Yes, it makes perfect sense because he is still a selfish, entitled wayward who just happens to not be in an affair right now. A repentant, loving former wayward would recognize that you have needs and be trying very hard to meet them for you.

As I've said for the last several months, I am very concerned about you.

Queenie,

what are your top EN's that your H isn't yet meeting?

I know you've mentioned SF before, so how is that going?

My very very top EN is O&H. Not so much the honesty bit, which I foolishly took for granted before the A, but definitely the openness bit.

I love it when people share with me. I love it when people offload their problems onto me. It makes me feel needed, wanted, trusted.

If those close to me don't share with me, I very soon feel disconnected from them.

Everyone else has said that you need to know what you need to know and when you know all you need to know, then the needing to know just stops. If it hasn't stopped, then there are things you still need to know. Mr QA needs to understand this.

I guess your need for O&H has just been on the rise without you realising it. If you are not getting the physical intimacy you need then you should at least have the emotional intimacy as a counterbalance.

My FWH, BB, has always struggled to meet my need for O&H because he felt he couldn't share his weaknesses with me lest I admire him less (admiration is his no 1).

Little did he know that I would admire him more for his ability to share himself warts and all with me.

I'm rooting for you Queenie. You ARE being the best you, you can be but with that comes the responsibility of understanding your worth.

You are a wonderful woman, worthy of great love. Now is the time to communicate your needs to your H, without expectation of a great turnaround, but with some expectation of empathy, love and understanding.

Get talking is what I say.

I won't disagree with you SMB. but I'm just being honest with myself. I'm not willing to walk away from the M today. I'm just not. I see my kids growing stronger and developing a better relationship with H. I have to give that to them. Even if it means I sacrifice for myself. I HAVE to do this for myself, that I gave my kids the chance to build a relationship back with their dad.

I might have set the bar too low, but I also set the bar for me. I NEEDED to correct who I WAS in this marriage. If he walks away then he walks away. I will be able to HOLD MY HEAD up HIGH knowing I was the best I could be. I didn't have that chance before.

I'm gaining my self respect back because of this. I had the second chance. I'm giving it my all and I can live with the results.

You are right. He is the same selfish wayward, out of the affair that he was before. I'm not blind to it. I'm just doing what I NEED to do for ME. I can't fix him, I can't control him, I can't make him do anything. But the bottom line is I love him. I keep praying for him, I see him taking PREMIE steps and it's enough today. Because my prayers to G-d were for just a chance.

Does that make sense?

Sere, I like your idea of talking to him. I can only keep trying and let G-d get through to him. I have expressed my needs and I do see progress I really do. I just want it ALL today and some days I get frustrated. Rather than take it out on him I wanted to come here and just post.

Please SMB don't give up on me, and thank you for worrying about me. My recovery doesn't look like yours, but it's recovery. There is SO MUCH different about our relationship. I love him enough to provide a safe, loving home to work through his crap and then let him go if the day comes. Not because I'm a doormat, but because I love him that much.

I think you are enabling him to remain the same.

But that's my opinion, and it's only worth .02

I'm not giving up on you, but I fear greatly that your husband will have another affair down the road.

This martyr thinking doesn't fly well with me.

Your husband's relationship with his children is his responsibility. He could have fixed that whether he moved back in with you or not. Their relationship is not something you control. He could fix that all by himself.

I get that you are not ready to end the marriage. I think you are HURTING your attempts at recovery by taking an attitude of sacrifice. You do know what Dr. H says about sacrifice and the damage it causes to a marriage, right?

Enabling him. I'm going to look at that. Change that, I need to pray on that and really look at this behavior.

Have an affair down the road. I KNOW that's a possibility and a HUGE RISK.

Here's the difference. I'm not the same person he would walk out on. I'm capable of taking care of myself. I won't have children left at home. I WILL be in recovery and I WILL KNOW it's on HIM.

If he is able to find the time and pull it off, my hat would almost be off to him. I check his phone records daily, I look at his cell phone to make sure it matches up. He is in almost constant contact, but more specifically in contact after work hours. He goes to meetings almost daily and he is at home or with someone I trust on the weekends.

