I am 2 years out from D Day. We started with the book SA, because I was already on the HNHN forum trying to apply the principles to our marriage. The infidelity board was the logical place to go, and I am so very grateful for the support and information I was able to glean here. Over these last 2 years, we've made a lot of progress in the areas of affair proofing: meeting ENs, avoiding LBs, etc.

However, it has always bothered me that my H seems to have an "out" according to SA. Its been a while since I read the book, so I could be mistaken, but it seems to me that the book puts the responsibility on the BS (because he/she was not meeting ENs in order to A proof) rather than putting the responsibility fully and squarely on the back of the WS. Am I off here? Does anyone have any input on this?

In my case, my FWH says in one breath "I am responsible for the choice of the A, it is in no way your fault." But, in the other breath he'll say something like: "I was miserable in our M. If you had better met this EN or...then I wouldn't have done it." To me, this puts the blame on me even though he says otherwise. He often refers back to SA to reference how As start. I guess, IMO, I believe that ultimately, HE chose the A because of his internal weaknesses, his low self esteem, and his refusal to voice his ENs (and some of his "needs" were due to skewed thinking; she should be thinner than she was when we married if she wants to adequately meet my AS need.). It bothers me that he is essentially able to scape goat his issues by saying that I didn't meet ENs therefore he was vulnerable. What do you all think?

This is a misinterpretation of SAA. Not meeting emotional needs is the beginning of problems in a marriage, but there is no one to blame for an A except the participants of an A. THEY had poor boundaries and made poor choices; not you.

Do I blame myself to a certain exent for GO's A? Yes, but more because I allowed us to grow apart and didn't pick up on the subtle signs of the A. 20/20 hindsight can make us crazy!

We both need to work to heal our marriage, GO on his poor boundaries and not sharing his ENs with me, and me working on meeting his ENs and learning to not be a conflict avoider.

Don't allow the blame game to interfere with your healing. Talk to your DH honestly (remember O & H) about what you hear when he talks about the A. He may not mean that at all.

Each spouse is responsible for their 50% of the state of the marriage....... But the damage caused from infidelity is 100% on the shoulders of the Wayward spouse.

wonderin, I asked Dr Harley about this over on the MB weekend forum and here is what he said:

I think it's a "which came first...the chicken or the egg" argument/discussion that doesn't really serve your marriage and recovery well.

Of course, I could have been running around catering to Mrs. W's emotional needs all the time and this whole her having an affair business would likely have been averted; however, I was unhappy too, at that time, and if she wasn't catering or reciprocating by meeting my needs I would have remained vulnerable (with even more resentment due to all the extra-effort I was making) and could have easily been the one to have an affair myself.

As it really was back then, it was only a matter of time and opportunity with either one of us...unfortunately.

There is also self-doubt and times I question my actions back then. A sort of "self-blame" game which tells me I should have done this or that and I could have avoided enduring what I/we did. In hindsight, I can plainly see where I made huge mistakes and could have saved us both a lot of trouble. Further, as a man, I should have been more protective of my wife and family. So perhaps, at times, your insecurities about your actions or non-actions creep into your mind as you talk to your husband and/or read Surviving an Affair/HNHN and you were hearing, seeing or taking on "blame" unnecessarily. You are blaming yourself and that will make any BS's upset.

Surviving an Affair and His Needs/Her Needs, IMO, doesn't BLAME anyone...it nuetrally discusses the commonality of conditions precedent to affairs, through an illustrative story, but the REAL message is where to go AFTER the affair...how to survive and rebuild you marriage by restoring romantic love to the relationship.

IMO, you are not progressing towards romantic love by constantly rehashing adversarily the blame about the past. You each openly and honestly acknowledge your part in the past...worry only about YOUR side of the street, for the express purpose of making your future TOGETHER better and safer for the both of you.

I say BOTH OF YOU...for the important reason (and your husband should be listening to this) that statistically the betrayed spouse is the next most likely person to have an affair in your relationship. You BOTH need extraordinary precautions, not because his affair was your fault or his, but because you BOTH want an affair proof loving marriage of extraordinary care.

IMO, debating blame is counter-productive and a waste of time. He said he knows it's all his fault and you should trust that. You certainly can acknowledge your short-comings pre-affair and concentrate on fixing your side. Work the MB program and, as Dr. Harley indicates, the resentments over the past will fade away with time as you fall in love with your husband again.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - Mrs. W and I went to the MB weekend at approximately the two year after D-day mark. We "thought" we were recovered then...but there has been much progress since. More than we ever conceived possible at that time. I don't want you to stifle your thoughts around your husband. I really think you should be able to OPENLY discuss this specific issue but realize that there is no definitive answer (like the chicken vs. the egg thing) and get to a point where "no answer" doesn't upset you as you speak candidly and intimately with your husband about this stuff (and conclude TOGETHER, like we did eventually, it doesn't matter anymore). You are on the same marriage reconstruction team after all.

p.p.s. - "Scorekeeping", debate, adversarily discussing blame is an enemy to intimate conversation.

If Flick made that comment to me, he wouldn't have his 'F' for long.

If he had had proper boundaries in place he would not have had the affair.

Actually...the calm respectfull response to this is...

"Well dear, if I had been running around catering to your "emotional needs" maybe you wouldn't have had an affair, but then who would have stopped me from having one?"

"What were YOU doing back then to keep me from making the same mistake you did?"

"If I had had an affair...would it have been your fault?"

