. You can email the Dr. your side of the story so he is aware of it, but the heavy lifting needs to be done by her. From what I know he's pretty good and seeing through Wayward BS.

You could benefit from Dr. Harley's advice, but I would counsel with him separately and alone, you don't even need to let your wife know you're talking to him at this point.

Her thoughts on 'the spark' reflect a freeloader's attitude. I suggest you get and read 'Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders' it may provide valuable insight into your wife.

Your ex is a freeloader. Why pursue a relationship with a man you supposedly feel nothing for? You�re not married anymore. You don�t owe her anything.

Watch how much her spark returns when you tell her, �I�m not doing this anymore. Move on with your life and I�ll move on with mine, but I really don�t want to deal with you, interact with you, or have anything to do with a woman who feels nothing for me. I�m going to be with someone who will appreciate me. Go find your spark. I�m done and value myself more than this idiot game we�re playing.�

Watch how you suddenly become irresistible. Problem is, I really believe this is what you should do. Move on. Let her go. She�s not worth it and you shouldn�t have to be with someone who feels like she�s settling.

I�m remarried and both my new wife and I feel lucky to have each other and that we�re great matches.

There are plenty of times that I tell myself I should just forget it and move on... but then I hold onto hope that if she were to really try to work on things and follow Dr Harley's advice then things could be better.

Isn't her behavior typical WW behavior? Dont they all say these things...I like you as person, but "its" just not there, etc, etc.? I don't expect her to all of the sudden feel in love with me again. That would take time, deposits to the love bank, getting over withdrawal from OM...right??

I feel like if she is really willing to talk to Dr Harley, then I owe it to my family to at least give her time. Her feelings for me will not change overnight.

If she refuses to cut off all contact from OM FOR LIFE, COMMIT to a recovery plan, be transparent, and put up extraordinary precautions to prevent things from happening, then she is not worth wasting your time over. She is a cake eater, and will continue to waffle. She is not a typical WW because she is NOT your wife. She is free to go and pursue any other man that comes into her life.

Yes, your wife wayward "friend" is a wayward with typical wayward behavior. That is why we are telling you to move on. MOVE ON! When a WW won't end her affair and commit to the marriage, the solution is Plan B and DIVORCE. The solution is not to hang around and waste your time with no plan.

move on, Ed!! It's over! You gave her every chance and she never stepped up to plate. She is not sincere. She just wants to use you.

Hope is not a plan....

That is the line that clued me in to her freeloader mentality. In marriage, you have to actively cultivate that spark.

I agree - she isn't your wife, she is a free agent able to see who ever she wants.

You REALLY need to cut her out of your life. I know the best possible scenario is you two get back together and create a happy family for your children. I know you want that, you want it so bad that you're cutting your EX wife slack and trying to carry a weight that is HERS ALONE to carry.

You need to let go of this hope. If she DOES do the work she needs to let her do it for herself, because it is the right thing to do.

You've done more than enough to demonstrate you could be a good husband. You've laid out your requirements for recovery of the marriage. It is no longer up to you what happens. You've ALREADY done all the work you can do here. There is NOTHING more you can do, because her future is in HER hands. It will be up to HER to counsel with the Harleys and put together a plan to CONVINCE YOU she is worth returning to.

You are grasping for the crumbs she throws you and you're a starving man. There are feasts to be held if you'd just turn your eyes from her and towards your own future. Whether that future has her in it is NOT your choice, but HERS.

She knows right from wrong, she knows your bar is high and where it sits. Let her chose to reach for it, or not. But walk away for now.

I agree I have done everything in my power and that I can't control her actions. I guess its tough for me to accept that.

I will see what she does, in terms of contacting Dr. Harley and demonstrating that she is committed to a plan. In the meantime I will be cordial with her for my kids sake

Here is the thing, Ed. When a wayward is foggy, that is not a condition to be tolerated, but a problem to be solved. She has had ample time to resolve this problem and commit to the marriage and has not done so.

Mel - I think I understand what you mean, but only the wayward can solve this problem. I have no control over it. I think her contacting Dr Harley would be a positive step in the right direction towards solving the problem.

Who knows...she may never call Dr Harley or she may tell me that she thinks he is a quack. I guess, for whatver reason, I am willing to see what she does and give it a chance, but only if I am convinced she is committed to a plan.

You need to limit the contact you have with her. You are in your own fog. Her continued presence in your life clouds your judgement and will prevent you from healing and moving on. It is what is preventing you from seeing this situation clearly and is keeping you in limbo.

I'm not talking about moving forward with dating, but moving forward with your own life and through the recovery you need to do. You will never do that as long as you hold out hope.

Your EX-wife is stuck down a well, you've thrown down a rope and she is MORE than capable of climbing out. But she's sitting down in the well with her arms crossed refusing to move. Now you can sit there by the well waiting, or even climb down in - or you could go and make yourself a sandwhich.

She can climb out if she wants, but you can't stay around waiting for her.

Back up for a minute and look at it this way:

You�re dating this person who happens to be the mother of your children. So remove that quality for a second.

She�s a woman you�re spending time with and dating. You like her, but she doesn�t like you in the same way. She views you as �a friend� but not a boyfriend.

Would you stay together with a woman like that?

I completely understand that fact that you love her. But you must let her go to have any kind of chance to get back together. Right now she�s freeloading.

She is kicking you in the nuts on a daily basis and you say, �thank you, ma�am, may I have another.�

So stop that cycle.

You�re dating again. This woman has just told you that she feels nothing for you and doesn�t see you in a romantic way.