I'm the one who is different. I'm not knaive, I ask questions and I share my concerns as they happen. I can't control him, but I certainly don't close my eyes.

Queenie, I don't think you are a doormat.

i think you are leading a good life and giving your FWH a chance to lead a good life WITH you.

If you are taking baby steps in the right direction then who are we to criticise the pace at which you travel? I had my bar for recovery. You have yours.

Please though, do raise the bar as you go on because I really do want to see your H appreciating what a gem he has in you and if you undersell yourself he may not.

You're still only 6 months out from reconciliation and I so understand you wanting your M so that the children can connect properly with their father.

BUT, the M is about the two of you and at some point you need to assert yourself and your needs and your H has to WANT to do whatever it takes to make you safe and happy.

Much love to you Queenie.

I'm not discounting what you are saying. But the reality is, I needed to do this for ME. Because I screwed up my children's life by MY ACTIONS and selfish behavior and I NEED to be able to walk away with a clear conscience.

I do know what he says. And maybe my marriage isn't recovering or I am hurting my attempts. My gut says I'm doing the right thing today. But it's only today.

I know Sere. And interestingly H doesn't see this recovery for the kids at all. It's about only US. He even presses me to change my wording when I mention it.

I actually understand what you mean by raising the bar and I'm working on that. You see, along with this M, I am still working on me. I live in a place that I absolutely LOVE, I'm continuing to go to my meetings, I am working on my food and I'm TRUSTING G-d.

I'm leaning towards your H as being correct Queenie. Your marital R is about you and H, that marital R will benefit your kids but they don't influence the R, the two of you do. Do you think having a more focused view on a couples R rather than a family R, your H would feel more responsibility on his part??

and on the sacrifice thing ..... to sacrifice having H back for the sake of the kids and their father's relationship, you may be robbing your kids
of learning what a loving M is, in turn they will gage their own relationships on yours and H's.

I may be off base here since I don't know your family dynamics, if I am, I'm sorry.

Hi Vittoria, I think what you say is really good thoughts.

I think that it is only natural that him building back his relationship with the children first is easiest at this point. I have truly thought about what everyone has said. I have learned to trust my prayers, where it takes me. My whole walk during this has been about trusting G-d.

I believe what my children are seeing and exeriencing are two people who love each other very much and want it to work. I don't doubt for one second believe that my H loves me and wants to be married to me. How can I say that? It's in the positive steps that he has taken. Its in his actions, it's in his willingness to keep trying. That is so different than before. He used to shut down on me, placate me etc. He doesn't do that anymore. He is much quicker to apologize for his actions. He is much quicker to look at his behavior and see where his part is and where he is wrong. He IS trying.

I believe with all my heart and soul that where I am, is where G-d wants me to be. I wouldn't be any happier single, raising my child alone or at least part time, and working towards a divorce. Yes, things aren't nearly as good as they could be, but I truly walk in FAITH for the future. And I will continue to TRUST my G-d that it will all work out to the good for me as long as I stay faithful to G-d.

Imagine this... the topic at my meeting tonight was about TRUSTING G-d. That's all I have to do today.

Hi Queenie! (JT waving while juggling an umbrella)

I hope you are not too drenched! I've been thinking about you a lot but with the end of the semester looming...work is crazy.

I'll be in touch.

Love you-

Hey Queenie, I miss you over at the other thread. How is everything going for you?

Love and prayers to you. I want to be here in recovery in God's time.

Hi Hope,

Life has been a little rough this week. Not because of particularly anything other than my mind, and for this alcoholic that's a very dangerous place to be.

Hope you are in recovery. It's just not like you are picturing. I also get what you mean. I personally hardly EVER came over here when I was still separated from Podge (my nickname for him). LOL I have to chuckle I could never come up with a good name for his during A, but now I think it's time to name him.

Good Shabbas, Mark, Sunflower, Bellevue, Pretty, Miriam

Happy Weekend to everyone as well.

There is a parent in my school who walked in and asked if we used facebook. Turns out she and her husband who have been very active in the marriage field are turning out a book next month on boundaries in marriage around facebook. Here is a little write up on it
What Every Facebooking Couple Should DO to Protect Their Marriage!

