Ed,

You know what's I've said on your situation. Her issues are much deeper than what she thinks they are. Her need for love and attention, her complete lack of remorse, and her constant need for teenage level attention shows a massive amount of issues which will take years of therapy to fix.

This woman will break your heart again if her psych issues aren't fixed. This is not a woman who has had a normal marriage where she embraced motherhood and you and then fell by the wayside. This woman was broken well before you married her and her immaturity and psych issues won't go away. The complete lack of remorse from her tells me that she's manipulating you for as long as necessary until she can discard you.

I agree that her issues are much deeper than she thinks. I just talked to her and I asked her what changes I could make or what could I do differently. The only thing she could say was that I needed to give her little gestures of my love for her, such as surprising her with flowers or romantic dinners. She says this goes a long way in her mind. I just don't buy it.

She still shows no true remorse for her affair...Says she felt neglected and abandoned for years. However, she never discussed this with me. She claims that the affair was her way of letting me know things had to change...that I am so clueless that I would need something like this to open my eyes.

I do not feel that she will ever be able to recover with this mentality. I think I just need to be blunt with her and tell her that it is hopeless. Even if she makes changes, I would doubt that they were sincere and permanent.

Ed, this really is very simple but she keeps pettifogging the issue. You should give her another chance IF SHE CHANGES. She is trying to twist this into: "I may try to change if you do certain things." That is nothing, Ed. Saying "I might try" is not the same as making actual changes. You need to stick to your guns here or you are going to damn your self to a life a hell.

you have NOTHING TO LOSE and everything to gain if you go forward full speed with the divorce and just tell her if she changes, you will consider it. But, you are not stopping until you see some real change demonstrated over a long period of time.

She is a WAYWARD, ED, and what she is trying to do is negotiate the conditions of her return, under the false belief that she has LEVERAGE. She has no leverage, and negotiating with a terrorist is disaster.

Move forward, ED, and don't get distracted from your path unless and until you see REAL CHANGE. Otherwise, you will be WORSE OFF than you were before. You have no reason whatsoever to believe that anything will change.

WW came by the house last night to talk. Says she wants to work on things and is willing to cut off all ties with OM, commit to counseling and making changes. I am skeptical, but I actually hope she is serious. I do not want a divorce. I do not want my family torn apart. I think she needed to hear me say that there is hope for us if I see change. Otherwise, she felt like I was pushing her away.

I know I need to be careful about letting her back in. Right now, these are just words, not actions. I know I need to see actions. The first thing I need to be sure of is that she has cut OM out of her life. Then I need to see a sustained change in her attitude towards life, our relationship and the kids.

I guess one question I had is how do I know if she has changed if we are not living together. She is willing to give me all her cell records, e-mail accounts, etc. but she could still sneak around if she really wanted to. I guess I am looking for some advice on how to handle this. I do want her to change so that we can give things a chance.

She would have to figure that all out and demonstrate her trustworthiness over time. The worst thing you could do is take her back BEFORE she has changed, based only on an empty promise. Welcome to hell!

There is a huge difference between CHANGING and promising to change. Your wife wants credit for the latter, and you would be foolish to take back a liar based on a PROMISE. Her promises are worthless.

If WW is willing to give up OM tell her move back and Do everything she said. Hand over all passwords. Get new phone no. email, block OM, NC letter.

Tell her she must do this today.

If WW stalls, balks, tries to delay send her packing. Tell her this is what you want and will do.

I guess I am somewhat torn about the living situation. Living apart it will be much easier for her to continue her affair. But if she moves back in before she has made any changes then I am setting myself up for more pain. I feel like I need to give her at least a month living outside the house to demonstrate NC and some changes in her attitude and behavior.

Why are you even considering this when it is SO CLEAR she has not changed, Ed? If living apart enables her affair then you will KNOW she is not serious, don't you? Better for her to carry on an affair living somewhere else than with you.

Ed, she is not serious.

NOTHING HAS CHANGED! TALK IS CHEAP!!