If it was any other woman, you would say, �Well, it was nice meeting you. I�m moving on. I want to be with someone who likes me.�

You would then dump said woman.

So do that.

Breaking up is hard to do.

Do you think I am making a mistake by giving her the chance to talk to Dr Harley and convince me that she is committed to following his advice?

She knows I want her to do this. I am not going to nag her to do it. If she makes excuses about not having time, then I know my answer.

In the meantime, I agree that I should limit my contact with her until she demonstrates a committment to making changes.

No, I don't think that is a mistake. The mistake is WAITING for her to do that. And I would say - you don't even MENTION it again.

She already knows. Don't even give her the opportunity to make an excuse. In fact, don't even expect her to do it. Don't ask about it, nothing.

You LET her come to you. You LET her demonstrate her changes. But don't wait for them, don't expect them. Go on with your life as if they will never happen. If she ever does call the Harley's THEN you make the decision if you want to repair this or not. You may not even want to, and that won't be YOUR fault, it will be hers.

She has to WANT this.

From last January - see above.

Ed you need to quit being the yo-yo man. Detach and move-on. She may be the mother of your children but she is a toxic human being who uses people for her own needs. We should feel sorry for any man that falls for this creature. From what I can tell in this thread - she is intelligent, manipulative and dangerous.

Just a quick update... I spoke with Steve Harley last week and had a very good discussion with him. In short, he said that my ex has a "flawed view of relationships" He sent me a copy of buyers, renters and freeloaders. She was/is defintely a freeloader. I am very much a buyer. The challenge will be educating her and changing her into a buyer. He said he would like to talk to her and suggested that I keep relationship talk very general and limited. He thinks the message will be much more effective coming from him... not as self-serving.

So, I told my ex that I spoke to Dr. Harley and that I thought it would be helpful if she spoke to him. She says she will...but here we are about a week later and she has not scheduled anything. I was going to give it a few more days before saying anything. The ONLY way things will work for me is if she counsels with Dr. Harley. And even then it will be a challenge.

Things have been pretty good between us. NC with OM as far as I know. He lives out of state. She could be e-mailing him with a secret account, but I have no way of knowing that. She still lives in her own place so I dont have access to her computer. We are getting along, but I still have a lot of resentment and triggers that cause pain. She seems to want to act like the A never happened.

My feelings have love for her have completely faded. I was talking to a friend about the situation and he asked me if she made me a better person. I couldnt say yes...which I think is telling.

One of her biggest complaints has always been that she does not want to be told what to do. So I am not pushing her to call Dr Harley. I am trying to continue to be nice to her and just be myself, but it is hard to show her any love. I will give it a couple days before I ask about why she hasnt called Dr Harley. Who knows...maybe she will surprise me and schedule something.

My kids are the only thing keeping me in this right now... I see how happy they are to have her around and see us do things as a family. The problem is that when the kids arent around...I feel resentment and pain.

On a side note...tomorrow was our anniversary. Would have been 9 years. I was not going to mention it. She broke her vows to me. That date is meaningless as far as I'm concerned. Although we are still married as far as the Catholic church is concerned, but she no longer practices/believes in my religion.

BECAUSE YOU�RE NOT MARRIED!

Ed, seriously, it�s time to accept the reality and stop this denial you�re in. It�s over! You�re divorced! She can contact OM all night and every day if she wishes! She can use her computer in whatever way she wants and if you tried to put a keylogger on it you would be arrested and charged!

Ed, I�m saying this to you as a man who was stuck just as you are. I hung on to the idea that my ex would come back and called her my WW waaaay after she had left.

Took me a while to accept, but it�s over. You need to move on.

Yes, it sucks when the kids aren�t with you, but that�s a new reality you have to accept. It�s the reality of divorce.

Why do you want to hang on to someone that is so manipulative? Why are you trying to please someone that cheated on you?

You�re divorced. Let her go. Move on.

You can do much better. My point is that you�re settling and don�t need to.

In a way, what you�re doing and hoping for is very disturbing. You�re hanging on to something in the hopes that a royally mentally messed up woman suddenly changes and becomes a good Catholic and a good wife.

IT�S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!

Indeed. Even living life alone and single is much better.

I guess I feel like there have been some signs of progress, so I want to be patient and give things a chance. Maybe talking to Dr. Harley could be a turning point for her...

I read the stories of recovery and it gives me hope at times. But then there are other times when I think the resentment and pain she caused is too much to overcome.

I'm not saying I think this is going to happen. I am just willing to give it a chance before I tell her to stop coming over to the house and that I don't want to see her.

But if she isn't willing to talk to Dr. Harley or is not on board with his advice, then I will politely tell her that I no longer want her in my life.

ed,

I simply say this. There is hope that you can have a good life and be happy. There is hope that you having a good life and being happy would be good for your children. There is NO HOPE that you can fix what is within your exW.

Please use your hope on the part of life you control...yourself.

God Bless,

JL

I know that only she can fix herself. I have seen some changes and progress. She is more patient and a much better mother than before. Like I said, when we are together as a family things have been going well.

I guess I was feeling pretty good about things after my session with Dr Harley last week. She seemed open to talking to him... so I'm just discouraged and losing patience.

Ed,

You shouldn't be losing patience at this point. You're divorced. The best thing you can do right now is be civil to one another for the sake of the kids and MOVE ON WITH YOUR LIFE. You're wasting valuable time pushing on someone that doesn't want to make the effort when you should be working on YOU.

Ed, seriously, if you could remove yourself from your situation you would see how you sound. You sound desperate and like you have no self esteem. You somehow feel you can't do better.

