GloveOil,

Thanks for the comments..Neice isn't our nanny...she works for my business. She is a good employee...I signed a contract with her High School (she's in some sort of work program) and she will be done in May and off to college.

Having said that, I understand what you and Married are saying. And I will think about it...

But my WH wants to spin things and deflect onto this poor girl. WH life would be much easier if neice were gone because then there is no one to catch him in lies.

Just remember that WH (and I know he's reading my thread)didnt have any interest in getting rid of the Motor home, boat, cars, house, etc they had sex in....I PROMISE SLEEPING IN THE SAME BED WAS A MUCH BIGGER "TRIGGER"

But, I will think about what you said...

If niece is a Mole and is loyal to OW's Husband, not OW....
Then I would probably keep her around for Intel

Exactly.

Is it "fair" to the OWH's niece that she gets let go? Maybe not, but h*ll...NONE of this is fair. There is NOTHING fair about adultery, not to anyone. It's a shame the niece will lose her job but you are risking YOUR sanity by continuing to employ her.

There are no excuses good enough to keep her around. Don't worry, there will be plenty of people here who will ream your H to come clean with it ALL (and Steve Harley will coach both of you on how to go about this) so that aspect of it will go away. You may not be getting accurate info from her either, if it is coming from POSOW who is a lying manipulative scumbag.

He is right in that the niece needs to be let go, but he is WRONG in holding onto info that you need.

Can someone post Joseph's letter to both hbh and her H? I don't have time right now...

The niece needs to go. She is continued contact with OW, regardless of whose side she's on.

I am sure these were big triggers as well (and what a dumb*ss he was for not wanting to get rid of those things), but this is a PERPETUAL reminder ~ day in and day out.

You won't realize the benefits of having her gone until it happens.

Waiting until May is a huge mistake. You will be fit to be tied by then.

GACK,

Neice is loyal to me...

Here is the stich...OW is really a sociopath and OWH's famliy knows it...she has had mutliple affairs in within one year of marriage...OWH family and our famliy were VERY close, they all want the best for me and my kids. OWH family even loves WH...just wishes (like we all do) this would have never happen.

I haven't read his post, but from what I see, I feel like he's said neice and I sit around and talk about OW everyday, its just not the reality.

I realize that having her as an employe is not perfect...but everyone at my office knows...thanks to WH. I can't fire everyone.

HNH,

I need to go to a meeting in a moment, but I have been reading along.

Several things strike me as odd, if niece works for your company how can she be telling you things about your H? Your H has NC with OW, OWH, and wants NC with niece.

It also seems to me that while your H was NOT innocent in this by any means, he was also the victim of OW's need to either destroy your life or go after your H. She was/is leaving her H to do this. It does sound as if she is a sociopath, but given that you cannot trust what she has said about the A or the details of the affair as her avowed goal is to break you two up. You need to think about this. Oh! and your business failing will suit her just fine as well.

You will NOT get the truth from your H until he feels safe in telling you the truth. Not safe in the sense that you will hear and forgive all immediately, but safe from emotional abuse which you have been heaping on him. It does not matter if he deserves this or not, it is abuse and it is counter to your needs and goals. Thus, you are where you are.

Next I will point out something to you. Anger and rage are secondary emotions generated by: fear, pain, anxiety, frustration, etc. Clearly your anger is driven by one of these emotions which one is it?

Your H's response suggest his anger is driven by fear. What does he fear? You of course, losing the family of course, and that his shameful acts will become even more public.

I know this sounds weird right now, but you need to step back and protect yourself and one effective way to do that is to stop attacking your H. You will be in a much better position to gain the data you need, to settle down and make effective decisions, and even decide if you really want this marriage or not.

Oddly, right now the ONLY thing you know for sure is that your H does want this marriage or he wouldn't have endured what you are putting him through.

You have choices to make and they need to be made with a level head and real focus on your goals. It will be awhile before you are there, but start to step back and view this situation from a different perspective.

I have never said this before to anyone on this site and that is after over a decade here. It seems your marriage was/is under attack from the outside. Your H succumbed to his own failures to have boundaries or protect boundaries. Clearly the marriage had its weaknesses.

All of this can be overcome with the tools in Harley's approach to rebuilding and recoverying marriages but there is no magic you and your H will have to do some heavy lifting.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

I just read more posts...I will talk to neice mom today and see what can be done about her class.

"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)

Thanks drgnfly!

JL,

Thanks for the post...I think for WH...his anger is from fear...fear of losing everything...I own everything, I own the business, he doesnt even know the banks where our money is at...I know he's afraid of losing the kids...maybe of losing me, although its hard for me to accept that he ever cared about me at all at this point...

My anger is harder to pinpoint from me...Maybe Harley can help...Picture this:

I am self-made, never had help from anyone, put myself thru college ( and I went all the way)...built a business I am very successful at, had three perfect kids, a perfect husband (our last vacation before PA, we were actually asked if we were on our honeymoon...married 6+ years)...I loved everything about my life...

And then the person who I trusted most took it all from me...and it wasnt enough to have an affair...he had to do it with our nanny, in our bed, in our kids room, at the office...read my earlier posts...and then he had to BRAG to all our friends..and by friends, i even mean acquant's....think doctors, personal trainers, etc...everyone that would high-five a 40 y/o for banging a 20-something...then he had to tell everyone at my office...