Ed,

Melody is a champion of marriage on these boards. She tells people to stick it out long after many of us are advising for the BS to bail.

For Melody to see D as a realistic probability, even preferable, then that's something that should give you pause.

We are all for repentant waywards and want to see a recommittment to marriage. Your WW is manipulating in a massive way. She's telling you what you want to hear.

I was married to someone like her. She is broken, will continue to be broken.

That being said�..If she does commit to counseling, then you can and should get her an individual counselor. Meet with that counselor yourself and share your own feelings and theory on what you think is at the core of her problems. One of the things in the equation is her constant need for reassurance from men for herself and the possibility this comes from childhood sexual abuse. Identifying the problem is half the battle.

She then needs to see it for herself, be conscious of it, and hopefully deal with it.

Walk carefully into recovery, but never let your guard down.

Look for action, not words. Your children do deserve an effort to be made.

I agree that I need to keep her at a distance and be very careful. That being said, I would like to monitor her car with a GPS and a voice activated recorded. Any advice on the most affordable, effective ones out there??

Just spoke to WW. She told me she has cut off all ties with OM. It is over she says. So I guess now I wait and see. I have her cell records, e-mail and facebook. He has been blocked from her FB account. She is reading SAA and we are discussing counseling options. I guess these are encouraging actions, but obviously this needs to be sustained. It is all very very fresh.

She is coming over to the house with the kids Friday night and we are going to make dinner and watch a movie. I know I need to be cautious and go slow, yet at the same time I feel like we need to interact with each other so we can meet our ENs and so that I can see if she is serious about changes. I feel like if I ignore her and spend no time with her, she is going to be tempted to go back to OM.

In the meantime, I will continue to spy. She knows I have access to all her computer stuff and cell records so she would be a fool to contact him that way. I really want to get a GPS on her car and a VAR. I don't think she would ever suspect those and if she is lying to me I need to know.

Thoughts on the GPS and VAR?

Also place a keylogger on your computer without telling her.

When she said she is through with the OM where is she living now?

She is still living in her own place. I know that will be awfully easy for her to continue her affair if she wants. But many on the board here have advised that I should not welcome her back until the affair is over for good and she has demonstrated sustained changes in her behavior. I agree with this. If she is going to cheat one me again, better for her to do this living on her own. If she continues her affair, then obviously she has not changed and I am better off having not let her back home.

By George, I think he's got it!

I defintely need to step up my spying with her not living under my roof. Still looking for recommendations on a GPS and voice activated recorded. Or I could always just make her take a polygraph after a month or so.

I think a GPS is a capital idea !

Whatever you do, don't drop the divorce! I suspect that is the only reason she is doing this, to get you to drop the divorce because she knows you have her by the nads. If you drop the divorce, she will have achieved her manipulative objective and will soon be back to her usual crap.

WW came over last night and we just spoke a little while ago. She is dealing withdrawal...says she misses OM. They had a lot in common and so much fun together. I guess this is to be expected, right? At least she is telling me about it. I am trying to not be a jerk and just listen and trying to assure her she made the right choice. I think I just need to do my best to meet her ENs, so she feels like she did the right thing.

I am also still moving slowly and realizing there is a very good chance that she is not serious about recovery. I think she realized what a mess divorce would be and the thought of suffling the kids back and forth and me moving on with another woman makes her miserable. The problem is that there are certain things about our life together that make her miserable too. Part of me thinks that she is never going to be truly happy with herself...but I am willing to give her a chance here.

I am not dropping the divorce, but I think I need to put it on hold for the time being. I need to try to create an environment she wants to be around, and the threat of divorce I feel would just push her away and make recovery impossible.

Normal WW response during withdrawal missing her OM.

Sucks form the BH to have to hear it and not react.

But, why do you think they call it withdrawal?

You are making a huge mistake doing this before any changes have been made. The divorce should go forward until she has CHANGED. She has not changed. You have just rewarded her for DOING NOTHING other than make empty promises. The threat of divorce WILL NOT push her away. Removing that threat will endanger your recovery.

You are making a huge mistake.