Here's the reality about your exw. She's messed in the head! She isn't going to miraculously change by talking to Steve H.

MOVE ON!

Again, I was just like you. I hung on to denial, thinking there was someday hope.

Looking back, I'm glad she never came back to me. I'm happy she never came to her senses. Life with her would have been a sentence to misery.

I'm happy and remarried now.

Is the situation ideal for the kids? No. But that was a decision my ex made for all of us long ago.

But seriously, it's sad to see you have such low self worth that you feel you can't do better than a manipulative woman who has cheated on you and won't let you move on with your life.

You got a divorce and now you are letting her hang out with you? You need help. Why take that toxic woman back!!! You worked so hard to get rid of her. It is like trying to un-ring a bell.

Ed,

What you see as progress on her behalf, we see as manipulation because that is exactly what it is. Seriously, I know it sucks and it hurts, but you can do better. Time to move on. She hasn�t changed and won�t have some miraculous change by talking to SH.

Notice how her song and dance all changed when you dated again. She is mad she got rejected. She is putting on a good show while at the same time telling you she feels no spark and has to have it.

She is cake eating and you�re being abused. You�re being told you lack a certain something that gets her going. Yet, you keep coming back like a lost puppy, hoping she suddenly thinks you�re great.

Her motives aren�t the same as yours. She�s being guided by her libido and her desire to have �passion�. You want to restore your family.

There is a BIG difference. It�s a motive I understand. I was there. SHE ISN�T GOING TO CHANGE!

Ed,

I haven't seen one word on here on how all this drama and manipulation from your XWW is affecting your children.

Why are you not protecting your kids from this?? They need a secure home with reasonable, stable adults in it. They do not need a "mother" who comes and goes as she pleases and has no more respect for divorce than she had for marriage.

It's clear to all of us that what you see as "hope" are nothing but empty words from XWW to reel you back in. Everytime she thinks you're moving on, she tells you whatever you want to hear and bang! She's got you right back where she wants you.

She's never had to DO anything. She knows that all she has to do is mouth the right words and you will be right back with her.

Go back and read this thread again. It is just one long journal of exactly that, over and over and over again.

You have failed to understand the most important aspect of adultery: No cheater is trying to "choose" between their spouse and somebody else. Every single cheater on this planet wants to have both their spouse AND somebody else. That's the entire goal of adultery. If it wasn't, they would just leave the marriage. But they don't. They lie and cheat and waffle and sit on the fence and eat their cake and drag out having BOTH for just as long as they possibly can.

Your XWW is the queen of this behaviour, and I suspect you still think she's trying to "choose" between you and other men and if you just hold yourself out as the better choice she'll eventually see that so if you just wait long enough -

You don't understand, ed. She is NOT trying to "choose". No adulterer is. She wants both you AND other men and this entire thread is a testament to that.

Once you understand that her goal is not to "choose" but to have BOTH, maybe you'll make some progress.

And maybe your children will have a fighting chance at a normal life without a selfish cheater dropping in and out of their lives and calling herself "mommy". You can be sure that when they are older, they will forever wonder why Daddy didn't protect them from that.

Are we getting through yet?

This is how we feel every time you come back and think there is hope with this woman:



Ed, it doesn't seem to be getting through to you because you don't want to hear it. She will never voluntarily seek out SH and will only do so once you threaten to move on and drop her.

That's when she'll act. Because that's the only time a wayward acts. When a BS takes action is the only time they act.

She is playing you like a fiddle. We all see it. What does your family say to you?

I hate to say it but women like your ex, ED, always know how to "act" to reel you back in and give you "hope".

This is how they work. They reel men in and then use them. They cheat on these men and then reel 'em in more and use them again and again.

Please find out why you allow yourself to be used.

Mulan - my kids have actually been very happy to see us spending time together as a family. I guess thats why this is so tough for me. At times, I think maybe I rushed the divorce. I don't know...

But I hear what everyone is saying. Other than her showing more patience around the kids, not much has changed. She treats me like a friend and nothing more. I know she is a freeloader...her comments about a "switch" being turned off is classic freeloader mentality. I get that.... I guess I was hopeful it might be possible to turn her into a buyer, if she would educate herself.

It just very tough... we are getting along. My kids are happy. Her relationship with OM is over. I feel like a family again. I just dont know what to do or how to proceed from where I am.

I don't think she is a serial cheater... As Steve Harley told me, he thinks she has a flawed view of relationships. He also thinks there is an independence issue with her.

I don't understand why anyone who is finally free of such toxicity would ever willingly keep it up.

Do you know what you're teaching your kids? That it's appropriate for women to treat men this way. That crumbs are JUST FINE!

Why not say the same for every BS? Any BS is totally free and justified on walking away from a WS who cheats. It is the cruelest most thoughtless thing you could ever do to your husband or wife. So why would any BS return to a WS? But for some reason, many BSs decide they want to work on things.

All along, I have been of the mindset that I would rather repair than replace. It would be best for my kids. I also understand that I need to be happy too. But I guess thats why I was willing to give things a chance once OM was out of the picture.

Well... I'm gonna duck before the 2x4s start swinging! Have to go pick up my kids and will be offline for a while.

I know I sound stubborn or like my head is up you know where... but so much of her actions, words, etc. have been described as "typical wayward" So I guess thats why I was willing to give things a chance. I'm not saying I'm optimistic they will work, but I wanted to see how things play out before completely cutting her out of my life.

Ed,

I have not posted to you until now. The reason I am now is that I feel badly for you, but a little frustrated in reading your story.