Create boundaries to protect yourself, your spouse and your marriage. Spend some time talking about what�s in bounds and out of bounds and as a couple, agree on what boundaries you�ll set as a couple. A little bit of agreement on what is and is not acceptable can save a lot of pain and disagreement later.


Set your relationship status to Married and keep it that way. Facebook�s version of the wedding band, your Relationship Status makes all the difference in how people interact with you. If you do happen to go through some marital troubles, don�t change to �it�s complicated� because you�ll only make things even more complicated�in a bad way.

Update each other on your FB Friends and Friend Requests. Friends range from past childhood pals and classmates to current connections from work, church and elsewhere. Many of your FB Friends have a story attached to them. Don�t assume your spouse knows how you know them; spend time sharing their story with your mate.

Share your username and password with one another. Transparency is crucial to ensure trust in a committed relationship. Exchanging login information provides accountability and emotional security for both of you

Make your spouse the topic of your Status Updates at least once a week. Using Facebook to affirm and build up your spouse creates a deeper bond between the two of you, and a higher fence around the two of you. (Just be careful not to overdo and become an annoying couple.)


Be prepared to talk offline about online issues. What happens on Facebook doesn�t stay on Facebook. Facebook can and will trigger issues and conversations between you and your spouse: a poorly worded joke, an awkward comment by a FB Friend, or an unexpected chat session. Deal with hurt feelings or concerns in the privacy of your own home. If handling conflict is difficult for you and your spouse, attend a Marriage Education class to acquire a shared set of communication/conflict resolution skills

What Every Facebooking Couple Should NOT DO to Protect Their Marriage!

(DON�T) Write cutting remarks or negative statements about your spouse. Even though Facebook asks, �What�s on your mind,� it doesn�t mean everyone really wants to know the answer to that question. If in doubt, think about how your comments will be read by others (think about your mother-in-law, your boss, your pastor) before pushing the Share/Comment button.

(DON�T) Friend exes, old flames, past flings, former crushes or anyone you�ve been intimate with in the past. What starts as an innocent, �I wonder whatever happened to so-and-so� can lead to �I never meant for this to happen.� Friending exes� invites an unnecessary threat into your married life that can cause any or all of the following: anxiety and insecurity for your spouse, friction and isolation in your marriage, and unrealistic and senseless ideas in your head. If staying FB Friends is a bad idea for a broken up (dating) couple, then it�s a really, really bad idea for married couples.

(DON�T) Lose track of how much time you spend on Facebook. Everyone needs a little down time to unwind each day. Facebook can be a great way to wind down (e.g. connect with FB Friends, play games, find Groups and Fan Pages, etc). On average, users spend 12-15 minutes a day on Facebook. That seems like a healthy dose of daily Facebook intake. If time on the online social community infringes on your real-time marriage relationship, make changes to reprioritize your time. Set a timer for 15 minutes and then log off Facebook and turn off the computer.

(DON�T) Report that you or your spouse is out of town. This is more security than anything else. Say your husband is on a business trip and you post an update that he is out of town. What you think is a harmless Status Update is an announcement to the bad guys that your home, possessions and family are vulnerable and a prime target for bad things to happen. Do you really know all of your FB Friends? How about their Friends? A FB Friend�s comment to your Status Update can unknowingly broadcast your �my husband is gone� news to a bunch of people you really don�t know.

(DON�T) Have private Chat sessions with people of the opposite sex. Chats are a private, real time message exchange between two people. Once a person logs off, Chat sessions are erased forever. Emotional affairs have three main ingredients: secrecy, chemistry and intimacy. Chatting provides a perfect environment for the three ingredients to mix together and create a situation that supposedly �just happened�. Avoid the drama and turn off the Chat feature altogether.

(DON�T) Let Facebook be a distraction during your time with your mate. Not only can writing a Status Update steal time from your couple time, but reading someone�s bad news can steal your mind from your special time together. Make date nights, special moments, and times of intimacy Facebook-free. No laptops, no computers, no smart phones when it is time for you and your spouse.

�������������������������������.

