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#2306292 01/15/10 11:53 PM
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I have just come to a point after 6 years together 3 years married that enoughs enough and i deserve to be treated better.

My husband and i have been reading the his needs her needs book to try and resolve our problems and i have come to the honesty and openess topic.

I dont trust my husband after lies about sleeping with women who he didnt sleep with lies about borrowing money from people he didnt lies about stupid little things right up to big things. He even admitted that he made this complete story up about some girl and losing her leg.

I have actually caught him having sex with another women and he has given me three different reasons for it to start with it was my fault.

I dont get why he lies about things that dont happen that he know would hurt me. He expected because i should love him unconditionally i should just trust him again. I have pointed out Dr Harleys methods to restoring trust and he agrees but then gets very angry when i do tell him i dont trust him or check up on him.

Can the born liar change? I know in the book dr harley says that during middle age it improves my husband is 45!!

Feeling rather lost i have agreed to give him a chance to fix our marriage but finding it hard to get past the lies and mistrust.

I have spoken to a counsellor about my personal issues who has said why do i stay with an emotionally abusive person would it be a rash decision to leave know?


Me 25years
H 45years
6years togther
3year married
3 boys 5, 4 and 3
Standing at the door of divorce but not sure if i am ready to knock
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Hi Meislost, Welcome to MB. Weekends are slow, especially holiday weekends. But, as you see I registered and began posting exactly 3 years before you on a holiday weekend. I don't post much now but your title caught my eye because I was in the same boat as you for over 3 decades. (Story in my Saga linked to my sig line.)

Originally Posted by meislost
I have just come to a point after 6 years together 3 years married that enoughs enough and i deserve to be treated better. Like you, I felt the same way, but I wanted a scripturally justifiable reason to get out of our M. For years, I had tried everything to make him change (marriage books, tapes, cds, seminars, retreats, advances, workshops...etc.) but I gave up and detached when we got into a fight at a marriage conference after 30 years. When he had an affair during our 32nd anniversary, I was actually glad that my "out" had finally come and I was ready to accept his offer of "giving me everything including the house, cars and a quiet divorce." But I changed my mind when challenged by our then-20-something son who begged us to 'fight for our family' first before going to Plan D.

My husband and i have been reading the his needs her needs book to try and resolve our problems and i have come to the honesty and openess topic. When we did the EN questionnaire, O & H was my #1 and it was my then-WH's #10.

I dont trust my husband after lies about sleeping with women who he didnt sleep with lies about borrowing money from people he didnt lies about stupid little things right up to big things. He even admitted that he made this complete story up about some girl and losing her leg.

I have actually caught him having sex with another women and he has given me three different reasons for it to start with it was my fault.

I dont get why he lies about things that dont happen that he know would hurt me.

HNHN describes the 4 main reasons liar's lie:

1: To make them feel/look good.
2: To get out of a problem.
3: To try to protect the other from potential hurt.
4: Compulsion.

My then-WH did the first 3 for 50+ years and I was fearful that he qualified as an unchangeable compulsive liar. In fact, after D-Day #3, I insisted that he be evaluated for it (the psychiatrist said he still had a conscience so he did not qualify as #4...he merely needed to decide to change and be held accountable....by my snooping/checking, etc).


He expected because i should love him unconditionally i should just trust him again.
He needs to be educated; unconditional love will almost always lead to enabled lies. (Some say it ALWAYS does, but I'm sure there may be one exception to the rule.)

I have pointed out Dr Harleys methods to restoring trust and he agrees but then gets very angry when i do tell him i dont trust him or check up on him. My then WH got angry, too....because he was still secretly in touch with OW (but he didn't think there was anything wrong with it because they no longer were having phone/cyber sex). He pretended to want me to check up on him but had only gone further underground. I can't be sure, but your WH might still be involved with one/more OW.....that might explain his anger. Or he could be gaslighting you out of pure habit and his own insecurities (trying to make himself feel good by making you feel bad).

When he truly wants help changing, he will welcome your help with a good attitude. Until then, you'll need to make your plan so that if/when you can no longer endure his lies, blameshifting and gaslighting, you will have a way to get out and be able to take care of yourself/family.



Can the born liar change? I know in the book dr harley says that during middle age it improves my husband is 45!!

Feeling rather lost i have agreed to give him a chance to fix our marriage but finding it hard to get past the lies and mistrust.

I have spoken to a counsellor about my personal issues who has said why do i stay with an emotionally abusive person would it be a rash decision to leave know?

My opinion of your first question is "maybe". If he is a true compulsive liar with a seared (or no) conscience, he will need extensive therapy for a very long time and there may still be no hope for him to change.

In our case, my then-WH was a born habitual liar for the 3 other reasons. How did he change? Our very tough MC nailed him between the eyes in front of me when he tried to lie to him (but I had emailed the truth to MC in advance). Plus, the fact that I sat by quietly in that MC session (and didn't interrrupt him before MC did) showed my then-WH that I was capable of changing and didn't need to keep piling on and piling on when I had a point to make.