Depression, Ed, is a fact of life. People do become truely drepressed, beyond their control, and they need proper treatment. How their partner reacts is an entirely different sitch. There are many times I have had to bundle my wife in the car and take her to a psychiatric unit. It is not rocket science Ed, it is just what you do for the one you love. You contact the psychiatrist ahead of time, and obtain permission for an admission. IF you had truely loved your wife you would not have let her get this far. So, do not please give Melody and others here the BS that you do not know what to do. The woman you are speaking of is Not your wife any longer, she belongs now to some other man. Get real please. You are not giving an example to the guys that come here and want help. They do not want to see this defeatest attitude. Most importantly Ed, she is no longer your wife.

Christ please give me patience!

Good Luck, Tom

But ed, that's exactly my point - you are NOT a family any longer and you are sending your kids a terrible message by pretending that you are. You are teaching them that no one has to invest in their family full-time. Part-time should be good enough. Parents can just drop in and enjoy some family time when they feel like it and then breeze out again when they get bored.

Your children are being taught that they should not expect a full-time mother. You have accepted part-time and they should, too. And I don't care that you don't "want" her to be part-time - she IS a part-time mother and you ARE putting up with it.

If you have not already, please read the MB thread below. You are becoming the poster boy for the Fantasy Divorce.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2279757&page=1

Go out and find someone who is WORTH your time. Someone who actually cherishes a family, stop wasting your time on your EX wife she will NEVER change, start dating man and get your life back. Why is your ex wife still holding onto your balls??

Ed,

My kids are happy to see me and my ex around each other as well. I wouldn't take her back if all the women in the world disappeared tomorrow.

I don't want anymore of her poison in my life. I'd rather live 10 lifetimes without her presence. I'd rather jump naked into a swimming pool filled with double edged razor blades.

I'd rather clean all the bathrooms in grand central station with my tongue.

I'd rather shove an icepick under a toenail or two.

(I'm sure some will get the reference)

My point is that I know I can do better. Yes, my kids would be happy, but I would be miserable.

I value myself too much to put up with her anymore.

What you're teaching your kids right now is terrible. You're teaching them that a person can cheat and that they can be forgiven and have them return and yank you back and forth with manipulation.

What you're doing is traumatizing to your kids and will mess them up much more than if you tell her that she needs to stay in her house and that you're moving on with your life and that the kids will see her when they see her and you will see them when you see them.

"Ever since the day you left me,
I've been so miserable, my dear.
I feel almost as bad as I did
When you were still here."

Yes, another classic by one of the best musicians ever.

A few more:

I'd rather jump naked on a huge pile of thumbtacks, or stick my nostrils together with crazy glue.

Ed is in the "I've got a funny feeling, you don't love me anymore" stage.

Ed, read it. It's Weird Al. It will make you laugh at a minimum, but this is where you are. She keeps doing things and you keep saying, "I have this funny feeling....."

Here's that classic:

We've been together for so very long
But now things are changing, oh I wonder what's wrong?
Seems you don't want me around
The passion is gone and the flame's died down

I guess I lost a little bit of self-esteem
That time that you made it with the whole hockey team
You used to think I was nice
Now you tell all your friends that I'm the Antichrist

Oh, why did you disconnect the brakes in my car?
That kind of thing is hard to ignore
Got a funny feeling you don't love me anymore

I knew that we were having problems when
You put those piranhas in my bathtub again
You're still the light of my life
Oh darling, I'm beggin', won't you put down that knife?

You know, I even think it's kinda cute the way
You poison my coffee just a little each day
I still remember the way that you laughed
When you pushed me down that elevator shaft

Oh, if you don't mind me asking, what's this poisonous cobra
Doing in my underwear drawer?
Sometimes I get to thinking you don't love me any more

You slammed my face down on the barbecue grill
Now my scars are all healing, but my heart never will
You set my house on fire
You pulled out my chest hairs with an old pair of pliers

Oh, you think that I'm ugly and you say that I'm cheap
You shaved off my eyebrows while I was asleep
You drilled a hole in my head
Then you dumped me in a drainage ditch and left me for dead

Oh, you know this really isn't like you at all
You never acted this way before
Honey, something tells me you don't love me any more, oh no no
Got a funny feeling you don't love me anymore


ED! THAT'S YOU!

Most betrayed spouses are not ALREADY DIVORCED.


Yes, but you can only do that if the wayward is also willing to work on things.

Your wayward is not willing to work on things, and so you are getting the same advice that every betrayed spouse in your situation gets: move on, because your wayward is not willing to work on things.

I'm not really sure plunging into dating is the way to fix this, but I do agree that he needs to move on.

I think he needs a good solid year or two of learning to enjoy life without this woman.

She is a typical wayward. She's the typical kind that does not want to work on the marriage. You go through the plans to find out whether the wayward wants to or not. Typically in Marriage Builders you are supposed to respond to continued waywardness with Plan B. What preparations have you made for Plan B, Ed?

If this is a typical situation (and it is), let's respond to it with typical plans, shall we?

Ed, please go listen to this song. I think maybe it will help you understand the types of typical wayward situations where moving on is warranted:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=160610&Number=2392522#Post2392522

Ed,

There is a tremendous amount of joy with being with someone that doesn�t require �work� to be around. In other words, the normal �work� that goes into keeping a relationship healthy doesn�t feel like �work� because you�re happy to do it, she�s happy to do it, and it sort of feeds itself versus requiring a partner to engage with you reluctantly.

I have that now in my life. It�s a wonderful thing. I�m telling you that you can find that as well. It�s not going to come from your WXW, who will likely forever stay wayward.