I just have to stop now, I am not going to re-write what I wrote to Pepper about the kids because I am seriously going to hit him...

My point is this...I am SO not a counselor or psychologist...but I think I am angry because I am freaking angry....He was cruel and twisted and he didn't have to be....

HBH,

I guess there is good news. He has no role in your life and you can crush him like a bug financially as he apparently has no role financially in the family. Since you have a Nanny, I am guessing he doesn't do much to support you does he?

So explain to me again why love him or he would think you love him as he has no role in this family from what you just said?

Please understand something. I am NOT justifying what he did. I am just trying to figure out what role he had in your life and why he would be important to you.

I am sure with your track record of success and independence, there is not much space for failure is there?

Point being, where does he fit?

Please think about it.

God Bless,

JL

Is WH jealous of you? Seems like in his warped mind he wanted to go out of his way to take you down a few notches or raise himself up a few.

HBH,

""and then he had to BRAG to all our friends..and by friends, i even mean acquant's....think doctors, personal trainers, etc...everyone that would high-five a 40 y/o for banging a 20-something...then he had to tell everyone at my office...""

This sounds so totally unbelievable...was this before Dday or after Dday?? If it was before, then the boy has some kind of death wish, knowing it would get back to you...and if it was after, then where does the remorsefulness and the wanting to rebuild come in?

Thinking more about it, it must have been before... so his attitude is the most "male chauvinistic piggyness / women are for one thing and one thing only" view of life which explains his "get over it" and "quit living in the past" sweeping it under the carpet & get on with our lives response to you.


HE HAS NO IDEA WHAT HE HAS DONE!!

The waywards NEVER know the BS's feel of it.

Stay strong, vent here as much as you can.

{{{{HBH}}}}},

I'm going to take this in a bit of a different angle for a sec....so bear with me.

I KNOW your pain.....

I KNOW your anger....(God help me I DO....Angry Outburst's I am queen of....)

I KNOW your frusteration.....

I have been where you are TODAY....

That being said,

What have you done for HBH???....

I would seriously consider going STRAIGHT to your Dr. and tell them what you are going through. What you are dealing with. Are you currently taking any meds. or AD'S?....

If not, I would look into that option. It is not a sign of weakness to get medicinal help in dealing with the he77 that you are in. It is a sign of strength to know when we need it.

Even if you don't think you need to go that route, you should get a physical anyway. This is a HUGE stressful time that WILL take a toll on your physical health as well as your mental health (I lost a gall-bladder by the time my H's affair was over..... ...nothing like losing body parts...). I HIGHLY recommend you do this.....

As far other ways to help manage your anger.....

Excercise....I like to suggest a kick-boxing class and also some yoga. The kick-boxing is a GREAT way to get out that pent up frusteration and anger. For a LONG time, I would imagine H or OW when vigorously punching..... ....the yoga helped to clear my mind of all the crazy-making

Talking LONGGGGGG walks when a fight would ensue......getting that breather would help me to get my thoughts together so I could get calm instead of enraged....

Long DRIVES.....

SPA TREATMENTS!!!!!!....pedi anyone???...

Anyway, these are a few things you can do in order to help HBH. It is most important that you take care of YOU. Your kids need that......

I am truly sorry for your pain.....

not2fun

oooooooooooh, he wants you to view his rutting in the pig pen with a pig as beautiful and romantic. That is very fuzzy, foggy thinking, and of course you couldnt change your belief system to accept this unless you a) got a lobotomony or b) took massive doses of narcotics to anesthesize your left brain.

Is he still spinning his filthy affair in this light? If so, I can see a big part of the problem.

Raven,

Your point is the biggest road block in all of this. WH just stormed out of the house because we took a break from MB to try and talk.

Here it is in a nutshell.

I look at what he has done as some sort of resentment/anger-driven attack on me. There are reasons why I feel this way and I have posted them, but in short...I feel he wanted to bring me down to his level.

WH completed High School...I went as far as you can go.
WH worked for me at our business...His last name is on the door, so outsiders would "assume" he was the owner because he's the man.
WH isn't driven...I built busn from ground up...


WH used to talk about how proud he was of me, how much I had accomplished, how I was the most intelligent person, yada yada yada

Since the affair...its more along the lines of "YOUR business" and "you are so important" and "everyone needs YOU at the office"...he just talks about me with such spite...

i TRIED to explain this to him (before I read ur posts) and he said:

There is no point in talking about this anymore..but unless I (WH) admit that I hated you and did this to you intentionally (this being ruining me and my business) then you will not move past it.

And then he left...now he takes full responsbility for the PA...he just doesnt want to accept that some part of his behavior was to "put me in my place"

Sorry I don't have time to comment. Will check back later.

HBH, stop telling him this. It is an extremely disrespectful judgment. It also means, if true, that he felt undermined by you as a man, so telling him stuff like this only aggravates the problem. If he feels undermined in the way you think, the solution is to find ways to change your behavior so he doesn't feel undermined via the POJA.

WHEN YOU THINK THINGS LIKE THIS, COME HERE............. NOT TO HIM. PLEASE.

You guys seriously need the help of a coach to get you through this before you cause irrepairable harm. This is a very intense, volatile situation because of the depth of the damage done to you, HBH. If I were in your shoes, I would go for the Intensive Care program, not the do it yourself at home program. Can y'all swing a MB weekend? The next one comes in March?