My perspective on your second question "would it be a rash decision to leave now?" is "it depends". (I'm assuming you have no children but that is another factor to be considered.)

* Have you tried to deal with his affairs? (Exposure, NC ~ no contact ~ letter, etc.)

* Do you want to save your marriage? (If you do, have you read all the articles and free resources available on this website?)

* Are you willing to educate yourself and find out what aspects YOU might need to change? (You can only control YOURSELF...you can't make him change.)

* Will you commit to working hard (learning, changing, growing...etc) to fix your relationship for many weeks, months, or possibly years?

* If your answer is "no" to any of the above questions, do you have a plan if you were to give up and leave?

If all your answers are "no", then my opinion (from having been in your shoes) is that it would be a rash decision to quit and leave now. You'll need to plan your work and then work your plan either way.

3 years into recovery, my now FWH (former wayward husband) says that he decided he wanted to change because he saw the changes I was trying to make. No, I didn't make him change, but I enticed him to want to choose to change by changing myself. Does that make sense?

Hope that helps. Be patient on this quiet holiday weekend....many others will be by to help eventually.

Best wishes in your efforts,

Ace


FWH/BW (me)57+ M:36+ yr.
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As someone who used to be a horrible liar, climaxing with my A in 2006, I would say it depends. I didn't ALWAYS lie; I had a terrible "talent" for knowing when and how to tell the truth as well. And I did lie about dumb things. "Did you go by the dry cleaners?" Instead of, "no, I forgot, I'll go right now," my automatic response would be yes while making a mental note to go ASAP and hope they got the coat done quickly. Stupid.

I could go into why I think I had such a problm with this, and I will detail that if you want, but in the final analysis, I am not sure it matters. The deal was, it was wrong, and it needed to stop. Period.

I think someone can change this pattern/truly change IF:

They take FULL responsibility for their actions
They have a change in heart/mind
They humbly agree to full, lifelong accountability
They practice honesty in EVERY facet of life

Without any of the above, a new trend of "honesty" is just another phase of trying to get out of what they have done. An indivudual lie may only take a few seconds to tell, but a pattern of deception that lasts for years and is a lifestyle will take a lifetime to rebuild. That is part and parcel for being a liar, and someone who wants to change needs to know this going in. They can't just "be good" for a month or a year or a decade; it's FOREVER.

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Originally Posted by lurioosi2
I could go into why I think I had such a problm with this, and I will detail that if you want, but in the final analysis, I am not sure it matters. The deal was, it was wrong, and it needed to stop. Period.

I think someone can change this pattern/truly change IF:

They take FULL responsibility for their actions
They have a change in heart/mind
They humbly agree to full, lifelong accountability
They practice honesty in EVERY facet of life

Without any of the above, a new trend of "honesty" is just another phase of trying to get out of what they have done. An indivudual lie may only take a few seconds to tell, but a pattern of deception that lasts for years and is a lifestyle will take a lifetime to rebuild. That is part and parcel for being a liar, and someone who wants to change needs to know this going in. They can't just "be good" for a month or a year or a decade; it's FOREVER.

Well said !!!

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thanks fro all your replies
To Ace yes we have children 3 oldest is 5 second is 4 and third is almost 3 these lies are creating problems with them cause he wont even be straight with them children asks lots of questions and when they ask was colour a green pencil is he will say it blue or will point to a bear and ask wat it is he will say its a dog etc stupid things.
I also understand wat u say about needing help with live remote Central QLD Aus there isnt to many options for counselling and he has decided the local ppl being through an organisation run by the catholic church are hypocrites so is he justified even though he hasnt meet them or tried or is he not commited to change.
He says he has accepted his mistakes and apologises from hurting me and wants to change but am i getting a smoke and mirrors so i dont leave which i have said to him i was gonna do if things dont change.
i understand the point about changing my habits will encourage him to change the only thing with this is he is a very emotionally controlling man and i have been beaten down to do as he want when he wants and felt i had no other options after moving 8 times in 6years i have no friends i can turn to for a little support. Sorry maybe i am rambling.

Last edited by meislost; 01/16/10 04:48 PM.

Me 25years
H 45years
6years togther
3year married
3 boys 5, 4 and 3
Standing at the door of divorce but not sure if i am ready to knock
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,312
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meislost......I saw where you posted a question on the Romantic Experiences forum below which has very few viewers. It might be a good idea to move/copy that post to this thread and keep all your questions on one thread in the beginning.

If you need technical help, just ask. Keeping to one thread helps posters understand your story better. Also, be patient as it's a holiday weekend and not as many posters are active on weekends, especially those on American holidays.

Ace


FWH/BW (me)57+ M:36+ yr.
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I can't get my head around "born liar".
Can an infant be born with the propensity to lie?
If "yes", then aren't we all born as future liars?

I know this might seem like nitpicking.
I think the choice of words "born liar" is an important and revealing choice.
I think this choice of phrase assumes there is no hope. AKA automatic failure.
AKA = giving herself a green light to leave, or something else.


Last edited by Pepperband; 01/17/10 01:42 PM.
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Originally Posted by Pepperband
I can't get my head around "born liar".
Can an infant be born with the propensity to lie?
If "yes", then aren't we all born as future liars?