It�s a classic case of �I hate you , don�t leave me!� It�s co-dependence and you�re playing into it.

I hear that... For a while a few months ago, I was dating and it was very refreshing to be around someone who acted like they wanted to be with me. But, I realized it was too soon for that and will not rush back into anything until I am ready.

My ex scheduled an appt with Steve Harley for next Friday. I told her I need to be away from her so not to plan on coming around. Steve told me he wants to talk to me after he speaks with her. It will be interesting to hear his take.

My guess is that he�s going to sell her on the MB principles, which is good, but I�m skeptical she�ll accept them.

She�ll continue searching for that sparks she says she�s missing, but that really is one of those things where you fake it till you make it.

The best thing you can do is shift into a mode of indifference towards her. Act like you are moving on with your life and you could care less if she�s around or not. If she asks to come over, say no. The kids are with her when she gets them.

Don�t explain. You don�t have to.

In other words, acting independent will make you much more attractive to her than anything else you can do. But I�m not telling you this to get her back. I�m telling you this so you can emotionally detach yourself from her so you can make a more objective judgment about her. The side effect will be her reaction.

She hate that you rejected her. That wounds her pride.

My advice is that YOU fake it till you make it. I completely understand how you feel. You are not yet emotionally detached from your ex, which is normal. You�d be abnormal if you felt nothing.

But that detachment must happen so you can see things more clearly.

Act divorced. That doesn�t mean you become an a$$. It means she is no longer your W and you must treat her accordingly.

I don�t invite my ex to come hang out with me in my home when I have the kids. I�m sure the kids would love it. But I know I wouldn�t.

Time to truly let her go, my friend. No matter what happens with SH. You need to detach so you can judge more objectively.

Perhaps that seeing this new man will give her that spark. THEN you can dictate the terms of reconciliation if that�s the path you wish to follow.

My guess is that you won�t want to expose yourself like that again.

Finally, don�t date. Don�t date for at least one year. Forget about woman and absorb yourself in your kids and your work. You�ll grow tremendously by doing so.

No worries...not another groundhog day!! This should probably be posted in the divorced forum, but I know this forum gets more traffic.

I'm looking for some advice on how to handle interactions with my ex. She clearly subscribes to the fantasy divorce school of thought, where we will still spend time together and thinks its good if our kids see us getting along together. Here is an example...our daughter who is in first grade has a school project where they are to pick a family picture and write a story about it. The instructions said that the picture did not have to be of your entire family...it could be just you, you and a sibling etc. So my ex prints off a picture from two years ago of all of us together.

I sent her a text saying that I didn't think we should use that picture because thanks to her and posom, that is not our family anymore and our daughter needs to accept that. She replied that is is good for her to see us together and that this is not hurting anyone. She also told me I need to stop being so angry. I replied that I am not angry at all. I just think we should be honest with our kids and that I have no desire to be friends with her or hang out with her.

She of course thinks I am crazy...she says she knows lots of divroced couples that get along for the kids sake. I was wondering if anyone here has some links to articles or other information explaining how to handle divorce with children. Or should I not even bother wasting my time with her? I just want to do what is best for my kids... Thanks!!

Boy, have I got a thread for you:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2279757&page=1


This is crazy backwards and is hurting your kids terribly by sending them a very, very warped message about what marriage and family really are. Please read the thread and see what you think.

What my suggestion for you handling your ex would be to Plan B her. Stop all direct contact with her, use an Intermediary.

Now, about your DD's project, have you read what she wrote? I would make sure that it said something like, "This is me with my mommy and my daddy. They got a divorce because my mommy had an affair. This is what my family used to look like." Okay, maybe not everyone would get their child to write something like that, maybe it's just ME.

You wouldn't be doing the wrong thing but NOT being friends with your Ex. You don't need to be friends with your Ex to be a good father. Take care of your DD, THAT's important.

Your XWW wants to be "friends" with you for two reasons:

1) To prove to herself that she didn't really do anything wrong. If you're still her "friend" then she didn't really hurt you that much - right?

2) To have in divorce what she wanted in marriage: Family time with you plus time with her boyfriend.

She is still in denial and still trying to cake-eat. As Scotty said, get an intermediary, go to Plan B and put a stop to this immediately if not sooner.

I agree that it is totally warped for her to suggest it is ok for our daughter to write a story about a family picture from before her affair. That is not our family anymore!! Just not sure if I can get her to see my point. My guess is she will never see things my way. That makes sense that she wants us to all get along and for me to attend her mothers 60th birthday party will of her family. I get along great with her family, but can't stand the thought of being around her. I know in certain situations (like our kids birthday parties) I will have to suck it up and deal with being around her.

On another note, what if she ever tries to bring OM to a kids' party. I don't think I could deal with that.

Who cares?? The woman lied to you, cheated on you and destroyed your and your children's family for some POSOM.

Now she wants to feel good about that and go on having family time when she needs a fix of that.

There is one consequence of destroying a family that she seems to have overlooked: NO FAMILY.

Please do not support her delusional fantasies in any way. You will only be doing a massive disservice to the kids if you do.

XWW was willing to destroy her/your family. Therefore, she doesn't have it any more and you are not about to pretend it does. End of story.

Why? Why torment yourself and send your children a false message that is really just a lie so XWW can feel good about what she's done?

Have separate parties. That's what Divorced means. You are no longer a family with XWW. By all means let the kids spend all the time with her they want, but NOT with you there. Families spend time together. You are no longer part of XWW's family and she is not part of yours.

Do you really want your kids to grow up with the idea that nuking your family and getting divorced is no big deal, because you still get to enjoy them when you feel like and can just go on cake-eating as long as you want?