This is exactly where it goes round and round and NOBODY wins IF you are debating this. Discussing it, INTIMATELY...OK. Debating it is the problem as there really isn't a solution....and neither of you can ever win (unless and until it doesn't matter...then you BOTH win).

It happened.

It's over.

Where do you go from here?

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - what's great about this discussion and participating in these forums is that it is so much easier for a recovering couple to discuss these matters in the third person than it is about themselves. This thread once again brought up this discussion with Mrs. W just a few moments ago. We don't discuss specific facts nor debate details about our past as we both know it's fruitless and can lead to upset. Instead we hash it out in intimate conversation while discussing your situation, this post and the one above and find ourselves bonded discussing our marriage, our family, our past and how far we've come. There is no upset any longer and it's just pleasant conversation and a bond as we TOGETHER try to help others navigate these treacherous recovery waters.

From the sounds of it though, wonderin's FWH isn't trying to blame shift - he is saying that he is responsible for the affair - my guess is that he is very confused...This is a place that I faltered for a long while myself...Not because I wanted to blame Mr. W...I just knew what I knew about the state of the marriage pre-affair, and I very much wanted answers too! A FWS also drives themselves crazy with the WHYs...That isn't just BS territory...It's the WORST thing you've ever done in your life and you want to know HOW exactly you let it happen...It's a hard place to be - and yes, I realize that the FWS put themselves there - I'm not trying to garner sympathy for WSs at all...

Mel helped me a lot by reminding me that though unmet needs create VULNERABILITY to an affair, they don't CAUSE an affair on their own...You gotta have shoddy boundaries and opportunity too...

In my opinion, Mr. W's post was spot on...It is a crazy making process to try and divvy up blame...It's an intimacy killer and an exercise in futility...Perhaps the most important part of his post is the TEAM element...When you guys have these discussions, be sure that you are doing so from a "this is our marriage - you and me against the world" perspective...The adversarial "Well YOU did THIS, and I wasn't doing anything like THAT" will lead to arguments 100% of the time...That is shooting yourselves in the "recovery foot"...

Mrs. W

Wonderin, I was just wondering how you were doing~!

I want to fill people in. Wonderin's husband is a pilot who likes his women thin and skanky. His wife, a good Christian woman, is about 10 lbs more than he would like.

THIS IS THE ONLY THING SHE DOES TO " CAUSE HIM TO GO TO ANOTHER WOMAN"!

He is crazy and wrong and she is too weak and enabling to see what a creep he is.

We went over and over this with her. I bet even if she were to get very thin, like he likes, and skanky, which he prefers also,,,,,he would STILL NOT WANT HER AS MUCH AS HIS SKANK STEWARDESSES!!!!

Hereafter Wonderin's husband shall be referred to as Cpt. Quagmire.

Wonderin, your FWH still has a lot of ground to cover, but it seems like he's making a LITTLE progress.

Even if your characterisation of her pre-D day marriage is correct, you have no basis on which to say that this is how either wonderin3 or her H are now.

My reading of your posts two years ago are that you thought that wonderin should end this marriage. You seemed to taunt her for wanting to rebuild, both when her weight was the only known problem, and when she discovered the affair.

I do hope you are not going to track wonderin3's posts now that she has come back, reiterating your view that she is weak and her H wants skinny skanky women. You are being unkind.

Pre-A issues may be both parties' responsibility but I really do think we have to be cautious in throwing out the 50-50 assessment. In many cases , this is not true , as one party is much ore responsible for the problems.
I have read that , typically, it is the Ws that has caused most of the pre-A problems. This makes sense to me, as the decison to have an affair demosntrates the WS having poor communication skills, poor boundaries, a lack of integrity and a lack of empathy. Lack of these qualities , surely, causes problems in a marrige Pre-A.
I beleive tyhat many BSs often feel that if anyone should have justification for an affair by way of having unment needs and a deficient partner, it would be the BS.

The only mantra a WS needs to repeat with regards to the "why" of his or her affair is:

I was completely wrong, I made a terrible choice, I am responsible for my choices

This should never be followed by a "but" of any kind...ever

I loved that movie. Hope there is a sequel.

Not so typical Z. I can attest that in MY marriage, we were both responsible for the state Pre-A. I had my issue's, H had his. I find this to more typical around here...(the Wondering's, Lil, Queenie, TMTS, are a few that I know of....)

H HAD communicated to me his dissatisfaction NUMEROUS times. Not always in the best of ways, sure, but yet it was done. In fact, H had written me a loving letter prior to Dday (years prior, but yet it was done...). Me, I was in the "you-need-to-love-me-unconditionally-for-who-I-am-camp".....


H did have these though...SUPER SHODDY boundaries...


Nope, H had integrity. He misplaced it and eschewed it for the A though....


Nope, this was misplaced as well. It was after Dday, that this caused his great conflict in Affairland though.....but once he was addicted, it was just too hard to get away from it......

Many drug addicts don't like being chained to their prisons, but once the high has been experienced, it is hard to shake the demon.....

I have absolutely no doubt that I myself could have gotten caught up in an affair, given the right circumstances. I had better boundaries than H, but after all that I have learned, I can see how easy it can/does happen....

not2fun

Not2, I do not question that y assertion was not applicable to your H. However, in my reading, I have come across studies that claim to reach the conclusion that , typically, it is the WS who,pre-A, is bringing way less to the marriage in terms of investing.
I wonder if you had your own dissatisfactions in the marriage, pre-A. If so, what is it about you that did not allow you to cheat? Don't you think your H's decision says something about his limitations as compared to your own?

ut oh, Bubbles is off her leash today!

I love dat gal!