I know this might seem like nitpicking.
I think the choice of words "born liar" is an important and revealing choice.
I think this choice of phrase assumes there is no hope. AKA automatic failure.
AKA = giving herself a green light to leave, or something else.


On page 97 of HNHN, Dr. Harley lists The "Born" Liar first. He says that "From an early age, he has continually told small lies about inconsequential matters."

The last sentence of the paragraph says "Some of these men begin to improve during middle age and feel a certain guilt for their past dishonesty, but others remain dishonest the rest of their lives."

From my own experience, I would have probably given up and left (or kicked him out) had my then-WH been officially diagnosed as a chronic "born" liar with little hope of ever changing.

Ace

P.S. Many feel that babies are born with the propensity to lie/cheat etc. unless corrected by outside forces i.e. parents/family. Unfortunately, my FWH learned to lie from his parents.


FWH/BW (me)57+ M:36+ yr.
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Maybe telling my story would help i dunno its long and lengthy but i am having a real hard time with everything is there some where in particular to do this?
These lies are really eating at me cause i have discovered more and more of late and i am torn between believing him or believing my mum.
What gets me most is he always said how much he hates lies then chronically has lied. Our kids are starting to pick it up to which bothers me alot. But what gets me most is i know i am fallible i am not perfect and i tell the odd lie but i was always really honest with him he would open my mail go through my phone read my emails i had nothing to hide even tryin to stash a bit a cash away so we would have some saved money made me guilty and yet he has spun this really twisted web of lies for many many years.
I have very low self esteem and i feel like trash after things he has said and done and the way he has treated me. I find myself all day thinking what will he think if i do that how will he react if i say that. I have climbed in a shell not even game to say i am tired i am going to bed. He has that much control over me emotionally.
Can this change i feel i am always on egg shells and paranoid what mood will he come home in what will i have forgotten to do what will i have done wrong this time.
I am at the point where i think its all in my head. I wondering if even if my needs are met will i actually feel safe around him or will i still do and act exactly how i think he wants me to.

Last edited by meislost; 01/17/10 07:38 PM.

Me 25years
H 45years
6years togther
3year married
3 boys 5, 4 and 3
Standing at the door of divorce but not sure if i am ready to knock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 15
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I have been reading HNHN and i totally understand how males feel that sex is so important and i have always tried to accomodate this with my husband.
I know there is no magic number but when is sex more of an addiction then an initmate way of showing how u feel?
For 6 years me and my husband have had sex close to every night i am really being honest and if i wasnt in the mood he would say help me have a wank or a head job would be nice. It wouldnt matter if i was dog tired or feeling unwell or pregnant (three kids and three years leaves one very exhausted mum)!
I do accept that to a certain degree i did just give him my body and didnt really engage in it with him, but when it was the same way every night- which was have shower i wash him(he didnt do it back) when i got out he would be laying on the bed watchin porno i would stimulate him then he would jump on (i am sorry for being real blunt) also i guess i started to turn off when he would talk about having sex with other people and how much he wanted to have a three some with me.
If i said no not in mood i would just be annoyed till i agreed and as i have said in another post my husband is a very emotionally controlling and i didnt feel i could say no.
After going through the book there still isnt alot of get me in the mood affection from him, we arent having sex as often and i did agree that if he still feels un satisfied then he could look at pornos on internet (i was just happy to be left alone).
It doesnt make me feel good that he does look at porn i feel i fail to satisfy him he says he likes just getting affection but rarely is it ever just affection or returned.
He said to me last night i am gonna stay up watch some porn and try and have a wank i feel horny so i went to bed. He comes in about 10mins later says internets to slow is it okay i watch some porn DVDS. I did my very best to not take this as a personally snipe at me and be manipulated into helping him.
Is there place for pornos in a marriage? Should i accomadate him with a "wank" or oral sex because i am not in mood or if its not an appropriate time of the month?? I dont see why i should when it feels like i am just there to entertain his needs.
How can i address these things with him especially when i am scared of him??
I know alot of ppl who read this would probably be shaking their heads wondering why i have put up with this but in my defence i am quite alot younger then my husband and was and have been very naive and thought things were normal cos that is what he kept telling me and i didnt know any different.


Me 25years
H 45years
6years togther
3year married
3 boys 5, 4 and 3
Standing at the door of divorce but not sure if i am ready to knock
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Quote
I do accept that to a certain degree i did just give him my body and didnt really engage in it with him, but when it was the same way every night- which was have shower i wash him(he didnt do it back) when i got out he would be laying on the bed watchin porno i would stimulate him then he would jump on (i am sorry for being real blunt) also i guess i started to turn off when he would talk about having sex with other people and how much he wanted to have a three some with me.


I don't think this is normal. It sounds like your WH is a sex addict. The high need for SF added with the need for porn indicts addiction. Here's what Harley writs about addiction to porn:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5050a_qa.html

Gg


D-Day #1 Aug/2007.
D-Day #2 1/27/12
Legally Separated

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