See above. Problem solved.

That means that you have your own parties for your children's birthdays.

Hmmmm, so you think you can't ever get your Ex to see things your way, YOU ARE RIGHT.

You can't MAKE anyone else see things your way and trying to educate a wayward is POINTLESS.

The only things you can control are YOUR actions, so when are you going to start taking control of YOU?

Ed,

The best way to deal with her is to know when to choose your battles. If your ex printed out a picture for a school project, then let it be. You can�t control what she does and what delusions she fills her mind with, but you can control yourself and your own interactions.

I have similar issues with my ex. She comes to me about some major problem she thinks the kids are having. I listen, say little, and then do my own thing if I disagree with her or I go along if I agree, but I normally don�t opine much.

My ex might take this as agreement, but in reality it is just about not engaging.

You shouldn�t have said anything about the picture. Why? Because it shows her you still care to remain engaged and to try to educate her.

She is wrong. You can�t change that or convince her otherwise. Your DD could write about a family memory of a time when you guys were indeed a family.

Let your WW stay delusional, but the fact is that she is an ex. You shouldn�t interact with her at all unless it is an emergency or genuinely an important issue regarding your kids.

And have your own birthday parties for your kids.

You�re still emotionally entangled with your ex. You need to detangle, stop interacting, and move on.

Choose your battles. This wasn�t one worth engaging in. It takes time to learn which battles are worth fighting and which ones aren�t. Here�s a hint: Most aren�t worth fighting.

But seriously, you need to cutoff all contact with your ex unless things are an emergency.

Where do things stand right now with her? How often do you guys interact? Is she still living with you?

She�s the type of woman that will make your life a living he11 if you try to move on and have a relationship someday. She�s the type of ex wife that will have a fit if you ever remarry.

But seriously, move on. Let her go. Stop interacting with her.

Your interaction with her keeps her believing she�ll wear you down and keeps you from moving on. The last I checked, she wasn�t even sure she wanted to be with you because she didn�t feel some sort of �spark�.

So let her go. Don�t interact and if she ever gives you this �I need to feel a spark� thing, then kick her out, tell her you won�t tolerate being second fiddle to anyone, and that you aren�t going to settle for someone that is settling for you.

Watch how her tone will change at that point. She�ll suddenly feel a spark after you grew a set of balls and kicked her to the curb.

But don�t do it for that reason. Do it because she�s an evil manipulative woman that is using you and is emotionally immature.

She is living in her own apartment about 2 minutes from my house. I keep my interaction with her to a minimum and only with issues dealing with the kids. But I have noticed that she will e-mail or text me almost every day. Usually dealing with logistics of overnights, sick kids, snow days last week, etc. I am short and to the point when I reply.

I agree about picking my battles. I just felt that she needed a good smack over the head when she let our daughter use a "family" picture that is not her family anymore!! But I hear you...she is warped and living in a fantasy land. In one of my texts I told her I thought it was wrong to use the picture because that is not our family anymore. She replied... I know and I feel bad about it. I did not reply to her nonsense.

I like the idea of seperate parties for the kids. I know she will think I am crazy and tell me I need to get over my "anger" I know she will say its ridiculous...Do you invite all their friends to both parties? If thats a problem, maybe we take turns hosting the "kid" party...I'm sure we can figure it out.

I will continue to distance myself from her and avoid unnecessary interactions. I can't control her e-mail/texting random questions to me so I will continue to be short and straight to the point when I reply.

She is still seeing OM...her lives a couple hours away and comes up to visit just about every weekend. My guess is that the "spark" they had might be fading away... Regardless, I honestly don't care. I am a better person without her in my life.

Ed,

Learn to pick out which texts and emails truly warrant a response. Do you have a formal visitation schedule? If so, then there is very little need to really discuss at all. Remember the standard: Unless there is blood on the floor or someone is about to die, there is no need for you to interact.

The everyday parenting stuff is stuff that you and her need to figure out on your own.

Now, as far as your DD goes: That picture IS her family. She still has you as dad and still has her as mom. It may not be your status TODAY, but it is still your DD's status. See the difference?

If you have a formal visitation schedule, then stick to that. If you don't, then get one hammered out legally. There's otherwise little reason to stay engaged. Again, think of the standard: blood on the floor or imminent death.

I know many of you said this would happen as soon as I started acting divorced and like I did not care. But I wanted to get some thoughts on how to reply to the following e-mail from my ex-wife. I replied to a couple texts she send asking questions about our daughters homework, so this is what I get

why are you sending me messages on Valentine's Day? Not having a good date? Well, I had a great night with the kids. I loved being with them. They were very sweet and snuggly
We looked at DS's baby book and giggled quite a bit. It was cute. He was the cutest baby EVER.
Dont' you miss that stuff? Don't you ever feel weird with someone else? Just wondering...
Do you ever miss me? Do you ever just get a pang, and feel out of place, as though I should be there? just wondering...I wonder if Roxy (our dog) ever misses me. I miss her horribly. I want to see her and rub her ears

So I can't decide between 3 responses...

1) Completely ignore
2) Reply - but be brief and to the point. Basically say...no I do not miss you. You were a dirty skank ho who screwed another guy while we were married. You had your chances to make things right and did nothing to earn my trust back. So no I don't ever miss you.
3) Forward to OM (whom she is still dating) and tell him to control his girlfriend

Thoughts? I am leaning towards #1 or #3. #3 will really piss her off. I have done this a few other times and it always give me a good laugh. She tells me to quit being immature. I explain that I just want to be sure OM knows what she is saying and feeling. Her lack of communication already destroyed one relationship...