K. Jason and Kelli Krafsky have been married since 1994 and have co-authored Facebook and Your Marriage (their first book together due out in February 2010). Jason also authored Before �I Do� � Preparing for the Full Marriage Experience, an interactive premarital book for engaged and seriously dating couples. Jason and Kelli live in the foothills of Washington�s Cascade Mountains with their four children. Contact them at kjasonk@fullmarriageexperience.com, on Twitter or through Facebook.

Find out more about the Jason and Kelli and their marriage efforts at their website (FullMarriageExperience.com) and blog (MarriageJunkie.com).

Sign up to be one of the first to know about the release and pre-press sale of our book, Facebook and Your Marriage by email, Facebook, or Twitter. (Your pick).

Copyright � 2009 K. Jason and Kelli Krafsky � Permission granted to use and reproduce with proper source citation.

I realize that some of this needs to be tailored and in our situation we might be passed the point of using facebook, but these were really good suggestions.

Here's the other cool part - As I was telling her about me and Podge she told me that her H was VERY active in the marriage counseling arena and I mentioned to her about MB. Turns our her H does some work for them in some capacity.

Anways, she recommended some various ways of getting Podge a little more on board in the actively building a new relationship. Where I have to say we have come the HUGEST is almost totally eliminating LB or addressing them as they come up. From where we were to today, this is HUGE... And I for one am so grateful.

But we aren't where we could be and I continue to search for ways to get him on board. Which he is open to. So one of the suggestions was a DVD called Laugh Your Way to a Better Marriage.

I'll keep you posted.

Laugh You Way to a Better Marriage... I look forward to your review.

Have a great weekend, Queenie, and I hope the rough week ends today. Or better yet, a minute ago.

Take care and don't forget your raincoat.

Sounds good good good Queenie. Have you posted about the book on the facebook thread?


i look forward to that review too

Much love coming your way across the ocean Queenie.



I love reading your updates.

Oh thanks Seren... No stay, not yet. Working my way there.

Yesterday was absolutely the most magical evening. Wow, I'm still in awe of what G-d did.

I met up with someone who is married to a possible alcoholic. The reality is I know that no one but this person can decided if they are or not. But their drinking is a huge problem in the house. I met with her and then Podge joined us. He openly talked about his A, his feelings, the lying, the game, the wayward mindset, and his path of recovery etc. I was just floored.

I can't explain the force of us together was just incredible. Our egos hopefully in check because we openly talked about the continuing efforts to grow and become all we can become. It was very cool.

But what fascinated me and I haven't had a chance to revisit. He talked about how he completely shut down his emotions the night he left. And he mentioned that there were two times when he felt. One was when I delivered the "goodbye" letter (Plan B letter and then we got sidetracked. Hopefully I will get the opportunity to ask him more in depth.

Then we went to AA meeting. And then came home and played cards with the boys and OS's GF. We had so much fun laughing. In fact I was laughing so hard... well you get the picture. I have thought about the words sacrificing.

Maybe my marriage isn't where it could be, but am I sacrificing for my kids. I would argue that I wanted this family all along and I am finally getting to enjoy what was so important to me. And for that I say amen.

Shabbat shalom. I'm off to go watch the boys play lacrosse.

There was a discussion on Ivetz's thread a while back, it was about sacrificing, and the repercussions that it has in M.
6yrs. had a good question, this is not quoting him since I can't remember his exact words, but the jist was ......
'isn't the BS sacrificing themselves when they take the WS back?'.

My take was 'yes', we do sacrifice our integrity, our worth and our faith in our spouse .... initially.
A huge consideration that I took into account for saving my M, was my kids. I understand what you are saying.

The difference, I think, is that it becomes apparent in time, that it is not a sacrifice anymore if the WS becomes a FWS, in actions and thoughts.
The time frame would be the clincher, and every BS would have their own time frame with when to judge this.

I sacrificed, initially, and I'm glad I did. I don't feel like I am sacrificing anymore. I don't feel like I am giving up my well being for the sake of the kids to have their father around, since I am feeling safe in my M.
(as safe as I can one yr. out)

Shabbat Shalom, Queenie...