Hi Ed,
are you saying you WW is giving you mixed messages? That maybe she wants to R? Is this a very recent turn of events?
I see very recent posts from you where your WW is telling you that D people can be on friendly terms..and now she sends you a very disturbing email which sort of reveals she is nostalgic?
blessing

Hi there,
Part of me wants you to pick #3, the OM now deserves to know what she is capable of, if I were him I would worry........if she can cheat with you she can cheat on you.....a tangled web she weaves.......
But I think if there is any chance of recovery for you, if you even want that then I would just ignore her for now.............
I think maybe you are lucky she is gone from your life..........it looks like the OM might not be able to trust her either..........
But then he is a cheater too........I forgot for a moment, they might actually expect something like that.........
It's so sick to have to live that way..............so much for feeling safe in this world.
Your love for your son sounds so wonderful, focus on him and the pleasure you get out of that, I remember those days, when you just loved everything about them and thinking they are the cutest kid in the world..........okay got lost in my own little thoughts for a moment.
Be the best man you can be there are many rewards to that.............

She is just trying to control me and prevent me from moving on. She is not serious about a reconciliation. My guess is that she is upset that I am moving on and feels guilty about destroying her family.

We have been down this road before and it always winds up the same. She says things like in the e-mail above and maybe things can be better if we try...blah, blah blah. Then I give her a chance and she does nothing to earn my trust. No meeting of ENs, no transparency, etc. So I am not interested in going down this road yet again.

I am looking for advice on how to reply to this e-mail. I want to be firm and to the point, but am thinking I should also be respectful. She is very emotional and I am worried that things could get ugly as I continue to move on with my life.

If you are in Plan B you never should have gotten this in the first place. How did that happen?

No reply is the best reply. You are on Plan B and yes, she should not be able to email you directly.
If she is emotional....to bad for her. In plan B you should have implemented ways to protect yourself from her abuse.
blessing

Are you in plan B or D? If plan D (as in done) and no chance you want to recover telling the OM is the right thing to do. If your in Plan B (some folks who are divorced are)then ignore it.

I am in plan D - as in done with her. I told her that I we can discuss issues concerning the kids, but that I had no interest in being friends with her.

Then option 3.

email the OM just like this:

FYI

and the below that copy and paste your XWW email to you.

Blessing

I should clarify about plan D... the D was final almost a year ago. Last March...since then, we had one occasion where we spent some time together to see if things could get better. She talked to Steve Harley a couple times, but nothing came out of it. This was last September/October time frame. After two months of this, she began talking to e-mailing OM again because she missed him and there was no spark with us.

Ok, but from what you said you do not want to R the M so option 3 is the option for you.
She told you and showed you in many ways she is not interested in you and now it also seems, from what you tells us, that you are done with her.
However, if you feel like you want to tell something specific to your WW then go ahead and email her whatever you want...I think you have the right to that especially if you are not interested in R.
blessing

I would forward the email to OM, and copy it to her.

Hmm....

It's fairly obvious that the WW here is quite the manipulator and instigator, and is only throwing out bait to see what she can catch. IMO, the best response is no response at all, or even better, a reply about a COMPLETELY different subject, e.g. "How's the weather up there? Down here it's nice and sunny..." etc.. That should drive her crazy, LOL.

ed,

Have you thought about selling the house and moving away from your ex-crazy wife? I would. I could not be able to handle being around such a monster. She is Jeckle and the Hyde here. Or sublease your house (so you make profit) while you and your family move away? I don't mean to take your kids away from her but just think of the garbage she will be putting into their heads as the years go by.

My father-in-law divorced his cheating wife for the very same reasons. She would be cordial, nice, and act like she wanted reconciliation. Then, she would try to make the dad the enemy...

As a result my wife is a messed up person.... Did you know that my wife calls her every year on her parents former anniversary to yell at her????

Your kids don't need that toxic wretch... If you ever tried to move on she would sabotage your new love interest. I could see her popping your tires, stalking you, etc.

Just not worth the drama, not to mention she probably has a lot of STDs. The OM in her life is probably sleeping around when she isn't there... She is probably infected with STDs, why would you want to reconcile?

Eric

I agree she is not worth the drama. I just don't know that I could ever move away due to the divorce decree. My attorney told me that she can object to any move I propose in which case it would be decided by a judge. And the judge will base the decision on whats in the best interests of the kids. So unless, she truly goes crazy and starts slashing tires, stalking, etc. the judge would probably say I need to stay put. I have a good, stable job here as well so it would be a tough sell for me.

That being said, I agree that I need to distance myslef from her. I forwarded her e-mail from last night to OM with a note that he is either incredibly brave or stupid, but either way best of luck to him!

If she gets crazy I will put a restraining order on her and give serious thought to moving.

LoveCAG, this post is not helpful in the least. There is nothing to indicate that his ex is crazy. There is no reason to disrupt his children and take them out of their home, only to move to another house and have the conditions remain the same. And he has not indicated that he wants to reconcile - quite the opposite. I have no idea where you're coming from with all your STD talk.

ed, it sounds like XWW is still trying to have it both ways and wants to continue having two men feed her ENs. This is just an attempt at more cake-eating.

Ignore the messages, or else forward them to her boyfriend. Then get yourself an intermediary to use for necessary communication regarding the kids.

Plan B - it ain't just for married folks anymore.

well its too late to offer opinions -- since you did #3.

But I would have done a 2/3 combo. I would have responded to her with a strong "hell no, skank" and copied OM on it.

But 3 alone is good too.

I'd write her and say, "It's over. I'm moving on with my life. I don't want you back in my life no matter what. I will not be used by anyone ever again, especially by you. Leave me alone unless it's an emergency. You can figure out other parenting issues on your own. I don't get feelings of nostalgia for you. I don't miss you in any way. I don't want you back in my life in any way. Don't ask again. Everytime you do, I will forward it to any man you're seeing."

Then go dark and simply ignore any attempts by her to communicate.

Martital Bliss, I see nothing wrong with LoveCAG's post.

Sane people do not act like this. It is a common belief that WS's are affected by varying degrees of insanity, irrationality and poor decision making.

If his wife lives literally 2 minutes away, he might get more peace of mind not having her in such close proximity.

My apologies guys, I didn't mean to lose my cool

I'd say that this is NOT helpful:
Sure they do. She's their mother and she has visitation. Nothing like screwing up the kids even further by painting their mother as a 'toxic wretch.'


But he hasn't said a word about her stalking them, slashing tires, none of that. I've re-read his posts and don't see any point where he's uncomfortable with their proximity.

What he has posted are the actions of a typical wayward who wants to have and eat their cake. So he's going to remove his children from their home...why?

Ed has encouraged this. He responds to her emails. He responds to her texts. He divorced and then had her living with him less than two months later.

He has yo-yo'ed back and forth and left her so many openings that it's no wonder she's still riding the fence. He was still outlining what it would take to get back together, months after the divorce was final. This was not lost on his WW.

I suspect Ed would still want to try again. And I think she knows this.

I'm not used to defending the actions of waywards, but Ed, if you don't want her to text you, don't respond to her texts. Same with emails. I'm not even sure how she can have your email address at this point.

I happen to be the son of a toxic wretch. I am pleased that no contact was established with her many years ago in my life and has been mostly maintained.

I think waywards should forfeit the right to their children.

I don't think it helps children to try to encourage them to have a relationship with the person who torpedoed their family, although I don't think they should be prohibited from it, either.

I don't know the specifics of this case, just saying that I see nothing wrong on the face with the thought. Sure, all kids need a mother and a father, but some of us get stuck with a toxic wretch.

But that hasn't happened here. Ed's ex has privileges with the kids. And she's not a slavering lunatic. I've seen no post to indicate that she is an danger to anyone. She's just his ex-wayward. And she's getting a lot of signals from him that may be conflicting. Ed has not placed firm boundaries with her. For all we know, they could end up remarrying. Then the kids will really need an explanation.

So here was my crazy ex's reply to me after I forwarded her e-mail to OM.... She is truly insane.

i didn't tell you that I miss you, moron. I was just saying that I DO have a soul and I do feel bad for what I did.
Your response is just a perfect example of what a complete [censored] you are. I am happy to not be with you any more. Like I said, I couldn't even sleep when you were in the same bed with me.... You are a moron. Good riddance.

On another note, she has demonstraed some "crazy" behavior. She keyed my car after I called her a dirty skank while we were going through the divorce. She has some serious issues...not sure what to make of her. Personality disorder maybe? If the crazy starts to come out again, my lawyer will be in touch with her about taking away her visitation rights.

I read what she sent you and then read her psycho reaction to forwarding to OM.

Honestly, the best thing you can do in every way is ignore her texts unless they meet the criteria of someone about to die or there's blood somewhere.

If she calls, ask, "Is someone about to die? Is there blood somewhere? No? Then there's no need for us to talk."

Then hang up.

Do this enough times and she'll get the message.

I agree with helpthelostdads here, I just wouldn't engage in conversations with her..
Living a better life than the one you had with her is the best revenge. Do it enjoy it.........

Ooookay, I'm not so big that I can't admit when I'm wrong.
I guess she is a little crazier than a typical wayward.

.... i was so ready to go "gotcha" and then i see u already beat me to that last post.

darn you!

No you were right MaritalBliss. I think the crazy one is actually Ed himself. What's the old line about doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result?

Ed, you're divorced, yet you continue to let your XW walk all over you and to disrupt your life on a regular basis. What do you get out of this? I mean, you must get SOMETHING out of it to let it continue well after your divorce. It's like you are walking around with a sign on that says kick me.


Your words Ed. But actually it is YOU that continues walking down this road for whatever reason.

I think you misunderstood the context of what I was saying. She sent me her crazy email to see if the door was open to get back in my life. It is most definitely not. I have given her chances to make things right and it was always the same old story. I am NOT going down that road ever again.

I was just looking for guidance on how to deal with her insanity as I move on with my life. Forwarding the email to om seems to have put an end to her games for the time being. I will just ignore any craziness going forward and keep communication to issues involving the kids.

Ed, You've come a long way. It's a process. I'm glad you're at this point right now.

My advice is to stay away from women for a good while. Discover yourself again. Take music lessons. Learn to dance. Learn the guitar. Become a gym god.

It's all part of the healing process. Then, when you finally get comfortable not dating and just being alone and with your kids you'll find love again.

Just stay away from women for now. They're trouble in your current state of healing and you won't be able to objectively pick one to date and may hook up with someone you shouldn't.

Quote

Just stay away from women for now. They're trouble in your current state of healing and you won't be able to objectively pick one to date and may hook up with someone you shouldn't.

Very good advice, start with staying away from your XW.

No, I understood what you were saying. You're divorced Ed; usually the only contact with an Ex post-divorce entails short terse conversations about the kids, hand-offs at visitation times and random sightings at the mall. Doesn't sound like your situation now does it?

Change the locks on the door, tell her she ain't welcome chez Ed and move on with your life.